| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:04 |
paramat |
merged |
| 00:10 |
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| 00:21 |
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| 01:00 |
paramat |
#5476 , needs testing |
| 01:00 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5476 -- Sneak glitch option: Add ability to climb onto a 2 node high ledge by paramat |
| 02:32 |
epoch |
I'll test. |
| 02:33 |
epoch |
first: git add remote paramat https://github.com/paramat/minetest |
| 02:33 |
epoch |
then: git pull paramat |
| 02:33 |
epoch |
then: git checkout pullup |
| 02:33 |
epoch |
right? |
| 02:38 |
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| 02:40 |
epoch |
hrm. got a segfault. |
| 02:56 |
epoch |
can't make it do that again atm. |
| 03:05 |
paramat |
thanks |
| 03:05 |
epoch |
climbing up two block at a time works alright. |
| 03:05 |
paramat |
i only know how to test PRs by another way of applying the patch |
| 03:06 |
epoch |
(I have ulimit -c unlimited this time just in case it does segfault.) |
| 03:06 |
epoch |
I wasn't even doing anything at the time of segfault. Window was on a different tag. |
| 03:07 |
epoch |
can't climb up 3. |
| 03:07 |
paramat |
nope, good |
| 03:08 |
epoch |
every once in a while an error message shows up on the log, but that's probably unrelated. |
| 03:08 |
epoch |
2017-03-28 22:00:53: ERROR[Emerge-0]: EmergeThread::finishGen: Couldn't grab block we just generated: (-3,-3,3) |
| 03:09 |
kaeza |
would it be possible to use the "Projects" feature in Github to track sneaking issues (and possibly CSM)? I think some folks may like that |
| 03:11 |
paramat |
your error message seems unrelated |
| 03:11 |
epoch |
a sneak elevator works. |
| 03:11 |
paramat |
i don't know anything about that github feature |
| 03:12 |
paramat |
the testing needed is more to check if this introduces bugs in other situations |
| 03:12 |
paramat |
so far it seems ok |
| 03:16 |
epoch |
if I let go of sneak during mid elevator climb, should I be falling slowly or normal speed? |
| 03:16 |
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| 03:17 |
epoch |
I can stop myself sometimes just by hitting sneak while I'm falling facing the elevator. |
| 03:17 |
epoch |
sometimes it just slows me down. |
| 03:18 |
paramat |
sometimes there is a slow sinking |
| 03:19 |
paramat |
behaviour may be slightly different to before, just as long as there is no problematic behaviour |
| 03:22 |
paramat |
and another #5478 fairly trivial cleanup |
| 03:22 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5478 -- Paramtype2: Add missing type CPT2_GLASSLIKE_LIQUID_LEVEL by paramat |
| 03:23 |
VanessaE |
glass...liquid. that reminds me, can a new drawtype for framed glasslike be added where there is no liquid at all? i.e. just glass and frame, so that 256-color param2 colorization can be applied to it? |
| 03:26 |
paramat |
well if this is merged, a different paramtype2 used with that drawtype could then activate colouring |
| 03:26 |
paramat |
it would be an option within the same drawtype |
| 03:27 |
paramat |
^^ sofar if possible could you review? fairly simple |
| 03:27 |
VanessaE |
I'm just thinking of RBA's "framed glass" mod that comes with technic modpack. I wanted to convert that one over, but no dice. |
| 03:29 |
paramat |
i think this must be MT's most hidden feature ... until now |
| 03:43 |
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| 03:59 |
epoch |
running a server on my laptop if you want to join and test out the pullup change. |
| 04:04 |
paramat |
i'm too busy but thanks |
| 04:04 |
paramat |
game#1673 corresponding PR for mtgame, trivial |
| 04:04 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1673 -- Glasslike_framed nodes: Add 'glasslikeliquidlevel' paramtype2 by paramat |
| 04:12 |
paramat |
^ both PRs tested together and they work |
| 04:13 |
paramat |
another long english night of coding |
| 04:21 |
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| 09:02 |
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| 09:03 |
glut32 |
hi all |
| 09:03 |
kilbith |
oh no, not you |
| 09:04 |
kilbith |
get back to work, lazy ass |
| 09:04 |
glut32 |
ah ah |
| 09:05 |
glut32 |
I have problem to generate a minetest executable with irrlicht 1.9 on xcode |
| 09:05 |
glut32 |
I have 3 links error about stl |
| 09:06 |
glut32 |
I put a message on the forum : https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17119&p=260855#p260855 |
| 09:17 |
nerzhul |
irrlicht 1.9 is not released, i don't think we really support it |
| 09:17 |
nerzhul |
i think you should talk with irrlicht developpers themselves |
| 09:18 |
nerzhul |
it's not related to MT |
| 09:33 |
glut32 |
ok |
| 09:57 |
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| 11:34 |
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| 11:34 |
nerzhul |
merging 5471 |
| 11:35 |
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| 13:05 |
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| 13:06 |
VanessaE |
what was the reasoning behind forcing the minimap to be turned on, and can't be turned off with F9 unless it's turned on in the config, when CSM is enabled? |
| 13:06 |
VanessaE |
apparently that "preview" mod forces it. |
| 13:08 |
VanessaE |
and it's a blank minimap at that. |
| 13:10 |
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| 13:16 |
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| 13:38 |
red-004 |
the blank minimap is a bug |
| 13:39 |
VanessaE |
the existence of it is a bug :P |
| 13:39 |
VanessaE |
(for some users, turning minimap on costs FPS. not sure if that's the case with my setup, I haven't checked recently) |
| 13:39 |
red-004 |
as for why it forces minimap to be on ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 13:39 |
nerzhul |
VanessaE: just disable preview mod |
| 13:40 |
VanessaE |
nerzhul: I know I can do that, but that means altering my engine install. |
| 13:40 |
nerzhul |
it will be disabled/removed at release to prevent those problems, but should be kept in master |
| 13:40 |
VanessaE |
(or mt_game, whichever) |
| 13:40 |
nerzhul |
VanessaE: you need CSM enabled ? |
| 13:40 |
red-004 |
VanessaE, remove /clientmods/preview? |
| 13:40 |
VanessaE |
I do. |
| 13:40 |
VanessaE |
cheapie made a nice chat mod that reworks it to look like hexchat |
| 13:40 |
red-004 |
link? |
| 13:41 |
VanessaE |
with highlighting, colored nicks, and so on |
| 13:41 |
VanessaE |
you would askk. |
| 13:41 |
sfan5 |
nerzhul: it's still stupid that the default csm mod breaks some things |
| 13:41 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/cheapie/chat6 |
| 13:41 |
nerzhul |
sfan5: CSM doesn't break things itself |
| 13:42 |
VanessaE |
anyway my point is, I don't like to modify the default install of something. |
| 13:42 |
nerzhul |
and it's not default csm mod, but preview, but i don't found the bug on toggling minimap sometimes having blank map |
| 13:42 |
sfan5 |
>it's not default csm mod, but preview |
| 13:42 |
sfan5 |
that's what i meant |
| 13:42 |
VanessaE |
nerzhul: if you have minimap disabled in your config, then F9 won't turn it off when "preview" turns it on |
| 13:42 |
VanessaE |
that's breakage |
| 13:42 |
VanessaE |
plus it costs you startup time on big servers |
| 13:42 |
nerzhul |
VanessaE: it's nice that cheapie ate messages and uses red-004 work to enhance chat, it's the goal |
| 13:42 |
red-004 |
werid I think I can turn the minimap off |
| 13:43 |
nerzhul |
VanessaE: oh you mean the API doesn't care about settings ? |
| 13:43 |
VanessaE |
nerzhul: I mean the key is ignored. |
| 13:43 |
VanessaE |
I don't know how that plays with settings et al. I just know what cheapie and I experienced. :) |
| 13:43 |
nerzhul |
preview mod toggle minimap on using core.after(2) call |
| 13:43 |
nerzhul |
but it doesn't toggle it more, after you are free to re-untoggle it |
| 13:43 |
VanessaE |
apparently you are not. |
| 13:44 |
VanessaE |
not if it's *disabled* in your global config |
| 13:44 |
VanessaE |
I guess if it is, F9 is just ignored outright |
| 13:44 |
red-004 |
I think it works for me |
| 13:44 |
nerzhul |
okay, then the problem i think is key toggling is disabled and respect config, but API can enable it, whereas config doesn't want |
| 13:44 |
nerzhul |
then it's simple, just don't permit to toggle minimap in the API call |
| 13:44 |
nerzhul |
like the key binding |
| 13:45 |
nerzhul |
wait a minute, i look at the current code for both parts |
| 13:45 |
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| 13:45 |
VanessaE |
nerzhul: right, that sounds fair |
| 13:45 |
VanessaE |
if disabled in settings, it shall be disabled permanently. |
| 13:46 |
nerzhul |
yes ofc, i think this usecase is not handled by API |
| 13:47 |
nerzhul |
yes it's that |
| 13:47 |
nerzhul |
void Game::toggleMinimap(bool shift_pressed) |
| 13:47 |
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| 13:47 |
nerzhul |
a verification is done here |
| 13:47 |
nerzhul |
i will do same verification in minimap:show() call |
| 13:47 |
nerzhul |
sfan5: permitted to push to master this fix in l_minimap.cpp ? |
| 13:48 |
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| 13:48 |
sfan5 |
if its simple enough, sure |
| 13:49 |
nerzhul |
sfan5: https://pastebin.com/kx5hu3KR |
| 13:49 |
nerzhul |
okay for you ? |
| 13:49 |
sfan5 |
if you remove the { and } yes |
| 13:49 |
nerzhul |
okay i push it without brace and a little comment |
| 13:50 |
nerzhul |
pushed |
| 13:51 |
VanessaE |
thanks, nerzhul |
| 13:51 |
VanessaE |
now I can tell the minimap to go to hell ;) |
| 14:03 |
Fixer |
compiled just minutes before this in, reeeeeeee |
| 14:03 |
sfan5 |
>not using pre-made build |
| 14:04 |
nerzhul |
VanessaE: np |
| 14:08 |
jin_xi |
so now you can turn of minimap and not suffer fps penalty for unused feature? |
| 14:09 |
Fixer |
there were no penalty more or less if it was not turned on |
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|
Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/ |
| 15:57 |
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| 17:53 |
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| 17:53 |
zorman2000 |
Quick question, and sorry if wrong channel |
| 17:54 |
zorman2000 |
With mod security enabled, require() aren't possible? Even if mod is trusted? |
| 17:56 |
sfan5 |
making a mod "trusted" effectively disables all security |
| 17:56 |
sfan5 |
so yes its possible |
| 17:56 |
kaeza |
zorman2000, it is, but the global `require` is disabled. you must request an insecure environment |
| 17:56 |
sfan5 |
huh |
| 17:57 |
kaeza |
and use the `require` function provided by it |
| 17:57 |
sfan5 |
indeed forgot about that |
| 17:58 |
kaeza |
zorman2000, see, e.g. https://github.com/minetest-mods/irc/blob/master/init.lua#L6 |
| 18:00 |
zorman2000 |
kaeza, I have, but it doesn't work for me. |
| 18:01 |
zorman2000 |
I have actually copied your code and slightly modified |
| 18:01 |
zorman2000 |
I do this: https://paste.ubuntu.com/24275928/ |
| 18:01 |
zorman2000 |
And get this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24275936/ |
| 18:01 |
zorman2000 |
My code is in init.lua |
| 18:02 |
sfan5 |
you are using require inside your "Jumper" code |
| 18:02 |
sfan5 |
it needs to use the insecure environment there too |
| 18:02 |
kaeza |
^ |
| 18:02 |
zorman2000 |
Ohhhhhh |
| 18:02 |
sfan5 |
but to me it looks like you want to use dofile() instead anyway |
| 18:03 |
zorman2000 |
Well, that is an external library, not something I wrote. |
| 18:03 |
zorman2000 |
And I believe the require() return a reference to the file, does "dofile()" does that as well? |
| 18:04 |
sfan5 |
i don't think so |
| 18:04 |
kaeza |
zorman2000, require returns whatever the main chunk of the file returns. dofile does that as well |
| 18:04 |
sfan5 |
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 18:04 |
sfan5 |
you will need to adjust the external library to work within minetests environment too |
| 18:05 |
zorman2000 |
Got it |
| 18:05 |
zorman2000 |
Thanks sfan5 and kaeza |
| 18:05 |
kaeza |
sure |
| 18:26 |
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| 18:38 |
Krock |
merging game#1558 and game#1670 in 15 minutes |
| 18:38 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1558 -- 用creative.is_enabled_for替æ¢minetest.setting_getbool("creative_mode") by zaoqi |
| 18:38 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1670 -- doors: add groups to the door craftitem by cx384 |
| 18:38 |
Krock |
2nd one is somewhat trivial, no need for a 2nd approval |
| 18:51 |
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| 19:00 |
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| 19:12 |
paramat |
once i address the requests is #5478 ok to merge? if no objections i'll merge it in 3hrs along with game#1673 |
| 19:12 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5478 -- Paramtype2: Add missing type CPT2_GLASSLIKE_LIQUID_LEVEL by paramat |
| 19:12 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1673 -- Glasslike_framed nodes: Add 'glasslikeliquidlevel' paramtype2 by paramat |
| 19:13 |
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| 19:17 |
nerzhul |
paramat, you should have approvals paramat :), sorry i cannot add mine as i don't know this part very well |
| 19:24 |
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| 19:28 |
paramat |
yes. sfan5 nore ^^ ok to merge once i address requests? |
| 19:38 |
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| 19:43 |
paramat |
closed game#1672 , duplicate |
| 19:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1672 -- [Revamp] We need a direction for Minetest Game |
| 20:27 |
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| 20:44 |
Fixer |
catched fps drop bug without ever enabling minimap, will try with antijitter disabled |
| 20:44 |
nerzhul |
Fixer, nice |
| 20:45 |
Fixer |
this is bad |
| 20:45 |
Fixer |
bug is random and hard to catch and drop is noticable |
| 20:46 |
Fixer |
need to check day/night transition, had weird sence that it appeared after day/night change |
| 20:49 |
Fixer |
mapblocks were loaded around pretty good/farmed some trees/used zoom/walked a bit -> sudden fps drop (evident even if looking at sky with zoom with minimum vrange |
| 20:59 |
Fixer |
there were no mesh updates or anything, the curve was smooth, too smooth |
| 21:02 |
epoch |
is there a setting to change length of day? |
| 21:06 |
red-004[IRC] |
yes |
| 21:07 |
red-004[IRC] |
iirc time_speed |
| 21:13 |
Fixer |
videocard is in good health, not linked to this drop |
| 21:16 |
Fixer |
vanessa also told me about this strange fps drop, but much earlier, no idea if it is same issue or different |
| 21:18 |
epoch |
heh. setting time_speed to 10000 makes those celestial bodies move quickly. |
| 21:20 |
epoch |
are there hooks that get called each sunrise and sunset? |
| 21:21 |
Fixer |
fps_max = 0 engaged |
| 21:21 |
kaeza |
epoch, no |
| 21:26 |
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| 21:27 |
Fixer |
my sky fps is around 200... yet with bug it is only 70 |
| 21:27 |
Fixer |
will look more, very hard to catch it |
| 21:28 |
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| 22:19 |
VanessaE |
has a way been added yet to prevent a dig/place action from being recorded in the rollback log? |
| 22:25 |
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| 22:30 |
paramat |
i doubt it, i think the action is non-optional currently |
| 22:31 |
Fixer |
my ooms in dreambuilder were caused by technic-worldgen iirc |
| 22:32 |
VanessaE |
Fixer: caused by? no. happens with it installed? perhaps, but afaik worldgen doesn't do anything memory-heavy, it just spawns ores. |
| 22:32 |
VanessaE |
and those are mostly done directly by the engine anyway |
| 22:32 |
VanessaE |
but my last two OOMs were in mesecons, of all places. |
| 22:34 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: technic-worldgen with "OOM error from mod 'kek' in callback environment_OnGenerated(): not enough memory" |
| 22:34 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: same for darkage |
| 22:35 |
VanessaE |
http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/24277287/ |
| 22:35 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: lua mem usage is up to 80mb and then OOM with technic-worldgen |
| 22:35 |
VanessaE |
not in this case, Fixer. |
| 22:36 |
VanessaE |
pretty sure environment_Step is not technic. |
| 22:36 |
Fixer |
i was testing in clean map |
| 22:36 |
Fixer |
2017-03-29 23:35:55: ERROR[Main]: Current Lua memory usage: 984 MB |
| 22:37 |
VanessaE |
that ^ was on my Dreambuilder Survival server./ |
| 22:39 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: anyway welcome to the OOM club |
| 22:39 |
VanessaE |
HAH! |
| 22:40 |
VanessaE |
the sad part is over the past couple of months, I've been working to reduce the memory usage of the modpack. guess it wasn't enough :P |
| 22:43 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: somewhere in 0.4.12-13 I had OOM on default game after about record breaking 8 hours of nonstop walking |
| 22:45 |
nore |
Fixer: default game does use luavm a bit, doesn't it? |
| 22:45 |
nore |
or at least perlin map |
| 22:46 |
nore |
imho there is very probably a leak somewhere |
| 22:47 |
Fixer |
nore: i had it only once |
| 22:47 |
nore |
hmmmm |
| 22:51 |
paramat |
looking at technic worldgen .. |
| 22:51 |
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| 22:52 |
paramat |
it does use lvm and doesn't use the data buffer optimisation |
| 22:55 |
paramat |
.. for sulfur |
| 22:56 |
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| 22:57 |
paramat |
there are some new engine oregen types that could probably be used instead for sulfur |
| 22:58 |
paramat |
where do the ores registered in mg.lua get generated? |
| 22:58 |
VanessaE |
in nore's mg mod probably :) |
| 22:58 |
paramat |
also, when i looked at darkage that also needed optimisation |
| 22:58 |
VanessaE |
(which is not in use on my servers) |
| 22:59 |
sofar |
hey, novel idea, let's make bronze out of iron and copper |
| 22:59 |
VanessaE |
sofar: blame pilzadam for that. |
| 22:59 |
VanessaE |
I said we should import tin and do it right. |
| 22:59 |
paramat |
ah mg mapgen ok |
| 23:00 |
VanessaE |
sofar: I would very much like to see moreores' tin imported into mt_game and the bronze recipe adjusted accordingly. |
| 23:00 |
paramat |
i would rather bronze had not been added to mtg, should have been a mod |
| 23:00 |
VanessaE |
it was. |
| 23:00 |
VanessaE |
moreores. |
| 23:01 |
VanessaE |
gold and copper were imported from there, and then that stupid recipe |
| 23:01 |
sofar |
VanessaE: either remove bronze entirely or add tin, yes |
| 23:02 |
VanessaE |
hm, wiki says bronze is 12 percent tin.. so 8 copper + 1 tin == 9 bronze. |
| 23:03 |
VanessaE |
if you wanted to be realistic (or say 2:1 if you wanted to keep it game-like) |
| 23:03 |
paramat |
i'll make an issue in technic about the data buffer optimisation, it's easy to do |
| 23:04 |
paramat |
adding tin just extends the mess |
| 23:04 |
VanessaE |
mess? |
| 23:05 |
VanessaE |
hm, bell bronze is 4:1, that's more reasonable for a game. |
| 23:05 |
paramat |
if we can remove bronze from mtg that would be good, but may be difficult |
| 23:06 |
paramat |
i mean, tin does not seem basic enough to be in mtg, and would only be added to sort out bronze which should not have been added |
| 23:07 |
VanessaE |
nah, it's fairly basic |
| 23:07 |
VanessaE |
I forget what all it's used for in the real world though |
| 23:07 |
VanessaE |
(aside from cans and foil :P ) |
| 23:07 |
epoch |
tin? |
| 23:07 |
VanessaE |
yeah. |
| 23:07 |
epoch |
solder. |
| 23:08 |
epoch |
cans are either iron or aluminum. |
| 23:08 |
epoch |
"o. |
| 23:08 |
VanessaE |
"tin can" is a phrase here. |
| 23:08 |
epoch |
"tin" foil is aluminum too. |
| 23:08 |
VanessaE |
like "tin foil" yeah |
| 23:08 |
epoch |
but then again wool is made out of cotton in minetest. |
| 23:09 |
VanessaE |
right, so it's not like it has to necessarily be realistic :P |
| 23:10 |
epoch |
i thought lead would be good to add. |
| 23:10 |
VanessaE |
technic has thatr. |
| 23:10 |
VanessaE |
-r |
| 23:10 |
epoch |
can be used for radiation resistant armor. |
| 23:10 |
VanessaE |
used for shielding, and eventually for batteries (if it isn't already) |
| 23:11 |
epoch |
heh. or uranium? :D |
| 23:11 |
VanessaE |
that too :) |
| 23:11 |
epoch |
radioactive minerals would need the lead armor to mine without dying and could be used to make really big explosions? |
| 23:11 |
epoch |
TNT 2.0 |
| 23:12 |
epoch |
and would degrade into lead eventually. |
| 23:14 |
sofar |
epoch was killed in the study with the tin chandelier |
| 23:15 |
sofar |
removing bronze and copper would make sense, but it'll be rough on existing singleplayer worlds |
| 23:15 |
sofar |
adding is a little less harsh |
| 23:15 |
VanessaE |
removing copper would be disastrous |
| 23:15 |
VanessaE |
technic relies on that metal heavily |
| 23:15 |
sofar |
yeah, I'm more of a fan of just adding tin |
| 23:16 |
VanessaE |
(I doubt Calinou would be likely to import those metals back into moreores) |
| 23:16 |
epoch |
do they have a recipe for crafting circuit boards out of sand? |
| 23:16 |
Fixer |
we have a hard time finding a use for bronze... |
| 23:16 |
sofar |
yes, there's a way to craft silicon |
| 23:16 |
VanessaE |
epoch: actually, silicon is derived from sand and copper, in mesecons, I think, which is then used to make ICs |
| 23:16 |
Fixer |
nevermind |
| 23:17 |
VanessaE |
sofar: if you're gonna add tin, bring silver and mithril with it, so that moreores can be deprecated entirely. |
| 23:17 |
VanessaE |
(they're not super-common, so it's not like rainbow caves would really be a problem) |
| 23:20 |
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| 23:23 |
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| 23:23 |
paramat |
silver and mithril no thanks, no good reason for those |
| 23:23 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: to default game? |
| 23:24 |
epoch |
silver is in solder too sometimes. |
| 23:24 |
paramat |
i certainly would not want to remove copper. adding tin ore is ok i guess |
| 23:24 |
VanessaE |
paramat: what good reason is there not to add them? |
| 23:24 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: add them were? |
| 23:24 |
paramat |
avoiding unecessary bloat |
| 23:24 |
VanessaE |
Fixer: to mt_game. |
| 23:24 |
VanessaE |
bloat? um, we're only talking about 1 or 2kB here topc |
| 23:24 |
VanessaE |
tops* |
| 23:25 |
twoelk |
don't put mithril into mtg. it might have similar issues like nyancats as it was made up by a fantasy author |
| 23:25 |
paramat |
a good reason is needed, 'so we can deprecate moreores' is not |
| 23:25 |
VanessaE |
twoelk: it was? |
| 23:25 |
VanessaE |
oh I see |
| 23:25 |
VanessaE |
(LOtR) |
| 23:25 |
paramat |
the amount of additional code is irrelevant |
| 23:25 |
Fixer |
i'm fine with current ores, i want coloured clay badly |
| 23:26 |
VanessaE |
Fixer: unified bricks mod. |
| 23:27 |
VanessaE |
paramat: my reasoning is simply that copper and gold came from moreores, and now tin is on the plate, so to speak. |
| 23:27 |
Fixer |
bronze is rarely used, i doubt tin and mithrill is that much needed |
| 23:27 |
VanessaE |
that's three out of five. |
| 23:27 |
Fixer |
but |
| 23:27 |
paramat |
no good reason not to add something is not a good reason to add something |
| 23:27 |
VanessaE |
wouldn't it make sense to bring all five over (and rename mithril I suppose)? |
| 23:27 |
Fixer |
if there will be some sort of automation in mtg... then it can be viable topic |
| 23:27 |
nore |
hmmm why don't we just heavily extend the metal industry? |
| 23:28 |
Fixer |
nore: to what? there is not automation or anything in mtg, just decor |
| 23:28 |
nore |
of course there needs to be a direction chosen for that |
| 23:28 |
VanessaE |
a long time ago, RBA and I had this idea of a "basic metal primitives" mod |
| 23:28 |
VanessaE |
maybe something that could go into minetest |
| 23:29 |
nore |
that would be, I guess, industrial or late-medieval/pre-industrial |
| 23:29 |
VanessaE |
it would supply sheets, rebar, ingots, lumps, strips, and one or two other items, one for each metal registered. |
| 23:29 |
paramat |
having 3 out of 5 ores from a mod is obviously no good reason to add the rest, we added the ones that had good reason to be added |
| 23:29 |
VanessaE |
spools of wire too |
| 23:30 |
Fixer |
is this some kind of trolling? |
| 23:30 |
VanessaE |
(the idea being to eliminate the need for metal strips and spools of wire in homedecor, as well as some stuff in technic, and steel mod, and whatever else we weren't thinking of) |
| 23:30 |
paramat |
each extra ore slows down mapgen and makes the mapgen code more complex to work with, so we need to keep mtg to basic essential ones |
| 23:31 |
nore |
paramat: does it slow it a lot? |
| 23:31 |
VanessaE |
paramat: wouldn't lots of ores slowing down the mapgen suggest that the mapgen is in need of a rewrite? |
| 23:31 |
epoch |
the mapgen code doesn't just loop over ore types? |
| 23:31 |
VanessaE |
and no, it doesn't. |
| 23:31 |
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| 23:31 |
VanessaE |
even dreambuilder's mapgen isn't very slow, and it does a hell of a lot more than just ores. |
| 23:31 |
paramat |
no not a lot, and no oregen does not need a rewrite, hmmmm coded it well |
| 23:32 |
nore |
also: would per-biome ores make mapgen heavier or lighter? |
| 23:32 |
twoelk |
tin can be used for pewter -> dishware |
| 23:32 |
VanessaE |
nore: per-biome ores...such as coal and iron in desert stone? |
| 23:32 |
nore |
VanessaE: I mean, ores that would spawn only in specific mapgen biomes |
| 23:32 |
VanessaE |
ah |
| 23:32 |
epoch |
is pewter tin and silver? |
| 23:32 |
nore |
you say the biomes they are allowed to spawn in the registration |
| 23:33 |
paramat |
i'm not arguing about a significant slowdown, just stating that a good reason is needed to add an ore |
| 23:33 |
VanessaE |
epoch: tin, antimony, copper, lead |
| 23:33 |
twoelk |
I would suggest to model ore usage on the bronze age |
| 23:33 |
sofar |
well so, there's no right or wrong here |
| 23:34 |
sofar |
as long as we improve |
| 23:34 |
VanessaE |
paramat: my best argument is that deprecating moreores means one less mod for users to go looking for when they want to get many of the existing mods to work. |
| 23:34 |
sofar |
small improvements are easier to cope with than large ones |
| 23:34 |
sofar |
so, a small increment would be to add tin and fix the bronze recipe |
| 23:34 |
sofar |
you can't get much smaller than that |
| 23:34 |
VanessaE |
+1 |
| 23:34 |
sofar |
another small change would be to remove the bronze recipe |
| 23:35 |
sofar |
but that would remove bronze blocks from being obtainable |
| 23:35 |
VanessaE |
which would mean removing some tools also |
| 23:35 |
VanessaE |
(not that I'm against that) |
| 23:35 |
sofar |
right |
| 23:35 |
sofar |
plus it would require us to add aliases to remove them |
| 23:35 |
sofar |
which is bad |
| 23:35 |
nore |
it's easier to add something that to remove them |
| 23:36 |
epoch |
or just save the removal until the planned 'break everything, but only once' update. |
| 23:36 |
* twoelk |
lives in a place with old copper roofs, wich appear green though |
| 23:36 |
VanessaE |
basically, I'm an "inclusionist". to me, one should need little reason to add something, and a pretty good reason to exclude something, and an even bigger reason to delete something. |
| 23:37 |
paramat |
i'm ok with adding tin, removing bronze now would be a nightmare |
| 23:37 |
paramat |
VE that's why dreambuilder is a monster :] |
| 23:37 |
VanessaE |
heh no |
| 23:38 |
VanessaE |
dreambuilder has a different philosophy from mt_game :) |
| 23:38 |
VanessaE |
part of it's point is to ADD ALL THE MODS! and if there are problems, sort them out :) |
| 23:38 |
VanessaE |
its* |
| 23:38 |
paramat |
little reason to add something leads to a bloated monster, mtg would become a nightmare |
| 23:39 |
epoch |
heh. >dream<builder being a nightmare. |
| 23:39 |
paramat |
ok i accept dreambuilder is something different, sorry |
| 23:39 |
VanessaE |
"little reason" could be as little as "this seems nice, and it's not a problem to have it" |
| 23:39 |
VanessaE |
in other words, who would care, honestly, if mt_game had a thousand nodes, if it still ran well? |
| 23:40 |
paramat |
we would, you're not a dev |
| 23:40 |
VanessaE |
even "if it still ran well"? |
| 23:40 |
paramat |
and it would load slower |
| 23:40 |
Fixer |
sofar: rename bronze to glucydur :trollface: |
| 23:40 |
paramat |
yes even if it ran well |
| 23:40 |
epoch |
anything added is something more to maintain. |
| 23:40 |
* VanessaE |
shrugs |
| 23:41 |
Fixer |
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?668475-Necro-Is-an-Iron-Copper-alloy-possible-(and-useful-) |
| 23:42 |
Fixer |
about minetest load times, what you need is a benchmark |
| 23:42 |
paramat |
it would be fine if there is a good reason for a thousand nodes, but there isn't (yet) |
| 23:43 |
VanessaE |
paramat: the whole point is that if something runs well, despite being "bloated", and wouldn't really run any better without the "bloat", then the "bloat" is not a problem. |
| 23:43 |
VanessaE |
and if adding stuff means less maintainable code, that's not the fault of the stuff, that's the fault of the coder. |
| 23:44 |
Fixer |
paramat: iirc you can add like 100 more nodes and you will hardly notice any difference in load times |
| 23:44 |
twoelk |
one reason against is the need to memorize a plethora of recepies |
| 23:44 |
Fixer |
at least when I did that test with wool in moreblocks |
| 23:44 |
VanessaE |
one of the devs here, probably pilz, benchmarked it once |
| 23:44 |
VanessaE |
32000 nodes took only a few seconds to render |
| 23:44 |
VanessaE |
something like that |
| 23:44 |
VanessaE |
the problem isn't the number of nodes, it's the amount of media that has to be used with them, |
| 23:45 |
VanessaE |
(which is why my mods try to rely on small textures and references to existing stuff) |
| 23:45 |
epoch |
grayscale + tint could replace some item pictures and block textures. |
| 23:45 |
twoelk |
simplify textures then and reduce the amount of tiny files ;-P |
| 23:45 |
VanessaE |
twoelk: to be fair, aren't there already enough recipes in mt_game to need a basic crafting guide as it is? |
| 23:46 |
epoch |
I use the minetest wiki as a crafting guide when playing mtg. |
| 23:46 |
twoelk |
VanessaE: indeed |
| 23:47 |
twoelk |
not a bad thing in itself though |
| 23:48 |
VanessaE |
so I'm not saying bloat mt_game out with thousands of nodes. |
| 23:48 |
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| 23:48 |
VanessaE |
I'm saying that a few nodes here and there aren't going to negatively affect user experience, and at the same time, doing so means less dependencies for third-party mods. |
| 23:49 |
VanessaE |
if done right, there is no down-side. |
| 23:52 |
paramat |
adding content always makes maintenance harder |
| 23:52 |
VanessaE |
if it does, you're doing it wrong. |
| 23:53 |
Fixer |
bronze tools were always alien too me, I don't know what to expect from them /need to look in code/ |
| 23:53 |
VanessaE |
fixer, I think the logic was that they're slightly better than steel tools or something |
| 23:53 |
paramat |
you're arguing that a good reason is not needed for adding lots of extra content. an absence of a huge problem is no good reason to add lots of unnecessary stuff |
| 23:53 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: and thats the problem |
| 23:53 |
Fixer |
VanessaE: it is very costly |
| 23:54 |
VanessaE |
paramat: no, I am arguing that one shouldn't need a lot of reason to add a little content. |
| 23:54 |
paramat |
100 nodes is ok if there's good reason for them |
| 23:54 |
twoelk |
bronze tools belong to human culture. Mese is for the alien element :-D |
| 23:54 |
paramat |
32000 nodes makes a game load very slowly |
| 23:54 |
VanessaE |
paramat: pilzadam disproved that. |
| 23:55 |
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| 23:55 |
twoelk |
the mtg recipe was one of the first things I needed to get used to in minetest and which I found annoyingly wrong |
| 23:55 |
paramat |
i agree a few nodes is fine, but, there has to be a reason for them, we can't be too carefree about throwing everything in |
| 23:56 |
VanessaE |
but again, no one's suggesting to add thousands or even dozens of nodes, just three instead of one. |
| 23:56 |
twoelk |
argh mtg bronze recepe |
| 23:56 |
twoelk |
uhm |
| 23:56 |
VanessaE |
(well, I guess it would be six counting blocks, but you get my point) |
| 23:56 |
* twoelk |
should go to bed |
| 23:56 |
paramat |
i mean amount of media |
| 23:57 |
Fixer |
I propose to make a bronze tools valuable... in different way, not faster than steel (or even slower), but much more durable (like 2x durable than steel) |
| 23:57 |
twoelk |
eek |
| 23:57 |
Fixer |
omg |
| 23:58 |
Fixer |
i think i've catched fps drop bug again, now with antijitter disabled |
| 23:58 |
twoelk |
it's iron-bronze-steel in real life |
| 23:58 |
paramat |
adding stuff always makes code less maintainable, that has nothing to do with bad coding |
| 23:58 |
twoelk |
where steel could be iron with a pinch of coal |
| 23:59 |
Fixer |
we have a bug :( |
| 23:59 |
Fixer |
i'm really sure now |
| 23:59 |
twoelk |
to be honest code should not be the argument here but gameplay |
| 23:59 |
paramat |
even if bloat is not a problem, it still needs a fairly good reason to be added |
| 23:59 |
Fixer |
it is not minimap related, not antijitter related |
