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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2021-09-09

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Time Nick Message
00:07 calcul0n_ joined #minetest-dev
01:49 Pexin joined #minetest-dev
02:29 queria^clone joined #minetest-dev
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03:58 erlehmann ok i tested it
04:00 MTDiscord joined #minetest-dev
04:03 erlehmann to recape: i have tested it and PR #10570 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10570 should be REJECTED in its current state. minetest on that branch has NOTICEABLE LAG in hotbar inventory item rendering on my already slow computer, where it did not have that with 5.5-dev. the PR description claims it would speedup item rendering – if it does not do that on a slow computer, the whole thing is wrong.
04:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10570 -- Item render-to-texture: Texture modifier, speedup by appgurueu
04:05 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Oh, oof, it uses RTT.  I seem to remember that being a very hit/miss tech.  We used to rely on it for rendering inventory images, before they were rendered in 3D, and it was a big headache on certain platforms.
04:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> IIRC Android was one of the platforms where RTT was particularly painful.  This is the kind of thing that probably needs to be tested across a lot of different machines to be confident it does what it's supposed to, and it's good you were able to catch a problem early.
04:11 erlehmann well the point is, it was apparently not tested at all
04:11 MTDiscord <Warr1024> erlehmann, I think it would be a good idea to note your observations and concerns directly in the comments thread for the PR to make sure it's seen by anyone involved with it.
04:11 erlehmann Warr1024 i do not have a private github account anymore i can use, no idea if i can reactivate mine. they one hellbanned me for making too many commits or something. could you do it for now?
04:12 erlehmann and add your own observations?
04:12 erlehmann the thing is, the PR has *definitely* not been tested on a slow machine
04:12 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Eh, I'm sure it was tested on appgurueu's own machine, which I'm guessing is probably NOT one of the ones in which the perf issue was apparent
04:12 erlehmann bc inventory item rendering is now pretty much instant
04:12 erlehmann but with the PR it is not
04:13 erlehmann so to me it looks like some kind of “let me optimize this” by someone who never even cares about performance, just some weird theoretical purity
04:13 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm not sure how slow a machine needs to be to be "slow".  I'm inclined to just post your comments for now though because my machines that can compile and test are a bit tied up for a while..
04:13 erlehmann thx
04:13 erlehmann my machine is a thinkpad T60
04:13 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm sure there was performance in this in theory, the problem is that RTT behavior varies dramatically in practice and empirical testing on a narrow set of machines is not necessarily a large enough sample size to reveal that.
04:14 erlehmann it runs mineclonia (the mcl* games are biggest most performance killers) with around 25 to 27 fps with opengl, 5 to 7 fps with opengl ES, 1 fps with software rendering
04:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Heh, okay, you got me beat, mine's a T430s
04:14 erlehmann the thing is *theory*
04:15 erlehmann you can recognize ppl who claim to talk about performance and don't test, test, test pretty easily
04:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> slow machines are great for a game dev who wants to make sure their games run efficiently; nothing forces you to do it right more than feeling the pain directly when you don't
04:15 erlehmann yes that is one reason why i do it, besides the 4:3 matte screen and that it is remarkably serviceable
04:15 erlehmann fleckenstein & co have gaming machines and use discord
04:16 erlehmann it is funny, because the discord signup page is the only web page that i found that makes my whole computer lag
04:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Test, test, test is just hard when people usually don't have access to a ton of machines themselves.  Submitting something as a PR is probably one of the first really practical steps you can take to get something enough exposure to get it actually tested.  In this case, it seems to have worked ... though possibly only just barely...
04:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ah, 4:3, heh, I miss tallscreen :-)
04:16 erlehmann well from my POV there must either be something seriously wrong on the appgurueu machine that makes inv rendering slower than on some >10 year old thing
04:16 erlehmann OR
04:17 erlehmann more likely in my opinion, it is just someone thinking this works and not really caring
04:17 erlehmann which happens all the time
04:17 erlehmann for example in mineclone2, they chose to drop each item separately
04:17 erlehmann instead of an itemstack
04:18 erlehmann because that's EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT
04:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Oh, if you mean "appguru probably didn't observe an actual performance problem to solve" then that's plausible.  It's also possible that their use-case is unique, like using texture mods on very high resolution skybox textures, where using more GPU features on newer machines actually DOES outperform CPU pixel manipulation in software.
04:18 erlehmann needless to say, this kills the performance if there are a ton of entities bc someone dropped 99 cobble or something
04:19 erlehmann yes, i'd bet money on "appguru probably didn't observe an actual performance problem to solve"
04:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It does smell a bit like a "make faster machines faster at the unexpected expense of slower machines" kind of thing
04:19 erlehmann yeah
04:19 erlehmann i see that all the time
04:19 erlehmann if it is a unique usecase it should be gated
04:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I ain't betting money on shit, myself :-)
04:19 erlehmann like only use it for high performance machines
04:19 erlehmann or only for huge skybox
04:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> A heuristic to automatically choose an intelligent implementation based on the scale of the problem and the available capabilities would be nice, but more likely that's too much to maintain ourselves, and it might just make more sense to focus on things like smarter intermediate caching instead of trying to fancy-up the rendering, unless we're gonna pull in a library that has it figured out for us.
04:21 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I wouldn't want to hand-roll the heuristic for picking RTT vs software either.
04:21 erlehmann Warr1024 it reminds me of the item thing, you probably also did not notice the 9-tile-problem
04:22 erlehmann and you probably did not realize that the algorithm also scales the *background*, i.e. lagging the entire menu
04:22 erlehmann but you had a legit goal
04:22 erlehmann so it was not pointless
04:22 erlehmann just did not test it enough
04:22 erlehmann i shall probably build some more “performance improvements”
04:23 erlehmann because i can totally see “make it faster on faster machines and cut out the code path for slower machines bc LEGACY” being a thing
04:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I noticed the lag, but it wasn't that bad on my machine, which I at the time assumed was not really high-end ... and it felt tolerable enough to me that it COULD be a valid choice for a player to accept that traded off for the anti-aliasing effect
04:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> like, at least I personally play with the setting on all the time
04:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> and at the time it fixed a lot of annoyances for me, which were also reported by a number of other players, even if it may not have necessarily been the only or even best solution possible.
04:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> 3D inventory rendering has made at least one use-case for it obsolete, but it still has some value elsewhere at least.
04:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> So to clarify, is the lag your only major concern now?  Were the crashes and players' heads on backwards things unrelated or resolved or something?
04:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I want to make sure I'm getting a concise and to the point summary in GH
04:25 erlehmann Warr1024 you could easily make it just apply the scaling for graphics that are smaller or egal to 128x128
04:25 erlehmann equal
04:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I could make a threshold for it, but that'd be yet another tunable that needs to be tuned :-D
04:26 erlehmann i just mean its solvable if you want the icon thing to work
04:27 erlehmann and contentdb can easily spit out what the biggest icons in use are
04:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, it just doesn't feel a high prio anymore as it did at the time :-)
04:27 erlehmann bc it works for you. good that it is not default though.
04:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The "meat" of your recap seems to be this: minetest on that branch has NOTICEABLE LAG in hotbar inventory item rendering on my already slow computer, where it did not have that with 5.5-dev. the PR description claims it would speedup item rendering – if it does not do that on a slow computer, the whole thing is wrong.
04:28 erlehmann yes. you could add that the lag means there is nothing shown in the hotbar for some amount of time (prob slightly under a second)
04:28 erlehmann after picking up an item
04:28 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, it's annoying that I submitted a feature and nobody really ran with it and carried it farther, but it's good that it's at least available and presumably I'm not literally the only person to ever use it (some people actually do dig in fine-tuning settings or hear about stuff from old PRs and such and try them)
04:28 erlehmann the crash is weird though and merits investigation
04:30 erlehmann like there are very likely no crashes in mineclonia that can do that except for … two stronghold portals generating in a way that they overlap, but each portal is already filled with eyes of ender.
04:30 erlehmann which is really unlikely
04:30 erlehmann basically, only a serious stack overflow in a lua mod can get remotely to that result (i.e. segfault without error message)
04:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> oh, heh, I forgot that stack overflows can cause very hard to trap errors :-)
04:31 erlehmann Warr1024 please mention the segfault if you don't think it is too much. it needs investigation and i am not sure i can do it without help.
04:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Hmm, this PR does actually already have the "Possible close" tag on it
04:32 erlehmann thank you
04:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> so it's actually already under threat :-)
04:32 erlehmann thank you Warr1024
04:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> yw
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05:13 erlehmann oh LOL did you ACTUALLY break mineclone2 https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/pull/48 ?
05:13 erlehmann i have to test this
05:14 erlehmann so much for „mineclonia can keep working“
05:15 erlehmann i hate it when ppl insist that something is not relevant, then you show that you use it, then they disregard that
05:16 erlehmann if someone claims my testing of the item rendering „speedup“ which makes it slower does not matter, i'll probably think that person just does not care about performance, but pretends to
05:18 erlehmann sfan5, you should know that the removal of the tga thing will break *all* existing maps in mineclone2 and mineclone5 on engine upgrade.
05:18 erlehmann this is kinda a big deal
05:18 erlehmann it's not like no one plays it
05:19 erlehmann but switching out the implementation to generate bmp images will not help here.
05:19 erlehmann because if i undertstand it correctly, the image is generated just once.
05:19 erlehmann and those things are on contentdb right now as far as i know
05:20 erlehmann lots of people will *probably* be unhappy with it
05:30 erlehmann what happened to backwards compatibility?
05:30 erlehmann :(
06:18 erlehmann ok so i tested this
06:19 erlehmann and maps in mineclone5 do not work any more! how can you do that to players?
06:19 erlehmann a friend of mine built a whole map wall on kay27 mineclone5 server and all that will not be visible!
06:20 erlehmann i think it is deeply unethical if minetest 5.5 ruins player worlds because someone thinks a file format is not used but it actually is
06:20 erlehmann the TGA removal is really bad
06:20 erlehmann :(
06:26 erlehmann please do not do such backwards-incompatible changes
06:26 erlehmann it breaks things
06:26 erlehmann people have been making maps for months
06:26 erlehmann there is like young kids who are very proud of their things and you developers just want to ruin it? :(
06:28 erlehmann sfan5, celeron55 what can i do to get the tga thing back? it is not that i particularly like mineclone2 or mineclone5 but i think this is REALLY bad.
06:28 erlehmann and i bet there are other things being ruined by these removals right now
06:42 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> hecks made a lua png writer api which seems to end up doing the same thing as what people use the undocumented tga format support for
06:43 MTDiscord <luatic> The axing PR hasn't been merged yet IIRC
06:43 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> it has
06:43 MTDiscord <luatic> phenom: But that is not supported on older servers
06:43 MTDiscord <luatic> oh no
06:43 MTDiscord <luatic> That is unacceptable, it literally breaks compatibility.
06:44 MTDiscord <luatic> If the engine says we support formats, we may not remove them in the blink of an eye because we see them used rarely.
06:45 erlehmann they are not even used rarely
06:46 erlehmann you are probably annoying every player that has used mineclone2 and mineclone5 in the last few months
06:46 erlehmann like half a year or so
06:46 erlehmann singleplayer, server
06:47 erlehmann without wanting to be mean, i think hecktest is not being honest at all. it is the same person that claimed that computers without openGL 2 can not run minetest well and then wants to remove support.
06:47 erlehmann and then claims that tga is not used (despite mods on contentdb using it) and removes it
06:48 erlehmann seriously, i have seen this a bunch of times, most often employed by people from the systemd ecosystem
06:48 erlehmann the playbook also contains the assertion that a) you listen to complaints but b) the ones who DO complain are in fact, edge cases and should GET WITH THE PROGRAM
06:48 MTDiscord <luatic> This is compatibility-breaking, plain and simple, and should not have been merged
06:48 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> tga has never been officially supported, it has only been working because it's been in irrlicht just like with various other weird image formats
06:48 erlehmann yeah and a simple check for all mods on contentdb would have shown it
06:49 MTDiscord <luatic> Axing features we do not use is fine, axing features we do use and claim to support is not.
06:49 erlehmann Sublayer plank oh i bet all those people who rely on tga support ARE TOTALLY HAPPY to hear it was not ever officially supported for 10 years or so and now their worlds break
06:49 erlehmann this is dishonest and you all know it
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06:50 MTDiscord <luatic> It was officially supported, every capable mod dev reads the sources anways to find out what is and isn't supported
06:50 erlehmann yes
06:50 erlehmann in fact, fleckenstein told me he did not even read the rubenwardy book
06:50 erlehmann he read other mods!
06:50 erlehmann to find out how stuff works
06:50 erlehmann sfan5 celeron55 bring tga back please
06:51 MTDiscord <luatic> Well, I think Minetest doesn't properly document which formats it supports AT ALL.
06:52 MTDiscord <luatic> Try grepping for "b3d"
06:52 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> https://wiki.minetest.net/Using_Blender#File_format_support
06:52 MTDiscord <luatic> Yeah, the dev wiki touches upon it
06:52 erlehmann look whatever you claim, it is used. it breaks old servers with new clients.
06:52 MTDiscord <luatic> But the wiki is only semi-official
06:53 erlehmann it does not matter at all.
06:55 erlehmann ripping out stuff that has been supported for a while in the name of refucktoring and then telling everyone using a previous version they should fix their stuff now is one of the more evil things minetest can do
06:55 erlehmann bring tga back!
06:55 MTDiscord <luatic> Yes, bring TGA and MD2 and all the other axed file formats back.
06:55 MTDiscord <luatic> https://wiki.minetest.net/index.php?title=Using_Blender&amp;diff=23842&amp;oldid=22754
06:56 MTDiscord <luatic> The dev wiki DID mention those file formats at some point. If we are to consider this official docs, removing them in a minor release is unacceptable.
06:56 erlehmann removing them at all without a seamless upgrade path is absolutely haram
06:59 erlehmann celeron55, sfan5, i know i can not legally demand it, because it is creative commons. but if engine breakage is allowed to stand – and as i see it, hecktest wants to remove the ability of people to run minetest on older computers entirely, i want to hereby ask you to stop using the minetest icon i designed about 10 years ago in the first release that breaks existing worlds or makes the game unable to run on th
06:59 erlehmann e computer i am typing from.
07:00 MTDiscord <luatic> What about starting yet another Minetest fork?
07:01 erlehmann i could only do that because i did not have a day job or a partner and was generally healthier then.
07:02 erlehmann i may try to work on waspsaliva and backport everything but the broken stuff, because it has a bunch of convenience things, like optionally not displaying particles (for performance) and stuff like that. but it seems like a lot of work. maybe i can maintain a patchset that makes it possible to play. but i doubt it.
07:02 erlehmann hecktest seems to be hellbent on destroying the compatibility
07:03 MTDiscord <luatic> The PR would have been fine if it did what it said in the title.
07:03 erlehmann yes the PR is a lie
07:03 erlehmann if it was unused, i would not be upset so much
07:03 MTDiscord <luatic> But these file formats were used, and I really want to start using MD2.
07:03 erlehmann rubenwardy, is there an easy way to scan contentdb for filetypes?
07:04 MTDiscord <luatic> hmm, I don't think there is
07:04 erlehmann when fleckenstein wanted to remove about 100 nodes from mineclone2 because they were not in minecraft 1.12 (and wanted to alias river water to water LOL), i thought that was bad. hecktest is worse though! if you want to make such large changes, you HAVE to make sure they are REALLY accurate.
07:04 erlehmann it took wuzzy to come out of retirement and write a long post why it was a stupid idea
07:05 MTDiscord <luatic> you'd have to download all packages and then scan them
07:05 MTDiscord <luatic> I might get to it tomorrow
07:05 erlehmann well i bet mineclone2 and mineclone5 are not the only ones that are broken
07:06 erlehmann is hecktest on irc? if not, tell that person that it is careless and dangerous and will make many people unhappy
07:06 erlehmann if yes: hecktest, you may be talented, but you apparently have NO idea what hardware people use or what games they play.
07:06 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> hecks is usually here, yeah. idk if he's here at the moment
07:07 MTDiscord <luatic> Not much is gained from removing these file formats anyways; the relevant readers are rather small and simple.
07:07 erlehmann yes
07:07 erlehmann if this is like the fleckenstein situation, i expect the following: hecktest or someone else will offer a solution that does not actually solve the problem (but look like it at first glance), then declare the issue to be closed.
07:08 erlehmann which is about as clever as aliasing river water to water (it makes river mapgen flood the map)
07:08 MTDiscord <luatic> Well, I can see why you would "deprecate" baking TGAs instead of PNGs
07:08 MTDiscord <luatic> PNGs are indeed preferrable, but backwards compatibility must be kept
07:08 erlehmann i can not see it, the implementation is small and battle tested.
07:08 erlehmann there is no bloat to find here
07:08 MTDiscord <luatic> indeed
07:08 erlehmann also the issue is that map art is generated once. it can not be regenerated, because it is the map at the point when it was generated.
07:09 erlehmann it also reminds me of the chromium disaster. chromium recently tried to disable the first javascript function many people learn: alert()
07:09 erlehmann and other stuff
07:09 erlehmann it broke big websites, so they reverted it, but then said they will remove it anyway and webdevs should get with the times
07:09 erlehmann yeah i bet all the old websites will TOTALLY get updated (not)
07:10 erlehmann they will just remove it later as the big websites have now learned to either use the new chrome-internet-explorer APIs or be made unusable
07:10 erlehmann it is really irritating to me how a project can be so backwards compatible but then just RUIN it
07:11 erlehmann does no one from the devs actually play mineclone2?
07:11 MTDiscord <luatic> We should start a petition or something
07:12 MTDiscord <luatic> Open letter?
07:12 erlehmann no it does not matter
07:12 MTDiscord <luatic> Umm, it does matter
07:12 MTDiscord <luatic> That PR is revertable rather easily
07:12 erlehmann open letters do not matter
07:12 MTDiscord <luatic> Well, let's get to the scanning of CDB at the weekend
07:12 erlehmann there needs to be consensus among the devs if breaking stuff that has been on contentdb for a while i acceptable. i would prefer a BIG NO.
07:13 erlehmann or if having new clients connect to old servers is acceptable
07:13 erlehmann i mean if it is acceptable it should not break worlds!
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07:15 erlehmann if there will be no developer consensus, hecktest or whoever else does that will continue to remove features insisting that they are legacy and not used.
07:16 erlehmann you need to call people out on their lies if they do that. and by “lies” i mean: i haven't contributed code to minetest in a long time and it was easy for me to find counter examples.
07:17 erlehmann and it is a LIE if someone just makes stuff up
07:17 erlehmann luatic i am willing to collaborate on a blog pot
07:17 erlehmann post
07:18 erlehmann luatic or just show your open letter
07:18 erlehmann i can contact all the other devs (of cheat clients or mineclone) so you see this affects many people using the engine
07:28 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> you could also go through commit df9d667 in the PR, add back the relevant TGA code, and open that as a PR and push it to be merged
07:29 MTDiscord <luatic> Why only TGA though?
07:29 MTDiscord <luatic> We should first see what formats are actually in use, which is what I'm up to right now.
07:31 erlehmann yes
07:32 erlehmann the commit should be unconditionally reversed because it was made in bad faith
07:32 erlehmann just declaring something unused does not make it unused
07:33 erlehmann > File formats have been triaged rather aggressively - I've left only PNG, JPEG, X, B3D, OBJ.
07:33 erlehmann > BMP is also enabled because the null video driver would not compile without it.
07:34 erlehmann so i checked this adn i have about the same amount of TGA files (118) as JPEG files (155) in my cache folder.
07:35 erlehmann also i have 581 files for which libmagic does not know what they are, >3000 ogg files, ~48700 PNG files, exactly 1 BMP file, 1664 text/plain
07:35 erlehmann i also want to add that this kind of thing would have not been easily possible if the “put the cache in sqlite” PR would have gone through. i hope it dies a fiery death.
07:41 celeron55 i'd say adding back tga is a possibility
07:42 erlehmann celeron55, why not a certainty?
07:42 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> what's so bad about the "put the cache in sqlite" PR?
07:43 erlehmann to be clear, i have about as many map arts here as skybox textures
07:43 celeron55 removing format support overall is wise, because each and every one of them is a security risk and also a potential maintenance burden in the process of transitioning away from irrlicht
07:44 erlehmann it is not wise if it breaks several public servers that have relied on it for a time
07:44 erlehmann or any number of private servers
07:44 erlehmann *everyone* who crafted a map item in mineclone2 post 0.71 or mineclone5 (both downloaded from contentdb) will be affected
07:46 erlehmann regarding security risks … i do security as a day job. i can offer to audit the TGA code and try to break it. that does not prove it is secure, though.
07:47 celeron55 md2 is mentioned by appguru in the thread also, is it used by something?
07:48 erlehmann no idea, i have so far only found b3d files in my cache. give me a minute or two.
07:48 celeron55 i could be wrong, but i think these formats weren't officially supported, which is the reason we thought the code could be removed. the official wiki is quite rogue in this matter though as it does mention many of them
07:49 erlehmann from my point of view the reason you thought they could be removed is because hecktest just made that assertion up
07:49 erlehmann that they are not used
07:50 erlehmann and the when someone complained that was ignored!
07:50 erlehmann it is right there in the PR, mineclone2 devs complaining
07:50 celeron55 i haven't been following the PR after it was merged
07:51 erlehmann they were given the suggestion to use a different format by sfan5, but no solution for *every* map being broken in mineclone2 and mineclone5
07:51 erlehmann liker, if you want to ruin hundreds of players hard work for in-game experience (making map art is really difficult, you need to place a lot of blocks), go ahead, make a release with that.
07:52 erlehmann liker → like
07:52 celeron55 anyway we need the patch that adds in tga, for reviewing it
07:52 erlehmann how about you revert the patch that removed tga?
07:52 erlehmann it does not look sane anyway
07:52 celeron55 it removed 216514 lines of code
07:52 celeron55 most of it is truely useless
07:52 erlehmann yes that is extremely stupid, and i mean that in a professional way
07:52 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> I feel tga is the only image format removed that has actually seen some use. like, I don't see anyone asking for psd, pvr or rgb to be added back. adding back tga support would be like 500 lines of code at most
07:53 erlehmann celeron55, making such a big commit breaks most git toolings
07:53 nrz it's not an issue i think to re-add tga
07:53 erlehmann sometimes in subtle ways, sometimes in more obvious
07:53 celeron55 i think that commit is fine, it just removed tga, which was in use, and appguru's comment about md2 there has a point
07:53 erlehmann gitg will probably be unusable for the irrlichtMT repo
07:53 nrz and we can add depreciation notices instead of being aggressive on format removal 😄
07:54 erlehmann i think the commit should have been a bunch of small things for each format
07:54 erlehmann so you can revert the stuff that is stupid
07:54 erlehmann hecktest is not careful!
07:54 erlehmann if you add it in, will you lose the history of the file?
07:54 erlehmann for the lines i mean
07:54 erlehmann <celeron55> it removed 216514 lines of code
07:54 erlehmann how was that even reviewed
07:55 erlehmann like come on you can't tell me someone actually checked this manually
07:55 celeron55 removing code is fine to me, if it breaks something that'll pop up just like it did now
07:55 erlehmann uhhh, no?
07:55 erlehmann this was almost not noticed
07:56 erlehmann because a) the PR was dismissive towards the ppl who said it is a bad idea b) the mineclone2 devs use cheat clients, which lag behind the official one. you can rebase the cheats on an official release.
07:56 celeron55 it was noticed on 23 jul, just need to be more careful to follow the post merge comments in these PRs
07:56 erlehmann ok
07:56 erlehmann fleckenstein is the author of the dragonfire cheat client, he will probably not notice early when stuff breaks
07:57 erlehmann but at the next merge/rebase-fest
07:57 celeron55 well i can say we don't support cheat client developers
07:57 celeron55 so you can go away with that argument
07:57 erlehmann uh i think you do misunderstand me
07:57 erlehmann those ppl test their mod with the up to date version of the cheat client, which means the last major version of minetest usually
07:58 erlehmann it's not about the cheats
07:58 erlehmann it's that they have a legit reason to use an older featureset
07:58 celeron55 if you develop games for minetest, you should check the in-development version in case of bugs especially when a release is coming up. of course not everyone will have the time to do that, but we need that and wish enough game developers will do it
07:59 erlehmann celeron55 can i do something to prevent such breakage in the future? i will try to read more that hecktest did to find more breakage.
07:59 erlehmann yeah but if high-profile games break and neither the engine devs nor the game devs notice it MAYBE you should handle stuff like this like the texture alpha thing
08:00 erlehmann where a lot of warnings are output for a long time
08:00 erlehmann that was ok, people fixed their stuff, nothing broke
08:00 erlehmann but just removing stuff that is actually used, horrible
08:00 erlehmann especially with claiming it is not used, which is the argument for removing it. if that was true, it would be good!
08:01 celeron55 also we didn't have much experience in doing stuff with our irrlicht fork at the time and many weren't following it as it was so new, so that also explains the inattention
08:01 erlehmann but i will from now on believe that every such claim is a lie unless backed up by data
08:01 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> the largest chunk of tga format code is contained in their CImage{Loader,Writer}  source files, only thing apart from that would be minor build code-related things you can find with a ctrl+f
08:01 celeron55 i.e. this is easy to learn from
08:01 erlehmann Sublayer plank can you add it back in? i can test
08:01 erlehmann i think btw hecktest and whoever approved it should fix it
08:01 erlehmann or have their stuff reverted
08:02 erlehmann they broke it!
08:02 celeron55 also no data was lost or anything, simply adding the code back will make everything work again. it's not really a bad situation
08:02 erlehmann celeron55, i am so agitated so that it does not become a bad situation.
08:02 erlehmann it is not yet bad, but it could have been.
08:02 erlehmann obviously earlier warnings were ignored.
08:02 celeron55 well, it's nice you noticed it, that prevented a worse situation
08:03 erlehmann good. btw, the “speedup item rendering” thing that actually slows down item rendering is the same.
08:03 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> yeah I was thinking of adding it in and creating a PR if nobody else would step up to do that
08:03 erlehmann someone just claimed stuff and it was wrong!
08:04 erlehmann this one https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10570 – where Warr1024 even knew it was “hit/miss tech” and “a big headache”
08:04 erlehmann btw “if any unit test breaks I would just delete it” LOL
08:06 erlehmann celeron55 “also no data was lost or anything, simply adding the code back will make everything work again” yes ok in that way the mineclone2 situation was worse – it would have ruined those worlds forever.
08:07 celeron55 well, only as long as the code wasn't added back in
08:09 erlehmann no, because fleckenstein wanted to do stuff like alias river water to water
08:09 erlehmann i.e. all river water would have flooded the map and never be turned back
08:09 erlehmann once you load the world with the new version
08:10 erlehmann let's say fleckenstein wanted everything to be EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT 1.12
08:10 erlehmann regardless of if that affects performance badly or player experience
08:10 celeron55 ah yeah that sounds kind of bad
08:10 erlehmann at some point wuzzy came and told fleck among other things that the reason why minecraft 1.12 did not have these blocks is bc of technical limitations
08:11 erlehmann their block id space was too little, so minecraft changed to a namespaced system like minetest in 1.13
08:11 erlehmann too small i mean
08:12 erlehmann celeron55, don't worry, i'm sure with the rate of breaking changes i have encountered in the past week sooner or later i will find one that is not easily reversible!
08:12 celeron55 anyway, if someone wants to make me actually angry, you have to cause data corruption. anything else just makes me say "guys come on"
08:13 erlehmann well i am also upset because how it was handled. for 4 things in a row now i found that they were not really supported by evidence how they affect performance, the submitters of the PR were just making stuff up.
08:15 erlehmann like “sqlite is a faster key-value store than the filesystem” (not the case), “the number of machines that can actually run minetest but have opengl <2 is the empty set” (we talked about that), “this PR speeds up inventory item rendering” (actually slowed it down) and now “these file formats are not used” (but they are)
08:16 erlehmann if someone at work would submit PRs like this, i'd probably talk to their boss about them making stuff up to get their pet features included.
08:17 erlehmann celeron55 obviously i am eager to help. what do you think i can do to minimize breakage?
08:17 sfan5 why are there five mentions of my nick when I look in here for the first time today
08:18 erlehmann oh this is fun as well https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10570#issuecomment-915797012
08:18 erlehmann > I don't quite see why this would cause the mentioned lag
08:18 erlehmann yeah, but i measured it. it's laggier than before.
08:18 nrz sfan5, because you are famous 😄
08:18 erlehmann it does not matter if the person who wrote the code does not understand it
08:21 erlehmann sfan5, TGA support was removed here https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/pull/48, breaking map art in mineclone2 and mineclone5 which are both on contentdb. you approved these changes even though hecktest just made probably anything about unused file formats up on the spot.
08:22 erlehmann sfan5 you also suggested a … well … non-solution to the problem of breaking *existing* map art, i.e. replacing the TGA encoder with a BMP encoder, so maybe you did not understand that making map art is a time consuming process (basically 1 pixel is 1 voxel, so you need to place a lot of nodes for a thing).
08:22 erlehmann and that it would break existing stuff from about the last half year
08:23 erlehmann i have written BMPs in bourne shell, replacing the encoder is easy, you are right!
08:24 erlehmann but the TGAs contain the state of the map at the point the image was made. so mineclone2 and mineclone5 would have to have code to a) adjust all items that refer to tga textures b) read the TGA files to encode them anew on the fly as BMP.
08:24 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> https://github.com/rollerozxa/irrlicht/commit/ea419b78c15e5f7a0903338eaa819db6a4375818
08:24 erlehmann let's say as someone who has dealt with mineclone2 and mineclone5 development, i think the likelier outcome is just that those two games stay broken for months.
08:24 erlehmann and then some
08:25 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> doesn't work right now, I can't get it to use a TGA image for a node texture as a test
08:25 erlehmann damn
08:25 erlehmann if only hecktest had made proper commits removing each feature
08:25 erlehmann i hate that i can not use gitg for the repo anymore or “git log -p” without having segfaults or lag
08:26 erlehmann if you think i trash-talk the mineclone2 devs post-wuzzy … mineclone2 0.71 was even uploaded to contentdb with massive lag, and no nether quartz or nether wart generating.
08:26 erlehmann which basically made potions unobtainable
08:27 erlehmann also most enchanted items had at least 21kb of metadata, so if you put on enchanted gear, well, LAG
08:27 erlehmann or if you had it in your inventory
08:27 erlehmann all of that took *months* to fix
08:28 erlehmann so that's why i think they will probably not fix anything if the engine breaks it. apart from that, come on, breaking user worlds is the ONE thing that minecraft does all the time and minetest does not.
08:29 erlehmann i shall be silent and work
08:29 sfan5 erlehmann: removing supported formats is technically not in line with our backwards-compat but reasonably to make an exception for a once-in-a-lifetime event such as Irrlicht cleanup
08:30 sfan5 and if the TGA removal was such a big issue one of the MCL* devs should have said so (well you are doing now, but I mean back then)
08:30 erlehmann they said so
08:30 erlehmann and come on, checking every mod on contentdb for the case-insensitive string "TGA" is possible
08:30 sfan5 "but we use TGA" "yeah but you can use BMP" "[crickets]"
08:30 erlehmann for such a big change
08:31 erlehmann well, i guess your reply basically told them you do not understand the problem, but i do not know for sure
08:31 erlehmann while i am pretty rude and willing to bitch about problems until they are fixed
08:32 erlehmann sfan5, by the way: my problem is not with the removal of stuff that is not used per se, but that a) the submitter just made something up b) you approved it without actually checking if what was claimed (which file formats are not used) was actually true.
08:32 erlehmann can maybe running file(1) on all contentdb mods be added to the CI?
08:33 erlehmann or could rubenwardy chime in if it makes sense to have contentdb collect this info?
08:34 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> wtf is up with CNullDriver
08:34 erlehmann btw, i am happy you listened to me
08:35 erlehmann i mean, in the mineclone2 story i was called terrorist for my “stop breaking the game for everyone who has it installed” nagging
08:35 sfan5 if they make no (real) attempt to explain the problems they are facing because of TGA being removed then we can't accomodate for that
08:36 erlehmann they are a difficult crowd to work with
08:37 erlehmann and some of the ppl around mineclone2 or mineclone5 do think the minetest engine devs (particularly including you) are idiots bc their pet feature is not included. i guess they will sooner or later have their own engine fork like crafter guy.
08:37 erlehmann for the record, i think you are nice
08:37 erlehmann and i think the mineclone2 dev situation post-wuzzy is dominated by toxic personality conflicts
08:38 sfan5 anyway I don't think it's too complicated for MCL to convert existing .tga maps to .bmp on startup, you can skip the modifying existing items step because the engine strips the texture extension (I think)
08:38 erlehmann that leaves the “new client, old server” issue
08:38 erlehmann has it ever happened before that stuff broke bc you used a newer client?
08:39 erlehmann some mcl2 servers are still on minetest 5.3, the security nightmare release
08:40 celeron55 <Sublayer plank> https://github.com/rollerozxa/irrlicht/commit/ea419b78c15e5f7a0903338eaa819db6a4375818
08:40 celeron55 did you remember to enable the format in the server and client code also?
08:40 celeron55 they have file extension whitelists
08:41 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/1320c51d8e15409544cba970a97b167a37513bae/src/client/client.cpp#L650
08:41 sfan5 good point but seeing as Mineclone has a strict policy of only supporting one exact Minetest versions that doesn't seem like a big problem
08:41 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> tga was never removed from the client image whitelist
08:41 sfan5 s/versions/version/
08:42 erlehmann mineclone policy means nothing if the engine is not stable
08:42 erlehmann the problem is breaking worlds on upgrade
08:42 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> also it works now, it can load a TGA image but... only when I rename the file to .png?
08:42 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163566800633906/885445070113898516/unknown.png
08:42 erlehmann lol
08:42 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> it's still in TGA format ofc
08:43 erlehmann btw in mineclone2 some bugs were never reported because the “obvious” solution to them would have been buggy in a worse way than the bug and the devs never cared about that. i believe it is the same for minetest engine also. in particular, i think some cheat client developers might help with engine debug features that are more for convenience than cheating if they would not expect to be banned or ridiculed.
08:44 erlehmann i mean, there exist at least 3 different night vision implementations that were probably not considered in the night vision PR
08:44 erlehmann because they exist in cheat clients …
08:44 sfan5 you keep mentioning this as a theoretical
08:44 sfan5 what if they just do it
08:45 sfan5 they can go to github and contribute
08:45 sfan5 right now
08:45 celeron55 we can't help with past bad experiences
08:45 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> oh never mind, minetest client/tile.cpp has tga removed already
08:45 erlehmann yeah but you could maybe accept that cheat clients are not only full of cheats but also have features that are just for less lag and stuff or finding bugs
08:46 celeron55 minetest is run as an upstream project and it has many downstreams, MT's devs can't be expected to dig through the forks for features to be ported upstream
08:47 erlehmann no but you could be less hostile. like instead of banning ppl from forums for cheating make a subforum for cheat/debug features.
08:47 erlehmann specing, you do cheat client stuff too, what is your impression?
08:48 sfan5 it is not in our interest to condone or promote cheating on the official forum out of all places
08:49 erlehmann yeah but that is the point, then those ppl go elsewhere.
08:49 erlehmann and stay away
08:49 erlehmann which is intended, but that way you don't get engine bugfixes
08:49 celeron55 i bet many server admins would get pissed off if the forum had a cheating section
08:50 celeron55 so the choice would be whether to promote cheating and condone server admins, or the other way around like now
08:50 celeron55 i mean
08:50 erlehmann yeah i get it
08:50 celeron55 what's the opposite of condoning
08:50 erlehmann tolerating
08:51 erlehmann i don't want to promote cheating btw
08:51 erlehmann i only use fly to build better and to not get killed by ppl who remove the ground under logged out players
08:51 erlehmann but i play on clamity mostly and clamity server has cheat clients allowed. i believe your-server.de does it best, they have a test server they use to investigate dupes and other cheats.
08:52 erlehmann forget about the cheating thing, i just wanted to explain why those ppl are probably not particularly motivated to help
08:53 celeron55 anyway, MT's official stance must be towards fair play and order, because if MT does not officially do that, nobody else is going to, it'll be all chaos
08:53 erlehmann that being said, i kinda expect mineclone2 to just stop development, mineclone5 to continue and if mineclonia stops probably depends if minetest will stop running on where it is develped (for example, my pc)
08:53 sfan5 <erlehmann> can maybe running file(1) on all contentdb mods be added to the CI? <- this wouldn't have helped would it? MCL ships no tga files, it only generates them at runtime
08:54 erlehmann sfan5 it would have cleared it up for other file formats though
08:55 erlehmann i think if you believe that hecktest just made up which file formats are important, checking contentdb is a good first step to see if other important stuff was removed, even if it would not catch all cases.
08:55 erlehmann file(1) will nod catch b3d or md2 files though
08:55 erlehmann at least on my machine
08:55 erlehmann nod → not
08:55 erlehmann sfan5, i would probably not have expected jpeg to be used btw if i was asked to make up which file formats are used, bc i have never interacted with skyboxes much
08:56 erlehmann compared to PNG everything is unimportant ^^
08:56 erlehmann sfan5, if you want to figure out what you have in your cache, you can probably do: ls |xargs -n50| file --mime --brief |sort |uniq -c
08:57 erlehmann sorry
08:57 erlehmann sfan5, ls |xargs -n50 file --mime --brief |sort |uniq -c
08:57 sfan5 the decision which formats to drop was made purely on how obscure they seemed
08:58 erlehmann which is another way to say “conjured out of thin air and not based on facts”
08:58 erlehmann and which i think is wrong. it is wrong here, it is wrong with the PR that claims to enhance performace but actually worsens it etc. pp.
08:58 celeron55 i think the base failure here was that, now that i looked at 5.4.1, we actually didn't have a list of supported formats for anything in lua_api.txt or anywhere else
08:59 celeron55 so the list of supported formats was informal at best, but actually inexistent
08:59 erlehmann yes but the thing is, people will find a way in minetest, even if something is not supported
08:59 sfan5 erlehmann: correct, but most decision work that way
08:59 erlehmann sfan5, then most decisions are probably at least partially wrong
09:00 celeron55 well it's this again: one day people ask us to merge code with lighter checking if there's no time for thorough review, and then the next day other people blame us for doing exactly that
09:00 erlehmann celeron55, for example, compasses in mcl2 are like a bunch of items that are switched out in the inventory all the time. banners are entities that are cobbled together at runtime. every non-trivial mod has hacks upon hacks upon hacks.
09:00 erlehmann > people ask us to merge code with lighter checking if there's no time for thorough review
09:01 erlehmann in my experience, those ppl are unreasonable. when we did that in mineclonia and mcl_meshnode, particularly for huge changes, it always broke something.
09:01 erlehmann mineclone5 also had that problem, mineclone2 did not have reviews at all
09:02 celeron55 that's what i've found out too, and that's why MT still has the "why do you do that, that's so slow and nothing gets through" 2 coredev requirement for merging
09:02 erlehmann and mineclone2 had *two* forks because of the abysmal quality lol
09:02 erlehmann celeron55, https://github.com/minetest/irrlicht/pull/48 was only approved by sfan5 though. that makes one core dev.
09:03 sfan5 the second coredev is hecks
09:03 sfan5 himself
09:03 celeron55 a PR made by a coredev implies one approval
09:03 celeron55 if you want to benefit from that, apply for a coredev status today!
09:03 erlehmann ok hi
09:03 erlehmann where do i need to put in the work
09:03 sfan5 and also the two approvals requirement never really applied to repos other than minetest and minetest_game
09:03 erlehmann yeah maybe you should apply it to the irrlicht thing officially
09:04 erlehmann celeron55, it is the same thing that has worked for mineclonia then
09:04 erlehmann 2 approvals if code comes from outside, 1 if it comes from inside
09:04 sfan5 I've enjoyed working on minor fixes, cleanup or other things in IrrlichtMt without worrying about approvals
09:05 erlehmann sfan5 well either your code is uncontroversially good, then convincing *one* other person that it is, is not a big task. or it is not, then you should think again why it is difficult to find an approver, no?
09:05 erlehmann are you understaffed?
09:05 erlehmann i can promise to review stuff with as much vitriol as i can spare, but i am not good at C++. i can see security issues though!
09:05 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> all volunteer-run projects are always understaffed, to some extent
09:07 sfan5 convincing another person is a big task when there is no such person for 70% of the week
09:08 erlehmann well i want to help because so far the majority of the issues were kinda affecting playability
09:08 erlehmann i am even willing to use github for that
09:09 erlehmann also engine devs are kinda the adversary from a gamedev point of view, they can break stuff. keep your enemies closer and all that!
09:10 celeron55 well, technically i think you do have some commits in the engine, albeit insanely old ones, so that requirement does pass for being a core dev
09:11 erlehmann well due to the hg import i lot of commits are erroneously attributed to me
09:11 erlehmann sorry
09:12 erlehmann but i did do some stuff
09:12 erlehmann like … bookshelves!
09:12 celeron55 (fun fact: my newest comment is also insanely old)
09:12 erlehmann also the omsk bird
09:12 celeron55 eh
09:12 erlehmann commit?
09:12 celeron55 commit
09:12 erlehmann why did you remove oerkki
09:12 erlehmann i always wanted to ask that
09:12 erlehmann also my sick block texture was removed ^^
09:13 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> anyways what is up with CNullDriver in irrlicht? there's references to writing and loading various removed image formats in it and I don't know why it doesn't make it fail during compile, other than it being dead code
09:13 erlehmann i bet hecktest knows, i mean bmp is in it just bc of that?
09:13 erlehmann or wait, i should not chime in. i know nothing about that part of the code
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09:14 celeron55 is CNullDriver it ever built at all?
09:14 sfan5 bmp is used by some internal things and I would have advocated keeping at least one simple, uncompressed format anyway
09:14 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> from what I can tell it seems to be the "null" driver backend that is the base for all other backends like opengl and opengles
09:15 erlehmann celeron55, so what do i need to do now to get core dev, submit my pgp key?
09:15 sfan5 it doesn't actually call those https://0x0.st/-w0Z.png (note the subtle graying out)
09:15 sfan5 so yes dead code
09:16 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> oh right, preprocessor instructions
09:20 celeron55 erlehmann: i must ask the existing core team for opinions, and if nobody disagrees, you should tell me you've read and understood this (and check that it makes sense to begin with, sometimes it gets outdated and nobody notices) https://dev.minetest.net/All_rules_regarding_to_development and if that works out i can add you to the team on github which gives you the permissions on the repo
09:20 celeron55 and then you would be a core dev
09:21 erlehmann > If a core developer is doing almost nothing but blocking everything that comes their way, they will be unassigned.
09:21 erlehmann would this also be the case if i focus on patches that make the game unplayable or ruin stuff?
09:21 erlehmann bc it is very easy to tell why, but it would be kinda negative
09:22 erlehmann also i never know before testing if it is a problem
09:22 celeron55 i guess i'll ask for opinions then: erlehmann would like to be a core dev would be interested in reviewing PRs as they relate to security and compatibility, any opinions from core devs?
09:22 celeron55 +and
09:23 erlehmann yeah i probably don't want to add much features, wuzzy already tries so hard and it takes ages before they are reviewed.
09:23 celeron55 (god damn making making me look like a fool not showing the entire line as i'm editing it)
09:23 celeron55 +irssi
09:23 celeron55 :----D
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09:25 celeron55 erlehmann: well, if it tells anything no unassignments have been made so far, i guess to the disappointment of the people who have sometimes requested them
09:26 celeron55 (aside from the person themselves asking to be unassigned, but you can leave the team on github on your own so it really doesn't require even asking)
09:27 celeron55 i think from the core dev toolbox what you would be using most would indeed be the veto power, or at least the fact that people will put more weight on the words of a core dev when one questions a PR
09:27 erlehmann ah
09:30 sfan5 do you plan to review feature PRs though?
09:43 erlehmann maybe, but mostly if it is related to features i care about, because then i have the context. i mostly want to review bc a) the last few things i casually looked at had game-breaking issues b) there seems to be a lack of thorough reviews
09:43 erlehmann let me look at them
09:45 erlehmann sfan5, i have an interest in particle spammers, texture modifies, fonts, physics overrides and dupes
09:45 erlehmann sfan5, i bet i find enough features that touch any of these topics
09:46 erlehmann in general, i would only look at it if i want to use it. bc one needs to be familiar with the use case.
09:46 erlehmann otherwise bad things are more likely to happen
09:46 erlehmann or maybe not *only*, but preferably
09:47 erlehmann sfan5 i do not want to promise anything
09:48 erlehmann sfan5, this is probably something i would review in-depth https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11110
09:49 erlehmann in fact i am surprised that removing working features is more important than a bugfix, but well, i guess i am interested in different things
09:50 erlehmann i will also have holidays soon, so don't expect me to do much in the next 3 weeks or so
09:55 sfan5 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
09:57 sfan5 sounds fine but I'm a bit skeptical on the outcomes, we'll see
10:23 MTDiscord <luatic> Well erlehmann, regarding my proclaimed speedup... It was partially assumed, but also benchmarked (not by me though)
10:37 erlehmann sfan5, well you can look at my mineclonia work to see how thorough i do stuff
10:37 erlehmann luatic no hard feelings, i just think it is sloppy work
10:38 erlehmann luatic i have no idea myself why this is slower on my computer, i just noticed it is
10:38 erlehmann luatic did you actually have performance problems without it?
10:39 erlehmann sfan5, in mineclonia i also did stuff like take other people's branches and clean them up (i.e. split commits, merge commits, make sure that no unrelated changes are in it)
10:39 erlehmann s/merge/squash/
10:40 sfan5 I have no doubts about the things you mentioned
10:41 erlehmann i just said the holiday thing bc i won't be online much and won't have time
10:42 erlehmann in general my interest is keeping minetest performant
10:54 erlehmann and also trying to make ppl back up their statements
10:55 erlehmann sfan5, in my experience almost everyone is pretty annoyed at me asking until i get a good answer, but think about the boundaries for the overlong items – if i had just taken your guess and anon5 had not corrected it, the code would have been wrong.
10:55 erlehmann only slightly wrong, but in the end it's a constant.
10:57 erlehmann btw, quoting a friend of mine regarding regressions that make it hard or impossible to run on old hardware (like including removing fixed pipeline): “it's not cool because the way I see it minetest is for people who have computers that can't run minecraft”
10:57 erlehmann that's not my idea of it, but i do agree it should run
11:21 celeron55 eh
11:21 celeron55 that implies minetest is a worse minecraft with the only thing going for it that it runs on old computers
11:22 celeron55 you can tell your friend he just insulted my project
11:25 celeron55 and didn't insult minecraft enough
11:33 erlehmann lol ok
11:34 erlehmann celeron55, told him ;)
11:34 erlehmann celeron55, don't worry my friend also made minetest mods
11:35 erlehmann he knows what is good
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13:07 Calinou [18:01] <9c27b0erlehmann> btw i have had a thing where if i fall very fast and disable fall damage the server (5.4.1) and client 5.5-dev desync after impact
13:08 Calinou my guess for this is that the client only sends position updates when it moves. When you hit the ground, you stop moving
13:08 Calinou therefore, the interpolator does not try to follow the final position as it doesn't get any new data. Try disabling this optimization on the client side, then test again (it's hardcoded in C++)
13:08 Calinou it was added in late 2012 or so
13:10 Calinou The other reason is that your velocity is null when you hit the ground, so the last position is never sent to the server in the first place. This is less likely but not impossible. Try disabling the smooth translator to confirm this
13:12 erlehmann Calinou can you tell me how to do this exactly? where do i have to disable it?
13:12 erlehmann which line of code on which revision in which file?
13:13 Calinou I don't remember where it is in the client code (I'm on mobile right now), but search for SmoothTranslator
13:13 Calinou that's how the interpolator was called back then
13:13 Calinou as for the sending optimization, I don't know. You could try looking at all commits made in November and December 2012
13:14 Calinou it may point to incorrect locations since the code has likely been refactored since, though
13:14 Calinou I think Taoki made that optimization, or was it celeron?
13:15 Calinou for the record, I've seen the bug you're mentioning in action too
13:17 erlehmann hmm
13:25 sfan5 the sending optimization is probably in client.cpp since packets get sent in there
13:25 sfan5 (also the mainloop and other stuff is there)
13:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> As far as the whole "backwards compat" debate goes, I think we need to remain compatible but without remaining backwards.  That means we SHOULD be able to deprecate features at any time, though there are better ways to do it than just axing things.  As long as people are okay with changes given proper notice, then I think we don't have a problem.  If someone submits a PR to update documentation to mark something as deprecated
13:35 MTDiscord (especially if they've got a WIP PR ready for the later removal) I'm inclined to approve.
13:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Suddenly dropping TGA support without warning is probably a bug.  However, game/mod makers may have to accept that it could be deprecated, and if the necessary documentation/warnings are added to 5.5, there should be no reason that removing it in 5.6 should be considered a bug.
13:39 erlehmann i see no reason whatsoever to deprecate stuff that is not a maintenance burden
13:39 erlehmann i think code is a liability
13:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> As for core dev promotions: if the only thing it's for is veto power then it shouldn't be necessary.  Objections to changes should be based on the merits of the objections and not on the status of the person making them, so a non-core-dev should have as much weight as a core dev if their objection is adequately valid.  That being said, recognizing that game makers especially are MT's core audience and need to be the focus of support
13:39 MTDiscord is probably of value, and promoting game devs to core devs is a way to accomplish this...
13:39 erlehmann so deleting what you don't need is not good
13:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> code is a liability, and deleting what you don't need is not good ... okay, I think I missed the "liability is good" step there somewhere.
13:40 erlehmann but deleting something that people rely on and creating a huge overhead for ppl who relied on it and breaking their worlds is not nice
13:40 erlehmann Warr1024 ok sorry deleting what you don't need is good
13:41 erlehmann the thing is, tga support is not really something that hurts anyone, ever. removing it makes lots of people unhappy *precisely* because mineclone2 and mineclone5 have such a bad track record with releases.
13:42 erlehmann and even if they figure something out, they will have to have to carry a full tga decoder in lua forever
13:42 erlehmann which is a bit of a stretch
13:42 sfan5 if tga support never hurts anyone why does carrying a tga decoder in lua hurt anyone?
13:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Every feature that continues to exist is a burden, so every feature is always on trial and always needs to continue to justify its existence.  I think in the case of TGA, the justification existed but we don't have the infrastructure to easily hear that justification, so sometimes brandishing the axe is how that justification is elicited from the community.
13:43 erlehmann sfan5 because it needs to be written, tested, run for each world forever.
13:43 erlehmann basically multiple mods need to do the tga decoding themselves just to do a migration
13:43 erlehmann the tga decoder in minetest though was there and worked
13:43 erlehmann i absolutely hate it when ppl rip out support for something that worked for 10 years or so
13:43 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If nobody is hurt and nobody is helped by TGA then that would mean TGA should get the axe.  In this case, TGA DOES help someone so it can stay in for at least a little longer.  Whether it should be gone in the long run requires weighing the costs and benefits, which themselves I imagine we could debate a lot.
13:43 sfan5 that's more than "kept and run for each world forever" (the case of irrmt), reasonable
13:44 erlehmann again: axing any format in use has the old-servers-new-clients problem
13:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The way I understood it, we were hoping to provide a PNG encoder or something (IIRC one was necessary for other reasons already or something, so might as well make it available to modders) that could provide a sane upgrade path to replace TGA, and would also carry other benefits like reduced media size.
13:45 sfan5 @Warr1024 BMP was always an alternative to TGA (in fact I have no idea why anyone would choose it over BMP), MCL just has a special problem because it keeps those TGA files around
13:45 erlehmann more like mcl did not have a problem until someone pulled “tga is not used” out of thin air
13:45 erlehmann “As long as people are okay with changes given proper notice” is the important thing from Warr1024
13:46 erlehmann like everyone fixed their texture alphas
13:46 erlehmann bc minetest complains A LOT about it
13:46 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ah, okay, so it needs to persist the TGA files, it's not rebuilding them from some internal data?  Well, that would make migration trickier, though probably still not impossible at least.
13:46 sfan5 if it generated files at runtime it could switch to BMP right now and we would not be discussing it
13:46 erlehmann Warr1024 it can not ever rebuild them, it is snapshots of the map from above at some point in time
13:46 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Probably the better way to proceed would have been to make a PR that JUST adds deprecation notices.  We could have had the debate about upgrade path then.
13:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I don't think I've seen anyone do a deprecation-notice-only PR though, so it'd be a thing we would have to learn to do :-)
13:47 erlehmann you both have not understand how map art works i guess. you click the map, you get a map with something like minetestmapper in small.
13:47 erlehmann but for *that point in time*
13:47 erlehmann everything else would be an info leak
13:48 erlehmann also i believe some server operators may have replaced the tga files with other tga files to have posters, which is an even worse hack
13:48 sfan5 you have a habit of insinuating that others have not understood what is being discussed
13:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, so it decodes the existing TGA, draws pixels for the area you're mapping, and then writes back the new TGA.  You'd need an upgrade path that involves decoding the old TGA and then writing a PNG or something, and it would have to be done unconditionally even if you're not updating the map.
13:48 sfan5 speaking for me you have been consistently wrong
13:48 erlehmann sfan5 probably because i myself do that
13:48 erlehmann sfan5, ok i will try to be less dismissive, sorry
13:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean, I'm familiar with MC maps, and while I don't know the specifics of MCL-family maps, I understand the theory, and using TGA itself as the persistence format makes some sense
13:49 erlehmann Warr1024 and then you *still* have the problem that every minetest 5.5 client visiting a minetest server after 0.71 that does not have that hypothetical fix, can not see maps or use maps
13:49 erlehmann i mean after mineclone2 0.71, which includes mineclone5
13:50 sfan5 upgrading textures isn't actually that bad but as pointed about above (^) this doesn't work in an "new client, old server" setup
13:50 erlehmann seriously, there are a lot of hoops you can jump through, but in the end, tga files are as common as jpeg files
13:50 erlehmann like, rare, but used
13:50 sfan5 s/about/out/
13:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> and tbh removing TGA support from MT would not require changing that storage format, even, since the reason TGA was chosen I assume is that it does not REQUIRE a fancy decoder and can be done easily in pure lua.  It would only require that the TGA be written as PNG somewhere else before being sent to the client for display; TGA could still be used as the internal "database" format, which would also mean that it's still possible to
13:50 MTDiscord roll back to old versions of MCL without your maps being broken by a one-way upgrade.
13:50 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> jpeg is used because it's got lossy compression as compared to png, making it useful for i.e. skyboxes
13:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It would just require that (1) a sane usable PNG encoder is provided by the engine, and (2) MCL and derivatives need to have enough time to actually do the migration.
13:51 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> only reason tga was used for maps from what I can tell is because it's easy to write
13:51 erlehmann i just meant if you deprecate stuff on “is it used” alone, tga and jpeg are equals
13:52 erlehmann btw i am pretty sure fleckenstein won't do anything
13:52 erlehmann it will just be broken if tga does not come back
13:52 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> he seems to wanna fork the engine anyways
13:52 sfan5 right now we know but I bet if you asked a coredev a few months ago about TGA they'd say that they've never heard of a mod using it
13:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, "is it used" by itself is kind of a lousy metric for whether something should be deprecated, since (1) being used is not necessarily the same as getting value from it, and (2) we have been historically overconfident in our ability to measure it, and we don't really have effective means to tell for certain.
13:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> We have to assume that anything that's supported might be in use, but not assume that something being supported or being in use is itself overwhelming justification that it shouldn't be deprecated anyway.
13:56 erlehmann well i counted the filetypes in my cache folder
13:56 erlehmann if you don't have tga in there you *probably* have never played mineclone2 or mineclone5 this year
13:56 erlehmann (or played it in singleplayer and never had a map)
13:57 erlehmann appguru made something to check stuff anyway https://gist.github.com/appgurueu/6b99957fd597d0528080c9c457bdc877
13:57 erlehmann doesn't use libmagic, but maybe it gives insights
13:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Even if we didn't deprecate TGA for other reasons, I think there could be at least some value in providing a mod API for writing a PNG file from an array of some kind, and there's a way for mineclone(s) to use that API to make media more efficient and save bandwidth.
14:01 celeron55 i have 44k cache files and none of them are TGA
14:01 sfan5 the api for writing a PNG file already exists fyi
14:03 erlehmann Warr1024 mineclone2 will probably never “save bandwith”, we forked mineclonia from it because of stuff like that
14:03 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Awesome, given that the PNG API exists, it would probably benefit mineclon{e|ia} to look into using it for the media send and see if it's feasible and improves network efficiency...
14:04 erlehmann i find all of this deeply concerning
14:04 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Heh, well, that's sorta their problem then, from your perspective :-)
14:04 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You can only lead by example after all
14:05 erlehmann Warr1024 well i *kinda* want ppl to have an upgrade path for mineclone2 to mineclonia so it is very much my problem too sooner or later
14:06 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If TGA were deprecated it wouldn't mean you can't use TGA files, it would just mean that you wouldn't be able to display them to the client directly.  I'm just saying that (1) there's a way to work around that, and (2) that "workaround" actually has more benefit in itself, so it might be worth pursuing even if TGA support in engine is NOT deprecated.
14:07 erlehmann anyways, i hope “ripping out a non-deprecated thing without warning, in a minor release, without having consulted game devs or server owners or players who rely on it should not have happened” is hopefully a statement most of you agree?
14:07 erlehmann i mean i don't get why the alpha thing had warnings and all that
14:08 sfan5 depends on the "thing"
14:08 erlehmann or maybe there was a policy change
14:08 erlehmann ok i guess client-sent server mods were never deprecated. but they were also never really announced as a feature.
14:08 sfan5 funny
14:09 rubenwardy <erlehmann> yeah i probably don't want to add much features, wuzzy already tries so hard and it takes ages before they are reviewed.
14:09 rubenwardy as a core dev, you would only need one other reviewer so things get merged quicker
14:09 erlehmann i am entirely serious
14:09 rubenwardy I'm generally against people becoming core devs if they haven't already contributed much
14:10 rubenwardy although contributing to forks should count
14:10 erlehmann i have contributed stuff, it is just a long time ago
14:10 erlehmann do git log
14:10 erlehmann and scroll to the bottom
14:10 erlehmann i made the 3d clouds, for example
14:10 erlehmann granted, that's not magic
14:10 sfan5 erlehmann: if that is so I'm willing to hear a straight, complete explanation of whatever you are referring to by that
14:11 rubenwardy yeah, improving performance would be good
14:11 erlehmann i just want performance not regressing
14:13 erlehmann sfan5 i do *not* have a working exploit if you are asking me that
14:14 erlehmann so i can not explain, sorry
14:14 erlehmann i can try to work on one though
14:14 erlehmann but i think it would be better to have one for 5.5 ready
14:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've seen some people pushing to "modernize" which would necessarily mean dropping support for older hardware in order to take advantage of newer tech, and frankly I'm pretty torn about it.  I don't think it's reasonable to expect MT to never use newer features, and even to degrade its performance on newer tech, just to keep supporting old hardware no matter how old it gets.  I would like to be very cautious though about pushing
14:15 MTDiscord forward, and the fact that I mostly use systems in the 5 to 15 year old range, which many consider very old, colors my perspective :-|
14:15 erlehmann or whatever version actually enables server-sent client mods (just send a mod back if someone sends me one)
14:16 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I think one of the cool aspects of Minetest is that it runs on old hardware. And it effects me because I almost always use secondhand devices some of which are potatoes.
14:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm okay with requiring caution, warnings, deprecation periods and procedures, etc. as long as MT can always move forward.  Whatever we do needs to at least not kill innovation.
14:17 rubenwardy the thing is that even 10 year old computers support OpenGL 2+
14:17 erlehmann Warr1024 i think the main problem with people who insist that “modernizing” implies “dropping support for older hardware” is that people who are moderately bad at software architecture are rarely able or willing to put in the work that makes both ways work.
14:17 MTDiscord <Warr1024> re: second-hand hardware: I don't think I buy non-refurbs or non-used hardware anymore.  Fancy high-end brand-new just doesn't feel cost effective enough for me anymore.
14:18 sfan5 erlehmann: that is neither straight, nor complete nor an explanation
14:18 rubenwardy 10 year old hardware was modern hardware when Minetest was created
14:18 erlehmann yes
14:18 erlehmann the average programmer will just rip out X and replace it with Y, without putting in a proper abstraction layer
14:18 erlehmann thus making it impossible to support both old and new
14:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> erlehmann, you said it yourself, code is a burden.  Supporting arbitrarily old computers requires code to use older OGL versions, and code to tell which version of the supporting code to use, and compat hacks to emulate or gracefully degrade every new feature on older systems.  Eventually there comes a point where few enough of those old systems are surviving and in use that it doesn't make sense to keep supporting.
14:19 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Warr: I'm talking that old computer your relative thinks is dead so they give it to you and you chuck a Linux CD at it and brrrr
14:19 erlehmann good ones are like jwz, who has kept really old screensavers running and even did this strange openGL ES port for the iphone
14:20 erlehmann Warr1024 look i have a system in front of me that hecktest wants to desperately make unable to run minetest. i am willing to put in work.
14:20 sfan5 are you willing to write a fixed pipeline rendering driver? "just keep the old code" won't cut it
14:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> josiah: yeah, I buy refurbs for my "flagship" machines but I still get "dead -> linux CD -> brrrr" machines from family sometimes, and add them to the fleet :-)  I don't think I'd run MT clients on most of them, though some can make decent servers...
14:21 erlehmann sfan5, why will “keep the old code” not cut it?
14:21 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> because all that code is being scrapped, I guess
14:21 sfan5 we have to rewrite things to fix longstanding issus and make new things work
14:21 sfan5 +e
14:22 erlehmann lol “you can't keep it because we put it in the trash, without a suitable replacement”
14:22 rubenwardy Because the old code is irrlicht and that sucks
14:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Modern rendering is all shader-based and whatnot, it all changed since I learned anything about 3D.  As I understand it when you use a fixed pipeline, newer hardware is already doing some hacks to emulate that.  Eventually it will make a lot of sense to flip that around, and make the modern paradigm our baseline and throw in compat hacks for the older hardware.  At that time, the older hardware could be made to technically run but its
14:23 MTDiscord experience would probably be degraded in some way, either in performance or accuracy or both...  I don't think that's avoidable indefinitely though.
14:23 erlehmann look you have an abstract world model, that should be rendered with different ways. i don't really *get* it why it would not be abstracted away in the way a potato can render it and also a wearable fridge.
14:24 erlehmann like if you do it shader based, fine, but then abstract the meaning away from it please. like night vision, can be done with shader, can be done differently.
14:24 erlehmann i get the impression what is planned is that the shader model will be so tightly coupled that it will be impossible to do it otherwise
14:25 sfan5 your suggestion equates to "keep all the irrlicht using code and irrlicht itself and then add a new render that can be switched on additionally"
14:25 sfan5 which would essentially result in maintain two minetest clients at once
14:25 sfan5 maintaining*
14:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Abstraction does come at a cost and it's not actually practical to plan abstractions out ahead of time.  I've found it paralyzing, and given limited time and effort, often the only practical way forward is to build things concrete and sloppy at first and then add abstraction later once you find common patterns to abstract out.
14:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Git exists. As long as networking compat between versions is maintained it's not like people will be forced to upgrade to the newer, maybe slower version right away.
14:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Maintaining 2 minetest clients at once is already possible via a fork.  If the time comes, it may be necessary to consider that as the best option.  Trying to maintain 2 forks of MT inside a single src tree would be a lot less sane than just letting the split happen.
14:27 erlehmann it would be a lot more sane in my opinion to have 2 clients in one repo. lots of games have that.
14:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> josiah: yeah, same thing, really.  The difference between a fork and a branch is irrelevant to the software, we humans are the only ones who attach special meaning to it...
14:27 erlehmann think of roguelikes who often have a tile version and a terminal one
14:27 sfan5 yes, that is what about to say next: suppose someone wants to maintain such a fork that uses the old irrlicht forever it's much saner to do so in a fork
14:28 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: please don't run my script, it apparently kills CDB
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14:28 sfan5 poor rubenwardy
14:28 MTDiscord <luatic> Just change it to only scan the newest release and it should be fine
14:28 erlehmann oh lol
14:28 erlehmann i won't run it anyway, you are already running it right?
14:28 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's entirely possible that MT actually ends up as the "maintain old forever" fork and some other fork comes along with the modernization thing, and the community starts to shift over to the modern alternative, and a lot of this is taken out of our hands anyway.  Just because no fork in the past has reached that critical mass doesn't mean it could never happen.
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14:29 MTDiscord <luatic> I was, but then it died as CDB died
14:29 MTDiscord <Warr1024> luatic: if you want to be technically accurate, scan the newest release grouped by max version
14:29 MTDiscord <luatic> alright, back on track, only scanning the newest release this time
14:30 MTDiscord <Warr1024> er, min version
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14:40 sfan5 merging #11550 in 10m
14:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11550 -- Dynamic_Add_Media v2 by sfan5
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15:22 twoelk regarding the old supported file formats. The files mentioned in the wiki as accepted by the mt-engine were white-listed in server.ccp and as thus thought to be official though not all documented in the lua_api.txt by name. The pre July 22th wiki page made clear mt accepted only a subset of the file formats irrlicht could support.
15:36 erlehmann I get it, the plans were on display, in the cellar, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “beware of the leopard” and that maks it okay!
15:37 sfan5 a dev version doing something is not the end of the world, you know
15:38 erlehmann i just looked it up https://wiki.minetest.net/Creating_texture_packs#Creating_Textures
15:39 erlehmann > The minetest engine does not make use of all formats Irrlicht could use. The server only accepts the following file formats for graphics: .png .jpg .bmp .tga .pcx .ppm .psd .wal .rgb
15:39 erlehmann i have no idea what .wal and .rgb even are lol
15:40 MTDiscord <luatic> .rgb is a primitive format like .tga
15:41 jonadab .tga is probably Targa?  Man, there's a graphics format I haven't heard about any time recently.  I remember having software that supported it back in the DOS 5 era.
15:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ironically our sound format support is  ... what, like ogg vorbis only?
15:42 MTDiscord <Noodlemire> That's what I remember hearing (heh) before.
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15:42 jonadab Besides Vorbis, the only other sound format that you'd *want* to support, is flac.
15:42 rubenwardy mp3 was patent protected until recently
15:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'd actually want to upgrade to opus
15:42 rubenwardy don't we support wav?
15:42 jonadab wav would be easy to support, but wav files are gratuitously large; flac is strictly better.
15:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Not sure if wav support is even worth thinking about :-D
15:43 MTDiscord <Warr1024> flac is a strictly better alternative to wav, and opus would be the best option on the lossy side
15:43 jonadab I've not heard of opus as a sound format before.  Is it new?
15:43 erlehmann not particularly
15:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I would really like to add more sound diversity to my game in the future, but the impact of the audio file format's efficiency makes me wary of increasing the media size more.
15:44 erlehmann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_(audio_format)
15:44 erlehmann > Initial releaseSeptember 11, 2012
15:44 twoelk oops, my statement might be misunderstood. Thought to be official by wiki-editors such as me :-)
15:45 erlehmann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_(audio_format)#Quality_comparison_and_low-latency_performance
15:45 erlehmann twoelk what exactly did you want to say though?
15:46 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If someone uses a media format that's deprecated it shouldn't be too hard to throw a warning for it in the server logs.  I know that I actually check those when I test against a new release, so that would be a reasonable way to get the word out.
15:47 jonadab .bmp should definitely be deprecated, there is no legit reason to use it at this point, even MS Paint has supported PNG for a while.
15:47 jonadab pcx and ppm are even older.
15:47 erlehmann oh my
15:48 jonadab There's an argument for .psd, but then you'd also want .xcf for the same reason, and probably .xcf.gz, .xcf.bz2, and so on.
15:48 erlehmann even hecktest, slayer of file formats, left bmp in
15:48 jonadab Honestly, I think .psd and .xcf should be considered _source_ formats, and for actual use, export a .png.
15:48 erlehmann jonadab are your comments just some opinion or are there mods that use psd textures?
15:48 jonadab erlehmann: NOt that I'm aware of.
15:49 jonadab The argument in favor of the format would be, it supports layers and such, which formats like .png do not.
15:49 jonadab But again, I think I'd consider it a source format, and tell people to export a .png for actual use.
15:49 erlehmann jonadab i think this round of file format support dance is only slashing as much as possible
15:50 jonadab Also, deprecating a format is not the same thing as outright removing existing support for it.
15:50 erlehmann we will know about file formats at some point whe appguru script has run its course
15:50 erlehmann jonadab i think if it was deprecated i would not have flipped my shit about it
15:51 erlehmann i would still have thought it was an insane and dangerous idea
15:51 jonadab The recommendation should be to use .png, IMO
15:51 erlehmann well, provide an upgrade path for the stuff out there
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15:51 erlehmann spoiler: good luck
15:52 jonadab Upgrade path?  Are there image editors in widespread use that don't support .png at this point?
15:52 twoelk erlemann, ehm, just wanted to state wiki info was not rouge but researched - not really important anymore just a little annoyed
15:53 sfan5 jonadab: BMP has a point for dynamically writing textures from mods since it's so simple
15:54 sfan5 ofc we have a PNG encoder API now but before that BMP was a reasonable choice (yet mineclone chose tga...)
15:54 erlehmann if only there were mods that wrot textures dynamically, like tga
15:54 erlehmann look i am not defending mineclone2 choices here
15:54 rubenwardy lol, Irrlicht supported photoshop files?!
15:54 jonadab sfan5: Ah, I was not aware that mods could generate textures dynamically; that's a whole different kettle of fish then.
15:54 rubenwardy there's no way that's still valid
15:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I believe the reason BMP was left in was specifically as an alternative to TGA, i.e. one of the few file formats that supports uncompressed images and has a file format you could write the spec for on the back of a napkin
15:55 erlehmann i am advocating for the users who do not deserve to have their work undone because some ppl have a grudge against file formats
15:55 * twoelk thinks bmp just like ascii-text should always be supported as a fallback of sorts
15:55 sfan5 the reason BMP was left in is because Irrlicht internally uses it
15:55 erlehmann i believe the reason bmp was left in because some stuff does not work without it
15:55 sfan5 but I would have advocated for keeping a single simple & uncompressed format anyway
15:55 jonadab Ok, I can see that.
15:56 erlehmann twoelk, well the wiki was accurate before hecktest removed a lot of stuff recently
15:56 erlehmann accurate as in: the code suggested it would work
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15:56 erlehmann and mod devs do read the code to figure out what does work
15:57 twoelk yep, will need to add back in the reference to source info of where to find stuff
15:58 twoelk hecks did update the blender page in the wiki but missed other plages
15:58 twoelk -l
15:58 erlehmann well it doesn't really matter you know
15:58 twoelk sniff - but but the wiki should matter
15:59 erlehmann nah, what i mean: if something works for years explicitly coded in then the thing that matters is not if you “support” it (lol) but if it is used or not.
15:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Minetest: the engine that cannot correct the mistakes of the past because somebody is still using them.
16:00 MTDiscord <Jonathon> the wiki is general is outdated, so easier to not rely on it for anything
16:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The wiki asymptotically approaches reliable.
16:02 twoelk editor-time just as dev-time so rare these days
16:02 erlehmann i bet some ppl had more dev time if it was not tolerated to ruin other ppls stuff
16:02 erlehmann but i guess that ship sailed at some point (when was the backwards compat policy actually changed btw?)
16:03 MTDiscord <Noodlemire> I feel like if there was any interest (and that interest wasn't smothered by big red labels of DO NOT USE THIS!!!) it wouldn't be that hard to keep the wiki updated with each release.
16:03 erlehmann Warr1024 the linux kernel does not break userspace and magically still gets release
16:04 MTDiscord <Jonathon> and cough wuzzy cough active discouraging contributions to certain parts of the wiki
16:04 erlehmann Warr1024 does it mean it can not “correct the mistaks of th past” ?
16:04 erlehmann > active discouraging contributions
16:04 erlehmann what
16:04 erlehmann explain pls
16:04 MTDiscord <Jonathon> if your not going to keep it, delete it
16:04 MTDiscord <Jonathon> else dont keep it in a state of flux
16:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> wuzzy discourages contributions to dev wiki
16:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or at least a few months ago
16:06 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It does seem weird that we have a wiki that's often perceived as stuck in a state of brokenness, neither being fixed, nor fully deprecated.  The API info that's on there is like an amalgamation of snapshots in time of subsets of stuff...
16:06 twoelk do keep in mind though this all was triggered by the frustration that irrlicht was somewhat unmaintained. so it was forked and to make more easy to manage was reduced to the things mt actually uses.
16:06 MTDiscord <Jonathon> anyways, kinda suprised no one has told us to go to minetest-irc
16:07 rubenwardy erlehmann: with 5.0, the API should not break without a major release. This includes things documented in the Lua API
16:07 MTDiscord <Jonathon> well, #minetest for the irc/matrix folk
16:07 rubenwardy supported formats isn't documented at all, which makes it a grey area
16:07 MTDiscord <Warr1024> what constitutes "API" has proven to be nebulous though
16:07 rubenwardy TGA should probably be readded though
16:07 rubenwardy yeah, "API" isn't well defined
16:07 rubenwardy as there's lots of room to break mods without breaking the "API"
16:07 rubenwardy because of undefined behaviour
16:07 erlehmann “it is not documented, but pretty obviuously mentiond in the forum and the wiki”
16:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> by "API" it seems like the general meaning is "functions and their parameters" but it doesn't include things like knowing for certain whether a specific bug workaround is needed.  That latter thing, we have plans to at least improve, but it's also a bit in the air atm.
16:08 MTDiscord <Jonathon> the problem with erlehmanns statement is thats literally impossible to define
16:08 erlehmann i think breaking mods should be reserved for actually improving behaviour. not “just because”.
16:08 rubenwardy reducing the size of irrlicht does improve behaviour, it makes it more maintainable and allows removing it completely in the future
16:09 erlehmann well
16:09 erlehmann the thing is
16:09 rubenwardy unfortunately, some used formats fell victim
16:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^rubens statement
16:09 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The "behavior" of the project encompasses more than just what the compiled software does at runtime
16:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> correct me if im wrong, but isnt mineclone2 maps in the dev version still, not a stable version?
16:10 erlehmann Jonathon you can go to contentdb and download mineclone5 and make a map. or not, if you have a new enough version, lol.
16:10 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm pretty sure we agreed that removing  TGA the way it was done was a mistake already, though?  It's just that I disagree with the statement/implication that removing TGA at all is incorrect, or that there aren't other things we can and should remove.
16:10 MTDiscord <Jonathon> that is not what i asked
16:10 MTDiscord <Warr1024> the minecloniverse is more than just mineclone2...
16:10 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i explicitly asked about mineclone2
16:11 erlehmann let me look
16:11 MTDiscord <Jonathon> and so far everyone has given an answer for anything but that
16:11 MTDiscord <Jonathon> thanks
16:12 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Look, my workflow works for me, just add spacebar heating back, okay?
16:12 MTDiscord <luatic> Stop with this stupid example
16:13 erlehmann yeah the spacebar heating thing is stupid, why would i have to press a key for that even
16:13 MTDiscord <luatic> First of all, there's an actual reason those file formats are used: Either they are primitive and thus simple to generate, or they have features the other file formats do not
16:13 MTDiscord <luatic> The first one is the case for TGA; this was just recently made kinda unneeded by the introduction of the PNG writer
16:14 MTDiscord <luatic> The second one is the case for MD2; I'm not sure anyone uses it, but I'd sure like to try generating some fancy vertex animations
16:15 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Seems if anything someone should just make a tga reader to input into the png encoder
16:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Pretty sure MCL already has to have a TGA reader because they don't just generate them, they update them
16:15 MTDiscord <luatic> Removing MD2 means removing an actual feature, not just a "redundant" file format. Hecks themselves noted that. Why?
16:15 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> pretty sure they don't have a reader
16:15 erlehmann Jonathon i can not find a newer release than mineclone2 0.71 on the contentdb, but the “dirty secret” is that mineclone2. 0.71 is so laggy due to a rushed release that people often use mineclone2 git HEAD, mineclonia or mineclone5.
16:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> So yeah, with the PNG encoding feature, TGA is already moot, because there's no sane reason to continue to rely on the client supporting it even if it does.
16:16 MTDiscord <luatic> There is: Older servers don't have said feature.
16:16 erlehmann there are still 5.3 servers online
16:16 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Minetest generally requires you to have a new server for new features, while supporting old clients
16:17 MTDiscord <Jonathon> See the alpha change and all the mods that updated
16:17 MTDiscord <Jonathon> See entities that use collision on step data
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16:17 MTDiscord <luatic> Yeah but this way new clients will shit on old servers supplying them with TGA files because they can't properly generate PNGs
16:17 erlehmann has it ever happened before that a *new* client could not see a texture on an *old* server?
16:17 erlehmann bc i can't ever remember that
16:18 MTDiscord <luatic> This is just a mess all around, we'll see the scale of it after I get to analysing file extensions
16:18 erlehmann but i had a big gap in minetest playing/dev
16:18 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Tga isnt in the latest release of mineclone2, in the top of cdb, the forks are the issue
16:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> "It's never happened before" is a pretty thin argument for "it should never happen"
16:18 twoelk the player offset is the only client server version conflict I remember
16:18 MTDiscord <Jonathon> What warr said
16:19 erlehmann i did not make an argument, i wondered if this happened before
16:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Luatic: a problem with analyzing file extensions might be that you'll have a hard time catching all actual use of TGA since MCL already generates them dynamically...  but at least it will give us a good "best case"
16:19 erlehmann Jonathon i already told you ppl usually do not run the mineclone2 on contentdb.
16:19 MTDiscord <luatic> Yeah, OFC I can't catch dynamic generation.
16:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm pretty sure there are cases where servers have been unable to support both old and new clients smoothly due to breaking changes, especially in those "slip through the cracks" cases like when a bug actually gets fixed, but that breaks the workaround people have been using.
16:20 erlehmann in my cache, being on 2 mineclone5 servers alone is probably the reason why there are so many map TGAs
16:20 erlehmann it's a pretty well-liked feature
16:20 erlehmann i guess very few ppl here play those mods though
16:20 erlehmann otherwise they would have known about it months ago
16:21 erlehmann mineclone5 was a branch of mineclone2 btw
16:22 MTDiscord <luatic> I guess very few people have figured out how to compile MT 5.5-dev :P
16:22 erlehmann until it got its own release bc it's not EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT 1.12
16:22 erlehmann luatic that also
16:22 erlehmann it's a bit weird i mean
16:22 erlehmann i guess there will be a bunch of more breakage being reported in the future
16:22 erlehmann once there is a proper release with stuff removed
16:22 erlehmann no idea what it would be though
16:23 erlehmann i mean i am on the same page as you largely, “wait, *THAT* format was supported?”
16:24 MTDiscord <luatic> I am on board with the removal of redundant formats. I don't like the removal of features. And I don't like breaking compat in a minor release.
16:25 erlehmann so about the thing that reminds me of mineclone2 here
16:25 erlehmann they wanted newer mods, but instead of making a clean improvement
16:25 erlehmann they first ruined the API
16:26 erlehmann jordan4ibanez tried to improve them one by one
16:26 erlehmann and in the end they would have been better
16:26 erlehmann but his idea was “first remove the stuff that *will be useless*, then build something new”
16:26 erlehmann on master
16:27 erlehmann let's say it was also a factor in the mineclonia forking decision
16:27 erlehmann bc jordan kinda lost motivation halfway through
16:31 MTDiscord <Jonathon> so we have descended to erlehmann ranting about mineclone2 again
16:31 erlehmann i shall stop with that
16:32 erlehmann Jonathon thanks for calling me out
16:32 erlehmann luatic i am really interested in if md2 is used
16:33 erlehmann luatic any estimate when your analysis will be done? or is contentdb still easily taken down?
16:38 MTDiscord <luatic> my analysis will probably be done in an hour
16:38 MTDiscord <luatic> ruben has provided me with a full tar
16:38 twoelk is adding the glTF format still a thing?
16:39 MTDiscord <luatic> the download just finished
16:39 MTDiscord <luatic> now I'll wait 20 min to unpack it
16:39 MTDiscord <luatic> and after that I'll get to the analysis
16:39 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> twoelk: yeah, sometime soon™️
16:41 erlehmann luatic, how big is the tarball?
16:41 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> 24GB something
16:42 * twoelk wanders off to tinker some more on his cobblecastle
16:45 MTDiscord <Jonathon> btw rubenwardy or sfan5 is there a reason https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10324 has two approvals but has not been merged yet?
16:45 sfan5 we plan to frame it and keep it on a wall in the Minetest office for decorative purpoes
16:46 sfan5 (no there is not)
16:46 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> wait there's a minetest office? :P
16:46 MTDiscord <Jonathon> lol 😛
16:46 MTDiscord <Jonathon> its probably buried in the minetest-hub center somewhere
16:47 erlehmann oh i may have found another file format issue, let me check
16:48 erlehmann so in builtin/settingtypes.txt and minetest.conf.example …
16:48 erlehmann screenshot_format (Screenshot format) enum png png,jpg,bmp,pcx,ppm,tga
16:48 erlehmann have fun fixing that
16:48 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> yeah... that's been there for a while now
16:49 erlehmann yeah but if the encoders are removed, what *exactly* happens then?
16:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> seems thats a minor 2 line change
16:49 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> there's also https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/client/client.cpp#L673
16:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> for documentation at least
16:49 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> if you try to screenshot with a removed image format it'll just create an empty file
16:50 erlehmann that is not very nice
16:53 erlehmann in fact, i'd say changing “making a screenshot” to “not making a screenshot” sounds like a bug
16:53 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> yeah it's a bug
16:53 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> albeit an extremely minor one, which was why I didn't feel like going through the hoops for reporting or fixing it
16:54 erlehmann i mean, i don't particularly care, but it's another piece of evidence for “the file format massacre was at the same time too much and not thorough *enough*” ;)
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16:59 twoelk the fileformat massacre may have been somewhat hurried but it generated a new reviewer so we get a gain
17:09 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: https://gist.github.com/appgurueu/63ffccbdd72c18506dc22d5206394de1
17:09 MTDiscord <luatic> There even seem to be dae files
17:09 MTDiscord <luatic> No md2 though
17:10 erlehmann what is dae?
17:10 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> collada model format
17:10 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> which... uh, minetest/irrlicht has never supported as far as I'm aware
17:10 MTDiscord <Jordach> GLTF before GLTF
17:11 MTDiscord <luatic> phenom: that is wrong
17:11 MTDiscord <luatic> Irrlicht supports it for static meshes at least
17:11 MTDiscord <luatic> And IIRC MT does too...
17:11 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> oh
17:13 erlehmann twoelk don't worry too much about me getting anything done, if someone removes the code that makes minetest actually able to run on my machine, i'm gone again!
17:13 erlehmann luatic lol, there are more .dae than .x files
17:14 rubenwardy huh lol     nbe 19040
17:14 rubenwardy (nbe = NodeBoxEditor)
17:14 MTDiscord <luatic> it's all releases, not just the last release
17:14 twoelk mt did not support collada but irrlicht did
17:15 twoelk collada may have been used as import format for blender though
17:16 MTDiscord <luatic> PSD used to be supported, right?
17:16 MTDiscord <luatic> Because that shows a couple uses too: https://gist.github.com/appgurueu/63ffccbdd72c18506dc22d5206394de1#file-file_exts_cdb-txt-L162
17:16 erlehmann > psd575
17:16 twoelk https://wiki.minetest.net/index.php?title=Using_Blender&amp;oldid=26350 befor the file formats where thined out
17:16 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> pretty sure most of those are for source image files
17:17 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> like, psd is photoshop's non-destructive save option
17:17 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> similar to xcf for gimp and pdn for paint.net
17:17 erlehmann pretty sure you are trash talking available evidence
17:17 erlehmann do you have any proof that they are not directly loaded?
17:19 MTDiscord <luatic> wait, I'll extend my thingy to tell me where they are
17:21 erlehmann the mod name would be good maybe
17:31 rubenwardy found LMD's mods https://gist.github.com/appgurueu/63ffccbdd72c18506dc22d5206394de1#file-file_exts_cdb-txt-L175
17:31 rubenwardy (luatic=LMD)
17:32 MTDiscord <luatic> phenom: it looks like you were right
17:32 MTDiscord <luatic> Good Morning Craft, powerrangers_modpack and Pixel Perfection use PSDs the way you described
17:33 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> yeah
17:33 MTDiscord <luatic> So that does indeed narrow actual issues down to TGA I guess. Still kinda sad about the loss of MD2...
17:33 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> >mcmeta
17:33 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> wat
17:33 MTDiscord <Jordach> Yeah wat
17:34 erlehmann i am concerned about mods delivering .so and .jar files
17:35 rubenwardy ex: https://content.minetest.net/packages/LMD/adv_chat/
17:35 erlehmann what is this, minecraft?
17:35 rubenwardy Java is needed for a backend for the chat servic
17:35 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> what about that one exe file?
17:36 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> so is actually somewhat useful depending on the context
17:36 MTDiscord <Jordach> LMD can’t into Lua so he defers his code
17:36 rubenwardy oh that's probably just malware
17:36 erlehmann .mcmeta is https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Resource_Pack
17:36 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I know what it is
17:36 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Im asking why its in a Minetest mod
17:36 rubenwardy seeing .mcmeta would make me suspect license issues, someone porting a random MC resource pack
17:37 MTDiscord <luatic> @JORDACH it's just that JDA is about a million times better than the single Lua Discord lib, Discordia, there is.
17:37 MTDiscord <Jordach> I mean the alternative is just git gud
17:38 MTDiscord <luatic> The alternative is a shitton of work
17:38 MTDiscord <luatic> Yes, I am aware webhooks exist
17:38 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Just use JS like everyone else 😩
17:38 MTDiscord <luatic> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I don't think I will
17:38 MTDiscord <Jordach> JS interpreter in Lua
17:38 MTDiscord <luatic> Now that's absolutely disgusting
17:39 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> So is Java
17:39 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> btw most things are better tha discordia
17:39 MTDiscord <luatic> JDA > discord.js too
17:39 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> +n
17:39 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It could be fine if they didnt use luvit
17:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The amount of obvious .gitignore failure in that list is saddening, let alone .gitattributes failure.
17:40 MTDiscord <luatic> I decided to go with Java because I decided running a JAR is usually quite simple
17:40 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> whats wrong with including gitignore
17:40 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> there are usecases
17:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> No, I mean all the cases where .gitignore was NOT used, like all the *.lua~ and *.blend1 files
17:41 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> ah, ok yeah
17:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> backup files are a pre-source-control-ism.
17:41 MTDiscord <luatic> Why do you think Git was used in that cases :lennythink:
17:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> By saying "maybe they weren't using git" you're not exactly defending them either :-D
17:41 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> just as I thought, irrlicht's psd format loader is completely broken with modern psd files
17:42 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747163566800633906/885580812483985418/unknown.png
17:42 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> what makes me even sadder is the 23 THOUSAND mts files
17:42 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> which was also why I was so sure none mods actually use it
17:42 MTDiscord <luatic> yeah, that was the point hecks made for removal
17:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If a feature hasn't actually been working in a long time then you can be pretty confident that nobody is using it meaningfully :-)
17:43 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> wait im thinking of the wrong file type
17:43 erlehmann look i think if hecks is right about a thing it's mor of an accident
17:43 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> mtl is the one im thinking of
17:43 erlehmann with th filetypes
17:43 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> still a thousand mtl files, which is still sad
17:43 erlehmann this is clearly the first analysis done
17:43 erlehmann we are all surprised
17:44 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Im curious as to why there are so many text files
17:44 erlehmann sorry what is the problem with the mtl file?
17:44 rubenwardy Warr1024: I wonder if ContentDB should inject rules into .gitignore before making releases
17:44 rubenwardy .blend, .xcf, and others should probably never be included
17:44 rubenwardy well, I suppose the mod could be implementing a blend/xcf parser but that would be crazy
17:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> A warning might be nice
17:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> looks at LMD
17:45 erlehmann if you have a .obj model then you could load the textures from .mtl right?
17:45 rubenwardy oh yeah could be a bot message
17:45 rubenwardy which gives you an example gitignore
17:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I am 90% certain .mtl files are useless for Minetest
17:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> .gitattributes in most cases
17:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> it's export-ignore you want in the case of things like blend files, whereas gitignore is more about things like .lua~
17:45 erlehmann GreenXenith prove it
17:45 MTDiscord <luatic> GX: you're 100% right with that
17:45 rubenwardy right yeah, export-ignore
17:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> lmao prove it?
17:46 MTDiscord <luatic> TXT is used for API docs where MD should be used.
17:46 MTDiscord <luatic> MT has set a bad example in this regard.
17:46 MTDiscord <Warr1024> but I've been told that shit like .lua~ shouldn't go in project .gitignore files but instead into your user-wide ~/.git/exclude or whatever it's called, since the quirks of your editor is system-specific and not project-specific
17:46 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> how do you want me to prove something isnt supported?
17:46 MTDiscord <Warr1024> all of this is actually good content for that "how to trim your releases" FAQ :-D
17:46 MTDiscord <luatic> MTS files don't get sent to clients
17:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> mtl*
17:47 MTDiscord <luatic> They're not in the extension whitelist
17:47 MTDiscord <luatic> MTL* right
17:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> MTS is the schem format
17:47 MTDiscord <luatic> MTS neither :)
17:47 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> for the large amount of txt files, description.txt and depends.txt exists
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17:47 MTDiscord <luatic> true
17:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> erlehmann: https://wiki.minetest.net/Using_Blender#Exporting_OBJ
17:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> > There is no need to write the MTL file as Minetest will not parse it.
17:47 erlehmann GreenXenith ok oh
17:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> "proof" enough?
17:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> heh, if you could just set an entity's mesh to an mts file then that would solve the "customizable vehicles" / lua voxel-area entities problem :-D
17:48 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I could totally support that inlvae
17:48 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> in lvae*
17:48 erlehmann lol Warr1024
17:49 erlehmann yeah so irrlicht can load mtl for obj, but minetest does not use it?
17:49 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Dunno of irrlicht does or not, but Minetest doesnt so it doesnt matter
17:49 erlehmann does there exist a test case for it?
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17:53 twoelk source files needed to change a mod/model should be kept in contentdb imho even though mt might not be able to use them
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17:56 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> it's literally just a waste of space
17:56 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> if you really need it, clone the git repository
17:57 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Yeah, chances are anyone that cares about source files will be cloning
17:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I disagree with full src in every zip, I think source files should be kept in a public src repo and people should go directly there if they want the proper source, and contentdb downloads should be optimized for ordinary users.  Since src repos should contain all the source necessary/possible, that would unnecessarily bloat downloads from CDB which is unfairly burdensome against certain users, such as those on crappy mobile networks.
17:57 MTDiscord We should allow the user to choose between a "for use" vs "for development" use-case.
17:57 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> if you're doing development on the mod itself, you'd be doing that anyways
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17:57 erlehmann i think full source in every mod is neat
17:57 erlehmann please do not *forbid* it
17:57 erlehmann but warnings are neat too
17:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> yeah, I like the warning thing: the idea is to inform them of the choice, not to make it for them.
17:58 erlehmann also tbh the licensing often says you need to deliver the full corresponding source code
17:58 erlehmann which is easier that way
17:58 erlehmann without the user having to navigate somewhere
17:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If I wasn't able to exclude source from NodeCore's CDB download it'd be a little over 10x as large.
17:59 twoelk interestping problem
18:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> What I consider "source" is kinda funny in some cases :-)
18:00 twoelk what large sources does nodecore use?
18:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> For example, there's actually an MT world inside the repo
18:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> That world is the "source" for one of the screenshot images, which I need to be able to incrementally modify and then more or less recreate.
18:02 twoelk so to recreate that screenshot with a new added feature (that is actually visible) you need the complete world? sounds like streching the usecase somewhat
18:03 erlehmann yeah why not generate the world with a script?
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18:04 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's not a "complete" world, it's a hand-trimmed map.sqlite and a few metadata files necessary to recreate the world.  To make updates I have to run a script to re-delete the out-of-scope mapblocks that get regenned.  It's not huge.  But it's there, it adds up along with largeish blend files and such, and it would be of no value in the CDB download zip.
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18:05 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's a piece of actual mapgenned world with heavy hand modifications, I'd hate to have to express all this as a hand-written script.  The MT mapblocks are really the "preferred form for editing" for me. https://content.minetest.net/uploads/d9b55adeae.jpg
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18:05 erlehmann i still do not get it
18:06 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's part of the source so it goes in the repo.  It's just not part of the finished compiled product so it doesn't need to be in the download.
18:08 twoelk I consider this a different form of source than a file that you actually need to change a mod because the files that mt actually uses cannot be worked on directly
18:08 twoelk such as providing .blen files
18:08 twoelk .blend
18:09 erlehmann it is the source for the screenshot after all
18:09 erlehmann in fact the provenance of the mineclone2 mob models is unclear to me :/
18:10 twoelk then all texture packs need to supply the world used for the screenshot?
18:13 erlehmann if the screenshot is GPL or something i guess
18:13 erlehmann but it is a bad license for that
18:13 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> the thing about supplying the world is that it makes it easy to recreate at a later date when textures are changed or new features are implemented
18:16 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> plus any texture packs for the game can have a similar screenshot :]
18:19 twoelk I understand why it is there but I still don't consider it essential to be able to modify the mod while a source model or a source vector grafic for a pixel pic might very well be vital
18:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Each individual texture pack doesn't "need" to supply a world for a screenshot, but the fact that I share this world makes it a lot easier for texture pack authors to make screenshots that are easily comparable to other textures.
18:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If we want to make sure a mod author doesn't just make their repos private or some shit, that's a valid concern, but I'd still have a separate src vs. bin download option.
18:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's possible rubenwardy may already have to keep cached src repos or something for e.g. release-from-VCS on CDB, so maybe there's already a copy out there that could just be formalized in some way.
18:25 sfan5 so have we determined that except tga nobody actually used the other formats that were removed?
18:26 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> yeah, pretty much
18:49 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: where can I find the Minetest logo SVG?
18:49 MTDiscord <luatic> NVM I searched wrong it seems
18:49 MTDiscord <luatic> it's right there in misc/
18:49 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/misc/minetest.svg
18:49 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> oh lol
18:50 MTDiscord <luatic> This looks like a permission issue with the snap
18:50 MTDiscord <luatic> Don't do snaps kids
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20:27 pgimeno <sfan5> and also the two approvals requirement never really applied to repos other than minetest and minetest_game  <--  that's more of an oversight than an actual policy I suppose; it's just that no one thought of updating the policies when the MT fork was created. Or that's what I want to think.
20:29 pgimeno <sfan5> BMP was always an alternative to TGA (in fact I have no idea why anyone would choose it over BMP)  <-- you seem to think that BMP is easier to write than TGA, it's the other way around
20:30 pgimeno for TGA, write a 18 byte header then the palette if any, then the raw data; for BMP, write the header, then the palette if any, then the *padded* scanlines
20:30 pgimeno that alone is a reason to prefer it; that and the fact that it supports more formats
20:32 sfan5 huh ok
20:32 pgimeno I don't know if mineclone* needs to ever read back the data; if it does, and the data is in PNG format, that'd mean decoding the PNG on the Lua side, therefore a PNG writer might not be suitable
20:34 pgimeno for converting the TGAs to PNG it will certainly need to read them
20:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also isn't BMP the only format that requires the scanlines to be in reverse order?
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