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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2019-09-03

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:58 rubenwardy coming soon: https://rwdy.uk/9NDfU.png
01:00 rubenwardy why does CLion suck so bad
01:06 rubenwardy better pic: https://rwdy.uk/wcM09.png
01:09 rubenwardy I think I may make it have a simple were it just shows you what CDB has found, and then you can click   [Cancel]  [Edit]  [Install]
01:09 rubenwardy edit would then go to that screenshot
01:09 rubenwardy that would only work if CDB finds everything that is required
01:10 rubenwardy I may also disable the [Edit] to begin with, and only allow installed the preselected choices
01:10 rubenwardy which is fine for 99.999% of mods
01:29 rubenwardy here's a mock simple mode: https://rwdy.uk/J33Zi.png
01:30 rubenwardy this will display if there are no problems with the selection that ContentDB choose
01:30 rubenwardy ie: contentdb is able to find all hard dependencies
01:31 rubenwardy actually, maybe it should always show. Advanced isn't going to be that useful if it can't find the dep
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06:08 BuckarooBanzai rubenwardy: oh, that looks good :)
06:09 BuckarooBanzai rubenwardy: isn't that painful to implement in formspecs? :/
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09:29 p_gimeno rubenwardy: I've been thinking of implementing something similar but in the mod selection dialog. The main hurdle is that with my idea, I would need something like a modal dialog containing a list, on top of another formspec. Is there any way to do something similar?
09:31 ANAND p_gimeno: Check out builtin/fstk
09:31 ANAND It's a Lua API created by sapier, that builds on top of the existing formspec API
09:32 p_gimeno ANAND: interesting, what do you mean "builds on top"? as in, can show two formspecs simultaneously?
09:32 ANAND Not sure about that
09:32 ANAND See also, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/fst_api.txt
09:34 p_gimeno hm, my understanding is that that's simply a structured way of creating the formspec string, it's not adding functionality to it
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09:35 p_gimeno what I need is one modal formspec on top of another (visually)
09:35 ANAND There are show and hide methods, but I doubt they allow displaying two formspecs at once
09:35 p_gimeno yeah
09:44 p_gimeno or, well, some other way to convey the info (a list of mods) and to offer options (buttons)
09:44 p_gimeno maybe it can be done by temporarily replacing elements in the existing formspec
09:47 p_gimeno my initial idea was: when you activate a mod in the form and it depends on others that are installed but not active, to show a modal dialog with a list of the mods that are needed, and choose between activating them as well, or deactivate the one you've selected
09:48 p_gimeno and if it depends on at least one mod that is not installed, to show a modal dialog with an error explaining what mods are missing, and only the option to deactivate it again
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09:49 p_gimeno similarly, when deactivating a mod that others depend on, to show a modal dialog offering between deactivating the others as well, or re-enabling that one
09:50 p_gimeno in other words, to keep the mod list consistent at all times when manipulating mods, instead of being able to leave it in a state where there are inactive dependent mods
09:50 nepugia p_gimeno, you can't show two formspecs simultaniously, but you can probably fake your way to victory
09:51 nepugia by only adding a backgroun behind elements that need it and having a gap between both sections
09:54 p_gimeno nepugia: I don't get what you mean, do you think you can show an example?
09:54 nepugia Well, i mean with displaying two formspecs you mean to show two side by side?
09:55 p_gimeno one on top of the other, a modal dialog
09:55 p_gimeno i.e. one partially hiding the other
09:56 nepugia You can achieve that in an upper api indeed
09:56 nepugia by modifying the "lower" formspec to cut elements to a specific size to allow the upper formspec some room
09:57 p_gimeno can you have overlapping elements in a formspec?
10:02 p_gimeno anyway, it's going to be big, and if it's hard to get big PRs merged, it's even harder when I'm not in GitHub
10:42 nepugia p_gimeno, yes you can
10:42 nepugia but it doesnt look pretty :)
10:43 nepugia i dont think there is any need to merge something like this, if a mod wants somethign like that they can just depend on the mod that provides it
10:44 p_gimeno nepugia: this idea is not for mods, it's for the mod selection menu when configuring the world
10:44 p_gimeno the dependencies that it would read are the dependencies stated in the mod
10:44 nepugia why do you need overlapping formspecs there?
10:44 p_gimeno to show a modal dialog
10:45 nepugia for what? :)
10:46 nepugia the easiest way would be to just dismiss the underlying formspec, and bring it back once the dialog would be closed
10:47 p_gimeno say you activate mesecons_luacontroller but you don't activate mesecons; the modal dialog would immediately show saying "To activate mesecons_luacontroller the following mods need to be enabled: mesecons  [Activate all] [Deactivate mesecons_luacontroller]"
10:47 nepugia why? just activate the dependencies
10:47 p_gimeno silently?
10:47 nepugia yes
10:48 p_gimeno I don't like to do things behinds the user's back
10:48 nepugia the users intention is to use mesecons_luacontroller
10:48 nepugia dependency management is too complicated for end users, and shouldnt be shown to them normally
10:48 p_gimeno this is a simple example, but in other mods the dependency chain could be larger, and they may be activating something they don't want
10:49 p_gimeno (e.g. a mobs mod with unwanted mobs)
10:49 nepugia then when a mod is selected show a list to the right of it with dependencies that will be activated too
10:49 nepugia p_gimeno, that is moot, because you cant not activate them
10:50 p_gimeno you can choose to not activate that one... take into account that once they are activate, you need to go one by one to disable them
10:50 p_gimeno active*
10:50 nepugia nah, you can track which ones were dependencies and immidiently deactivate them
10:50 p_gimeno and maybe disable one that was enabled and you wanted...
10:51 nepugia How should a user know that it is enabled if they did not enable it themselves?
10:51 nepugia users dont read modal dialogs
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10:52 nepugia also, the assumption is that all listed dependencies are absolutely required, and if the user expresses intent to use a mod then the dependencies have to be activated
10:53 nepugia its like, in an office programm, you could prompt for each keypress whether it was correct, after all a user may have mistyped which could lead to more correct text, but it heavily degrades the ui
10:53 p_gimeno say a mod A depends on B, C and D, and you voluntarily have C active, because you want it. Now you enable A, and automatically get B and D enabled. Now you regret that B was enabled, and go through the dependencies of A and disable B, C and D. You end up disabling a mod you wanted active.
10:54 p_gimeno actually what I'm proposing is something I've seen used in the Windows service manager
10:55 nepugia You mean like, a tool used by administrators that users wont touch?
10:56 p_gimeno if the user expresses intent to enable a mod, but that forces them to enable another mod they didn't want, they need a chance to regret the decision
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10:57 nepugia After they have enabled it
10:57 nepugia There is no point in questioning each and every action the user takes
10:58 p_gimeno but that may have unwanted consequences, many mods may become automatically enabled and they may not like that
10:58 p_gimeno perhaps colour codes for the dependency list could be a substitutive
10:58 p_gimeno one colour for "when you enable this mod, all these other mods will be automatically enabled"
10:59 nepugia indicating what consequence their action has is fine
10:59 p_gimeno another colour for "this mod depends on mod X which is not installed"
10:59 nepugia questioning their actions is not
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11:00 p_gimeno that doesn't solve disabling, though, because for disabling, the list that should be shown is the list of mods that depend on the selected one, not the list of mods that the selected one depends on
11:04 p_gimeno what you call questioning the actions of the user, I call giving them information they may not have thought of, before making their decision final
11:10 nepugia You are supposed to provide the information beforehand
11:10 nepugia not after they already made a decision
11:10 nepugia it's like asking someone to buy a watch and after they agree to buy them price you tell them "oh by the way, this watch is highly radioctive, are you really sure you want to buy it?"
11:11 nepugia the list of "activated" mods doesnt need to show the ones that are enabled as dependencies, their state is irrelevant to the user
11:12 nepugia if they choose to disable a mod you should then list all the mods that that will disable, which includes and mods that depend on this mod, and any that are activated only because of this mod
11:17 ANAND p_gimeno: Why modal tho?
11:20 p_gimeno ANAND: if you enable a mod, popping up a modal window that allows you to confirm seems like the right thing to do. Kinda like the confirmation dialog you get in a save dialog when going to overwrite a file.
11:22 nepugia but you /arent/ overwriting a file
11:22 p_gimeno nepugia: "any that are activated only because of this mod" needs tracking which ones were activated by hand and which ones were manually enabled, kinda like the Debian package manager. That needs tracking extra info (manual vs automatic), complicating things a lot more, even for the user.
11:22 nepugia and most save dialogs that overwrite files do not have one
11:22 nepugia no, its just a list of automatic activations
11:22 nepugia it isnt that complicated
11:22 nepugia you dont need to track by whom they have been activated
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11:23 p_gimeno sorry, I meant "and which ones were automatically enabled"
11:24 ANAND p_gimeno: That doesn't strictly require the parent formspec to be visible though :)
11:24 ANAND Take for example the change setting dialog
11:24 nepugia p_gimeno, same response
11:25 ANAND When you double-click on a setting, the adv. settings window will disappear, and you'll be shown a simple dialog box
11:25 nepugia it makes it easier on the user, not more compilcated
11:25 nepugia dealing with modal dialogs sucks
11:25 ANAND Yea
11:25 ANAND It might look cool, but... why?
11:26 p_gimeno ANAND: yeah I see, but isn't the formspec recreated that way?
11:26 nepugia you can "recreate" formspecs all the time
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11:27 p_gimeno in the mod selection dialog there's some state, it would need to be remembered and recreated later
11:28 p_gimeno I've noticed that the settings modal dialog doesn't respect the scrollbar position, it always scrolls down the selected item to the bottom of the window
11:30 p_gimeno in fact, it also collapses the other options I had open; that's bad
11:30 nepugia if you emulate a new formspec to get a modal dialog you will "recreate" the formspec too
11:31 nepugia so if any state is lost it will happen either way
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11:54 rubenwardy p_gimeno: with that formspec order pr, you could use boxes to simulate the affect
11:57 p_gimeno nice
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12:04 p_gimeno rubenwardy: #8740 ?
12:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8740 -- Make formspec elements real elements for draw order and clipping by DS-Minetest
12:06 rubenwardy Yeah
12:07 p_gimeno I might develop a PoC of the idea in LOVE instead of MT
12:08 rubenwardy BuckarooBanzai: it's a real formspec, just no code to fetch and resolve dependencies yet
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12:36 kilbith celeron55: may I ask why you didn't use occlusion queries from the beginning in MT?
12:38 kilbith I have an (almost) working prototype, but I wonder whether it fits to MT due to its architecture
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12:48 celeron55 i don't remember
12:48 celeron55 possibly because on a slow gpu everything takes away from fps
12:49 celeron55 i'm pretty sure nobody is using an i945 these days anymore though
12:49 celeron55 it was old 8 years ago
12:49 kilbith hardware occlusion is likely faster now
13:02 celeron55 as long as it helps everyone it's good
13:03 kilbith so here is the problem exposed: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8894
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16:35 BuckarooBanzai celeron55: while you are here: thanks for starting the minetest project :)
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18:15 sfan5 merging #8895
18:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8895 -- Fix Inventory::moveItemSomewhere() by sfan5
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