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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2021-09-17

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Time Nick Message
00:50 v-rob joined #minetest-dev
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01:36 erlehmann did i just find out that for image sizes around 16x16 it is actually possible to have TGA files that are the same size or smaller than PNG files? if not, what am i doing wrong? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11600#issuecomment-921380019
01:36 erlehmann to quote myself
01:36 erlehmann > I wonder, what if there was some kind of game in which many textures were so small?
01:40 erlehmann i suspect the reason may be that some constant PNG overhead is pretty good at eating up the relatively small efficiency gains – up until an image size of somewhere between 12×12 and 16×16. or maybe i am just doing it wrong?
01:42 erlehmann if i am wrong here, i would like to know how to improve the PNG in the example.
01:42 erlehmann if i am right, hecktest is just making up stuff, for the third time in a few days.
01:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> are you using gimp or something else for your png files?
01:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> are you compressing your png files with optipng?
01:44 erlehmann exe_virus i drew the smiley in gimp
01:45 MTDiscord <exe_virus> gimp by default adds a bunch of overhead to png
01:45 MTDiscord <exe_virus> like 6 KB by default or something
01:45 erlehmann tbh i tried to get something that was only 1 byte apart by default
01:45 erlehmann unlikely, because:
01:45 erlehmann The TGA file has 98 bytes (as saved by GIMP)
01:45 erlehmann The PNG file has 99 bytes (saved wtih GIMP, then used pngcrush)
01:45 MTDiscord <exe_virus> look at the pngs in minetest_game, and notice how they are all like 0.4kb haha
01:45 erlehmann there literally can not be 6KB of overhead
01:45 MTDiscord <exe_virus> pngcursh is why
01:45 MTDiscord <exe_virus> no worries
01:46 MTDiscord <exe_virus> but yeah TGA can be better in these really minute examples
01:46 erlehmann no, it was 101 bytes before pgcrush
01:46 MTDiscord <exe_virus> then you have a good gimp setup haha
01:46 MTDiscord <exe_virus> anyways, why are you worried about it? pngcrush and pngs are plenty small
01:47 MTDiscord <exe_virus> if we wanted better, we would use webp
01:47 MTDiscord <exe_virus> which is about 20% smaller on average in my experience
01:47 MTDiscord <exe_virus> we would also perhaps use draco 3d model compression....
01:48 MTDiscord <exe_virus> and a bunch of other file optimization stuff.... fluid synth support (midi), etc.
01:48 MTDiscord <exe_virus> luckily we are getting Z-standard compression soon 🙂
01:49 erlehmann exe_virus oh, i am not that worried. recently hecktest removed a bunch of stuff. most of that was not used, but TGA was. now TGA is added back in and hecktest bitched about it being super inefficient, while the truth seems to be, not only does it not really matter, but hecktest probably never tested that.
01:50 erlehmann honestly, hecktest seems like a person who casually makes shit up without and gets away with it.
01:50 erlehmann without actually expecting others to verify it
01:51 erlehmann i meant
01:51 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> When I started learning basic modding I used gimp and I didn't know about compressing PNG files. Is this documented somewhere for modders? If not is it worth documenting somewhere?
01:51 erlehmann josiah_wi both pngcrush with -brute option and optipng generate very good results
01:52 erlehmann commit 524442fc5e9bc64952301b9ba25aefb0d9bf781b suggests to use “optipng -o7 -strip all”
01:52 MTDiscord <exe_virus> it is worth documenting, and yes optipng and a script are included with minetest_game
01:52 erlehmann and now for the fun part
01:53 erlehmann you can run optipng on the 99 byte PNG, it does not get smaller
01:53 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Well, I never heard about it before, so I wonder how many mods have uncompressed PNGs.
01:53 MTDiscord <Jonathon> >honestly, hecktest seems like a person who casually makes shit up without and gets away with it. >without actually expecting others to verify it seems rather rude and wrong given that he has made long explanation posts
01:53 MTDiscord <exe_virus> sfan5: I have a proposal, copy pasting it here
01:55 MTDiscord <exe_virus> New Engine Proposal (please critique): --------------------------------------------- New Mapgen "vLua" (game level idea, not mod-level) --------------------------------------------- - Multithreaded, determinant (doesn't have to be, probably should be recommended that way haha) - Optional blocksize for generation - uses multiple lua-contexts (that are disconnected from the default one we use for normal mods) so that no mutexes are
01:55 MTDiscord required between thread generation (fast) and only for locking the map and writing the values at the end in C++ (blazingly fast) - the only information the engine provides at runtime is the current block size and X,Y,Z of the block - This would be provided by games in a new special "mapgen" folder at the top level (or specified folder via a game.conf) - Optional arguements like seed or so on could be provided with the game.conf so that the menu
01:55 MTDiscord settings dialog for a world provides the options in a scroll box. i.e. flexible arguments.  The goal here is to provide a way for game makers to invent lua mapgens that aren't slow by default, as right now all mapgens share a single lua context and have to wait on things such as globalsteps and whatnot that often are independent. This is by no means a solution to all lua-based mapgens, but it allows us to provide modders with a LOT more
01:55 MTDiscord flexibility in their mapgens.  Implementation detail: if game.conf specifies this mapgen, or somewhere in the menu this mapgen is specified, then a function becomes available called something like "register_mapgen(function())", where you provide the main mapgen function to execute. That function will hopefully be given a lua voxel manip for the region being generated and that's all the game designer needs to implement their mapgen code.
01:55 MTDiscord Thoughts? P.S. if we allow them to specify if their mapgen is determinant, then we could start doing delta-based maps
01:57 erlehmann Jonathon well, so far hecktest claimed a) no one used TGA (which was wrong) b) basically no computers without opengl 2.0 can comfortably run minetest (i am typing on one) c) TGA can never beat PNG (so i uploaded the example where it does). making long explanation posts is literally what i mean with making shit up.
01:57 erlehmann there are a bunch of smaller things as well, but let's leave it at that
01:57 erlehmann just having a “hunch” is not enough, you need to benchmark, benchmark, benchmark
01:58 specing I don't like that irrlicht was absorbed. I prefer if common code is maintained as that way projects need less manpower in general
01:58 erlehmann everyone else seems to be able to say “i don't know”, or “i assume”, but hecktest makes absolute statements that are demonstrably wrong
01:59 erlehmann Jonathon yes calling someone a liar is very rude. you are right. lying is also very rude.
02:02 erlehmann Jonathon the thing is, everyone else seems to not do stuff like that. but if you tolerate it, it is very bad.
02:03 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> specing, last I saw it hasn't been absorbed yet, but a lot of features were removed partly with that goal in mind.
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02:13 MTDiscord <exe_virus> irrlicht classic is dead, and we are an engine, so it makes sense to me
02:20 erlehmann so where are the new features?
02:20 erlehmann i only saw things being removed so far
02:20 erlehmann (and shadows, which suck, but is that irrlichts fault?)
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02:30 specing Shadows got removed?
02:30 erlehmann now, shadows is a new feature?
02:30 erlehmann that is what i meant
02:30 specing Well, port mt to Torque3D. I watched a video review of Uebergame (a libre Torque3D FPS) and the graphics are mindblowing
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02:31 specing There's no comparison in the libre world. Shadows on individual grass leaves, animated trees and leaves....
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02:34 specing I don't see why minetest has to be/have its own engine
02:34 specing waste of time
02:34 erlehmann specing, come on
02:34 erlehmann here is what will happen
02:35 erlehmann 1. hecktest will provid something actually working on most core devs machines
02:35 erlehmann 2. it will probably not work on machines of some people who do not have a say, those people will be ridiculed and declared legacy
02:35 erlehmann 3. minetest has its own engine, mostly unrelated to irrlicht
02:35 specing Ah yes, 90% of people here probably can't run Torque3D (me included) :D
02:38 specing I wish I'd have more incentive to actually get a real GPU...  99% libre games you can play with a 10 year old iGPU because the visuals are so poor
02:38 erlehmann specing, prepare to be declared legacy
02:38 erlehmann specing uh
02:38 specing oh, I *wish* I would be declared legacy
02:38 specing because that would mean that libre games actually progressed
02:38 erlehmann i think you have no idea what you are saying
02:39 erlehmann you want better graphics, not dropping support
02:39 erlehmann those two do not *have* to go hand in hand
02:39 specing instead of repeatedly poking their own engines in their own corners and never getting to the point of not being 10+ years outdated graphics-wise
02:40 specing erlehmann: they do, because nobody has the manpower to also support 15 yo hardware
02:40 erlehmann remind me again why you are playing with heavily pixelated virtual legos
02:40 specing guess why? Because everyone has to have their own engine!
02:40 erlehmann not really
02:40 Pexin what does "outdated" mean?
02:40 erlehmann it is mostly bad developers
02:40 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Ubergame looks..alright, I've seen better FOSS games tbh but it's decent for what it is
02:41 specing Which FOSS games were better?
02:41 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Cube 2 looks a good bit better as far as older FOSS FPS games go
02:41 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> IMO
02:41 specing Pexin: it means that the graphics look like from an AAA game from N years ago
02:41 erlehmann specing the vast majority of ppl who loudly claim “we need to throw out the legacy stuff only that way we can progress” are simply incapable of designing both forwards- and backwards-compatible code or data formats.
02:42 specing Cube 2 has better graphics than torque?
02:42 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Than Ubergame
02:42 Pexin remember morrowind? remember morrowind with an aesthetic facelift? the engine is not the thing holding graphic quality down
02:42 specing Last time I played assault cube, the avatars looked like moving garbage bags
02:42 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I've seen some good looking Torque games, but the engine does not make the game
02:42 erlehmann do you have any proof of that? please provide garbage_bag.md2
02:43 erlehmann what Benrob0329 says
02:43 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I've seen some good looking MT games as well, it's down to how you use the tools
02:43 specing erlehmann: I argue that the reason for that is simple: no manpower to support legacy hardware
02:44 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> People have been shouting at the MT devs to switch engines for years, the problem is that that would (probably) require more work than just cleaning up Irrlicht like what's being done now
02:44 erlehmann specing with what evidence
02:44 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Generally these shoutings come from people who don't understand game or graphics programming
02:45 Pexin FOSS games tend not to require top of the line hardware because FOSS games don't have a stake in pushing the sale of new hardware. commercial devs frequently have contracts with hardware manufacturers
02:45 erlehmann specing do you know xscreensaver collection maintained by jwz? that guy goes through ridiculous length to make it work on a wide range of hardware.
02:45 erlehmann specing and it's a single guy who's day job is managing a night club or so
02:45 erlehmann or rather night job lol
02:45 specing https://news-cdn.softpedia.com/images/news2/AssaultCube-Review-7.jpg
02:45 specing see how awful the graphics are
02:45 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Now I don't know what your experience is, but saying that we need to switch to a fundamentally different engine archatecture on a whim doesn't give me good feelings
02:46 specing polygonal scope, square floor lighting, ...
02:46 erlehmann surely specing is an experienced 3d engine coder with multiple AAA games on their belt
02:46 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163566800633906/888254470075605022/main_sauerbraten_wide.png
02:46 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Oh look, a less awful screenshot
02:46 specing erlehmann: I'm not, I'd just like to see better libre games
02:46 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Fancy that, not posting a terrible screenshot you found makes a game look better
02:47 erlehmann look if you want AAA you also have to force people into unpaid overtime and all that
02:47 erlehmann the toxicity of the work environment is a necessary ingredient for the look & feel of the engine
02:48 Pexin or, you just need enough coverage/popularity that a community of modders crowdsources your asset creation
02:48 specing Benrob those pictures are so far that you can't tell anything
02:48 erlehmann you think someone lying in an issue is wrong? imagine that someone is your manager and you get fired if you post the counterexample!
02:48 specing you can't tell how good the visual details are, I mean
02:48 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> What, do you want me to boot up Cube 2 and take a screenshot?
02:49 specing Yes, please
02:49 specing Show me how it's better :P
02:51 specing https://pic.infini.fr/cPoDcshq/R2UT3WgG.png
02:51 specing This is a screenshot from the stream
02:52 specing Look at those shadows, and those leaves. And how detailed the gun is
02:52 specing (though the latter is probably mostly artist work)
02:55 erlehmann specing i think you should watch this video https://yewtu.be/watch?v=2TNSaEJHBrQ
02:57 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163566800633906/888257248315449394/unknown.png
03:02 specing The fire looks pretty nice. Any shots of grass/trees outside?
03:09 Pexin as someone who thinks kotor's graphic quality is perfectly acceptable, I want to mention I'd prefer an engine that can handle large view distances and a very large number of autonomous objects, rather than graphical detail. but that's just me.
03:09 specing Why not both?
03:09 specing It should adjust detail based on distance
03:10 Pexin gotta pick your priorities
03:11 specing no
03:15 Pexin (and doesn't require expensive new hardware, forgot to mention that important bit)
03:21 erlehmann specing, did you watch the video?
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03:25 specing not yet no
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04:26 erlehmann Jonathon btw i realized that hecktest probably only lies when it is sweeping generalizations. there are certain things that are very well demonstrated: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11455
04:27 erlehmann i find it deeply ironic that the evidence that TTF is not usable for pixel fonts means “no pixel fonts then” for some people, while the pixel font renderer could totally do the job.
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06:23 Calinou pixel fonts are viable as TTFs *if you enforce integer scaling*
06:23 Calinou bitmap fonts can't solve this problem – your monitor can't render subpixels without a loss of detail :)
06:23 Calinou Minetest doesn't enforce integer scaling for fonts, this should be added as a minetest.conf setting if you want to use a pixel font
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06:55 erlehmann Calinou, pixel fonts are not scaled
06:55 erlehmann right now
06:55 erlehmann Calinou that is the reason they are crisp
06:56 erlehmann well, i go off to holidays
06:56 erlehmann have fun!
07:04 Calinou enjoy your vacation, stay safe :)
07:09 erlehmann thx
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07:30 sfan5 Calinou: only having fonts sizes 8, 16, 24, 32 seems kind of a problem for a GUI
07:30 erlehmann having used unifont for a while, it is not really one an practice. it kinda enforces a specific style though
07:32 erlehmann sfan5 you are right about the TGA thing being offtopic. i'll probably not reply to hecktest for a while now bc holidays! btw, you may find my compirason ridiculous, but you can easily count the bytes and verify that i am not lying. of course i didn't want to make the point that TGA is better (like who has textures that are 16x16? that would be ridiculously low!) but reacted to the idea of hecktest that the better
07:32 erlehmann compression is meaningful. for it to do something, you actually need a bigger file.
07:32 erlehmann bye then!
07:32 sfan5 @exe_virus since IRC does not have multiline messages that's kinda hard to read, because of that and so I don't forget please just open an issue
07:33 Calinou sfan5: yeah, pixel fonts aren't a good default for accessibility reasons
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10:55 pgimeno oh my what a flamer
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12:11 MTDiscord <Jonathon> @Exe, Virus (reply mention)
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13:00 pgimeno @josiah_wi I was under the impression that you were going to submit a PR for the signed overflows, are you going to?
13:48 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Ah okay, I'll put it in a PR later then
13:48 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Or issue
13:48 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Depends on my effort levels
13:57 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> pgimento, I haven't tested that map consistency was maintained, but I have everything ready to open the PR, so I'll do that today if I have time.
14:08 pgimeno ah okay, thanks
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14:09 pgimeno this fixes irr#67 for me: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/pastes/fix-irr-67.patch
14:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/issues/67 -- Pixelflood 2 – Segfault Boogaloo: Sending lottapixel.jpg from server segfaults client upon connection
14:20 pgimeno the problem is that 16778*32000*4 is > INT32_MAX, so it switched to negative while processing row 16778 of the image, just about half of it
14:27 pgimeno and that section is unable to process images with more than 32768x32767x4 in general, so maybe it would be wise to add that limit to all supported graphics formats and not just jpg?
14:30 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Shouldn't unsigned ints be used for the header and pixel index?
14:31 pgimeno @Benrob0329 what do you mean?
14:31 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> You can't ever have negative resolution, but then I don't remember if the libjpeg API allows unsigned ints to be passed
14:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> For pixel resolution values, it's probably safest to interpret it as signed and then reject negative values, i.e. de facto treat the top bit as "reserved"
14:33 pgimeno this is not about the sign of the input, but about an overflow when indexing the raw image. A raw image of 32kx32kx4 is 4GB, the range of a 32-bit unsigned integer.
14:33 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Ah
14:34 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Does MT always store an alpha channel, even with a 3 channel image?
14:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Anyone actually trying to use an image that large seems ... ill-advised :-)
14:34 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Well yes but it shouldn't segfault
14:35 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> But also, world map
14:35 pgimeno this is about potential security issues, not about whether it should be done :)
14:37 MTDiscord <Warr1024> World map is an interesting use-case in theory but I think probably still completely impractical.  What I'm saying is more along the lines of 32k is impractically large enough that if we wanted to clamp down more in the name of safety margin it would still be pretty reasonable.
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15:17 pgimeno I think the limit should be 23000x23000 for all image formats, to prevent signed overflow in other places (that limits images to 2GB)
15:18 pgimeno the direct cause of irr#68 is this: https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/blob/master/source/Irrlicht/CColorConverter.cpp#L22
15:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/issues/68 -- Pixelflood 3 – Server-Sent Client-Side Mayhem: Sending overalloc.bmp from server segfaults client upon connection
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15:27 pgimeno oh, Irrlicht does not support top-down images
15:27 pgimeno top-down BMPs*
15:43 appguru !tell Desour so what about the references now? a-z & A-Z or is A-Z fine too?
15:43 ShadowBot appguru: OK.
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16:02 sfan5 merging #9464, #11605, #11607 in 10m
16:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9464 -- Hide Wself-assign-overloaded and Wself-move unittest compilation warnings by HybridDog
16:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11605 -- Fix GLES2 discard behaviour (texture transparency) by sfan5
16:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11607 -- Shave off buffer copies in networking code by sfan5
16:03 sfan5 the hud code could use a rewrite
16:03 sfan5 to keep state instead of doing all kinds of things every frame
16:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> isnt vrobs gui framework supposed to rewrite/unify hud+formspecs if i recall correctly?
16:07 sfan5 I think so
16:07 sfan5 no idea when that is coming though
16:07 MTDiscord <Jonathon> very true
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16:35 MTDiscord <exe_virus> So about that in menu game music....?
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17:00 pgimeno https://codeberg.org/pgimeno/irrlichtmt/pulls/1
17:05 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> pgimeno, #11641 is ready for review.
17:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11641 -- fix integer overflow in mapgen by JosiahWI
17:05 pgimeno thanks
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17:49 Desour test2
17:50 MTDiscord <luatic> I'm seeing your "[off] test2"
17:51 MTDiscord <luatic> So it is certainly persistently stored in a publicly accessible Discord server's chat history
17:52 Desour that was to test ShadowBot, see #minetest
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22:04 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> It appears the Perlin Noise code uses floats instead of doubles. Is this an optimization? It seems like it wouldn't hurt to have a comment explaining why this decision to have more precision error in exchange for, hopefully something good, was made.
22:38 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Haha, do we support 32 bit still?
22:39 MTDiscord <exe_virus> My guess is that double actually does make more sense for 64 bit computers
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22:44 sfan5 using a data type twice as big doesn't suddenly make more sense on 64bit
23:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I think FPUs have been able to handle 64bit just fine for some time before the integer units were 64bit (remember MMX?) but there could be other costs to larger types, like memory bandwidth constraints or cache usage.
23:20 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Well, the few tutorials I've looked at so far all used double in their implementations, and so did snippets of code from the original code by Ken Perlin, so I was wondering why Minetest does it differently.
23:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I guess I'd go digging for documentation (possibly also in git blame) and if you don't find anything, it's POSSIBLE that there was no solid rationale.  Sometimes decisions are just made heuristically and people don't have time to build controlled experiments and benchmark everything.
23:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I think you'd have a hard time though proving that there's any real reason it shouldn't remain as it is.
23:35 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Yeah, and it probably isn't worth proving anyway. It's just my habit to question anything that I learned was a bad practice (and I did; I learned never use float except by specific decision due to precision error).
23:37 MTDiscord <Warr1024> A number of HLLs like Lua, JS, etc. seem to like 64-bit floats and not offer any other size, larger or smaller.  Seems to suggest there's some kind of sweet spot there, especially for a "general" application where you can't be sure how it's going to be used.  At least, there's evidence that it makes sense to "assume" 64bit as a sane default absent any other specific guidance...
23:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You might have to track down the original author to be sure though :-)
23:40 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> The reason I learned for the practice of using doubles wasn't performance-related at all. It was because of stuff like cumulative arithmetic error.
23:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, I'm saying the only reason I can think of for using something smaller than a double would be either some speed difference, or memory consumption.  In this case, it doesn't seem like floating point numbers are one of the major memory consumers.
23:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It does suggest at least that if you DID want to try to find out if there was a legit reason, speed might be one of the things you could try comparing.

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