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| 18:01 |
proller |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11910 - 3 months of nothing! |
| 18:03 |
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| 18:30 |
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| 18:41 |
v-rob |
Any thoughts on whether we're having that core dev meeting soon? |
| 18:45 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh, my, goodness. Can I join? |
| 18:48 |
rubenwardy |
it's public in the channel |
| 18:48 |
rubenwardy |
How about this Saturday? |
| 18:48 |
rubenwardy |
v-rob: make sure to add things to the agenda if there's something you want to discuss |
| 18:48 |
rubenwardy |
so we don't forget |
| 18:48 |
rubenwardy |
!dev Meetings |
| 18:48 |
ShadowBot |
Meetings - Minetest Developer Wiki -- http://dev.minetest.net/Meetings |
| 18:48 |
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| 18:50 |
v-rob |
I'm open Saturday, so that's good for me |
| 18:51 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> When will 32 bit builds be deprecated? |
| 18:54 |
v-rob |
Will they? I've never heard anything about that |
| 19:00 |
ROllerozxa |
why should they be deprecated? |
| 19:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> macos, ubuntu, and windows (latest versions) all dont even have 32 bit OS versions anymore. that said, no reason to drop support unless there is some advantage to it |
| 19:04 |
erlehmann |
what advantage should there even be? |
| 19:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> code cleanup probably? dunno. only outlier is andriod which appears to still support 32bit, but isnt very prevalent |
| 19:06 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> i don't think we should drop android support |
| 19:06 |
MTDiscord |
<savilli> it's quite popular |
| 19:07 |
erlehmann |
i'd be very sceptical of claims that writing non-portable code is “code cleanup” |
| 19:07 |
erlehmann |
after all. minetest doesn't just run on x86 and x86_64 |
| 19:08 |
ROllerozxa |
how would dropping 32-bit windows binaries lead to code cleanups? |
| 19:08 |
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| 19:09 |
ROllerozxa |
only thing it would mean is one less build for each release |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> 10% of andriod is 32bit in 2019, or so a quick google says |
| 19:09 |
v-rob |
I don't think any code would change at all, really |
| 19:10 |
ROllerozxa |
keep also in mind minetest android arm64 builds are rather unstable, which is why the 32-bit armeabi-v7a builds are still recommended |
| 19:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> yeah, doesnt the play store force 64bit builds on 64bit devices tho? |
| 19:11 |
erlehmann |
also using 32bit binaries on 64bit systems can give you some small performance boost IIRC |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
Doubt |
| 19:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> doubt |
| 19:12 |
v-rob |
Anyhow, we still support Windows below 11, so it's not like 32-bit has disappeared. I'm pretty sure most Linuxes still support 32-bit. |
| 19:12 |
v-rob |
Although I'm no Linux user myself. |
| 19:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> seems unlikely any ubunutu based distros will offer 32bit versions |
| 19:13 |
ROllerozxa |
erlehmann: really? I'd expect the opposite to be the case |
| 19:13 |
erlehmann |
„ubuntu based” lol |
| 19:13 |
Krock |
32-bit versions are becoming difficult to get |
| 19:13 |
erlehmann |
usually stuff is debian-based, not ubuntu-based |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
I don't necessarily think there's a reason to deprecate or drop support for 32bit, but we could not produce official builds or make them less prioritised on the website |
| 19:14 |
rubenwardy |
If we had an installer, we could potentially make it 32bit and then install the right version based on the system, which would clean up the website UI for Windows |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> pop os, mint, elementary os. some big ubuntu based ones |
| 19:14 |
v-rob |
Well, Ubuntu isn't everything. |
| 19:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> never said it was |
| 19:15 |
v-rob |
Where is our minimum supported OS stuff? |
| 19:16 |
v-rob |
I can find stuff on the wiki, but it says XP is still supported, which is patently false (I've tried it myself :) ) |
| 19:16 |
Krock |
Minetest 5.0.0 did work on XP. Don't know what's changed since then. |
| 19:17 |
v-rob |
I think it works up to 5.2.0, or maybe it was 5.3.0 |
| 19:17 |
ROllerozxa |
minimum supported windows version seems to be windows 8, from looking at the download page |
| 19:17 |
v-rob |
Oh, so it does. I'm willing to bet Windows 7 still works, though |
| 19:18 |
v-rob |
I like how we don't even officially support Windows 11 =P |
| 19:18 |
ROllerozxa |
ah, the joys of explicitly listing versions instead of just being like "windows 8+" |
| 19:19 |
rubenwardy |
Supported doesn't mean works |
| 19:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ^minetest on windows in a nutshell |
| 19:19 |
rubenwardy |
Something can work but not be supported, or can be supported and not work. Supported just means that we'll accept issues, fix things, and provide help |
| 19:20 |
v-rob |
True |
| 19:21 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy Jonathon, i do not know, but if pointers are twice the size, doesn't that imply that your object code is larger and your instruction cache and memory bandwith is effectively smaller? |
| 19:21 |
erlehmann |
linux has the x32 ABI for that reason |
| 19:22 |
erlehmann |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI |
| 19:22 |
v-rob |
Anyhow, we probably don't need to change how we do anything about 32-bit builds unless there's anything significant that it would do for us. |
| 19:22 |
erlehmann |
> It allows programs to take advantage of the benefits of x86-64 instruction set (larger number of CPU registers, better floating-point performance, faster position-independent code, shared libraries, function parameters passed via registers, faster syscall instruction) while using 32-bit pointers and thus avoiding the overhead of 64-bit pointers. |
| 19:22 |
erlehmann |
> The best results during testing were with the 181.mcf SPEC CPU 2000 benchmark, in which the x32 ABI version was 40% faster than the x86-64 version.[3][4] On average, x32 is 5–8% faster on the SPEC CPU integer benchmarks compared to x86-64. |
| 19:23 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy Jonathon what do you say to that? |
| 19:23 |
v-rob |
Ooh, pointer size optimizations. What is this, DOS with different compile-time memory models? :D |
| 19:24 |
v-rob |
Still, 32-bit builds for Minetest exclusively use the x86 instruction set, no mixmatch between x86_64 and 32-bit pointers |
| 19:24 |
erlehmann |
what i'm saying is, it depends on the workload. you get a penalty for the pointer size and you need to offset it somehow. |
| 19:25 |
erlehmann |
which you can do, of course, by taking advantage of lots of 64 bit math or so. or needing more than 4GB RAM per process? |
| 19:25 |
erlehmann |
as always, benchmark. |
| 19:25 |
v-rob |
32-bit might be faster, and 64-bit might be faster. I'd guess that it's largely system and processor dependent. |
| 19:34 |
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| 21:24 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh my God I'm sorry for starting this |
| 21:24 |
erlehmann |
jordan4ibanez so why did you ask in the first place, like what was the thought behind it? |
| 21:27 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Looking into the code clauses of if aarch64 in one of the files thinking that, wow that's going to be 98% of the time, why is this even still a thing? |
| 21:27 |
erlehmann |
uh, what? |
| 21:28 |
erlehmann |
no idea how you get to 2% of users who have an aarch64 system, but if you wanna drop support for that, i'm pretty sure some mac users will be upset lol |
| 21:28 |
erlehmann |
and also some reform2 users |
| 21:41 |
v-rob |
How in the _world_ do you log into the dev wiki? I never got any email to set my initial password, and attempts to reset the password results in no emails either. Maybe the wrong email got used somehow? I don't know... |
| 21:42 |
rubenwardy |
you should have received an email, if not it'll be because celeron55's server is broken |
| 21:43 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> No, I meant the inverse of what you're saying, aarch32, win32, Linux 32, check etc etc etc |
| 21:48 |
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