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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2021-10-22

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Time Nick Message
00:04 erlehmann ok so it seems that test 52 (polygonOffset) breaks with the XML stuff removed. this makes no sense to me. maybe i should just stop.
00:05 erlehmann oh no, it is worse
00:08 erlehmann sfan5, so it turns out that SURPRISE the XML removal broke tests that have … SURPRISE the test data specified as XML
00:08 erlehmann like which textures to use
00:09 erlehmann i may appear very rude, but this is just frustrating. first break the tests, then remove them bc no one can get them to run?
00:10 erlehmann what should be done in such a case? i mean the game obv does not use xml anymore (since it was removed)
00:10 erlehmann but i bet some fun hater will now say just to rewrite the tests to not use xml or something
00:11 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> Yes, because that's what should probably be done
00:11 erlehmann well i think that ppl who break stuff should fix it
00:11 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> If you're not testing the XML, and you don't need it for anything else...
00:12 erlehmann well it broke the pixel fonts too without intending too – but when i complained about that, they were declared unsupported, bc minetest had been in an on-off-relationship with working pixel font for years (which i understand)
00:13 erlehmann what i am hinting at is that gutting the entire irrlicht thing *in that reckless way* is not making anything easier except for producing bugs probably
00:13 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> Anyhow, the ideal would probably be to get the person who broke things (hecks I suppose?) to fix 'em. But this isn't a corporate environment, we can't really mandate that specific people do specific things
00:14 erlehmann Hugues Ross it is not the first thing hecks (or anyone) broke though, letting this kind of thing slide is just policy it seems
00:15 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> Sure, I've broken stuff myself so I'm well aware
00:15 erlehmann i am just pointing out it is a bad one. i can't change it.
00:15 erlehmann yeah so how did you find out?
00:15 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> Folks discovering issues after the fact, generally
00:15 erlehmann i also think that “i don't know how this thing is used, so it is probably useless” as a maxim has introduced too many bugs
00:16 erlehmann see for example the ticket about not teleporting when you are attached
00:17 erlehmann where apparently no one even thought that this could have use (and there is no real alternative, as games/mods rely on it)
00:17 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> I haven't kept up with the github for a while so I can't common on how common it is, but yeah I'd agree that it's bad practice to pull features if you genuinely don't know how they're used
00:17 erlehmann i think the problem is that ppl *think* they know
00:17 erlehmann and then don't do the research
00:17 erlehmann or don't benchmark
00:18 erlehmann we had an example a few hours ago, when a bunch of ppl including me were surprised that webp saves so many bytes with small images
00:18 erlehmann this is ofc not a problem
00:19 erlehmann but claiming “no one uses TGA/XML/whatever” has made stuff difficult
00:19 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> Seems possible. I get the impression sometimes that there's not enough crossover between PRs and the community, so we wind up with minimal modder input in places where it's needed until the update lands and becomes public knowledge that way
00:19 erlehmann it's a mindset thing
00:19 erlehmann look it is not about lack of input
00:20 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> On my end, it has been almost exclusively a lack of input. I can't speak to your circumstances, but that's what I've seen
00:20 erlehmann for example, to figure out if anyone besides mineclone2 and mineclone5 uses TGA images, someone scanned the entire contentdb with a script for filetypes
00:20 erlehmann but the person who removed TGA did not do it
00:20 erlehmann even though it is a trivial task to verify
00:21 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> Did they do it before or after the TGA removal?
00:21 erlehmann after ppl complained
00:21 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> If it was after, it speaks to my point
00:22 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> People notice something's wrong after it's too late, because devs aren't communicating enough to the people relying on the systems they touch. So they find out when the system changes in a way that causes them problems, but it's now difficult to change.
00:22 erlehmann when ppl complained before, they were not taken seriously enough (also mcl2 devs have a habit of claiming mt engine devs are idiots, but they don't do it on github obv – could be that they did not have the motivation to actually spell it out after not being taken seriously)
00:22 erlehmann well this is why i advocate tests and stuff
00:23 erlehmann and i think josiah_wi is doing great work
00:23 erlehmann but if the next person who breaks a test can just delete it, nothing is gained
00:24 erlehmann can i still compile minetest with standard irrlicht?
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00:24 erlehmann i think it makes more sense to backport the improvements there
00:24 erlehmann and ignore the removals
00:25 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> I don't think it's possible anymore, unless that was changed
00:25 erlehmann why exactly?
00:25 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> Probably because they wanted the freedom to break API compat
00:26 erlehmann are you aware of any breakage that is not straight up removal of features?
00:26 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> I'm not involved in the process, so I wouldn't know either way
00:26 erlehmann like i see improvements in irrlichtmt ofc
00:26 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> I'm just a random guy on the internet
00:26 erlehmann but for a lack of tests i can not say what breaks lol
00:26 erlehmann (currently testing more)
00:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> given that the goal is to nuke irrlicht, keeping the ability to compile with mainstream irrlicht seems like a joke
00:28 erlehmann Jonathon the problem i have is that regardless of if the process of irrlichtmt development is guided by “i don't know about breakage” or “i don't care about breakage” it's a huge mess
00:29 MTDiscord <Jonathon> erlehmann_rants = nil would be nice
00:29 erlehmann again, please do *mandatory* code reviews on irrlichtmt
00:30 erlehmann Jonathon i am only ranting because i am trying to improve the thing and finding it sucks, but i get it
00:30 erlehmann i won't convince anyone, i can go back to filing issues ig
00:31 MTDiscord <Jonathon> >ranting >improving seems oxymoronic simple quote for you. "talk is cheap, show me the code"
00:31 erlehmann i'll suggest to my coworkers to try to find bugs in minetest at our next team event, maybe that brings some fuzzing action to the table
00:31 erlehmann Jonathon, code's compiling
00:31 erlehmann i use the time to rant actually lol
00:31 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Hey, this issue I have just got dirtier.
00:31 erlehmann ok compile done
00:31 erlehmann brb
00:32 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> The undefined symbol is in libIrrlichtMt.a and it should be linked with the -ldl flag. I added this to the tests, but it still doesn't link.
00:32 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'm going to try building libIrrlichtMt.so as a dynamic library, to see whether it changes anything.
00:33 erlehmann sfan5 i have confirmed now that the existing tests were broken by your removal of XML. that is probably why hecks could not get them to run, they were already broken at that point.
00:34 erlehmann i still think straight up deleting them was a bad idea, but since the tests did not compile anyway, hecks probably assumed they were broken already
00:34 erlehmann a bit of git bisect could have changed that impression, but as i said, the problem is not verifying assumptions
00:34 erlehmann josiah_wi so what are you going to do with tests that break bc their config is in xml, rewrite them?
00:36 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'm going to start by disabling all the tests, and choosing which tests are worth fixing and pushing. By not re-adding all the tests, the commit size will be reduced too.
00:37 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I've confirmed that building IrrlichtMt as a dynamic library fixes the missing dclose reference. I haven't the slightest clue why haha.
00:37 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> dlclose*
00:37 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> It's going to need to work as a static library, so I have to fix this.
00:37 erlehmann well dlopen and dlclose are for dynamic libs?
00:38 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'm not familiar with that.
00:39 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> All I know is I'm getting ../lib/Linux/libIrrlichtMt.a(CGLXManager.cpp.o): undefined reference to symbol 'dlclose@@GLIBC_2.2.5'
00:40 erlehmann josiah_wi do “man 3 dlopen”
00:40 erlehmann and read the man page
00:40 erlehmann it will probably help a bit
00:41 erlehmann no idea why it complains about close, but not open lol
00:41 erlehmann josiah_wi the man page is long, if you get the gist, just scroll down to the example code
00:41 erlehmann it make it pretty clear i think
00:42 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'm not sure that will help me understand how to fix this.
00:42 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I haven't written any code. libIrrlichtMt.a is very clearly not a dynamic library. And linking to -ldl doesn't help either (I got that from the man page)
00:43 erlehmann can you point at the line that is bugged?
00:43 erlehmann maybe i can help, i have written code that used dlopen(3) sometimes (PKCS#11 library interfacing)
00:43 erlehmann but i am not good with computer and C/C++ so i prob can't figure it out either
00:44 erlehmann just if you want a second person to try
00:45 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> It's probably a misconfiguration in the CMake build. At least that's my best guess.
00:46 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'm going to compile Minetest to make sure Minetest still works hahaha.
00:46 erlehmann can't help you with that, but did you try building the makefile and observing what happens?
00:46 erlehmann i mean the tests dir had a makefile
00:47 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I did not try building the Makefile, but I read it to the best of my ability.
00:47 erlehmann if you build using it, it shows the commands
00:47 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I have CMake printing out the commands, too.
00:47 erlehmann yeah so you can compare then
00:48 erlehmann bc the makefile works, right up until the commit that removes XML support
00:48 erlehmann then it can't compile obv
00:48 erlehmann so then you diff the cmake output and the makefile?
00:48 erlehmann i mean the make output
00:48 erlehmann sorry sleepy
00:48 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> It won't work for me because it builds every .cpp file, and I need to disable pretty much everything.
00:49 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I can probably list just the one .cpp file I want, though.
00:49 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> one or two*
00:49 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> That reminds me. I disabled a file I need by accident, oops.
00:49 erlehmann welcome to the unintentionally disabling vital code club ;)
00:50 erlehmann i'd lie if i say it hasn't happened to me in the last 24 hours
00:51 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Yep, I commented out the main.cpp in the tests folder. Talk about vital.
00:52 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Anyway, that's unrelated to the issue at hand. I'll finish building Minetest, and if Minetest works then I probably did something weird.
00:52 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> If Minetest doesn't work we have a massive issue we gotta solve ASAP lol.
00:58 erlehmann josiah_wi i conclude, if you did not do something weird, we have a massive issue
00:59 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> We shall see. IrrlichtMt has worked with Minetest up until now, so I don't see why it would break. But I also don't understand why it would work with Minetest and not with my unit test executable.
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01:02 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> > Are you really sure you want to statically link a program which is calling the dynamic linker at runtime thru dlopen?? Statically linking such programs is generally a bad idea.
01:02 erlehmann ok i am donee for today. i have spent too much time testing this thing.
01:02 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> A stack overflow post says this. This would seem to apply to us.
01:02 erlehmann josiah_wi i have a gift
01:03 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> A gift?
01:03 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ok phew, Minetest links.
01:05 erlehmann josiah_wi https://mister-muffin.de/p/MCA0.txt
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01:07 erlehmann josiah_wi this is the test log i made from commit accf9278 …
01:07 erlehmann josiah_wi note that a lot of stuff is already broken, but those was the last time tests actually worked
01:07 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Nice.
01:07 erlehmann like just before the xml removal
01:08 erlehmann having a single binary for all the tests is bad, as you said
01:08 erlehmann like any undefined behaviour in one test will taint all of them
01:08 erlehmann it is not localized actually
01:08 erlehmann ppl may think that
01:09 erlehmann but if a program is undefined in one location, it is likely undefined in every location
01:09 erlehmann also it is stupid to not be able to run all tests that way
01:10 erlehmann so yeah, originally i wanted to figure out what the xml removal broke by diffing the test output
01:10 erlehmann but as i said, it broke the tests itself
01:10 erlehmann should i file an issue?
01:11 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I don't see the point in doing so.
01:11 erlehmann yeah
01:12 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I suggest we revive the XML test and then if the test fails we investigate.
01:12 erlehmann you can't compile it actually
01:12 erlehmann as it stores the test configuration (which textures to load i think) in xml
01:12 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ok, so this keeps getting weirder. Apparently I need to link -ldl to IrrlichtMt itself, but then why does Minetest work.
01:12 erlehmann and reads it at runtime
01:12 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> This all makes 0 sense.
01:13 erlehmann software was a mistake. we should have stayed in the ocean.
01:13 erlehmann josiah_wi, ok let me give you the error brb
01:14 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Whelp, linking -ldl to libIrrlichtMt.a fixed the issue. I'm completely stumped.
01:18 erlehmann i have no idea what is happening
01:19 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Got those XML errors.
01:20 erlehmann good, then you see why i am tired of this crap
01:21 erlehmann like just typing "make" in the test directory would have caught it
01:21 erlehmann (i guess)
01:22 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Sweet, test is running.
01:22 erlehmann nice show
01:23 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Turns out the .png test textures were axed.
01:23 erlehmann well
01:23 erlehmann josiah_wi what do you think of the workaround of just taking the last known-good state of irrlichtmt and then just cherry-picking all the improvements, but leaving out the “let's delete everything that is not used (oh it was actually used, well that's not my problem)” commits?
01:24 erlehmann i think it would save work actually
01:24 erlehmann prob can even be done automatically
01:24 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> It might be a better solution if everyone agreed that was desirable, but I don't think that's something that will reasonably be merged.
01:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I have the test passing.
01:25 erlehmann i would not want it to be merged
01:25 erlehmann the history of the repo is poisoned by the huge “remove everything” commit
01:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> If the goal is to contribute something useful back to the Minetest community, then we definitely should take their wishes into consideration.
01:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Otherwise why are we here.
01:26 erlehmann if you want to look what “the community” thinks of feature removals, you won't find it in this channel
01:26 erlehmann maybe on the forums
01:27 erlehmann but it does not matter, i think the whole dev process has become so hard through the “throw away stuff” thing
01:27 erlehmann i have been testing stuff for hours just to figure out what worked when
01:27 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Look, if nobody uses our changes, why is it worth making them?
01:28 erlehmann josiah_wi honestly i just want a working minetest version on my hardware.
01:28 erlehmann cora has made her own cheat client, mostly for herself
01:28 erlehmann i'd like to go back to mineclonia development and not care about ppl ripping out format or hardware support
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01:29 erlehmann bc what is my time worth if in 2 months time someone declares that tough shit, none of my laptops is good enough to run this thing?
01:30 erlehmann and honestly, i am not interested in fighting hecks in a court of public opinion or something. the damage was done, it is easier to fork it and make a better irrlichtmt than fighting against a feature removal policy.
01:30 erlehmann if minetest still links against it, no one has to support it even
01:31 erlehmann and again, i am opposed to *how* this was/is done. removing big chunks, then everything that adds it back in has to be justified.
01:31 erlehmann and constantly breaking stuff that used to work, then declaring it unsupported.
01:31 erlehmann i mean, i am overdoing it a bit here, but on purpose, this stuff is just too hard to even get to run.
01:32 erlehmann i'll probably just go back to creating crash tests
01:32 erlehmann josiah_wi btw one of the first things i would advocate is adding my crash examples to the unit tests as regression tests
01:32 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Well, I intend to compromise and try to actually get unit tests merged back into the official repo.
01:33 erlehmann yeah that is good
01:33 erlehmann you probably have more energy to spend
01:33 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I have ctest working. Just 1 test, but I'm glad haha.
01:33 erlehmann it is nice yes
01:33 erlehmann i wish i had approval rights, then i would review it
01:33 erlehmann but alas
01:34 erlehmann but please show
01:34 erlehmann i want to see
01:34 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ok, I have to decide what to commit now, hehe.
01:35 erlehmann git add -p
01:35 erlehmann you can also make several commits
01:35 erlehmann to make clear how you did it
01:35 erlehmann please do it now, i can test it
01:35 erlehmann so you got all the things
01:36 erlehmann but i can't possibly help you get it merged
01:37 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Yeah, I'm taking my time to make good commits here. Or trying to, anyway.
01:37 erlehmann so which is your one test anyway?
01:37 erlehmann test 1, 'testIrrArray'?
01:40 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> disambiguateTextures.cpp There's a comment saying it's supposed to be run first.
01:42 erlehmann btw, for future reference, here is the compile error log for the commit that broke the tests https://mister-muffin.de/p/sy7-.txt
01:44 erlehmann now why would drawPixel.cpp or 2dmaterial.cpp need XML? i don't care, but it should not be broken
01:52 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> erlehmann, before I commit, I'm considering trying to fix the missing log file.
01:53 erlehmann josiah_wi wdym missing log file?
01:57 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> "sh: 1: test.log: not found"
01:57 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> tests.log*
01:58 erlehmann lol ok no idea
01:58 erlehmann sorry
01:59 erlehmann josiah_wi i am happy that you committed to this task, it will make development less error prone
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02:04 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Alright, it seems like it's a working directory issue or something probably.
02:04 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'm just going to push what I have.
02:04 erlehmann if you include documentation, i can look at it
02:04 erlehmann like what commands to issue
02:05 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> https://github.com/JosiahWI/irrlicht on the feat/unit_tests branch
02:06 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I didn't include documentation because I'm still working on it, and it's relatively straightforward. Just build with CMake like normal and run the tests binary in bin/
02:06 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> tests are enabled by default but there's an option to toggle them.
02:06 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> You should try removing the texture in media, so that the test fails, because it happens the test fails with a segfault which I find curious.
02:10 erlehmann josiah_wi where can i get the PGP pubkey for your signaturee
02:10 erlehmann it is not on keys.openpgp.org
02:10 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Yeah, It's only on GitHub. I made it just for fun.
02:11 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> If you really want my pubkey I can send it to you, I guess? ...
02:11 erlehmann look i need the public key to verify it
02:12 erlehmann wait, before you publish it
02:12 erlehmann add an expiry date
02:12 erlehmann if you don't already have
02:12 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'm not going to publish my GPG key at this time.
02:12 erlehmann therefore, if you lose the private key, it will resolve itself
02:12 erlehmann strange, you sign commits, but no one should verify them?
02:13 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> It's so that GitHub will do the verified checkmark.
02:13 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I just wanted to have the checkmark because it was cool? ok? XD
02:14 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Maybe I shouldn't have made a key so hastily haha.
02:14 erlehmann uh
02:14 erlehmann ok do you understand that this will literally not benefit you?
02:15 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> It will only benefit me as far as that GitHub will verify that I am the person who made the commits it says I made.
02:15 erlehmann without the key, my shell for example will show a big red warning message (bc i configured it so)
02:15 erlehmann yeah but github can lie
02:15 erlehmann it is about git
02:15 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Oh boy.
02:15 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I better publish my key. I don't have time to try to figure that out tonight though.
02:15 erlehmann yeah i get it
02:16 erlehmann i can help you with it lateer
02:16 erlehmann oh btw, did you know that your GPG agent can also pretend to be an SSH agent? that way you need no separate ssh keys
02:16 erlehmann just an authentication subkey
02:17 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Interesting, I did not know that.
02:17 erlehmann aaaand … with git-remote-gcrypt you can make git repos – even on github, that only people with specified public keys (by default: only your own) can read
02:17 erlehmann you just add gcrypt:: in front of the remote and it does its magic
02:18 erlehmann github will then ofc not be able to read your repo, but i use it for config files for example
02:18 erlehmann that need to be secret
02:18 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Now that sounds like a really handy trick.
02:18 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Any luck building the tests?
02:19 erlehmann also the pass(1) password manager uses gpg encrypted text files and commits them to git https://www.passwordstore.org/
02:19 erlehmann give me a min
02:24 erlehmann josiah_wi it complains that tests directory does not contain a CMakeLists.txt file
02:24 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ack I forgot to commit it.
02:24 erlehmann you probably haven't tested your test build on another computer :D
02:24 erlehmann imo you can fold it in using git commit --amend
02:25 erlehmann i can do git reset --hard
02:25 erlehmann but do what you want
02:25 erlehmann tell me when you are ready
02:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Yeah, I was going to ask first before doing an amend to make sure it wouldn't mess up your repo.
02:25 erlehmann oh, git will reject it
02:25 erlehmann but many ppl don't know how to get out of it
02:25 erlehmann but since i am *probably* the only one checking this out, i think it is ok
02:26 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Pushed. I'm afraid you'll probably have to suffer the GPG warning again. :/
02:26 erlehmann i once had to help my bf to get out of a force push situation like this …
02:26 erlehmann no problem, it just hangs my shell each time for a few seconds since it assumes it can find the key online maybe, then gives up
02:26 erlehmann honestly i did not know it could automatically search for keys online
02:27 erlehmann i thought i had to configure that
02:27 erlehmann but my own fault
02:27 erlehmann after all, i do use git signatures mostly for my own repos
02:27 erlehmann i have been very careful about this after a server with repos of mine got compromised
02:28 erlehmann and also i live in a country (germany) where it is legal for the state to hack ppl
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02:28 erlehmann the easiest way is to actually compromise your test suite ;)
02:28 erlehmann (i won't run it on the computer i am typing on ofc)
02:29 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ouch. Security is an important thing to understand, and a lot of computer users including myself aren't too familiar with it I'm afraid.
02:29 erlehmann well i have made enough mistakes so far
02:29 erlehmann but the setup with git signatures is pretty cool
02:30 erlehmann basically, my shell does: git show '--color=always' --no-patch '--pretty=%h %s' HEAD --show-signature
02:30 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Anyway, this is the dev channel so we should probably keep it related to Minetest development concerns. 🙂
02:30 erlehmann ah right
02:30 erlehmann ok lets get to the tests
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02:34 erlehmann josiah_wi can not find source file disambiguateTextures.cpp
02:35 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I should've written a list of every file I needed instead of trying to remember them off the top of my head.
02:35 erlehmann josiah_wi i suggest you git clone it into a temp folder (by using git clone $PATH) and then try to build there
02:35 erlehmann you will find outwhat you missed
02:35 erlehmann ping me when you think you have them all?
02:36 erlehmann try "git status" to figure out what files it could have been
02:36 erlehmann it will show all unversioned files
02:40 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> OK, that should be everything now. I got all the source files, all the CMakeLists.txt files, and the media file.
02:41 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Yep, can confirm it compiles now after stashing all unrelated stuff.
02:51 erlehmann ok
02:51 erlehmann cool
02:51 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Works?
02:52 erlehmann why the working directory weirdness
02:53 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> The tests are required to be run from the working directory. This is the fault of the original test author's, not mine. xD
02:53 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> ctest is set up to run them from the working directory automatically, but it doesn't print the logging information and I haven't figured out how to fix that.
02:53 erlehmann also you have windows line endings
02:54 erlehmann like … other irrlicht code
02:54 erlehmann ewwwww
02:54 erlehmann ._.
02:54 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Yeah, exactly. CMake files should be LF though.
02:54 erlehmann yeah they are
02:54 erlehmann i bet irrlicht authors mix tabs and spaces
02:54 erlehmann or meat and cheese
02:55 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> There was mixed tab and spaces indentation in the main.cpp file in tests as I said earlier.
02:55 erlehmann different line endings in same project is absolutely haram
02:55 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I fixed it though haha.
02:55 erlehmann yeah lol
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02:58 erlehmann josiah_wi how to run tests
02:58 erlehmann you really should add documentation
02:59 erlehmann the original tests had to be run in the tests dir
02:59 erlehmann regardless of where the binary was
02:59 erlehmann this does not work
03:00 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Right, it's still that way.
03:00 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Unless you run ctest, but it leaves out logging.
03:00 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> To run ctest just ctest from the build directory.
03:01 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ah, ctest --verbose gets the logging back in.
03:01 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Try that.
03:01 erlehmann try running the test binary
03:01 erlehmann it does not find some stuff
03:01 erlehmann i think you messed up
03:02 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> This must be related to the missing log file.
03:02 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Not sure.
03:02 erlehmann i am on commit d0a…
03:02 erlehmann is that ok?
03:03 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> yes
03:03 erlehmann so here is the output
03:04 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ok, I used the wrong media directory. My bad.
03:05 erlehmann https://mister-muffin.de/p/saCC.txt
03:07 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I got this error locally too so I'll get it fixed.
03:08 erlehmann ok cool
03:08 erlehmann once you have this working, i suggest to annoy ppl to put it in the CI
03:09 erlehmann and then advocate that failing tests should prevent merges
03:09 erlehmann and then bully everyone who has a shirt with “move fast and break things” until they stop doing that xD
03:10 erlehmann josiah_wi can ctest spit out coverage info?
03:12 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I don't know, I haven't used ctest before.
03:15 erlehmann ok it seems it can
03:15 erlehmann i suggest to add that
03:15 erlehmann it helps to see if your tests are good
03:20 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I've pushed a fix to the test.
03:20 erlehmann ok
03:20 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'll look at how to add coverage information.
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03:22 erlehmann look i think this is not working
03:22 erlehmann like still not
03:22 erlehmann if it work locally, something is different than here
03:22 erlehmann i'll be off
03:23 erlehmann but i hope i could help a bit
03:23 erlehmann need for sleep
03:38 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Oof, that's a lot of requests, move fast and break things is good in the dev stage, and tests will never catch all our bugs, and if we write too many tests, we'll end up having to maintain or update more tests when PRs making knowing changes that break tests.   I.e. a test that is useful will likely break every 5-10th PR because our codebase is still quite.... Young? Naive? Weak? You get the point
03:39 MTDiscord <exe_virus> I'm all for some testing, I'm not for reject everything that fails the tests
03:39 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> That is arguably why test cases are useful.
03:39 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Because they require updating for certain PR's?
03:39 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> If test cases are good, a failing test should indicate that something needs to be fixed, or the test needs to be updated.
03:40 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Gotcha, we'll see but I've seen some code bases dragged down by too many tests
03:40 MTDiscord <exe_virus> I.e. one change = 12 test updates
03:40 erlehmann exe_virus how can you have *too many* tests?
03:40 MTDiscord <exe_virus> That sort of thing
03:41 erlehmann well then you prob broke 12 systems that way
03:41 erlehmann and it should be very clear that that is a bad thing
03:41 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Yes, but not in a breaking way, just a breaking way for the tests
03:41 erlehmann good code rarely needs test updates
03:41 MTDiscord <exe_virus> I.e. tests are often fragile
03:41 erlehmann wdym fragile?
03:42 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Change a directory and suddenly a bunch of test cases fail
03:42 erlehmann well if the requirement is that it only works in a specific directory, then it is right. otherwise, the test might not test what you want to test.
03:42 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Right, it's hard to write good code, and it's ten times as hard to write good tests
03:43 erlehmann “move fast and break things is good in the dev stage” i have literally never seen this work except if someone wanted to map out the solution space. deleting a bunch of things without regard for what is broken by it is not included in “mapping out the solution space”.
03:43 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Having 20 mediocre tests can hurt a code base more than it helps
03:43 erlehmann i literally will not believe you that your code is good without a test case
03:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Very different than what you have been griping about, that was carelessness in a way
03:44 erlehmann > a test that is useful will likely break every 5-10th PR because our codebase is still quite.... Young? Naive? Weak?
03:44 erlehmann no if the test breaks either the dev is reckless or the test is too broad
03:44 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I am more than willing to be careful about the quality of the tests.
03:44 erlehmann i have seen „dev is reckless“ a lot
03:44 erlehmann me too
03:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> How many tests have you written for C++ code bases?
03:45 erlehmann i can definitely tell you that minetest does not have too many tests
03:45 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Me? None, that's why I'm not intending to write any.
03:45 erlehmann come on, some bugs are only noticed because months later some stuff stops working
03:45 erlehmann on some persons machine
03:45 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Haha fair Josiah, I'm more curious about where erlehmanns zealousness comes from
03:46 erlehmann i am the guy at work who is asked when you have to write fire-and-forget software (i.e. it needs to be as good as it can get), but i do not write it in C++
03:46 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Is it just that "tests would defend against backwards compat breaks" is the goal here, or does it come from experience with great code bases with lots of good tests?
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03:46 MTDiscord <exe_virus> What language? I think you're IT so I assume scripts and setup files?
03:46 erlehmann oh yeah i actually have written a backend service that had basically no bugs
03:47 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Doubtful, no bugs yet* should always be the response haha
03:47 erlehmann i usually use python, but i have also written elixir and typescript
03:47 MTDiscord <Jordach> >no bugs, except for the spider nest that setup shop to eat the other bugs
03:48 erlehmann no i literally exercize all code paths in the testing. the app has only several thousand paths through it, so it ought to catch them all.
03:48 erlehmann it also takes half an hour
03:48 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Okay cool, do you have some examples of good tests you have written or seen in the wild that you recommend that we utilize to defend minetest against bad PRs?  Testing all paths works if you don't have to support arbitrary user input
03:48 erlehmann and also at runtime i check every input and every output of each function that is called externally against a context-free or regular grammar
03:49 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Gotcha, so you used test everything and restrict to sanitary input. Makes sense
03:49 erlehmann i.e. you hand me base64? it will first go to a function that determines if it is actually base64 encoded data, only then i try to decode.
03:49 erlehmann also a function bugs out if its output does not match what i intended
03:50 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Give us some examples for minetest that could use that sort of testing so we can add them
03:50 erlehmann therefore during testing i called every function with every possible value, which took long
03:50 MTDiscord <exe_virus> I think you are plenty zealous about it to have good suggestions for them
03:50 MTDiscord <exe_virus> (don't make our CI run for 24 hours, that's expensive)
03:50 erlehmann ok, so you know where you put mapblock coords in to get mapblock seed?
03:50 erlehmann there is a limited number of u16 and floats, so you can test them all
03:51 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> erlehmann, it's fixed, finally. I realized at long last that a tests/empty/empty directory has to exist for it to work.
03:51 erlehmann wait i look for evidence so you do not think i am joking
03:51 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Sure, what would you expect to see from that? Also exhaustive testing is expensive
03:51 erlehmann exe_virus https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/theres-only-four-billion-floatsso-test-them-all/
03:51 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Right, per function, in our codebase, per PR, that's... A lot
03:52 erlehmann basically i actually know that minetest is bad at boundary checking, so you only need to figure out interesting valuess
03:52 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Off to bed. Goodnight.
03:52 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Kk, that's much*** more reasonable
03:52 erlehmann exe_virus good, cheap, fast, choose maximum 2
03:52 erlehmann but in my experience, it is still faster to add exhaustive tests than to fix the bugs
03:52 erlehmann like if you have a schedule, you can deliver on schedule
03:53 MTDiscord <exe_virus> I'm also going to bed, but for your specific example could you find those magic numbers? No need to write C++ but pseudo code would be helpful.   I'm not great at writing tests so I'm trying to see how you would personally like to see it done with our codebase
03:53 erlehmann exe_virus, take the biome seed bug
03:54 erlehmann exe_virus wait, i give you a much better example. take any of the files i submitted that crashed minetest until sfan5 limited texture size.
03:54 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Unfamiliar with 99.9% of our bugs, I'm new to the dev side of the engine sorry
03:54 erlehmann exe_virus making them test cases is guaranteed to help. they will never have to be modified.
03:54 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Gotcha, so test extreme values
03:54 erlehmann and 100% prevent re-introducing the crash
03:54 erlehmann no, test *known* bugs
03:55 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Ah
03:55 erlehmann you start with requiring a test for every regression
03:55 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Okay so ad hoc, that's generally cheap
03:55 erlehmann that way you quickly get a bunch of interesting values
03:55 erlehmann and can extrapolate from that
03:55 erlehmann yeah
03:55 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Though it does lead to the 20 cases needing updated for one small directory change thing sometimes
03:55 erlehmann and it is not hard, bc the person fixing the bug usually knows how to triggr it
03:55 MTDiscord <exe_virus> We'll just have to be careful to keep the tests from being fragile
03:55 erlehmann well, the regression should *never* occur again
03:56 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Sometimes it has to
03:56 MTDiscord <exe_virus> That's the nature of coding
03:56 erlehmann so if it is fragile, the regression test is bullshit
03:56 erlehmann have an example?
03:56 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Formspecs
03:56 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Version updates
03:56 MTDiscord <exe_virus> New mechanics there
03:56 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Also mapgen, being multithreaded
03:56 erlehmann if you do version updates, not changing the original test case ensures that you do them in a backwards compatible way
03:56 MTDiscord <exe_virus> That changes tests
03:57 erlehmann uh mapgen is already not deterministic
03:57 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Formspecs have an expected replacement that will invalidate a lot of the test cases
03:57 MTDiscord <exe_virus> It could be deterministic, but that's a different consideration
03:57 erlehmann well, the thing is, your test cases are a stand-in for all the mods you break
03:57 erlehmann so if you break a bunch of formspec tests, you break a bunch of mods
03:57 erlehmann lets not do that
03:57 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Right, but sometimes you need to break mods
03:57 MTDiscord <exe_virus> And the test needs to be invalid
03:57 erlehmann sometimes, ideally you find a way to not do it
03:58 erlehmann for example, instead of changing a function with buggy behaviour that ppl rely on, introduce a new one
03:58 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Sometimes possible, sometimes not. Good example is deprecation
03:58 MTDiscord <exe_virus> We deprecate a lot of things
03:58 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Keeping around buggy code make maintainability a nightmare
03:58 erlehmann yeah and honestly, you could have a test case there that helps
03:59 erlehmann for example, scan the contentdb for any occurence of the deprecated function
03:59 erlehmann that is a simple to write test
03:59 erlehmann and basically guarantees that you'll not break too much accidentally
03:59 MTDiscord <exe_virus> That's expensive, and fragile due to dependency and not knowing how each mod works
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04:00 MTDiscord <exe_virus> We can't test those mods, only startup a new world and if nothing crashes then... Success? Bad test
04:00 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Mediocre test**
04:00 erlehmann no, you can make an AST from the lua and figure out if the function is called
04:00 erlehmann look, if you want to deprecate stuff, you have to be *really* sure it is actually obsolete once you remove it
04:01 erlehmann everything else is a “fuck you” to users
04:01 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Maybe it really is obsolete but someone likes the format because they hate change?
04:01 erlehmann as if
04:01 erlehmann come on
04:01 MTDiscord <exe_virus> For example, .b3d is bad
04:01 MTDiscord <exe_virus> It's just a plain all around mediocre formst
04:01 erlehmann it is used all over the place, tough shit
04:01 MTDiscord <exe_virus> If we supported a modern one like .gtlf or collada, we should deprecate it
04:02 erlehmann you can introduce better stuff, but as long as ppl use it, if you rip it out you sabotage their stuff
04:02 erlehmann collada support was actually ripped out lol, no xml
04:02 erlehmann i think
04:02 MTDiscord <exe_virus> True, go talk to Google or other open source projects that sometime require that
04:02 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Android updates occur, apps move on, your phone is obsolete
04:02 erlehmann no i mean in minetest. the xml support was removed.
04:03 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Oh sure, it'll be back when we have a good use case
04:03 erlehmann exe_virus look at the web for that. chromium recently tried to remove alert() from javascript lol, it broke a bunch of big websites.
04:03 MTDiscord <exe_virus> True, they've removed all sorts of things... Flash?
04:03 erlehmann basically, you have to support widely used stuff forever unless you can automate the transition or justify its exclusion
04:03 erlehmann flash was never part of the web
04:03 MTDiscord <exe_virus> It was though
04:03 erlehmann and alert() is literally the first thing js coders leern lol
04:04 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Everyone used it
04:04 erlehmann well it did not run on iphone
04:04 erlehmann or elinks
04:04 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Which wasn't the web haha
04:04 erlehmann but yes removing flash was bad for users prob
04:04 MTDiscord <exe_virus> It was
04:04 erlehmann now the flash games do not work
04:04 MTDiscord <exe_virus> But it was good that it was removed
04:04 erlehmann yeah because it was insecure and not portable
04:04 MTDiscord <exe_virus> (you can still run all of them)
04:04 erlehmann but b3d is not it
04:04 MTDiscord <exe_virus> B3d is a source of crashes
04:05 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Got lots of files that break it
04:05 erlehmann good test cases then
04:05 MTDiscord <exe_virus> It's a fragile format
04:05 erlehmann not necessarily
04:05 erlehmann can it be validated against a context-free or regular or calc-regular grammar
04:05 erlehmann anything xml-based is context-sensitive btw
04:05 erlehmann because ids need to be unique
04:06 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Why does context break or fix things?
04:06 erlehmann can't parse that context-free
04:06 erlehmann LANGSEC basically
04:06 MTDiscord <exe_virus> So basically just throw out anything that can't be processed context free?
04:06 erlehmann basically everything that is too complex to not be valitated by a deterministic pushdown automaton is a security risk by design or something
04:07 erlehmann calc-regular stuff works, but yes. you basically can't validate a bunch of file formats, so you can *never* parse them provably correctly.
04:07 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Sigh, we're an open source game engine, we make tradeoffs
04:07 erlehmann i actually work in IT security
04:07 erlehmann the only way to be sure is to specify your data formats
04:07 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Right, you don't have that luxury
04:07 erlehmann no i mean, i do make tradeoffs
04:08 erlehmann work means that
04:08 erlehmann otherwise you end up with a stone without power
04:08 erlehmann the brick is 100% is unhackable
04:08 erlehmann but not functional
04:08 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Lol
04:08 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Great analogy
04:09 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Alrighty I'll go to bed on that one, do keep up your enthusiasm, it'll probably help our codebase, just expect more pushback:)
04:09 MTDiscord <exe_virus> (tests are good, just don't go crazy)
04:09 erlehmann exe_virus the thing with the context-free or regular or calc-regular stuff is that even IT students or math ppl do not “get” it on an intuitive level that it works
04:09 erlehmann ppl think it limits you much more than it actually does
04:10 erlehmann but for that you have to try
04:10 erlehmann it is similar to TDD (writing tests before the implementation), ppl usually need to try it to figure out that it saves time AND makes better APIs (since the test uses the API)
04:10 erlehmann they almost never believe it without trying it
04:11 erlehmann exe_virus honestly i would already be happier if each bugfix absolutely needd a regression test
04:11 erlehmann but i bet even that is too much for ppl
04:12 erlehmann > do keep up your enthusiasm, it'll probably help our codebase, just expect more pushback:)
04:12 erlehmann well, i am already complaining a lot, i think i won't do it for a while
04:12 erlehmann but i'll be back :P
04:12 MTDiscord <exe_virus> :thumbs up:
04:12 erlehmann did you read the float article btw?
04:12 erlehmann it is really funny
04:13 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Yeah we call that good code design (no article has to wait till lunch tomorrow)
04:13 erlehmann like they tested all floats with ceil, floor, and round
04:13 erlehmann and found that a bunch of libraries literally can't do math
04:14 erlehmann > _mm_ceil_ps2 claimed to handle all numbers in the range of 32-bit integers, which is already ignoring about 38% of floating-point numbers. Even in that limited range it had 872,415,233 errors – that’s a 33% failure rate over the 2,650,800,128 floats
04:15 erlehmann so if even rounding functions can benefit from a bit of testing …
04:16 erlehmann btw, minetest def has what looks like floating point bugs
04:16 erlehmann but lets discuss that some time later
04:53 erlehmann <erlehmann> basically everything that is too complex to not be valitated by a deterministic pushdown automaton is a security risk by design or something
04:54 erlehmann this should have beenn
04:54 erlehmann basically everything that is too complex to be valitated by a deterministic pushdown automaton is a security risk by design or something
04:54 erlehmann sorry sleepy
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08:24 sfan5 <erlehmann> i am not saying it is malicious, but it is creating a lot of work
08:24 sfan5 that's a funny thing to say, you are creating that work yourself by wanting to get the tests we inherited from Irrlicht running
08:26 sfan5 and if you "just want a working minetest version on my hardware" you must have missed the possibility of compiling the latest commit of both Minetest and IrrlichtMt
08:51 sfan5 merging #11716 in 10m
08:51 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11716 -- Fix no_texture.png activation w/ simple leaves by Wuzzy2
08:56 sfan5 also sprunge.us/Yhhdif?diff at the same time
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11:16 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> ./util/bump_release.sh fails when going from 5.4.1 -> 5.4.2
11:16 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> it tries to release 5.4.1 again
11:37 sfan5 do you really need to run that
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12:09 rubenwardy yeah, probably easier to do it manually
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14:00 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> pak and npk archives do not work in Irrlicht, did we remove support for them?
14:01 sfan5 yes
14:08 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Did we also remove lzma compression?
14:09 sfan5 yes
14:17 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> What are your thoughts on readding some of the Irrlicht unit tests, sfan?
14:19 sfan5 if they work and are properly integrated they can be readded
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14:32 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> There was a test commented out which fails. It looks like a memory error, because the filename it finds is gibberish bytes.
14:42 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Maybe I logged it incorrectly. I'll have to investigate that later.
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16:38 erlehmann sfan5, your argument can prove that i could be a hypocrite, but not that i am wrong
16:39 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> #11656 needs another approval
16:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11656 -- Add variable to use existing IrrlichtMt build by JosiahWI
16:41 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> erlehmann, do you want to debug (or rewrite) a failing test for archive creation/reading?
16:44 erlehmann josiah_wi what archive? do we need the feature?
16:44 erlehmann josiah_wi is it pk3 support?
16:48 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> The test is not commented and doesn't explain its purpose. It's called testMountFile, and it was commented out because it was running before another test that fails if archives are already mounted. It broke after I changed the ordering of the tests.
16:48 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I've published my GPG key to keyring.debian.org. Thank you for letting me know I should do that.
16:48 erlehmann if the ordering of tests makes some of them fail, they are fragile
16:49 erlehmann can you somehow make the tests into separate binaries?
16:50 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Right, that's a bad sign, especially since other developers are concerned about how fragile the tests are. Making separate binaries would be a bit of work because there's one main file that runs all of the tests.
16:52 erlehmann “other developers are concerned about how fragile the tests are” not more fragile than the rest of the code. compile minetest with asan or msan or ubsan or thread sanitizer and you see that it is full of holes.
16:52 erlehmann and irrlicht proper is even worse ig
16:52 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I do not know what is considered a good test framework, so maybe someone who does could provide input about how to structure the tests well.
16:53 erlehmann well, i want them separate binaries so you can run them separately and compile with ubsan etc.
16:53 erlehmann as it stands now, one test failing too hard masks all later ones
16:54 erlehmann like, segfaulting
16:54 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> erlehmann, I have been given the green light to PR unit tests. I want to do a good job, and I want to compromise to work with developers (who also happen to be way more experienced than I am) instead of getting in an argument. I know you're interested in the test structure and maybe getting your regression tests in, so we should discuss that, but let's try to be polite to the other developers even where we disagree.
16:54 erlehmann to answer your question, i am not willing to make a test work that no one knows what its for
16:54 erlehmann but i am willing to help you with debugging why it does not work ;)
16:55 erlehmann compromising with developers is a given ofc if you want your PR merged
16:56 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> We should get the test structure right before making too many tests, I think. The developers who wrote the tests designed it so that you could turn off all the tests with an ifdef and run single tests for debugging instead. (See the comment in main.cpp)
16:56 erlehmann for me, the regression tests are definitely a case of “if the regression happens again, the other tests should still run”
16:56 erlehmann yeah that is kinda bad for CI though
16:56 MTDiscord <luatic> Tests should be independent where possible
16:56 erlehmann this
16:56 erlehmann test order should not matter, or how many you run
16:56 MTDiscord <luatic> Although I imagine the Minetest way of fixing a SEGFAULTing test case would be to outcomment it ;)
16:57 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Luatic, should we put a main() function in every test file? I can do that.
16:57 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> > test order should not matter
16:57 erlehmann luatic no, to declare the code path unsupported :P
16:57 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> There is literally a comment explaining why one test should be run first to verify the working directory hahaha.
16:57 erlehmann josiah_wi that one is meant well, but mostly serves to explain that all other tests would fail anyway ig?
16:58 erlehmann it is not that the first test sets up something important for other tests, right?
16:58 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Yeah, and it shouldn't be hard to run it first anyway.
16:58 erlehmann > a main() function in every test file? I can do that.
16:58 erlehmann ye
16:58 erlehmann yes
17:01 erlehmann > We should get the test structure right before making too many tests, I think.
17:01 erlehmann i agree
17:07 MTDiscord <luatic> I've written a PNG decoder now and am testing it using PngSuite
17:12 erlehmann nice
17:13 erlehmann all the png test images should probably be in a test
17:13 erlehmann oh also think of parametrized subtests
17:13 erlehmann is it acceptable that no more png images are tested if one is failing?
17:14 erlehmann luatic did you test the lua png thingy against the builtin implementation?
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17:34 MTDiscord <luatic> no, not yet; but I compared implementations and am confident that mine is correct
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17:38 erlehmann luatic to become truly confident in your code you must become the code
17:38 erlehmann t. bruce lee
17:39 erlehmann how did you compare without a test case, transliterate the code?
17:39 erlehmann also what is correct? surely you both make correct PNGs, but is it equivalent?
17:49 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> wipes sweat off brow
17:50 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> First time ever writing a function for C++ codebase of Irrlicht or Minetest haha.
17:50 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I should probably get this reviewed before writing the test cases for it.
17:51 erlehmann which function?
17:51 erlehmann honestly, you should write the test case *first*
17:52 erlehmann then write the minimal amount of code to make it pass
17:52 erlehmann this may seem a bit weird, but if your function is then not perfect, you need more tests
17:52 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> The function to execute a test case.
17:52 erlehmann cycle ad nauseum
17:52 erlehmann ah ok lol
17:53 erlehmann well you need a single test that is an expected success and a single expected failure i guess
17:53 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I've slaughtered the log file, I'm afraid. Not sure how important that is/was.
17:54 erlehmann most important is having stuff in separate files honestly
17:54 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I also removed the parallelism and counting failed tests, because ctest does both of those itself.
17:54 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Separate files is different than separate binaries. All the tests were in separate files to start with.
17:55 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> What I'm doing now is compiling a separate binary for each test case, which I'm a little queasy about, but it works so I won't complain.
17:57 erlehmann ah separate binaries yes
17:57 erlehmann that is what i mean
17:57 erlehmann what is your prob with separate binary for each test case?
17:58 MTDiscord <luatic> Hmm, it looks like I'm expected to correct gamma 🤔
18:01 erlehmann luatic you are
18:01 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> erlehmann, I pushed the new test design. You can look at it if you're curious.
18:02 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'll add the other tests I had back in after I eat.
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18:22 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Oh my. I know you were joking erlehmann, but... your joke has come true.
18:23 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> The color test has spaces for indentation.
18:23 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> The other tests so far use tabs.
18:25 erlehmann absolutely haram
18:25 erlehmann add a linter to the test cases i guess
18:25 erlehmann if you feel strongly about it
18:26 erlehmann it reminds me of that tv scene where the guy breaks up with the girl bc one of them uses tabs and the other one uses spaces
18:26 erlehmann he falls down the stairs trying to leave
18:26 erlehmann she asks what happens
18:26 erlehmann he said he tried to take 8 stairs at the same time
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18:33 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Why are there empty lines at the end of some of the source files? If I accidentally remove those will I wreck some tool or system?
18:35 MTDiscord <luatic> What series is that? It sounds fun.
18:38 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> there should be a single empty line at the end of every source file, and yes its so old tools dont break
18:39 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> it is also nice for qol when seeking to eof or concating multiple files
18:43 * Pexin tries to count the number of the word "test" in the past few hours of chatlog. Pexin fails.
18:44 MTDiscord <Jonathon> just wget the files from irc.minetest.net, then grep + count
18:45 erlehmann Pexin testing is very important and, most importantly, FUN.
18:45 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> 18 tests passing. x)
18:45 erlehmann there are whole computer games about testing
18:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> 18 out of?
18:46 erlehmann like portal
18:46 Pexin you know how when you hear a word too much and it starts to sound weird
18:46 erlehmann GreenXenith originally irrlicht had like >70 tests or so, of which i was able to figure >50 out before it was botched
18:46 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Just 18, green. I started by disabling all the tests, and I'm enabling them one by one.
18:46 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Pexin: semantic satiation
18:47 cheapie Pexin: Starting at about the point the test spew started:
18:47 cheapie $ grep -i test test.log | wc -l
18:47 cheapie 145
18:47 erlehmann don't believe me, research yourself. josiah_wi will not add all of those anyway.
18:47 erlehmann “banana” is the best word for semantic satiation IMO. i start to writing banene.
18:47 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Test 21 is the first test that does not pass, and it probably isn't worth trying to figure out why because the part that's broken was disabled originally anyway.
18:47 erlehmann bananana sha dubi dubi
18:48 erlehmann josiah_wi anything is worth figuring out
18:48 erlehmann show test 21 pls
18:48 erlehmann i'll look into it
18:48 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> One sec. I want to push the simple tests and then I'll readd the filesystem tests.
18:50 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Also I just want to mention, watching it spit out 18 executables one by one is a little bit weird. I feel like with even 20-30 tests this could get frustrating.
18:53 Pexin when I was a C++ lab grader, our auto-reportgen script compiled 3 course sections of about 30 students each and ran test cases on each exe. sometimes a student left in an infinite loop and we'd come in the morning and be AAAAAAAAAAAA, kill process, do tests on remaining students! aaaaaaaaa!
18:53 Pexin on the department server
18:54 Pexin after the first or second time, we adjusted the script to timeout if test took too long   :|
18:55 specing right, you didn't consider this as a problem when initially developing it ?!
18:55 Pexin never underestimate the negligence of first year students..
18:56 MTDiscord <luatic> Passing tests are peak satisfaction.
19:00 erlehmann > sometimes a student left in an infinite loop and we'd come in the morning and be AAAAAAAAAAAA, kill process, do tests on remaining students! aaaaaaaaa!
19:00 erlehmann LOL
19:00 erlehmann Pexin timeout(1) is a godsend!
19:00 erlehmann by which i mean, god's end ;)
19:00 erlehmann <josiah_wi> Also I just want to mention, watching it spit out 18 executables one by one is a little bit weird. I feel like with even 20-30 tests this could get frustrating.
19:00 erlehmann compile faster?
19:01 erlehmann i mean what else should it do, build in parallel?
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19:05 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> erlehmann, I've pushed the broken test. I left it where it originally was, so the test technically works, but the test after it fails.
19:06 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> It's the function testMountFile in tests/archiveReader.cpp. The test is called testArchiveReader.
19:06 erlehmann why though
19:06 erlehmann why does the test break the one after it?
19:06 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Because the test after it checks whether an archive is mounted and fails if one is lol.
19:07 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> And the mountFile test doesn't clean up after itself, presumably because the test after it is the one that tests cleanig up LOL.
19:07 erlehmann that is fragile
19:07 erlehmann extremly so
19:07 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I thought "ok just switch the order of the tests" but if you do that then the mountFile test goes boom for some reason.
19:07 erlehmann classic example of why test cases should be in separate binaries
19:07 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> So if you want to try to figure out what's going on, I'll be happy to try to write up a solution.
19:08 erlehmann we are witnessing an accidental dependency
19:08 erlehmann i can try
19:08 erlehmann give me a bit of timee
19:08 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Uh, these are like sections of a test case.
19:08 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> If every single test performed were it's own binary we'd easily have over 300 I estimate.
19:09 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> And that would be unreasonale.
19:10 erlehmann it would not be unreasonable, but these seem to comprise a single test case though
19:10 erlehmann setup, test, cleanup
19:12 erlehmann josiah_wi if you think testing a lot is unreasonable, consider the following: you are writing a function that adds two signed numbers in C++. to ensure that it *never* behaves in an unexpected way, will the tests have more or less lines of code than the function?
19:13 erlehmann i am convinced the tests will have at least about the same amount of code, most likely more
19:14 erlehmann unless you have a framework like python's hypothesis that solves this for you
19:14 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> No, I'm saying building a seperate binary for every single assertion is unreasonable.
19:14 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> separate*
19:15 erlehmann no you should build a separate binary for every test case
19:15 erlehmann a test can have multiple assertions
19:15 erlehmann but it should be clear what is tested
19:15 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ok, that's fine. Yeah, I'm assuming here that every file the authors made is one test case.
19:15 erlehmann like all of them should lead back to a common cause
19:15 erlehmann in case of the addition thought experiment, you'd assert a lot of stuff
19:16 erlehmann oh btw
19:16 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Right, that makes sense. We are on the same page then.
19:16 erlehmann josiah_wi i strongly suggest to implement a mechanism in your cmake thingy to build the tests with different compiler options in an automated way
19:16 erlehmann you may remember, i already found out that the biome code is optimization-unstable
19:17 erlehmann this is a way to find bugs easily
19:17 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Because I made a macro to register the tests it is difficult to build one test with options different than the others.
19:17 erlehmann the test cases must pass at ALL optimization level
19:17 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> However I was just thinking about this, and I can add parameters to the macro.
19:17 erlehmann otherwise it is illegal c++ most likely
19:17 erlehmann different compilers also btw
19:18 erlehmann but that is another issue
19:18 erlehmann i bet minetest has more cases where clang++ compiles it different than g++
19:18 sfan5 it looks like you're building something overengieered that will never be finished, have fun
19:18 erlehmann (than the biome code)
19:19 erlehmann sfan5 pretty sure josiah_wi is on the right track here and you are not seeing the benefits until it benefits you personally
19:19 sfan5 I don't remember questioning the benefits
19:20 erlehmann well once josiah_wi has that macro, i can make the tests run with different sanitizer options
19:20 erlehmann which will probably reveal a host of bugs in irrlicht
19:20 erlehmann or a nest of bugs? how do you say in english
19:20 erlehmann also you can add that to your CI
19:21 sfan5 the CI would never succeed again
19:21 erlehmann for the ppl worried about testing “all floats”, the blog post i linked last night asserted it took 90 seconds for them
19:21 erlehmann sfan5 you have low confidence in the tests
19:21 erlehmann or in the codebase
19:22 erlehmann sfan5 btw i think adding the regressions i found for the stuff you fixed regarding image loaders is good, do you see any bad thing with it?
19:22 erlehmann i mean adding the regression tests
19:22 erlehmann could anything bad happen if you require that for each bugfix?
19:23 erlehmann after all, you wouldn't fix a bug if you can not trigger it
19:23 erlehmann so you must have the test case
19:23 erlehmann little additional work
19:23 erlehmann for great benefit
19:23 sfan5 that's great, I'll ask you to write the tests then
19:23 erlehmann i will
19:24 erlehmann for stuff i find ofc
19:24 erlehmann or found
19:24 erlehmann it is a much better way than requiring ppl to download mods from github issues
19:24 erlehmann and load them
19:24 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> erlehmann, please keep in mind I want to listen to sfan5s advice and keep under his instruction here.
19:24 sfan5 write one for this commit https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/commit/57ff34b1edb3e477b811ddf1165aa360a2e3eda6
19:24 erlehmann well sfan5 just agreed with me, so i think we are good :D
19:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> If sfan5 has a way he prefers this to be done that's going to be important to me because he's mostly in charge of what gets merged.
19:25 erlehmann sfan5 that is not a bug i found, so i can not agree it
19:25 sfan5 okay
19:25 sfan5 then no test
19:25 sfan5 if you are not willing to do the "little" additional work we won't have tests
19:25 erlehmann sfan5, i have literally no idea how to trigger it, do you?
19:25 sfan5 end of story
19:26 erlehmann look usually either the person finding the bug or the person doing the bugfix is writing a test case (that is how it is at my work)
19:26 erlehmann so i am only saying i write tests for stuff i find
19:26 sfan5 will you pay me then?
19:26 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I guess if I want tests I'll have to write a test for that PR.
19:26 erlehmann why should i pay you for writing tests myself?
19:26 erlehmann i am confused
19:27 sfan5 you keep filling this channel with bullshit and complains about things not being they way you want
19:27 sfan5 and then YOU do not want to put in the work to get it that way
19:27 sfan5 complaints*
19:27 erlehmann i offered to add regression test and asked you about what would happen if they were required
19:27 sfan5 yes
19:27 sfan5 there is nothing wrong with your question but I'm having no more of your bullshit
19:27 erlehmann i want to put in the work for stuff i know, but it is unreasonable to ask me to write a test for code i do not know for a bug i have not investigated
19:28 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I'd actually like to talk to sfan5 about testing a bit without erlehmann's interruption.
19:28 erlehmann ok!
19:28 erlehmann i be silent
19:28 sfan5 no, I will go and do something else now
19:28 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ok, you got it. I'll get back to work.
19:29 erlehmann well then … josiah_wi do you think the test thing is good enough i can add regression tests for the stuff i found regarding image loading? the oversized PNG & BMP?
19:29 erlehmann or is it too early?
19:30 erlehmann in case of no answer i'll wait until the testing PR is merged
19:30 erlehmann i do not wish to endanger its chances
19:30 erlehmann by meddling more
19:33 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> erlehmann, I have added a variable you can set -DUNITTEST_FLAGS to add compilation flags to all the unit tests. Modifying flags on a single unit test is not something developers will normally want to do, so I do not think it deserves a special configuration. You can use add_compile_options to add flags to a single unit test by its target name.
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19:35 erlehmann josiah_wi i don't want to change flags on a single unit test, i want to run all of them normally, then with ubsan, then with asan usw.
19:35 erlehmann the sanitizers are incompatible with each other
19:36 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ah great, -DUNITTEST_FLAGS will work then.
19:36 erlehmann also i want to run all of them with -O0, -O1, -O2, -O3, to make sure something like the biome code returning different seeds at all optimization levels is excluded 100%
19:36 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Once I push it, that is.
19:36 erlehmann nice thx
19:36 erlehmann tell me once it is there so i can try that
19:36 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Be aware that standard CMake flags and CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS will also affect unit test compilation.
19:37 erlehmann requiring all sanitizers to not warn will be good payoff for little benefit i think
19:37 erlehmann ok
19:37 erlehmann but shouldn't it be named UNITTEST_CXX_FLAGS then?
19:37 erlehmann after all, you could have other stuff set for unittests
19:38 erlehmann or even UNITTEST_CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS if you want to handle it by prefix, dunno
19:38 erlehmann i am not knowledgeful enough to know what would be good
19:38 erlehmann you know about cmake so i trust you it will be right
19:41 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Ok, everything is ready, I'm taking a break.
19:41 erlehmann yay
19:41 erlehmann you do good work!
19:41 erlehmann cora told me also that you help people with dragonfire :)
19:43 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I was on the support team briefly, but I am not currently associated with them.
19:43 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I wouldn't be so quick to say my work is good. I think that's for the core devs to judge.
19:46 erlehmann josiah_wi you are determined to get to a goal and listen to everyone, that is a good quality
19:46 erlehmann i'd like to know some opinions about testing from someone except sfan5 actually
19:47 erlehmann i mean “CI would never pass again” is probably not the future mt is headed
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19:48 erlehmann towards
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20:07 sfan5 I said that because sanitizers (judging by the results I've seen so far) tend to reveal a lot of bugs that are of low severity and possibly don't even affect day-to-day usage of Minetest
20:10 erlehmann well, ubsan has no false positives
20:10 MTDiscord <Jonathon> you want opinions from people other than sfan5? tests are useful abut at this point your talking here is turning into bullshit rants about wanting stuff but not wanting to put that much work into it yourself or excuses why
20:11 erlehmann ok
20:11 erlehmann hey i told you i make tests for bugs i know one the test PR is accepted, measure me by that pls
20:12 sfan5 erlehmann: that does not change my statement in any way nor did I imply otherwise
20:13 erlehmann well i get it, the bugs are interesting from my “the program must do the same under all circumstances POV”, but not from your “do users notice it?” POV
20:13 erlehmann that is why we agree on tests regarding crashes, but on barely anything else
20:13 erlehmann right?
20:13 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> "the program must do the same under all circumstances POV" Is that even possible once GPUs get involved?
20:14 MTDiscord <Hugues Ross> Like, not even multi-billion dollar companies manage that
20:14 erlehmann Hugues Ross i think most companies just don't see the value in it. aerospace and banking are *much* more careful than FAANG companies
20:15 erlehmann and even then you get boeing 747 max (which was a management/human error more than a software one)
20:15 MTDiscord <Jonathon> you mean the 737 max?
20:16 erlehmann oh yes, sorry. i am not careful
20:16 erlehmann the one whomst crashed
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20:18 erlehmann regarding the small things that are not noticeable, i already know how to pull values out of RAM from the game proper and write them, but i was not able to do that in a way to not crash the game (and i have looked at related issues, so ig it is so far out no one would believe it is possible). once i have an exploit, you get it.
20:18 MTDiscord <Jonathon> on a random tangent, its rather funny you imply sfan5 doesnt care about tests, but https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/commit/770601dd5d6ed899c191aff4be2a94a8722b3b1b exists
20:19 sfan5 not the best example given the amount of tests and that WorldEdit was without any for years
20:19 erlehmann Jonathon sfan5 cares about a different level of scrutiny regarding testing than i do
20:19 erlehmann i believe it will all work out
20:19 erlehmann neither will everything be blocked, nor will there be “too many fragile tests”
20:19 erlehmann (bc someone would have to write them)
20:19 MTDiscord <Jonathon> sfan5: fair enough, was the most recent testing thing i recall you doing
20:21 erlehmann sfan5, i like the WE tests
20:22 erlehmann can any mod do minetest.forceload_block?
20:25 sfan5 sure
20:25 erlehmann big oof
20:25 sfan5 but the amount is globally limited to 10 blocks
20:25 sfan5 I can see why that was done but it's extremely in the way
20:26 erlehmann from having cloned the repo, what is the fastest way to get to run the test cases? https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/blob/master/.util/run_tests.sh needs ../../bin/minetestserver and is prob not the entry point
20:27 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i assume the ideal way would be to calculate max forceload blocks would be a percentage of available ram?
20:27 sfan5 the script works if you indeed have ../../bin/minetestserver, for what github does check .github/workflows/
20:27 erlehmann ok
20:35 erlehmann sfan5 here is a tiny patch to the script, just pipe it into “git am” https://mister-muffin.de/p/oGcQ.diff
20:35 erlehmann “git am” will automatically make the commit
20:36 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> >but the amount is globally limited to 10 blocks
20:36 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> that explains why my mod to turn the world on its side choked hard
20:37 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> is that even documented
20:37 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i dont think so
20:37 erlehmann GreenXenith lol which mod
20:37 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> obviously not released since it doesnt work
20:38 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L6037-L6047 well, if its documented, its not documented in a sane place
20:40 erlehmann sfan5, do you appreciate it? in that case i deliver more small fixe
20:40 erlehmann s
20:44 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Cool, Irrlicht has its own atof implementation which is faster only in Release configuration. And if it isn't fast enough it fails a unit test.
20:44 erlehmann wait i had that thing too
20:45 erlehmann it was randomly failing
20:45 erlehmann why does it have that anyway
20:45 x2048 Hey everyone, I'd like to know more about situation with shadow mapping. Is it fine to keep working on fixes such as GLES 2.0 shaders or are we waiting for the new rendering pipeline?
20:50 sfan5 x2048: yes that's fine
20:51 sfan5 erlehmann: thanks but I don't think that'll ever end up being a problem
20:51 sfan5 (just like I didn't quote $tempdir)
20:52 erlehmann sfan5, tempdir is a fixed value though
20:52 erlehmann sfan5 i am tired of discussion, but will you apply it or not?
20:53 sfan5 I don't plan to
20:53 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Apply what? Why are you bringing this up again if you're tired of it?
20:54 erlehmann josiah_wi i provided a very small fix to https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEdit/blob/master/.util/run_tests.sh because there is a variable that is not set in the script, so it may come from outside, so it may introduce errors if it ever contains a character in $IFS (like a space, tab, newline)
20:54 erlehmann just quoting the variable
20:55 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Why telling me? Not even my script.
20:55 sfan5 you asked?
20:55 erlehmann because you asked?
20:55 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Oh, that, I see.
20:56 erlehmann sfan5 are you even the right person to send this patch to? like is there someone else who should know?
20:56 erlehmann (i thought: you did the last commit on this)
20:57 MTDiscord <Jonathon> seems #minetest is the correct place for this anyways
20:57 erlehmann yes correct
20:57 erlehmann sorry
20:57 sfan5 I doubt asking the second person with push access who hasn't committed to WorldEdit in years would help
20:57 erlehmann ok i give up then thx
20:58 erlehmann sfan5 if you ever make a shell script for the CI, shellcheck is a good linter. do not blindly follow its advice though. it will always tell you to quote all variables, even if you *want* to split them.
20:58 erlehmann it will also catch some other stuff btw
20:58 erlehmann (i hope that helps at some point in the future)
21:04 erlehmann sfan5 i understand your response as “don't send sfan5 bug fixes for really minor stuff” ig?
21:04 erlehmann correct?
21:04 erlehmann i don't want to put in work just to annoy you
21:05 sfan5 it's "don't send sfan5 correctness fixed he doesn't think are necessary" but not like you can find out without sending them to me first
21:05 sfan5 not a topic for here in either case, if you have anything else -> #minetest
21:06 erlehmann ok
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21:18 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Can someone confirm that the software driver, and Bunning's video driver were removed from Irrlicht?
21:18 sfan5 yes
21:18 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Burning's*
21:19 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Thank you.
21:20 erlehmann josiah_wi both did not work very well last time i checked and you can always get *VERY* slow software emulation with LIBGL_ALWAYS_SOFTWARE=1 if you need it
21:20 erlehmann like on CI
21:21 erlehmann josiah_wi if you want to see for yourself, in the examples folder should be some stuff that renders a scene with them, it looks just wrong
21:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I pushed a test testCursorSetInvisible that segfaults. It's commented out.
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22:09 josiah_wi #join minetest
22:09 josiah_wi bah, please forgive my interruption
22:33 x2048 #11331 and #11341 are a possible close (fixed by #11385), but I cannot tag them. Can someone help?
22:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11331 -- Mapped shadows grow faint with distance from the player.
22:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11341 -- Shadows are not filtered at distance (apparent with zoom)
22:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11385 -- Improve shadow rendering with non-default camera FOV by x2048
22:38 rubenwardy sfan5: should this release be 5.4.1-someExtra or 5.4.2-android or 5.4.2?
22:38 sfan5 5.4.2-android is my suggestion
22:39 rubenwardy OK, will versionExtra act as I expect, setting the part after -?
22:39 rubenwardy or would that just be present on the tag
22:41 sfan5 i'd only tag it like that
22:43 rubenwardy ok https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest/releases/tag/5.4.2-android
22:43 rubenwardy if you could look over the PR again
22:43 rubenwardy if it looks good, then merge into stable-5, tag, update playstore?
22:52 sfan5 if it's android only maybe don't touch  CMakeLists.txt and appdata.xml
22:52 sfan5 dunno
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23:02 rubenwardy it would be good to know if a desktop has is using 5.4.2, even if it's only really deployed to android
23:02 rubenwardy if it's merged tagged and/or merged into stable-5, that's a possibility
23:06 sfan5 good point
23:12 AliasAlreadyTake joined #minetest-dev
23:19 Extex joined #minetest-dev
23:31 erlehmann https://danluu.com/testing/

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