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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2022-02-08

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Time Nick Message
00:00 erlehmann MisterE ok. but if i can not contribute stuff to it that has been useful to debug things, i'll just treat it as if it was.
00:02 erlehmann (i.e. if i get this merged, i make more devtest stuff. if not, i do not.)
00:09 rubenwardy Has been doesn't mean will be
00:10 rubenwardy Just pointing out the flaw in that logic, I haven't actually looked into that PR
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00:34 erlehmann rubenwardy if you have any questions about my PR, pls ask. the only improvement i could think of right now is actually generating the textures in the engine and that would mean a) consolidating all the tga_encoder mod variants into one that can do all kinds of textures b) convincing ppl it is a good idea (which i'd like to avoid rn)
00:35 erlehmann s/in the engine/in devtest/g
00:46 MTDiscord <LandarVargan> Is it possible for updateAnimation() to get called twice here? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/be05c9022d8b6eff63f477bc8ca52efd7d631cb6/src/client/content_cao.cpp#L1070-L1088
00:48 MTDiscord <LandarVargan> Ah I guess not
00:53 MTDiscord <LandarVargan> I think I'm having an issue with updateAnimation() not being called because I force set a non-local animation but still trigger the local animation in the background, and keep triggering it until after my alien animation finishes, so things like frame_loop persist across and mess the local animation up
00:53 MTDiscord <LandarVargan> Relevant(?) c++: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/be05c9022d8b6eff63f477bc8ca52efd7d631cb6/src/client/content_cao.cpp#L1070-L1088
00:54 MTDiscord <Jonathon> just set the local animations to empty tables to use only serverside ones
00:54 MTDiscord <LandarVargan> This is what I mean by 'force-set' https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/a840ac0a4d3db935b20ce6c6259795fbe263fefe/mods/player_api/api.lua#L134-L135
00:54 MTDiscord <LandarVargan> It would be nice if I could switch between serverside and local animations
00:55 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i really dont see why you need local ones at all given how limiting they are
00:56 MTDiscord <LandarVargan> No clientside delay when playing animations that do fit the local limits
00:56 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i mean, you could switch back and forth by disabling and enabling them, but thats a massive hack
00:57 MTDiscord <LandarVargan> That is what I am doing, and it has a problem as described above
00:57 MTDiscord <Jonathon> personally i dont think animations client side is that big of a deal given everything there reacting to is serverside anyways, but 🤷
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01:05 erlehmann Jonathon having some stuff predicted clientside is a massive boon to ppl playing with lag. game authors often underestimate how playable minetest can be under lag conditions if a game gets a few things right.
01:06 erlehmann (this is btw why i want nodes with associated formspecs in the meta, and i believe wuzzy mentioned those as well once)
01:08 MTDiscord <Jonathon> formspec meta can burn in its current implementation
01:08 MTDiscord <Jonathon> formspecs in the node def would be a much better idea
01:11 erlehmann oh yeah sorry
01:11 erlehmann node def
01:12 erlehmann i have been making formspec meta stuff and it sucks
01:13 MTDiscord <MisterE> Well, the node def can't change, and I think that some nodes need formspecs to be able to change
01:13 MTDiscord <Jonathon> yes, a node def can change
01:13 MTDiscord <MisterE> For all nodes
01:14 MTDiscord <Jonathon> there still is show_formspec, and formspec in node def is way better than meta trash because you dont have to waste abm/lbm overhead to update it
01:14 MTDiscord <MisterE> But if I need one store node to change its formspec, while all the other remain the same id need a workaround.with your implementation
01:15 MTDiscord <MisterE> Also theres node time
01:15 erlehmann to give a real life example: in mineclonia we had some chests and ideally they should not be able to open if something blocks the top.
01:16 erlehmann if i could just switch chest for chest_blocked and not do meta stuff, i'd be happier
01:16 erlehmann especially since those formspecs sometimes need updating
01:16 MTDiscord <MisterE> You could... but meta makes the most sense
01:16 MTDiscord <Jonathon> swapping the node is terrible, but yeah, formspec meta updating is terible
01:16 MTDiscord <MisterE> Ibk why
01:17 MTDiscord <MisterE> Node meta is a reasonable system
01:17 MTDiscord <Jonathon> no, it doesnt, given its trash to update, trash to handle recieve fields, etc
01:17 erlehmann you can end up with crap meta. we had chests of those types that were not opening anymore because some fun-hater removed the meta.
01:17 MTDiscord <MisterE> Check your meta
01:17 erlehmann also everything involving swap_node becomes weird
01:18 erlehmann like i have made water with inventory
01:18 MTDiscord <Jonathon> node meta concept is fine, using it for formspecs is terrible
01:18 MTDiscord <Jonathon> sounds like you cant read documentation erlehmann
01:18 MTDiscord <MisterE> You enjoy saying this type o thing :P
01:18 MTDiscord <Jonathon>  * `minetest.swap_node(pos, node)`     * Set node at position, but don't remove metadata
01:18 erlehmann that's exactly what i'm getting at
01:19 MTDiscord <Jonathon> yeah, you cant read
01:19 erlehmann i read that and this is how i made water with inventory
01:19 MTDiscord <Jonathon> great, then stop complaining
01:19 erlehmann i think your mistake is assuming i made it in my own mod or something
01:20 MTDiscord <Jonathon> "also everything involving swap_node becomes weird" && "like i have made water with inventory" sounds like complaints
01:20 erlehmann also stop being rude pls
01:20 erlehmann the thing is that if i had formspec in node def, i could do swapping without thinking of meta formspecs
01:21 erlehmann also, just to spell it out: corrupting metadata leads to fun stuff, of which most of it is crashes or dupes
01:21 MTDiscord <Jonathon> sounds like misbehaving mods, which really isnt mte fault
01:21 MTDiscord <MisterE> That sounds like its time to fork the mod then :|
01:22 erlehmann MisterE i may have already done so ^^
01:22 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also, this is really #minetest content
01:22 erlehmann look, this is about formspec in node def.
01:22 erlehmann which is an engine thing, bc it does not yet exist, right?
01:22 MTDiscord <Jonathon> if where back on topic, than yeah
01:23 erlehmann yeah let's do topic instead of going the “oh all the mods you manage to glitch are crap”
01:23 erlehmann so what drawbacks would it have to switch nodes? you said that
01:23 erlehmann i mean it's super easy
01:23 erlehmann but how is it terrible
01:23 MTDiscord <Jonathon> anyways, node def based formspecs are in sfan 5 todo
01:23 erlehmann good!
01:23 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or so they have said
01:23 erlehmann i'll just wait and shut up then
01:24 erlehmann good night
01:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> niht
01:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> *night
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08:29 MTDiscord <luatic> please reopen #11694
08:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11694 -- View bobbing breaks get_look_dir while walking
08:34 erlehmann oof this should really have been separate commits, whoever squashed this? o.0 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/0d345dc1bd56068b8d40f8ff712a9263c6ff7517
08:35 erlehmann well, doesn't matter who
08:35 erlehmann but oof
08:37 MTDiscord <luatic> Why separate commits? It's a single, simple fix.
08:37 MTDiscord <luatic> ah, you mean the cleanup
08:37 erlehmann because you have 1 line of fix and like >90% of distracting dead code removal
08:38 MTDiscord <luatic> True
08:38 erlehmann ok i saw it, it originally was 2 commits. squash merge is trash again.
08:38 erlehmann not your fault ig, sorry for bringing it up
09:34 rubenwardy Luatic: don't include "fixes #“ if it doesn't fix it, even if prefixed by partially, because GitHub will still close it
09:34 MTDiscord <luatic> oh
09:39 erlehmann gitea has the same thing and it can be disabled
09:39 erlehmann i strongly suggest to disable it wherever i see it, bc i have seen too many issues closed accidentally
10:11 rubenwardy nah, it's super useful
10:11 rubenwardy just need to take care to check the issues
10:12 erlehmann oh, i think it can't be disabled anyway
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10:13 erlehmann also “note that this commit does not fix #1234” commit messages, cursed
10:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1234 -- Client side caching of mapblocks
10:19 rubenwardy Try "Partial fix for #1234" in future
10:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1234 -- Client side caching of mapblocks
10:19 rubenwardy or "Part of #1234"
10:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1234 -- Client side caching of mapblocks
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15:02 hallowarniemalsh does anyone know an easy way to detect block/node updates? (For a node to change if the conditions are given, register_abm is too slow for me)
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16:16 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Rubenwardy has brought up the need for a markdown parsing ability to be brought to minetest engine to support CDB in the main menu, and for general in game documentation. I'm looking at a performant C library with a single header and c source file.   If I do all the work to integrate this into MTE so that the main menu and in game lua API can call a single function: parse_markdown(string, table_of_function_callbacks) which returns a
16:16 MTDiscord valid hypertext element body string for a formspec to render, does that have a decent likelihood of getting merged?
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16:43 Calinou #JustMinetestThings :(
16:46 rubenwardy I'd support such a PR
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17:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> V-Rob or v-rob, would you also support such a PR?
17:46 erlehmann exe_virus why a c library when you could write it in lua and not risk that much additional attack surface?
17:47 rubenwardy because you'd have to write it
17:47 erlehmann i am talking out of my ass here obv, but i am pretty sune pure lua markdown parsing libraries exist
17:48 rubenwardy with lots of deps and... C code
17:49 rubenwardy lpeg, for example, has C code
17:49 erlehmann i will now figure out which deps this have that i do not see https://github.com/mpeterv/markdown
17:50 rubenwardy only supports outputting to HTML
17:50 erlehmann uh, markdown in general is a search-replace to html. it does not have an AST.
17:50 rubenwardy you could modify that though
17:51 erlehmann it's only about 1200 lines, i bet that's manageable
17:51 rubenwardy well, something to look into exe_virus
17:51 rubenwardy I personally haven't looked at the options
17:51 erlehmann > Does a simple tokenization of html data. Returns the data as a list of tokens. Each token is a table with a type field (which is either "tag" or "text") and a text field (which contains the original token data).
17:52 erlehmann hey, you can turn that into whatever you want pretty easily
17:52 rubenwardy that sounds good
17:52 rubenwardy exe_virus: what Lua libraries did you consider?
17:53 erlehmann rubenwardy i do not know exactly how you think markdown should work for your use case, but since md is defined in terms of search-replace via HTML, ig HTML is always in intermediate step btw
17:53 rubenwardy yeah, I know how markdown works
17:54 erlehmann yeah but maybe cdb flavored markdown is different
17:54 erlehmann or should be different, i am not designing the feature after all
17:54 erlehmann (you are ig)
17:54 rubenwardy we'll either need to convert straight to hypertext, or with HTML as an intermediary.    I'm not against not allowing HTML in markdown, if that makes it easier
17:55 rubenwardy HTML as an intermediary is much more correct, but requires an XML parser
17:55 erlehmann tbh letting cdb return hypertext for minetest consumption is not an option?
17:55 erlehmann (if so, why?)
17:55 rubenwardy I wondered this, but work needs to be done in any case and having a Minetest API would be nice
17:58 erlehmann from a flexibility POV you have less options if you directly put it in minetest
17:59 erlehmann but i am ofc biased, coming from a backend dev standpoint
18:04 sfan5 just because cdb could use it doesn't mean the engine should have native markdown support
18:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The main menu, at least, needs some way to be able to display the same formatting, structure, emphasis, etc as is used in CDB long-descriptions, in order to be able to make the main menu content browser more useful for users without having to run a separate browser on the side, which really breaks the workflow.
18:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Being able to parse the markdown seems like ONE possible way to achieve that.
18:10 sfan5 sure, I'm just questioning the need to add this to the API
18:12 erlehmann yeah, me too. especially since there are *probably* other constraints for literally everything that is not cdb.
18:14 sfan5 merging #12037, #12052, #12050, #12055 soon
18:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> tbh sometimes I wonder if it would make more sense to just build a main menu / launcher type thing as a completely separate program from minetest and reduce our reliance on the whole main menu formspec thing...
18:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12037 -- Send HUD flags only if changed by appgurueu
18:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12052 -- Noise params serialization fixup by Gael-de-Sailly
18:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12050 -- (no squash) Update MinGW toolchain by sfan5
18:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12055 -- Increase max objects per block defaults by appgurueu
18:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> only major problem I see with the "external launcher" thing is the mess that it would be on mobile platform(s).
18:16 Pexin isnt the point of the in-menu mod descriptions to be brief, and provide a weblink for users who want an expanded description?
18:16 erlehmann that reminds me that i wanted to extend https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12037 so that in debug compilation mode there are warnings for duplicate HUD flags (because in many cases these are not only sent often, but the calculation can be skipped entirely). anyone interested in that?
18:16 erlehmann i mean i'll obv make a separate PR
18:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> We want brief descriptions, yes.  The weblink option though is sort of a hack, since we lose a lot of control over the UX at that point, and whether opening up a browser for a user is a smooth experience or a train wreck is something that we'll end up getting blamed for regardless of whether there's anything we can actually do about it.
18:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> We could make it just reliably and directly show the user a "detail" page with more detail right in the content screens without breaking them out of the MT menu workflow.  I guess it's just a question of how complicated that has to be to make it work.
18:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If we need to lock things down to only a smallish subset of features, I could accept that.  Structured things, like bulleted/numbered lists and headings I'd want.  Also some emphasis like bold/italics preferably.
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18:26 erlehmann most other things i know (pango markup, xmpp etc.) solve this with a *very* limited html subset, not markdown
18:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> IIRC we used to have an XML parser that could be used to parse limited-subset xhtml, but that went away, and we'd have to reintroduce it to go that route ... but it might not be a problem to have CDB just convert MD to HTML before sending it to MT...
18:32 MTDiscord <Jonathon> except core devs in the past have been anti html in the engine, see formspecs
18:33 rubenwardy we'd use hypertext
18:34 rubenwardy well, If the consensus is to not have markdown support in the engine just for CDB, then it'll have to be implemented in the backend
18:34 rubenwardy at least you wouldn't have to find a markdown parser, just a library to do tree walking
18:34 sfan5 just to be clear my opinion is that it shouldn't be part of the api
18:34 rubenwardy ok
18:34 sfan5 putting some lua code in builtin/mainmenu is totally fine
18:34 rubenwardy ah
18:35 rubenwardy idk, if the code exists in minetest then it's nice to make it available
18:35 MTDiscord <Jonathon> so locking away more things in the main menu?
18:36 rubenwardy minetest.convert_markdown_to_hypertext(md)   -- Returns a best-effort representation of the markdown in hypertext format. Exact output may change between versions
18:37 sfan5 I don't want to deal with feature requests or backward compat whining for that hypothetical API
18:37 sfan5 maybe you do
18:37 MTDiscord <Jonathon> fair point
18:39 rubenwardy well, hypertext is already experimental and broken
18:44 erlehmann “if the code exists in minetest then it's nice to make it available” true, but only if it is useful and does not create headaches.
18:44 erlehmann for once i fully agree with sfan5 here. there is exactly one (1) prospective API user.
18:45 erlehmann (yet)
18:45 rubenwardy I'd have used in in conquer
18:45 erlehmann elaborate?
18:45 rubenwardy Conquer has help documentation. Currently it's duplicated in markdown and hypertext
18:46 rubenwardy honestly, I think I'm just learning towards the backend rendering it
18:46 rubenwardy less hassle
18:46 erlehmann at the risk of having that discussion again (please not), don't chose markdown if you want something that you want to support for more use cases than your own.
18:46 erlehmann yes
18:46 erlehmann also that way you can do upgrades
18:46 erlehmann like render it differently
18:48 rubenwardy and you don't have to replicate all the same markdown extensions, you just need to deal with HTML -> Hypertext
19:10 erlehmann anyone knows how much memory minetest actually leaks when you join a world repeatedly? i do that in testing and i can only do it a few times before the OOM killer kicks in and murders the process.
19:11 erlehmann (i use earlyoom to make my computer not slow to a crawl)
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20:43 MTDiscord <exe_virus> So on the subject of other libraries, the most compliant was lunamark
20:43 MTDiscord <exe_virus> For markdown parsing.
20:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> I tried other smaller ones that go straight to html, and all were woefully untested and mediocre implementations. No better than my direct markdown to formspec hypertext mod
20:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> When I used lunamark, it wanted to use lpeg, so I found a Lua only lpeg, but that needed utf-8, so I found a Lua only utf-8 polyfill for Lua 5.1
20:45 sfan5 is markdown actually that hard? you have links, bullet points, headings, images maybe and what else?
20:45 MTDiscord <exe_virus> But all those combined, while they work, create all sorts of bugs, because of course they're not as good as the real thing.
20:45 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Yeah markdown is about 500 example corner cases.
20:45 sfan5 well markdown is also a bad format
20:45 sfan5 but the basics should be simple
20:45 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Commonmark has a spec nowadays, but it's hard. Especially when you bring in GitHub tables.
20:46 MTDiscord <exe_virus> That's why I'm trying to use md4c, which is a small header + single source file implementation
20:46 MTDiscord <exe_virus> That's my goal right now because it's the least buggy, fastest parsing, and allows us to extend the output with Lua in built-in
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20:47 MTDiscord <exe_virus> I.e. no html middle man, and no ast construction
20:48 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Either way, if you all don't want to go the most supported route that's fine, but seeing as it has no dependencies and I know I can work this into our codebase in a straightforward sane way, that is where I'd like to out my efforts.
20:49 erlehmann sfan5 that markdown is “one” “simple” format is propaganda by ppl who use whatever dialect they favor (usually github markdown, gitlab markdown, pandoc markdown or SO markdown)
20:49 erlehmann SO = stack overflow btw
20:51 erlehmann does anyone have any idea how to track memory allocations in minetest at runtime? i have encountered a pretty allocation behaviour case, where minetest allocates memory until it either can't (then it frees it or, sometimes, crashes) or is killed by earlyoom
20:51 sfan5 you know valgrind right
20:51 erlehmann i do not, but is it the right tool?
20:52 erlehmann i basically wanna know what the mod does to provoke the engine into this
20:52 erlehmann i'll look into valgrind
20:52 erlehmann thx
20:54 v-rob The two problems I see with including markdown in the engine is a) Markdown has as many flavors as Linux has distros and b) hypertext kind of really sucks in its current form, and I want to downplay it rather than cement it further into our API.
20:55 v-rob If we do add some Markdown API at some point, please make sure the parser understands UTF-8.
20:55 MTDiscord <Jonathon> how is your "superior formspec replacement" coming along anyways?
20:56 v-rob I didn't say plan to plan a Markdown API for the replacement, just not to plan it for hypertext
20:57 v-rob There is a note in the docs stating that everything in hypertext is experimental and subject to change
20:57 v-rob But to answer the question, slow but progressing
20:57 erlehmann can we look at your progress somewhere?
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20:58 v-rob I haven't put it on GitHub yet. There's nothing to see but code anyway.
20:58 erlehmann well, i am interested in the code
20:59 v-rob Mostly Unicode stuff, and I have no guarantee if it's working properly yet until I write code for displaying it to the screen.
21:01 v-rob I'll try to hack the code into a state where it actually compiles, and then I'll dump it on GitHub for your enjoyment.
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21:37 MTDiscord <luatic> v-rob: I'd say the main problem is not leveraging Lua here, but instead forcing the modders to do the string building themselves
21:38 MTDiscord <luatic> A Lua/JSON-ish data structure - perhaps paired with some sugar - should be used to represent formspecs, but that'll require a FS revamp, or at least engine-provided string builders
21:38 MTDiscord <luatic> Texture modifiers need the same
21:39 v-rob Nope, formspecs are getting trashed.
21:39 v-rob It's going to be a whole different backend and frontend, with formspecs existing via a compatibility parser.
21:40 v-rob Formspecs are entirely unsalvageable, as I discovered in the past when trying to refactor the code.
21:43 v-rob Irrlicht + build-as-you-parse formspec making + totally garbage code + everything intertwined with everything else = It's better to rewrite than try to salvage, and probably easier as well.
21:45 MTDiscord <luatic> Hmm indeed, but that rewrite might take a while
21:46 MTDiscord <luatic> It'll also smoothen the transition if we get a string building API out and deprecate doing the string building yourself before we have a full new backend ready
21:56 erlehmann build-as-you-parse is garbage most of the time
21:56 erlehmann full recognition before processing!
21:57 MTDiscord <luatic> meh, building on the go can be fine as long as your parser is still formal enough
21:57 erlehmann luatic what exactly would a string building API be?
21:57 erlehmann luatic true, but it is unsafe at any speed *most* of the time.
21:57 MTDiscord <luatic> many options, but basically you pass it a table structure (AST) and you get out a string
21:58 erlehmann did you build something like that for one of your mods?
21:58 erlehmann (if not, why not? if yes, pls show)
21:59 MTDiscord <luatic> so something like fs = minetest.formspec and then fs(fs.Container{fs.Button{pos = {...}, size = {...}, label = {}}})
21:59 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: I usually do separate parsing and processing, but I'm pretty sure Lua emits bytecode in one go
22:07 MTDiscord <exe_virus> right, lua doesn't care.  v-rob: yeah the idea here is to bring in a markdown parser (that absolutely supports utf-8), that is adjustable to different flavors (you can toggle on table support, latex support, or about 15 others, but we really only need tables I suspect), and then feed all of it's "begin header, end header, start paragraph, end paragraph, etc" callbacks to lua for adjutable output.   The idea is for now to expect a
22:07 MTDiscord lua-side table of function callbacks, and each would return the resulting string to concat together to generate the formatted output. Then we can override those callbacks as needed to support whatever gui backend/frontend we want
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22:08 MTDiscord1 <luatic> the current Lua-only options at least seem rather messy to me, especially if they are made to use polyfills like lulpeg
22:09 MTDiscord1 <luatic> I also agree with erlehmann's overall criticism of MD
22:09 MTDiscord1 <luatic> on the other hand, CDB does use it and we do want to be able to display the readmes
22:09 MTDiscord1 <luatic> what would be wrong with CDB sending hypertext to MT clients?
22:10 MTDiscord1 <luatic> (or HTML, or any other easily parsable non-MD format)
22:10 MTDiscord1 <exe_virus> a lot of people like using markdown, that's the thinking, and no a lua only solution in 5.1 is unlikely to succeed due to non-native utf-8 support
22:10 MTDiscord1 <exe_virus> we can't render html with minetest, that's why
22:11 MTDiscord1 <luatic> then those people can see for themselves which parser to drag in
22:11 MTDiscord1 <exe_virus> those people? I am one of those, there are about 20 others that like markdown2formspec
22:11 MTDiscord1 <luatic> we can convert HTML to hypertext though
22:11 MTDiscord1 <exe_virus> medicore, prone to breakage
22:12 MTDiscord1 <exe_virus> same problem as parsing markdown
22:12 MTDiscord1 <luatic> and that's perfectly fine, I'm not criticizing md2fs
22:12 MTDiscord1 <exe_virus> I am, it sucks
22:12 MTDiscord1 <exe_virus> I want to use a good lib
22:12 MTDiscord1 <luatic> heh
22:12 MTDiscord <luatic> the real issue is the poor lib support overall
22:12 MTDiscord <luatic> modders have to constantly rewrite everything in Lua
22:12 MTDiscord <luatic> I mean, I do like rewriting stuff in Lua
22:12 MTDiscord <exe_virus> 😉
22:12 MTDiscord <luatic> but sometimes having a lib would be neat
22:13 MTDiscord <luatic> yet bundling all libs with MT is even worse than bloating modlib
22:13 MTDiscord <exe_virus> still my favorite lib, I've done this a few times in c++, and have seen some really bad parser.  https://github.com/mity/md4c
22:13 MTDiscord <exe_virus> ideally, an engine should** have a lot of libs
22:14 MTDiscord <exe_virus> support for lots of 3d formats, texure formats, etc.
22:14 MTDiscord <exe_virus> gdal for heightmaps even haha
22:15 MTDiscord <exe_virus> opus, midi, libmodplug
22:15 MTDiscord <exe_virus> various shader styles ; )
22:16 MTDiscord <exe_virus> input device libs
22:16 v-rob joined #minetest-dev
22:29 v-rob exe_virus: A genericized Markdown parser that can apply to more than just hypertext sounds much better
22:30 erlehmann <exe_virus> support for lots of 3d formats, texure formats, etc.
22:30 erlehmann hahaha, that ship has sailed (for good measure, parsers are attack surface)
22:31 erlehmann format support should be extended, but based on needs, not on “throw in a random format”
22:32 erlehmann same for API support, btw.
22:32 erlehmann knee-jerk reactions to people's demands rarely make for a good API
22:33 MTDiscord <Jonathon> so your implying to not listen to you?
22:34 MTDiscord <exe_virus> lol, don't start that conversation. No there's been decent desire for markdown support
22:34 MTDiscord <exe_virus> technically it could be handled completely server side with insecure mods, but that's a horrible route to go
22:35 MTDiscord <exe_virus> parsers are absolutely an attack surface and we have some of the worst parsers and formats already, so might as well get modern if we're going to be mediocre about security
22:37 MTDiscord <exe_virus> I agree random format is bad, but I also agree that our entire codebase is currently well acquainted with markdown, via lua_api.txt, via every readme.md, our use of git, github, gitlab, notabug, etc. 99% of our current documentation lives in markdown land, I bet even the modding book is markdown on the backend.
22:43 MTDiscord <exe_virus> anyways, thanks for the support v-rob, I will work on that PR and see if I can get that made this week. Heck, might even record it and make a "how to contribute to Minetest Engine" video, so people on windows are less daunted by it. First, though, I gotta talk to Josiah about how we prefer to include two files....
22:43 SOMBRIO joined #minetest-dev
23:56 erlehmann engine question: if i change a mapblock a lot, could it cause runaway memory issues?
23:56 erlehmann in particular, i am having lots of fire and after like 20 or 30 minutes, minetest eats RAM like candy and starts lagging
23:56 erlehmann even in singlenode world where the fire can't go anywhere
23:57 rubenwardy v-rob: I'm not convinced on formspecs as a compatibility parser, would be better to just keep the formspec around, frozen
23:57 v-rob It may turn out that way. A compatibility parser would be a nightmare to get right after all.
23:58 rubenwardy exe_virus: if markdown isn't  being added to the API, then it makes more sense for the ContentDB backend to do it - as you can use the exact same markdown flavour
23:58 v-rob And if the slightest backwards compatibility got broken, I'd get a bunch of erlehmanns yelling at me :)
23:58 rubenwardy v-rob: yeah exactly, writing compat code to emulate on a new GUI system will be a huge pain
23:59 erlehmann v-rob just tell them to use a cheat client to show their own formspecs ^^
23:59 rubenwardy I mean, you could do this in stages if you wanted to completely remove the Irr GUI
23:59 rubenwardy so start by freezing formspecs, and keeping the old code
23:59 erlehmann i think it is limiting to have to map everything from formspec anyway
23:59 rubenwardy then in 6.0, replace with a compat/emulation layer which uses the new GUI
23:59 erlehmann what if you can not do it, bc the new layout system is different
23:59 erlehmann constraint based for example

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