| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
kilbith |
https://github.com/zaki/irrlicht/commit/fd155bead |
| 00:00 |
sfan5 |
that's from 2019 |
| 00:00 |
kilbith |
but ogl-es last commit stops at May 2019 |
| 00:00 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/tree/svn-trunk https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/tree/svn-ogl-es < up-to-date |
| 00:01 |
kilbith |
oh, this mirror is unreliable then |
| 00:50 |
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| 01:20 |
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| 01:36 |
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| 02:40 |
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| 02:56 |
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| 03:25 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Dad and I are making progress on that stringop overflow. We figured out it's caused by an -O2 optimization but I'm still trying to figure out which. We suspected strict aliasing, but turning that off didn't help. |
| 03:29 |
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| 03:40 |
erlehmann |
josiah_wi “caused by”? |
| 03:40 |
erlehmann |
josiah_wi if the code is optimization-unstable, it's probably crap anyway (or the compiler is crap) |
| 03:41 |
erlehmann |
josiah_wi if you can give me a test case, i can try to look into it a bit too |
| 04:03 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> It is -foptimize-strlen |
| 04:05 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> flattenFilesystem() is a test case. Executing this function should write into a -1 offset from the char array, if the warning is correct. |
| 04:06 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I'm using GCC 10.2.1 on Debian Bullseye. |
| 04:10 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> https://externals.io/message/103041 looks like this may be a bug in GCC! |
| 04:11 |
erlehmann |
neat i guess |
| 04:12 |
erlehmann |
> More likely than not this is a bug on our side triggered by this optimization, not a bug in GCC. |
| 04:12 |
erlehmann |
oh |
| 04:12 |
erlehmann |
i should have read further |
| 04:12 |
erlehmann |
josiah_wi impressive! |
| 04:13 |
erlehmann |
but this is 3 years old?! |
| 04:14 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Well, it is getting more and more believable that the out-of-bounds write is real. |
| 04:14 |
erlehmann |
can you exploit it? |
| 04:15 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> No. Even narrowing down the exact bug is entering pro territory beyond my skills. |
| 04:15 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I am planning to disassemble it and start reading through the assembly of the relevant functions with and without the flag. |
| 04:17 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> If you want to join me on this adventure you can probably reproduce this warning by compiling with at least -O2 and GCC. Might depend on version though. |
| 04:18 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I think it should be easy to write a small test to force the overflow and ubsan it etc. |
| 04:20 |
erlehmann |
if you have a test case, i can assist |
| 04:20 |
erlehmann |
josiah_wi you can put your test code in godbolt.org |
| 04:24 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I need to sleep. Tomorrow I will work on getting a test case. |
| 04:37 |
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| 05:00 |
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| 05:00 |
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| 06:44 |
Menchers |
what is the rationale behind appending "-Os" instead of "-O3 -fomit-frame-pointer" to CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELEASE when the system name matches BSD? |
| 06:44 |
Menchers |
in src/CMakeLists.txt:770 |
| 06:50 |
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| 11:05 |
sfan5 |
no idea |
| 12:13 |
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| 12:15 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> The CMake quality has a lot of room to improve. |
| 12:27 |
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| 13:19 |
nrz |
josiah_wi go pr |
| 13:20 |
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| 13:20 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I need to finish the unit test stuff before I start too many new PRs. |
| 13:28 |
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| 13:33 |
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| 13:41 |
kilbith |
I think it's a big mistake to disable shadows for 5.5 |
| 13:42 |
kilbith |
for one, it can only cause visual hurt to MiBi (by hecks) - a game that hasn't been released yet |
| 13:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> honestly I'd prefer for it to be hidden instead of completely compiled out |
| 13:43 |
kilbith |
no - there are other settings that can also cause severe performance issues or visual hurt |
| 13:43 |
kilbith |
a label must be added warning about that |
| 13:43 |
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| 13:44 |
sfan5 |
it's either disable it _or_ add a simple opt-in from game authors for now |
| 13:44 |
kilbith |
but what other big feature 5.5 would bring to the table anyway? this would attract a lot more users |
| 13:45 |
kilbith |
and I tell you that both options are a big mistake |
| 13:45 |
kilbith |
who else appart hecks as a game author complained? |
| 13:45 |
kilbith |
they didn't eve release their game |
| 13:45 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> I like the opt in idea |
| 13:45 |
sfan5 |
are you aware that it breaks nodecore? |
| 13:45 |
sfan5 |
it literally renders shadows when there is no sun |
| 13:46 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> Also, I may be stupid, but were we aware of intellisense for Lua in vscode? |
| 13:46 |
kilbith |
that's not the only inconsistency in this engine |
| 13:47 |
kilbith |
I mean, like, waving leaves are not in the same direction than clouds one |
| 13:47 |
kilbith |
assuming there is wind in this game |
| 13:48 |
sfan5 |
why do you think opt-in is not a good solution btw? |
| 13:48 |
kilbith |
because it's arbitrary to do that on shadows only |
| 13:49 |
kilbith |
why are there no such options for liquids? |
| 13:49 |
erlehmann |
<kilbith> who else appart hecks as a game author complained? |
| 13:49 |
erlehmann |
i think ppl who have games where shadows are important |
| 13:49 |
sfan5 |
you mean opaque liquids? waving is all opt-in |
| 13:49 |
erlehmann |
speaking for mineclonia, the shadows thing is bad for gameplay |
| 13:49 |
kilbith |
we need these shadows to attract a lot more users, that's the most important |
| 13:50 |
kilbith |
sfan5: yes, for example |
| 13:50 |
erlehmann |
kilbith, tbh i doubt anyone here is focused on the “attract a lot more users” thing as much as you |
| 13:50 |
sfan5 |
well I'd prefer if Minetest was more polished before it attracted more users |
| 13:50 |
sfan5 |
for example not pushing people to MTG in the default install |
| 13:50 |
erlehmann |
i agree with sfan5. make it *work* first. |
| 13:51 |
kilbith |
sfan5: okay and what's the alternatives? MTG is the only viable choice for now tbh |
| 13:51 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> The stringop-overflow warning appears erroneous. There is no difference in the binary. |
| 13:51 |
erlehmann |
thinking shadows are so awesome that they *have* to be merged before everything is polished is what got mt into this thing in the first place, or not? |
| 13:51 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Compiling in ubsan or asan makes the warning vanish. |
| 13:51 |
kilbith |
lol |
| 13:51 |
erlehmann |
josiah_wi it ubsan or asan *replace* the offending code with code that is safer |
| 13:51 |
erlehmann |
to print their error messages i think?! |
| 13:52 |
erlehmann |
how can it be the same code then |
| 13:52 |
kilbith |
there are lot of things that are left unpolished, why being so overzealous about shadows |
| 13:52 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> erlehmann, I compared binaries without ubsan or asan. |
| 13:52 |
kilbith |
the HUD API, hypertext... |
| 13:52 |
erlehmann |
shadows are a) new b) have broken a lot of stuff already c) are controversial |
| 13:53 |
erlehmann |
speaking for mineclonia, the shadows thing is bad for gameplay → bc light level is a game mechanic for mcla, i.e. to spawn-proof areas you have to light them up correctly. |
| 13:53 |
sfan5 |
kilbith: I don't know, MCL is certainly very shiny but has some ugly parts. More than 'which game is better' I think it's important to tell users that MTG is not the only thing Minetest has to offer |
| 13:53 |
kilbith |
you don't use them anyway |
| 13:53 |
erlehmann |
also what sfan5 says, the biggest thing is ppl thinking mtg is all there is |
| 13:54 |
erlehmann |
there are so many good games like repixture, exile, inside the box … |
| 13:54 |
sfan5 |
well |
| 13:54 |
sfan5 |
I bet most people are looking for something vaguely minecraft like |
| 13:55 |
sfan5 |
which MTG does, halfway |
| 13:55 |
erlehmann |
kinda, but you have mcl2, mcl5, mcla too (the first too being a bit crashy/laggy, the last one lacking features) |
| 13:56 |
kilbith |
people from Minecraft need to install OptiFine + shaders pack to get dynamic shadows; we have the occasion on the next release to show them that we have an edge against MC on that one |
| 13:56 |
erlehmann |
for me repixture was much more mc than mtg |
| 13:57 |
erlehmann |
kilbith i don't know if it got fixed yet, but stuff like “drawers mod nodes render completely black” is unacceptable from a QA point of view |
| 13:57 |
sfan5 |
well like I said a temporary opt-in would allow that without (rightfully) upsetting other game devs |
| 13:57 |
kilbith |
okay that's only a ridiculous drawer and I'm sure x2048 can fix in time |
| 13:58 |
sfan5 |
don't know other coredevs think about this proposal |
| 13:59 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> I also love more users, but I'm also more patient than kilbith haha |
| 13:59 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> And doing it with a different strategy |
| 13:59 |
erlehmann |
kilbith which game/mod do you develop on that absolutely *needs* shadows in your opinion? |
| 14:00 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> As for earlier, it seems to have been overlooked: was everyone else here aware of full on multifile lua intellisense possible for minetest with vscode/codium xtensions? |
| 14:00 |
sfan5 |
never heard of Lua integration with vscode |
| 14:00 |
erlehmann |
sfan5, “making it an advanced setting and caring about as much about breakage resulting from a user setting gravity to NaN” is not a good solution? |
| 14:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> kilbith: (in response to dynamic shadows giving us an edge over MC) true honestly, someone asking for minetest shaders in minetest discord is a pretty regular occurence |
| 14:01 |
erlehmann |
sfan5, by which i mean if users like kilbith care so much about having shadows they can change that setting |
| 14:01 |
erlehmann |
but will be on their own, as the gravity-NaN people are |
| 14:01 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> Okay, that's what I figured, I will look into it more and see if I can make it a better integration (auto generate the minetest namespace intellisence) |
| 14:02 |
sfan5 |
that was discussed and deemed unacceptable because game authors still have shadows forced on them |
| 14:02 |
erlehmann |
ah ok |
| 14:02 |
erlehmann |
well then the opt-in is the next best thing |
| 14:02 |
erlehmann |
(speaking as a game dev) |
| 14:02 |
erlehmann |
tbh i think not having it render these shadows by default becomes more important the more i think about it |
| 14:03 |
erlehmann |
wsor4035, does your game even *have* a moving sun? |
| 14:03 |
kilbith |
because you use a very old computer mostly, yes |
| 14:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> @Exe, Virus have you tried green's minetest vs code extension? |
| 14:03 |
erlehmann |
kilbith wdym? |
| 14:04 |
kilbith |
I heard that you don't even have GL >2.1 supported on your HW |
| 14:04 |
kilbith |
that explain it all |
| 14:04 |
erlehmann |
kilbith i use a very old computer, but shadows are gameplay concept in mcl* mod. sun light level is 15 or 16, torch light level is one below, materials block light or not. hostile overworld mobs only spawn in the dark. |
| 14:04 |
erlehmann |
nothing to do with hardware |
| 14:05 |
sfan5 |
MC has that too and somehow that doesn't prevent people from using shadows there |
| 14:05 |
kilbith |
if you could afford it, you'd see their benefits |
| 14:05 |
erlehmann |
i actually tried it out on a computer that can do it and it looks questionable and makes for worse gameplay in mcla |
| 14:06 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> It's about the implementation, not that we hate shadows haha |
| 14:06 |
erlehmann |
that sth breaks the in-game light level representation is a BIG issue for mcla |
| 14:06 |
erlehmann |
for example, ppl with fullbright hacks on anarchy servers *always* do not light up their bases correctly |
| 14:06 |
erlehmann |
and then some creeper spawns there and blows it up |
| 14:06 |
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| 14:07 |
erlehmann |
i don't want that to happen to non-cheaters bc they activate a “cool new feature” |
| 14:07 |
erlehmann |
so i totally see the reason for the opt-in on game level and mcla will not opt-in |
| 14:11 |
erlehmann |
kilbith strategically speaking, in my experience “not upsetting existing devs/users” usually has a better payoff than “try to attract new ppl, but make existing devs/users less happy” |
| 14:11 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> Yes, and they're compatible with each other, but I think it might be better to take what xenith has and integrate it into this intellisense setup |
| 14:13 |
kilbith |
I'd sacrifice *non-notable* game authors dissatisfaction any day of the week to gain like 1000+ new users in my community |
| 14:13 |
wsor4035 |
erlehmann: my game isnt even released yet. pretty sure your thinking of someone else |
| 14:13 |
MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> Because it'll tell you errors as you type, what variables tables have inside, etc. For a mod and it's dependencies. |
| 14:13 |
erlehmann |
wsor4035 oh damn, probably. you don't make nodecore?! |
| 14:13 |
sfan5 |
no that's Warr1024 |
| 14:13 |
erlehmann |
w.*[0-9]{4} |
| 14:14 |
erlehmann |
matches ;) |
| 14:14 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 i saw your tsv thing and want to applaud. haven't tested it yet. do you think the xml → tsv could be done with an XSLT stylesheet? bc if that's possible, i'll write you one. |
| 14:14 |
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| 14:15 |
erlehmann |
if you are unsure about that i'll still try it |
| 14:15 |
wsor4035 |
id say warr1024 is probably the most notable game dev to take a stance against shadows tho |
| 14:15 |
erlehmann |
with good reason |
| 14:15 |
wsor4035 |
of released games |
| 14:15 |
erlehmann |
released = on contentdb? |
| 14:15 |
sfan5 |
I don't know about stylesheets but it doesn't really matter, I wrote a cpp converter |
| 14:15 |
sfan5 |
(it's in the irrlicht pr) |
| 14:16 |
wsor4035 |
yes |
| 14:16 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 yeah i saw it, but i think a stylesheet would be a) less code b) usable without “compile with 1.9.0mt2” requirement |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> @Exe, Virus i use vscode-lua extension, since i have had issues with other ones |
| 14:16 |
erlehmann |
like *way* less code arguably |
| 14:16 |
erlehmann |
sfan5, i'll try it and show it to you later today if i manage to do it |
| 14:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> plus vscode-luacheck |
| 14:17 |
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| 14:22 |
erlehmann |
<sfan5> MC has that too and somehow that doesn't prevent people from using shadows there |
| 14:22 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 in minecraft you can press f3 to check light level |
| 14:22 |
erlehmann |
i think |
| 14:23 |
erlehmann |
so if you have optifine ridiculous shadows, the debug tool makes it possible to spawnproof with lights ig |
| 14:23 |
erlehmann |
also there is a resource pack for optifine to shade the entire world according to light levels |
| 14:27 |
wsor4035 |
anyways, for shadows to bring in new users, would require them to get the latest version of minetest. which servers have always had issues with trying to keep users up to date. just look and see how many servers use mods like i3 that require the latest version of minetest (client side) |
| 14:28 |
erlehmann |
also, to quote marketing research “The actual number of people who do buy is completely unrelated to this say-they-would-buy metric.” |
| 14:29 |
erlehmann |
are shadows dynamically recalculated btw? bc in minecraft, that meant you could make a top lag machine :D |
| 14:29 |
erlehmann |
just hav a stone platform with a single node hole in it high up |
| 14:29 |
kilbith |
this is a client side feature |
| 14:29 |
kilbith |
nothing to do with lag |
| 14:29 |
erlehmann |
then use a piston to open and close it |
| 14:29 |
erlehmann |
to lag out all the computers that can't handle the light updates |
| 14:30 |
kilbith |
and I'm pretty sure that if hecks didn't bring up this server-side opt-in, no one would ever care about it |
| 14:30 |
kilbith |
but hecks can be extremely convincing |
| 14:30 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> How should I check in the build whether a compiler flag exists? I'm failing a CI test because the optimization flag I added doesn't exist on the MacOSX CI. |
| 14:30 |
erlehmann |
josiah_wi only add it when it exists? |
| 14:31 |
kilbith |
> optifine ridiculous shadows |
| 14:31 |
kilbith |
completely show that you have a bias against it |
| 14:31 |
wsor4035 |
games can sorta do a hack job to get around shadows, see nodecore |
| 14:31 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Yes, that seems like a good idea, doesn't it, erlehmann. The question is how to do that properly. |
| 14:33 |
erlehmann |
look, if both “i prefer latest and greatest, delete everything else”-hecktest AND “keep the legacy shit around until truly on one needs it anymore”-erlehmann – two ppl who represent extreme bitch about a feature being too low quality and breaking stuff, you'll *probably* have a hard time finding many ppl with positions in between who'll think it's a good idea |
| 14:33 |
erlehmann |
i meant “represent extremes” |
| 14:34 |
erlehmann |
kilbith development is not a popularity contest, it's always about a) dev effort b) user experience |
| 14:34 |
erlehmann |
and shadows are obv going to be improved |
| 14:34 |
erlehmann |
they already are, x2048 is on it! |
| 14:34 |
kilbith |
we should have opt'd-in node transparency for years then |
| 14:35 |
kilbith |
if we had to listen to ppl like you |
| 14:35 |
erlehmann |
what do you mean? |
| 14:35 |
kilbith |
because they break lotsa stuff |
| 14:35 |
erlehmann |
is this about connected glass being in optifine? |
| 14:35 |
kilbith |
no |
| 14:35 |
erlehmann |
transparent leaves? |
| 14:36 |
kilbith |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11130 |
| 14:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11696 which sorta superseeds it |
| 14:40 |
erlehmann |
oh yeah, i wanted to check that for performance regressions |
| 14:40 |
erlehmann |
Jonathon thx for mentioning it |
| 14:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> not suprising to hear you complaining about.... |
| 14:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> jonathon wonders sometimes if erlehmann does anything besides complain in this channel |
| 14:47 |
wsor4035 |
btw thanks kilbith for all the work you have put into i3 |
| 14:49 |
erlehmann |
Jonathon i also complain on github ^^ |
| 14:55 |
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| 16:11 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> @wsor clarify please: do you mean "jonathon wonders sometimes if erlehmann does anything besides (complain in this channel)" or "jonathon wonders sometimes if (erlehmann does anything besides complain) in this channel" |
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| 17:59 |
sfan5 |
merging #9638, #11764 in 10m |
| 17:59 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9638 -- Lua API: Add `rmdir`, `cpdir` and `mvdir` by octacian |
| 17:59 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11764 -- Fix compiler detection in buildbot by sfan5 |
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| 18:33 |
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| 18:47 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=103176 |
| 18:47 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> I filed a bug report with GCC. Will see what comes of it. |
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| 22:46 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> YES, I fixed the stringop warning. It's detecting an anti-pattern, so I changed it to the correct idiom and it's fixed. |
