| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
red-001 |
I don't think meshs are need for trapdoors? |
| 00:01 |
sofar |
nope, they work fine as is |
| 00:01 |
sofar |
the door mesh is nothing more than a glorious nodebox anyway |
| 00:01 |
sofar |
it needs to be a mesh only because nodeboxes can't texture larger than 1x1x1 |
| 00:02 |
sofar |
pushed a fix for the bad light inside the upper door node |
| 00:02 |
sofar |
it's better now |
| 00:03 |
red-001 |
why was check_player_priv renamed? |
| 00:03 |
sofar |
because I intend to use it for other ways to access the node as well |
| 00:03 |
sofar |
so the name can be more generic |
| 00:04 |
sofar |
most of the code was actually entirely rewritten |
| 00:04 |
sofar |
I started out from blank |
| 00:04 |
red-001 |
so made can_access |
| 00:04 |
sofar |
I wanted to make sure I wasn't copying old code that needed cleaning up |
| 00:05 |
sofar |
yeah, it's just a name anyway |
| 00:05 |
sofar |
the "access" priv needs to go into this as well |
| 00:05 |
red-001 |
yes |
| 00:05 |
sofar |
since that's about to get merged into minetest_game |
| 00:05 |
sofar |
plus I need to somehow mod in my keys mod as well |
| 00:05 |
sofar |
s/mod/patch |
| 00:06 |
* red-001 |
needs to start up github for windows |
| 00:06 |
sofar |
are steel doors not diggable by hand? I thought they were... |
| 00:07 |
red-001 |
shouldn't can_dig be local to the file so the code is not duplicated? |
| 00:07 |
sofar |
it is local |
| 00:07 |
sofar |
ah you mean, defined only once? |
| 00:07 |
red-001 |
yes |
| 00:08 |
sofar |
then you'd have to lookup nodedef each caller |
| 00:08 |
sofar |
not that that's so bad |
| 00:08 |
sofar |
yes, I had it that way first |
| 00:08 |
sofar |
there's not enough doors in the game to make a big difference |
| 00:17 |
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| 00:32 |
* red-001 |
needs sleep |
| 00:45 |
paramat |
bunch of minor mapgen fixes i will merge soon https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3556 |
| 00:47 |
paramat |
all trivial |
| 00:48 |
sofar |
yeah, pretty much |
| 01:29 |
paramat |
thanks for looking, now merging |
| 01:39 |
paramat |
merged |
| 01:42 |
paramat |
next i would like to improve (non-mgv6) caves by using a method used in c++ valleys mapgen: placing biome material on the cave floor in cave entrances, no longer bare and ugly and more a part of the world surface |
| 01:43 |
sofar |
paramat: any time to look at the aspen/apple noise params? |
| 01:45 |
paramat |
i need to consider those, should appletree and aspen be equal in distribution or should aspen be fewer in number? |
| 01:45 |
sofar |
as I made it, aspen are a smaller percentage |
| 01:45 |
sofar |
the median is slightly below the middle |
| 01:46 |
sofar |
I found reasonable spreads whereever I looked, I'd say it's 25-75 or 33-66 or so |
| 01:46 |
paramat |
i'm thinking some areas pure appletree, many areas mixed, should there be pure aspen areas though? |
| 01:47 |
sofar |
at the far end of the probability, there will be almost 95% aspen |
| 01:47 |
sofar |
so that's pretty much an aspen forest exclusively |
| 01:47 |
sofar |
it'll be rare |
| 01:48 |
sofar |
paramat: I've noticed that there's a huge grassland biome without any trees |
| 01:48 |
sofar |
don't know which one it is |
| 01:49 |
sofar |
but I was wondering if we could introduce random, small clusters of aspen in those |
| 01:49 |
sofar |
very sparsely planted |
| 01:49 |
sofar |
anyway that's a different patch |
| 01:50 |
paramat |
ok now looking at noises |
| 01:51 |
sofar |
toddler dinner time |
| 02:14 |
paramat |
ok made the world all-deciduous forest. i feel appletrees should dominate and many areas should be appletree-only, then other areas a varying mix. 66% 33% by number seems good. will tune noise params |
| 02:47 |
paramat |
ok added my suggestion to the thread. world is feeling richer due to the logs and mix of trees |
| 02:52 |
paramat |
now it's my feeding time bbl |
| 02:52 |
kaadmy |
imo apple trees should be very spare, and be rare. if hunger's ever added, you can just collect several stacks of apples |
| 02:52 |
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| 03:16 |
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| 03:32 |
sofar |
kaadmy: "apple trees" are just the oak trees name |
| 03:37 |
kaadmy |
ah |
| 03:45 |
sofar |
uhhh |
| 03:45 |
sofar |
how come seed doesn't change if I delete map* in a world folder? |
| 03:45 |
sofar |
o_O |
| 03:46 |
kaadmy |
there's a cfg file, world.txt iirc that has the seed |
| 03:47 |
sofar |
map_meta.txt has it |
| 03:47 |
sofar |
and I deleted it |
| 03:47 |
sofar |
but every time I started that world again, it kept the same seed |
| 03:58 |
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| 04:34 |
sofar |
paramat: would you mind if I clean up 'saveschems' and fork it to minetest-mods? |
| 04:34 |
sofar |
paramat: it's way too useful, we should really try and take care of it together |
| 04:35 |
paramat |
ok go for it |
| 04:37 |
sofar |
I will try and convert the existing schems to the format I used for aspen, since it's so darn easy to make trees that way |
| 04:37 |
sofar |
hopefully it'll help others |
| 04:38 |
paramat |
i have a local copy that gets changed a lot, the version at my github is probably a little behind |
| 04:38 |
paramat |
ok |
| 04:41 |
sofar |
ok, let me do some cleanups on it first. |
| 04:41 |
sofar |
you know what, lowering the trunk x2 actually looks pretty decent |
| 04:41 |
sofar |
so, I'll just do that |
| 05:13 |
paramat |
ok |
| 06:07 |
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| 06:31 |
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| 07:02 |
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| 08:17 |
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| 11:59 |
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| 12:28 |
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| 12:38 |
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| 12:46 |
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| 13:37 |
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| 13:45 |
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| 13:51 |
RealBadAngel |
http://i.imgur.com/fpSRahc.png |
| 13:51 |
RealBadAngel |
live meshes in formspecs |
| 13:52 |
RealBadAngel |
lotsa of inventory images code to be trashed soon |
| 13:53 |
est31 |
I guess its connected with an fps drop |
| 13:53 |
est31 |
but I'm too tired to discuss with you |
| 13:53 |
RealBadAngel |
rather no drops |
| 13:54 |
est31 |
(btw I havent tested whether paramat's bugreport is true whether there is a real fps drop from your commit) |
| 13:54 |
est31 |
but drawing fixed images is far more easier than drawing meshes |
| 13:54 |
est31 |
at least I assume |
| 13:54 |
RealBadAngel |
main goal of this one is to get rid og preload item visuals |
| 13:55 |
RealBadAngel |
so theyre not needed anymore, huge save on ram |
| 13:55 |
est31 |
thats probably true |
| 13:56 |
est31 |
but paramat will be against it I guess simply because it comes from you |
| 13:56 |
RealBadAngel |
idc |
| 13:56 |
est31 |
he'd want you to not do meshes but instead place single faces of them |
| 13:56 |
RealBadAngel |
he may be conservative and keep to mt spirit |
| 13:56 |
RealBadAngel |
i wont |
| 13:56 |
est31 |
because its "minetest style" |
| 13:57 |
RealBadAngel |
im coding modern game |
| 13:57 |
RealBadAngel |
not the 80's |
| 13:57 |
nrzkt |
RealBadAngel, i prefer having a formspec thing to have mesh viewer rotating the mesh :D |
| 13:57 |
est31 |
even in the 80's it was totally ugly to place single face |
| 13:57 |
RealBadAngel |
nrzkt, look closer |
| 13:57 |
nrzkt |
and let users use this new formspec thing to do more things |
| 13:57 |
RealBadAngel |
the meshes are rotating |
| 13:57 |
est31 |
<RealBadAngel> the meshes are rotating |
| 13:58 |
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| 13:58 |
est31 |
paramat will -1 it, and c55 will close it |
| 13:58 |
RealBadAngel |
atm i let selected or hoovered ones to rotate |
| 13:58 |
est31 |
just because they are rotating |
| 13:58 |
RealBadAngel |
lol |
| 13:58 |
RealBadAngel |
no problemo |
| 13:58 |
RealBadAngel |
that will land in minetest HD then |
| 14:00 |
RealBadAngel |
to make things clear, i dont completely care bout paramat's or c55's opionions |
| 14:00 |
est31 |
probably its really the best idea if you forked it |
| 14:00 |
RealBadAngel |
and i will code things only based on my vision and taste |
| 14:00 |
RealBadAngel |
i dont wanna fight |
| 14:01 |
RealBadAngel |
theyre having different one, so its ok |
| 14:01 |
est31 |
minetest is open source, forking is part of open source life |
| 14:01 |
est31 |
closed source games cant fork they have only one version |
| 14:01 |
est31 |
minetest can have hundreds of versions and tastes |
| 14:01 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc |
| 14:02 |
RealBadAngel |
but in the long run mainstream will suffer |
| 14:02 |
RealBadAngel |
but thats not my problem |
| 14:02 |
est31 |
probably yeah |
| 14:02 |
est31 |
minetest should be split up imo |
| 14:02 |
est31 |
one lib for the network |
| 14:03 |
est31 |
one for the graphicd |
| 14:03 |
est31 |
graphics* |
| 14:03 |
est31 |
etc |
| 14:03 |
est31 |
then forks can keep common parts |
| 14:03 |
est31 |
and improvements of e.g. network can be shared between all |
| 14:07 |
est31 |
and the deserialisation and database code can be used by minetest mapper scripts |
| 14:10 |
RealBadAngel |
est31, that may be propably good idea |
| 14:10 |
RealBadAngel |
but im talking about replacing old, faulty and dead slow code |
| 14:10 |
RealBadAngel |
and replacing it with native meshes |
| 14:11 |
est31 |
you want to render them in real time |
| 14:11 |
RealBadAngel |
i do |
| 14:12 |
RealBadAngel |
100 nodes rendered on one frame more? |
| 14:12 |
RealBadAngel |
is that a big problem? |
| 14:13 |
RealBadAngel |
drawtime thingy doesnt move with that |
| 14:26 |
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| 14:29 |
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| 14:31 |
RealBadAngel |
nrzkt, can you edit your comments on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3547 ? |
| 14:32 |
RealBadAngel |
defining functions virutal for that class is not a subject of this PR |
| 14:32 |
RealBadAngel |
you made look this PR buggy while its not |
| 14:34 |
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| 14:36 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, dead code to delete: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/content_cao.cpp#L136 |
| 14:36 |
|
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| 14:37 |
RealBadAngel |
and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/content_cao.cpp#L280 |
| 14:37 |
RealBadAngel |
both those CAO's are not used |
| 14:38 |
RealBadAngel |
(items are genericCAO) |
| 14:45 |
nrzkt |
RealBadAngel, done |
| 14:47 |
RealBadAngel |
k |
| 15:05 |
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| 18:06 |
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| 18:09 |
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| 18:13 |
paramat |
hmmmm celeron55 and all, any comments on the suggested fix for this important issue? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3530 '21-25% FPS drop with shaders disabled due to vertex tangents commit' ie split the renderer |
| 18:15 |
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| 18:16 |
* Fixer |
hears echo |
| 18:17 |
RealBadAngel |
paramat, i said i can do that when needed, what for you need c55 at all? |
| 18:17 |
RealBadAngel |
have you excavated another box without shaders support? |
| 18:18 |
paramat |
since it's important issue i'm asking for other expert opinions |
| 18:19 |
RealBadAngel |
no need to repeat that opinion each time im on the channel |
| 18:21 |
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| 18:24 |
paramat |
there's no opinion, just a question. the suggested fix needs discussion |
| 18:31 |
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| 18:32 |
paramat |
i decided to discuss this before i saw you were on-channel |
| 18:32 |
RealBadAngel |
im reorginizing now that stuff, i can do that |
| 18:33 |
RealBadAngel |
mainly, i can split things into textures (non shaders.old way) and meshes, native irrlicht way |
| 18:35 |
RealBadAngel |
but frankly i am afraid old way will be slower |
| 18:35 |
RealBadAngel |
it is already |
| 18:36 |
RealBadAngel |
thx to that render-to-texture magic way |
| 18:36 |
RealBadAngel |
if something is native in engine, why to use magic tricks to show it? |
| 18:37 |
RealBadAngel |
if you cant, it means you just dont know how to use the engine :P |
| 18:38 |
paramat |
i see. the main issue though is fps with shaders off, i guess the slowness of formspecs won't eliminate the 25% gain in fps |
| 18:39 |
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| 18:39 |
RealBadAngel |
main goal of the meshes for items change is to free ram |
| 18:40 |
RealBadAngel |
now each item needs extra texture to be shown |
| 18:40 |
RealBadAngel |
more items, more ram needed |
| 18:41 |
paramat |
i see. do you need vertextangents for inventory meshes? |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
also, to get the texture, costly process was called |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
i do need that vectors for almost everything |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
its like you have asked me do i need sun |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
yes i do |
| 18:42 |
RealBadAngel |
do you need mapgen noise gens? or other stuff? |
| 18:44 |
RealBadAngel |
such things are basic for everything with textures |
| 18:45 |
RealBadAngel |
nothing is possible without it |
| 18:46 |
RealBadAngel |
i had to cheat to get absudly costly tanget space before |
| 18:46 |
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| 18:46 |
RealBadAngel |
i mean calculated out of 2 vertices only, in shaders |
| 18:46 |
paramat |
yes |
| 18:48 |
paramat |
before splitting the renderer lets get some other devs' input on the idea |
| 18:53 |
hmmmm |
oh no please don't split that |
| 18:54 |
hmmmm |
the better idea would be to find the root cause of the slowness instead of splitting things into slow and slow-but-not-quite-as-slow |
| 18:54 |
hmmmm |
the best idea would be to use a different god damn graphics engine though |
| 18:55 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, i saw you mentioned that some time ago but i afraid its not that easy |
| 18:55 |
RealBadAngel |
each and every triangle is using just more data |
| 18:56 |
RealBadAngel |
2 more vectors per each vertice |
| 18:56 |
RealBadAngel |
thats why it is slower |
| 18:56 |
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| 18:57 |
RealBadAngel |
its all about numbers |
| 18:57 |
paramat |
since you (RBA) seem to be starting a HD branch or fork, it might be simpler and less work for you and everyone just to revert vertextangents in master |
| 18:57 |
RealBadAngel |
more we "see" more data we got |
| 18:57 |
RealBadAngel |
paramat, you may want to trash all my commits, youre free to do so |
| 18:57 |
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| 18:58 |
RealBadAngel |
just go on or shut up |
| 18:58 |
RealBadAngel |
other way youre playin flat world madman just |
| 18:59 |
RealBadAngel |
and frankly you shall start branch for museum workers all around globe :P |
| 19:00 |
sofar |
you guys remind me of "the red and the blue" claymation |
| 19:05 |
paramat |
heh. i'd prefer to keep vertextangents but also fix the non-shader slowness, if that's possible. reading the forum there are players who are, erm, very keen to see their fps return |
| 19:06 |
RealBadAngel |
as i said, i can do that but only by separating |
| 19:06 |
RealBadAngel |
fancy mind tricks using templates are out of discussion |
| 19:07 |
RealBadAngel |
if something is good for all cases it means is worth shit |
| 19:08 |
RealBadAngel |
simple, old, gold rule |
| 19:14 |
paramat |
okay. well, hmmmmm suggests a split renderer may not be the thing to do, and i somewhat trust his judgement |
| 19:14 |
RealBadAngel |
its not his code, he havent touched a sigle key coding it |
| 19:15 |
RealBadAngel |
his knowledge is next to google one |
| 19:15 |
RealBadAngel |
same as yours :P |
| 19:15 |
RealBadAngel |
but you know the best |
| 19:16 |
RealBadAngel |
what if i make a commit with separation and you will try it just? |
| 19:19 |
RealBadAngel |
meanwhile, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3547 |
| 19:20 |
paramat |
well, i'm asking for consideration of the method before you start a lot of work. i do tend to trust c55 and hmmmmm more than you even on graphics |
| 19:20 |
RealBadAngel |
paramat, c55 lately is using way more advanced methods in his farmesh branch |
| 19:20 |
RealBadAngel |
say hello to VBO code |
| 19:21 |
RealBadAngel |
and the same way say good bye to your low end boxes |
| 19:23 |
RealBadAngel |
frankly, demand to be compatible with something more than 10 yrs old in gaming is like demand to be compatible with dinosaurs |
| 19:23 |
RealBadAngel |
sorry, i dont like to fuck with them l;) |
| 19:24 |
RealBadAngel |
OpenGL 1.2 |
| 19:24 |
RealBadAngel |
Release date: March 16, 1998 |
| 19:25 |
paramat |
my box is an intel core i5 with intel haswell integrated graphics :) |
| 19:25 |
sofar |
what does android have nowadays? |
| 19:25 |
RealBadAngel |
wonder if all the fridges and washing machines support 1.2 already |
| 19:26 |
RealBadAngel |
some of the watches already do |
| 19:26 |
RealBadAngel |
saw minetest running on the watch already |
| 19:26 |
Fixer |
even my crappy laptop with Pentium-M 2GHz with Intel Integrated has OGL 2.2 iirc |
| 19:26 |
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| 19:26 |
Fixer |
and it already has red blocks issue |
| 19:30 |
RealBadAngel |
fixer, im am developing now separate shaders for both GLSL and ES |
| 19:30 |
RealBadAngel |
they have to be different |
| 19:30 |
sapier |
great :-) |
| 19:31 |
sapier |
so we might be able to use ogles2 soon? |
| 19:31 |
RealBadAngel |
no way to have same for both |
| 19:31 |
RealBadAngel |
yes |
| 19:31 |
RealBadAngel |
i am able to use shaders for postprocessing for GLSL and ES already |
| 19:31 |
sapier |
on the other hand as of speed there doesn't seem to be a difference, at least on my device |
| 19:31 |
RealBadAngel |
@paramat, its called SEPARATION |
| 19:42 |
paramat |
i'm just trying to discuss calmly and sort this out, it's tough work with your current attitude =P |
| 19:44 |
Calinou |
<sofar> what does android have nowadays? |
| 19:44 |
Calinou |
OpenGL ES 3.0, 3.1 |
| 19:44 |
Calinou |
(well… Irrlicht is stuck on ES 2.0 since forever) |
| 19:44 |
Calinou |
<+RealBadAngel> no way to have same for both |
| 19:44 |
Calinou |
we could switch to ES 3.0 for everything, it's plenty |
| 19:48 |
sapier |
Calinou: we use ogles1 and as I mentiones about 15 minutes ago I don't see any benefit on ogles2.0 atm do you know about any benefit 3.0/4.1 might have? |
| 19:49 |
sapier |
just a higher number ain't exactly a valuable benefit ;-) |
| 19:51 |
Calinou |
Irrlicht has support for OpenGL ES 2.0, it's even mentioned in the Minetest settings |
| 19:51 |
Calinou |
sapier, having shaders? |
| 19:51 |
Calinou |
OpenGL ES 1.0 is fixed-function, nobody should use it anymore. |
| 19:51 |
paramat |
input on this is needed, but my feeling is it's best RBA starts a branch or fork, and we revert vertextangents here |
| 19:51 |
Calinou |
OpenGL ES 2.0 is still very limited (source: reduz, the lead developer of Godot) |
| 19:51 |
Calinou |
OpenGL ES 3.0 is liberating compared to 2.0 |
| 19:52 |
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| 19:53 |
sapier |
Calinou: many ppl disable shaders on pc too ;-) |
| 19:54 |
Calinou |
you should work on OpenArena, probably |
| 19:54 |
paramat |
btw c++ valley's mapgen may be merged soon, last chance for reviews or objections https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3508 < hmmmm |
| 20:01 |
hmmmm |
I can't find any real objections |
| 20:01 |
hmmmm |
if you guys like it and it works well, then so be it |
| 20:02 |
hmmmm |
lots of copying from mapgen to mapgen though, I'll try to see if I can't generalize a couple of the most repetitive functions sometime |
| 20:03 |
paramat |
ok thanks |
| 20:03 |
hmmmm |
love how there's exactly 1,337 additions - wondering if duane intentionally did that |
| 20:18 |
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| 20:18 |
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| 20:22 |
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| 21:01 |
RealBadAngel |
hmm, showin native meshes instead of textures is circa 500 lines code less |
| 21:02 |
RealBadAngel |
is that enough for you to like it? |
| 21:02 |
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| 21:03 |
RealBadAngel |
you have always pointed me to accomplish the task with minimal code needed |
| 21:08 |
RealBadAngel |
anyway im pretty close to paramats demand |
| 22:10 |
celeron55 |
what |
| 22:24 |
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| 22:31 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, im talkin about implementing advanced stuff, like VBO for example |
| 22:31 |
RealBadAngel |
youre smuggling it in without any comments |
| 22:32 |
RealBadAngel |
do you expect me to collect all the "non mt spirit" comments for ya? |
| 22:33 |
celeron55 |
what the hell now again |
| 22:33 |
RealBadAngel |
not any hell, please calm down |
| 22:33 |
celeron55 |
i am not doing anything whatsoever at the moment |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
and that branch will not be merged without further reviews and tests |
| 22:34 |
RealBadAngel |
i am trying now to replace textures with meshes |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
sounds dumb |
| 22:34 |
RealBadAngel |
you know meshes are native |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
textures aren't native? |
| 22:35 |
RealBadAngel |
making scene to get a texture is wise? |
| 22:35 |
RealBadAngel |
when you can just display it? |
| 22:36 |
celeron55 |
well i don't really care about that |
| 22:36 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc you dont |
| 22:36 |
RealBadAngel |
thats why its fucked up |
| 22:36 |
celeron55 |
make good code and don't create regressions for older hardware or something and i guess it's fine |
| 22:37 |
RealBadAngel |
im polishing the code now, need a few days |
| 22:37 |
sofar |
I think code speaks |
| 22:37 |
RealBadAngel |
scales are weird for any case |
| 22:37 |
RealBadAngel |
thats my problem |
| 22:38 |
RealBadAngel |
i just raised the idea becuase i know it wil work |
| 22:38 |
RealBadAngel |
and i love the selected item to spin :) |
| 22:41 |
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| 22:57 |
RealBadAngel |
sofar, howgh |
| 22:57 |
sofar |
howgh to you too |
| 22:57 |
RealBadAngel |
but ive seen that too many times |
| 22:58 |
RealBadAngel |
mt is F16 flying bombmers codebase |
| 22:59 |
RealBadAngel |
i mean "dont touch" |
| 22:59 |
sofar |
fuck, the f16 is one of the best fighter jets in the air still |
| 22:59 |
RealBadAngel |
ask hmmmm |
| 23:00 |
sofar |
they've been trying how long to make a cheap, better replacement for it? and failed how many times? :) |
| 23:00 |
RealBadAngel |
dont ruin my joke |
| 23:00 |
sofar |
you may need to adjust metaphors ;) |
| 23:00 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmm is involved here :P |
| 23:00 |
sofar |
point taken, though |
| 23:01 |
RealBadAngel |
anyway, we need to advance |
| 23:02 |
RealBadAngel |
endless fiddling with bugs is a no waY |
| 23:02 |
RealBadAngel |
i do really love your code on the custom drawtypes |
| 23:03 |
sofar |
the fences? |
| 23:03 |
RealBadAngel |
faster and saves shitload of ram |
| 23:03 |
RealBadAngel |
connected nodeboxes |
| 23:03 |
sofar |
I'm going to try and finish that one up this week |
| 23:04 |
sofar |
I had it on a backburner for a bit thinking about other stuff |
| 23:04 |
RealBadAngel |
but one con |
| 23:04 |
sofar |
but I think I can finish it |
| 23:04 |
RealBadAngel |
youre good to go with pipes, tubes etc |
| 23:05 |
RealBadAngel |
you will fail with mesecons climbing walls |
| 23:05 |
sofar |
yeah, mesecons is semi-special since it attempts to mimic minetest redstone |
| 23:05 |
RealBadAngel |
thats why i told u to contact nore |
| 23:05 |
RealBadAngel |
he made that math |
| 23:05 |
sofar |
and redstone can connect to 9 other nodes, not 6 or 5 |
| 23:05 |
sofar |
frankly, I don't think I want to fix it |
| 23:06 |
sofar |
I'd be happy if it connects 6-ways |
| 23:06 |
RealBadAngel |
if you wont i will do that |
| 23:06 |
RealBadAngel |
thats crucial imho |
| 23:07 |
sofar |
there's no 3d model you can make that can cross an infinitely small line with a density larger than 0 |
| 23:07 |
RealBadAngel |
since a few weeks im takin all the steps ive promised earlier |
| 23:07 |
RealBadAngel |
one by one |
| 23:07 |
sofar |
anyway, premature |
| 23:07 |
sofar |
maybe we will figure out a way |
| 23:08 |
RealBadAngel |
just ask nore |
| 23:08 |
sofar |
but first i have to implement the matching API |
| 23:08 |
sofar |
way more important |
| 23:08 |
RealBadAngel |
its a real fucked up math |
| 23:08 |
RealBadAngel |
see open source redstone |
| 23:09 |
RealBadAngel |
creator of it, female, said she went drunk one day |
| 23:09 |
RealBadAngel |
next day she woke up she have workin ones |
| 23:10 |
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| 23:11 |
sofar |
wait, who? |
| 23:13 |
RealBadAngel |
eloraam |
| 23:14 |
sofar |
sorry, I don't know the old coders of lore ;) |
| 23:15 |
RealBadAngel |
eloraam is creator of RedPower |
| 23:15 |
RealBadAngel |
she left the scene in sake of creating own game |
| 23:16 |
RealBadAngel |
some folks recreated the mod called RedPower |
| 23:17 |
RealBadAngel |
and it is open source |
| 23:18 |
RealBadAngel |
i am coder, 40+, i miss ability to create complex logic machines in mt |
| 23:18 |
RealBadAngel |
in mt ive build a tree farm, it took me a few months to build |
| 23:19 |
RealBadAngel |
shitload of wires and gates |
| 23:19 |
RealBadAngel |
mt is not capable of running such shit at all |
| 23:20 |
RealBadAngel |
in mt it is possible to build emulations of 8 bit CPUs even |
| 23:20 |
RealBadAngel |
thats what makes MT epic |
| 23:21 |
RealBadAngel |
EPIC even |
| 23:21 |
sofar |
I had not suspected you to be an old fart like me... ;) |
| 23:21 |
RealBadAngel |
i am |
| 23:22 |
RealBadAngel |
i was coding candies before most of contributors to mt was even born |
| 23:22 |
RealBadAngel |
so i have right to shout |
| 23:23 |
sofar |
I prefer to use less words and confuse the less wise with well-placed cryptic messages |
| 23:24 |
Megaf |
funny, you all still adding more and more stuff to Minestest, I forked Minetest and all my work so far was removing all that stuff |
| 23:24 |
RealBadAngel |
youre pretty new to this place |
| 23:25 |
Megaf |
my fork + my subgame = 9.5M |
| 23:25 |
sofar |
I wasted a year or two on Bukkit |
| 23:25 |
Megaf |
compiled |
| 23:25 |
RealBadAngel |
you will sooner or later get to the point i am |
| 23:25 |
RealBadAngel |
total frustration |
| 23:25 |
RealBadAngel |
i am devoted to mt |
| 23:26 |
Megaf |
What I have removed so far, stupid useless bitmap fonts, mapgen flat, v5, v7 and soem other |
| 23:26 |
RealBadAngel |
4 yrs already |
| 23:26 |
RealBadAngel |
youre new |
| 23:26 |
RealBadAngel |
so pick |
| 23:26 |
Megaf |
I have removed support for Redis, LevelBD and Dummy |
| 23:26 |
Megaf |
there is really lots of redundant stuff in Minetest |
| 23:27 |
Megaf |
and, RealBadAngel, shaders is disabled on my fork, and so is minimap |
| 23:27 |
sofar |
I love the minimap |
| 23:27 |
Megaf |
and I'm having a hard time to find all related files/line to that stuff to properly remove it |
| 23:27 |
sofar |
I could love bumpmapping but it's so darn hard to make textures work well, and I don't like the default textures much |
| 23:27 |
Megaf |
All that I mean is. stop adding features to minetest |
| 23:28 |
Megaf |
and begin removing old/redundant code |
| 23:28 |
sofar |
nothing wrong with a stripped down fork imho |
| 23:28 |
Megaf |
fixing the BLOODY MEMORY LEAKS |
| 23:28 |
sofar |
well those fixes should go upstream |
| 23:28 |
Megaf |
you can't even fix old bugs and are adding 3D support for fecks sake |
| 23:29 |
Megaf |
maybe make a good branch for Minetest Stable and a branch called Minetest Experimental where all that stuff can be tested |
| 23:29 |
sofar |
that's already been proposed and accepted |
| 23:29 |
sofar |
so in reality you can start pushing your cleanups and leak fixes to master |
| 23:30 |
sofar |
I suppose RealBadAngel actually should create the branch for his work already |
| 23:30 |
Megaf |
sofar, I will not |
| 23:30 |
Megaf |
zeno has done some clean up, and so sapier did, but they seem like lone players, with not much support from other devs |
| 23:31 |
sofar |
I suppose they need your help? |
| 23:31 |
Megaf |
$ du -hs minetest/fonts/ |
| 23:31 |
Megaf |
15Mminetest/fonts/ |
| 23:31 |
Megaf |
15 MB in bloody ttf fonts |
| 23:31 |
sofar |
why stand at the sidelines screaming foul if you are wearing the team outfit? |
| 23:31 |
Megaf |
I'm just asking that people do basic and easy stuff |
| 23:31 |
Megaf |
step by step |
| 23:31 |
sofar |
it's OSS, don't ask. You can do. |
| 23:31 |
Megaf |
and stop trying to bloat up Minetest with these features |
| 23:32 |
Megaf |
sofar, I can not help, I can't even code, yet I managed to do this cleanup |
| 23:32 |
Megaf |
s/can/can't |
| 23:32 |
Megaf |
ops |
| 23:32 |
Megaf |
can not is correct :) |
| 23:32 |
sofar |
you obviously can |
| 23:32 |
sofar |
it really, doesn't, take, much |
| 23:33 |
Megaf |
sofar, I already tried to proposed changes, did submit pull requests |
| 23:33 |
Megaf |
but all the time minetest devs seems to know more, know whats better |
| 23:33 |
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| 23:33 |
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| 23:33 |
Megaf |
I've seen two devs that wanter to reduce code, optimize and hunt bugs, sapier and zeno |
| 23:33 |
Megaf |
and that's about it |
| 23:34 |
Megaf |
zeno more than sapier perhaps, sapier came up with the 3D support |
| 23:34 |
sofar |
I don't think anyone is against optimizing and reducing bugs |
| 23:34 |
Megaf |
it works great indeed, yes it does and I used it a lot. But for now, is just bloatware |
| 23:35 |
Megaf |
sofar, how many people you think will be in favour of removing mapgen flat, v5, v7 and the other that I don't recall the name? |
| 23:35 |
Megaf |
singlenode |
| 23:36 |
sofar |
ah, that's a very good point |
| 23:36 |
Megaf |
all mapgens can make flat terrain, that makes mapgen flat redundant, v6 was created only because v5 had a bug, but it had nice features so they decided to keep it |
| 23:36 |
sofar |
I can see v5 getting removed |
| 23:36 |
Megaf |
v7 was created because v6 had a bug, it couldn't make mountains |
| 23:36 |
Megaf |
sofar, is bloat on top of bloat |
| 23:36 |
sofar |
totally agreed |
| 23:37 |
Megaf |
now, think about of hours of work put into making each magen |
| 23:37 |
rubenwardy |
singlenode has a use. v5/v6/v7 has purposes, however it should be easer to remove them for a build |
| 23:37 |
rubenwardy |
the dummy backend is used by CTF and is very fast |
| 23:37 |
sofar |
more #ifdefery ? |
| 23:38 |
Megaf |
now, about databases, sqlite is fantastic, and it needs very few adjustments to make it faster and use less space for the db, like enabling vacuum |
| 23:38 |
rubenwardy |
and useful for testing mods |
| 23:38 |
rubenwardy |
database backends are more of a server thing, and shouldn't be included in the client by diffault (other than a good all round one) |
| 23:38 |
Megaf |
rubenwardy, on my tests dummy wasnt any faster than sqlite properly set up |
| 23:39 |
sofar |
I thought only sqlite is enabled for the client by default? |
| 23:39 |
Megaf |
in real life tests I eman |
| 23:39 |
Megaf |
mean*, actually playing on a server using dummy |
| 23:39 |
rubenwardy |
~web title https://github.com/rubenwardy/capturetheflag/pull/36 |
| 23:39 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Recommend the Dummy backend by asl97 · Pull Request #36 · rubenwardy/capturetheflag · GitHub |
| 23:39 |
Megaf |
and that's other thing I question, do devs actually play Minetest? |
| 23:40 |
rubenwardy |
sqlite3 (syncronous & ramdisk) 1.105558 dummy 0.012 |
| 23:40 |
rubenwardy |
actually, that's only for deleted |
| 23:40 |
rubenwardy |
o |
| 23:40 |
rubenwardy |
acta |
| 23:40 |
sofar |
I'm no dev, but yes, I actually play |
| 23:40 |
rubenwardy |
actually, it's only faster at deleting, not at editing |
| 23:41 |
rubenwardy |
Most of this could be solved by adding C++ mod support - core mapgens could be compiled modules |
| 23:42 |
Megaf |
I'm developing my own fork now, I have been running MT servers for about 4 years and playing as long |
| 23:42 |
rubenwardy |
less bloat is good, I guess. |
| 23:42 |
Megaf |
other thing, Lua is great indeed, but Python *might* be better |
| 23:43 |
rubenwardy |
heh |
| 23:43 |
Megaf |
and now, contradicting myself, why not add support for modding done in Python too? Keep the lua thing, and python, Irrlicht already supports it AFAIK |
| 23:44 |
rubenwardy |
"Irrlicht already supports it" |
| 23:44 |
rubenwardy |
what? |
| 23:44 |
rubenwardy |
Yes, there may be wrappers allowing you to add scene nodes etc |
| 23:44 |
rubenwardy |
But that would only be applicable to client side modding, not to Minetest's server mods |
| 23:45 |
Megaf |
ok, unofficial biding for Python https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrlicht_Engine |
| 23:45 |
rubenwardy |
Where is your fork, Megaf? megaf/minetest? |
| 23:45 |
Megaf |
rubenwardy, nope, is not even on Megaf account |
| 23:45 |
Megaf |
I don't want to make it public just yet |
| 23:46 |
rubenwardy |
I think that the minimap is useful for gameplay if they made it better. Ie, the ability to require the crafting of an item to use. |
| 23:46 |
Megaf |
and at the moment it is very dirty, the dbs/magen removal was very dirty (since I can't code) |
| 23:46 |
Megaf |
rubenwardy, I like the minimap, a lot actually, I just think is not the time to have it |
| 23:46 |
Megaf |
it could have been done via a mod perhaps |
| 23:46 |
rubenwardy |
slow |
| 23:46 |
Megaf |
not adding compiling time and memory use |
| 23:47 |
Megaf |
so add features, yes, but make room for it first |
| 23:47 |
Megaf |
or something line that |
| 23:47 |
sofar |
client-side modding has been desired for a long time |
| 23:48 |
sofar |
it could certainly render a minimap if done correctly |
| 23:50 |
Megaf |
sofar, bottomline is, I'm kinda frustrated with Minetest and I don't see my suggestions getting accepted by Minetest dev team anytime soon, so I'm forking it, selling it, making money from it, and donating part of the money back to Minetest |
| 23:50 |
Megaf |
so far* |
| 23:51 |
sofar |
so assuming you're properly adhering to the licenses, I'd say you've found a perfectly valid way of contributing to the project in your own way |
| 23:52 |
Megaf |
I'm not sure about the licenses, but I am giving all the credit to Minetest and c55 |
| 23:53 |
Megaf |
I didn't create the thing, just made it smaller and faster |
| 23:53 |
rubenwardy |
You also have to share the full source code of the engine to anyone that buys/has a executable version of your fork |
| 23:53 |
sofar |
let me buy a copy from you :) |
| 23:54 |
Megaf |
rubenwardy, the source code is already available and will always be |
| 23:54 |
Megaf |
as long as Minetest is Open Source |
| 23:54 |
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| 23:55 |
rubenwardy |
your version needs to be too |
| 23:55 |
Megaf |
I'm charging only for my work hours and the compilation |
| 23:55 |
Megaf |
rubenwardy, that's what I mean, my version will be Open Source and has it's code available as long as Minetest is too |
| 23:55 |
Megaf |
and Irrlicht, and OpenGL |
| 23:56 |
rubenwardy |
? |
| 23:56 |
sofar |
well no |
| 23:56 |
rubenwardy |
I don't understand what you mean |
| 23:56 |
sofar |
you are not allowed to refer to minetest.org for source code |
| 23:56 |
rubenwardy |
You have to publish modifications, even if they're removals |
| 23:56 |
sofar |
right |
| 23:57 |
rubenwardy |
(also, minetest.net) |
| 23:57 |
sofar |
irrlicht is not GPL, you don't need to give people the source code for that |
| 23:57 |
sofar |
but minetest is |
| 23:57 |
Megaf |
ok, rephrasing everything. The source code of my fork is available. Credits do go to Minetest |
| 23:57 |
sofar |
do you have it on github? |
| 23:57 |
Megaf |
so I am giving the source for my fork and telling where to get the source for Minetest |
| 23:57 |
Megaf |
sofar, yep, |
| 23:58 |
Megaf |
not on Megaf |
| 23:58 |
Megaf |
I have to go now, good night everyone :) |
| 23:58 |
rubenwardy |
o. |
