IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-06-28

Time	Nick	Message
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02:02	RealBadAngel	hmmmm, here?
02:02	hmmmm	yes...?
02:05	RealBadAngel	we have found reason for this "massive regression"
02:06	* VanessaE	grabs the popcorn...
02:06	RealBadAngel	kinda funny. est31 was using debug build...
02:20	RealBadAngel	anyway, going to push #2848, any objections?
02:20	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2848 -- Minimap update by RealBadAngel
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04:25	hmmmm	RealBadAngel: having a thread that does nothing too important and yet using 100% cpu even in a debug build is UNACCEPTABLE
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11:30		Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. 0.4.13 release scheduled for August 10 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
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12:47	Wuzzy	paramat, in GitHub you said something about underground biomes. do you want to explain?
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14:42	Taoki	RealBadAngel: Compiling now to try out your minimaps. Thank you for this great feature :)
14:43	kilbith	finally an interesting feature has come out :)
14:43	Taoki	Indeed. Waiting for more noticeable features to happen.
14:44	Taoki	The GIT is thankfully active. But it's usually changes that add nothing new, or don't improve performance noticeably.
14:46	kilbith	yeah, crytography for protecting your apples in your chest is not that interesting from a player's standpoint
14:46	Taoki	Interestingly enough, however, it doesn't work for me at all
14:46	kilbith	fortunally we have RBA here for make this game worth of the name
14:47	Taoki	Even with enable_minimap = true in minetest.conf
14:47	Taoki	Yep :)
14:47	kilbith	MT would fall into the boringness without him, sadly
14:48	rubenwardy	Taoki, f9?
14:48	Taoki	Aha! Thanks
14:48	Taoki	Can you make it turn on by default automatically?
14:48	rubenwardy	I don't know
14:50	Taoki	If one is added, my game might enable this by default
14:51	Taoki	One question however: How does it deal with being in deep underground biomes, or high up on floating islands... for biomes that do either?
14:52	Taoki	Also, how can it be re-positioned. I would really like a way to move it in another corner on the screen... this might interfere with some HUD's
14:53	RealBadAngel	Taoki, minimap setup via lua will be aviable in the future
14:53	RealBadAngel	mods will be able to control it
14:53	Taoki	RealBadAngel: Awesome. That's what I was thinking about, yeah
14:53	kilbith	maybe craftable and placable in the future, also
14:53	kilbith	as a separate node
14:53	RealBadAngel	yes, thats what im thinkin about
14:54	Taoki	RealBadAngel: More specifically: Only have the code generate the texture. Have mods be able to use it. On the HUD, or even on in-world paintings!
14:54	Taoki	Yep ^^
14:54	RealBadAngel	that would be nice, big billboard around the spawn with world map
14:54	Taoki	Yep
14:55	kilbith	but there are higher priorities atm
14:55	kilbith	lighting, vbo, etc.
14:55	Taoki	RealBadAngel: Also, I know you probably have a lot on your hands, but since you're most experienced with video stuff: Can you please, please, please try to be the hero that fixes this year old issue? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6418 (yes, I'm talking about the VBO code)
14:55	Taoki	Woah... kilbith just mentioned VBO before I typed that o_o
14:55	RealBadAngel	im playing with VBO right now
14:56	Taoki	Of all coincidences xD
14:56	kilbith	it being worked on
14:56	Taoki	Woah, nice!
14:56	Taoki	Again, of all coincidences. Can I read people's minds? ;)
14:56	RealBadAngel	good is that it is working
14:56	RealBadAngel	bad is that its gonna work flawlessly only when shaders enabled
14:56	Taoki	RealBadAngel: But thank you then! I really want the FPS improvements it brings, they are very important. If only it wasn't for that cursed memory usage...
14:56	kilbith	particles and lighting should be managed natively by irrlicht also
14:57	Taoki	Eh... it can be shaders-only, don't mind. Anything as long as it works :)
14:57	Taoki	kilbith: Agreed. Hardware is lighting is planned IIRC
14:57	Calinou	we can easily wait 2 years for hardware lighting
14:57	Taoki	I think VBO is a priority however. FPS and performance are a priority
14:57	Taoki	Calinou: Sure.
14:58	Taoki	Not much more than 2 years though :)
14:58	Taoki	Anyway BBL
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15:37	RealBadAngel	hi est31
15:37	RealBadAngel	with those semaphores you forget bout one thing
15:37	RealBadAngel	you let minimap update only when new blocks were loaded
15:39	est31	your fix is not needed, I think
15:40	est31	have you tested it?
15:40	RealBadAngel	ofc its needed
15:40	RealBadAngel	without it map will never update
15:40	RealBadAngel	i mean without new blocks
15:40	est31	yes
15:41	RealBadAngel	and thats wrong
15:41	est31	but usually a map update is a "new block"
15:41	RealBadAngel	no
15:41	RealBadAngel	map is being made out of cached blocks
15:42	RealBadAngel	you havent get the idea how it works
15:42	RealBadAngel	cached blocks are not the map
15:43	RealBadAngel	theyre just data for mapper, and you have disabled map generation just
15:48	RealBadAngel	anyway, you dont need now fancy gimmicks with texture
15:49	RealBadAngel	i couldnt understand why you would ever need that, until i realized that you have broken map generation ;)
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15:55	rubenwardy	Hi, I'd like reviewers for #2094 and/or #1748
15:55	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2094 -- Fix offset being ignored by inventory bar HUD by rubenwardy
15:55	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1748 -- Add lua errors to error dialog by rubenwardy
16:06	est31	ok RealBadAngel I agree the fix is needed
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16:18	est31	rubenwardy, 2094 is still waiting for sapier, isnt it
16:19	rubenwardy	Sapier is the one that wrote the hud scaling code and knows how it works
16:19	rubenwardy	but he's been AWOL for a while
16:20	rubenwardy	What's it called when you copy a piece of code from one section to another, without understanding how it works?
16:20	est31	copy-paste??
16:20	est31	dunno
16:21	est31	either way I wonder how other people see this +1 rule for PRs from core devs
16:21	est31	for me, the author being a coredev counts as first +1
16:21	est31	hmmmm said its not how it was meant
16:22	rubenwardy	It needs to be reviewed separately by other people, as the author may miss things
16:22	rubenwardy	the whole clean pair of eyes thing
16:24	est31	I know, but the author of the PR is trusted, being a coredev
16:24	est31	I mean, then this maintainer thingy where you can push without any review is even worse
16:25	rubenwardy	true
16:26	hmmmm	okay
16:26	hmmmm	so code peer reviews are usually carried out by two peers
16:26	hmmmm	i.e. not the author himself
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16:26	hmmmm	core developers are given more trust, they have commit privileges ffs
16:27	hmmmm	but i don't see why there should be more complacency in reviewing their code
16:27	hmmmm	core developers sure aren't falliable
16:27	hmmmm	the trivial exception should be obvious
16:27	hmmmm	the maintainer exception doesn't mean without review
16:27	hmmmm	you should at least announce what's going on in the channel
16:28	hmmmm	completely new features should probably have more review, like I would say 3 people
16:28	est31	hmmmm, all nice, but we have 95 open pull requests
16:29	est31	I still miss a second +1 from the game maintainers
16:29	est31	you cant say "I want 1000 people to review this" if none of them are active
16:29	hmmmm	i know
16:30	hmmmm	there's simply not enough active people
16:30	est31	if we had more, I'd agree to your ideas, but now we can't afford them
16:30	hmmmm	so which is it? compromise quality?
16:31	hmmmm	i tend to value quality more than snazzy new features
16:31	hmmmm	a lot of developers got upset with this choice and this is how freeminer was born
16:31	hmmmm	less oversight, less review, less rigor, and as a result, less stable
16:31	est31	quality is important too, yes.
16:32	hmmmm	a lot of people are already upset with how slow and unstable minetest is
16:32	hmmmm	we don't need to make the problem worse
16:32	est31	a lot of people are already upset with how slow development is
16:32	hmmmm	there's like less than one person working on minetest at any given time
16:33	est31	I try hard to reduce the number of open prs
16:33	hmmmm	there are a lot of people who like to play video games but not a lot of people who are able to code them
16:33	hmmmm	est31, let's go through some pull requests
16:33	hmmmm	are you free for the next hour or so?
16:33	est31	yes
16:34	est31	I see it this way, if there is a problem with a merged PR, then those core devs who +1ed it (and the author) are responsible to fix the issue
16:34	hmmmm	do you think that encourages people to +1
16:34	hmmmm	or hide
16:34	est31	and btw, if we couldn't have fixed the 100% cpu problem yesterday, a git revert would have been justified
16:35	hmmmm	I still think there's room for optimization there
16:35	hmmmm	and I mean no offense to RBA, but knowing him, he's never going to perfect the feature
16:35	est31	thats what we have master for
16:36	est31	its not perfect yes, but already in a playable, acceptable state
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16:36	hmmmm	if things don't get done the right way the first time around, nobody goes back to fix them
16:36	est31	also, which problems do you see with minimap?
16:37	est31	I think if we see master as a holy temple where only 100% perfect code can be commited, master is dead.
16:38	est31	I dont want to blindly add any pr proposed
16:38	est31	like freeminer
16:38	hmmmm	well I don't know if it's a problem for sure but it seems to me like the consumer could get oversaturated
16:38	est31	eg they added gsmapper
16:38	est31	horribly laggy
16:38	hmmmm	so
16:38	est31	we didnt
16:39	hmmmm	we want developers who add things to follow through with their creations and make sure it's 100% perfect
16:39	est31	and rba rewrote a new minimap, and its much greater now
16:39	hmmmm	but this isn't happening because polish is booooring
16:39	hmmmm	what's fun is making new buggy code with awesome cool new features
16:40	hmmmm	if this were the corporate world people would need to make their own code 100% perfect because their food depends on it
16:40	hmmmm	we don't have that kind of coersiveness
16:41	est31	it depends on where you are in corporate world
16:41	hmmmm	can you think of some way to encourage developers to develop complete solutions
16:41	est31	I agree we shouldn't rush things
16:42	est31	but very few people can write acceptable c++ code, and even fewer can polish it
16:42	hmmmm	what I would like to know is how we're doing relative to other open source projects of the same type, with the same amount of users, and the same amount of developers
16:42	est31	I don't think we should say "sorry you cant contribute" for those who only write acceptable code
16:43	hmmmm	because these are problems inherent with the development model
16:43	hmmmm	maybe minetest is actually doing fantastic
16:43	hmmmm	the Linux kernel is something that's quite universal
16:43	hmmmm	it's useful to everybody
16:44	est31	but certainly not our size
16:44	hmmmm	it has so many developers that they can afford to say "sorry you can't contribute" unless their code is stupendous
16:44	hmmmm	so, is this some kind of open source project darwinism at work?
16:45	hmmmm	the most inherently useful/universal projects get the highest quality development and the most attention?
16:46	est31	still it doesn't mean our code can't be polished
16:46	est31	SN likes to polishh things
16:46	hmmmm	only the people who /care/ are the ones going to polish
16:46	hmmmm	nothing is likely to come of this talk
16:47	hmmmm	the problems are obvious, the solutions are not
16:47	rubenwardy	How can we motivate people to do bug fixing and polishes etc?
16:48	hmmmm	by its very nature, minetest attracts complete novices to coding
16:48	est31	I think, as long as we have acceptable master, where there are no side effects of new features, everything is fine
16:48	hmmmm	the more advanced the developer, the less likely a bug fix or polish will be necessary to begin with
16:48	est31	polishing can be done later, and be done by other people who add the features
16:48	hmmmm	who are the 'other people'?
16:48	rubenwardy	I mean generally, as in bug fixing existing code.
16:48	est31	those who care, hmmmm.
16:48	est31	as you said
16:49	hmmmm	there aren't enough of those types
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16:49	est31	unfortunately
16:49	hmmmm	there's me, you, zeno, SN,
16:49	hmmmm	and that's about it
16:49	est31	yea :(
16:49	hmmmm	I took the approach of being the polish-er for some guy's new feature
16:49	hmmmm	that's the result of Hud
16:50	hmmmm	err, that's how Hud came about
16:50	kilbith	not only the core-devs does the dirty work fyi
16:50	rubenwardy	I'd love to be able to help more, I just don't have the experience. :(
16:50	hmmmm	Hud was actually nicely polished for a while before people started tacking more stuff onto it
16:50	hmmmm	but it took the effort of two people at the same time
16:51	hmmmm	and no doubt it's more frustrating for the other person
16:51	est31	i think this is a key
16:51	est31	everybody should have fun
16:51	est31	this is a free time project, no corporate project
16:52	est31	and even there its contraproductive to frustrate people
16:52	hmmmm	i used to tell people that open source code is of the same or higher quality than proprietary code
16:52	Calinou	it is still true :-)
16:52	hmmmm	that's not true in the general case i think
16:52	hmmmm	because look at the motivations at play
16:53	Calinou	writing bad code at work is rarely frowned upon
16:53	hmmmm	it might be true for linux or whatever
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16:53	Calinou	maybe in some startups, but that's the exception, not the norm
16:53	est31	hmmmm, not every corporation makes code as polished as yours
16:53	est31	at least I think
16:53	hmmmm	and not every corporation makes code as polished as my corporation does
16:53	hmmmm	:\
16:54	hmmmm	bleh
16:54	hmmmm	i think it's impossible to know for sure
16:54	rubenwardy	Not every open source project makes code as shitty as mine
16:54	hmmmm	everybody is able to view all open source projects
16:54	hmmmm	but only a very select subset of people are able to see a very select subset of corporate code
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16:56	est31	yea
16:56	hmmmm	alright, starting right now, I'd like as many people as possible to participate in the PR clearing
16:56	est31	ok
16:56	hmmmm	starting with the oldest PR first: #816
16:56	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/816 -- Add wield light by Zeg9
16:56	est31	next hour is free for me
16:57	hmmmm	so this PR did a great job at what it's supposed to do
16:57	hmmmm	the primary hangup was that people were calling it unfair
16:58	est31	lemme see
16:59	est31	yes, its one of the design descisions that shaders may not affect gameplay
17:00	est31	what we need is a new "wield light" "layer"
17:00	est31	example of low quality vs feature
17:02	est31	ok what about the next open one #943
17:02	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
17:02	hmmmm	wait
17:02	est31	this one depends on irrlicht particles
17:02	hmmmm	what was the resolution for the last one
17:03	est31	"needs improvement"
17:03	est31	what do you think
17:03	hmmmm	so you think it should be added
17:03	kilbith	est31, particles are effectively slowing down the game when there are in high number
17:03	est31	no
17:03	hmmmm	the feature itself
17:03	est31	yes its good as feature
17:03	hmmmm	when that PR first came around I supported it
17:04	hmmmm	it's just that there were more naysayers than supporters
17:04	hmmmm	so it sat
17:04	hmmmm	the primary hangup is that it's unfair, but fairness is not determined by developers of the core, but rather the mod makers
17:04	hmmmm	the subgame
17:04	est31	you didnt get a supporter (of the current state) with me :)
17:04	est31	unfair?
17:05	hmmmm	unfair because you don't have to create torches to light up caves
17:05	hmmmm	just one
17:05	est31	ah that
17:05	hmmmm	I think that piece of code should be kept for future reference and historical reasons but
17:05	hmmmm	wield lighting and things like that will be part of client side scripting if our security polices allow
17:05	est31	here I agree with you, its not a matter of core to decide
17:05	hmmmm	brb
17:06	est31	but subgame
17:06	est31	server should send to client whether it has wield lightning
17:06	est31	either with client side shaders, or a simple flag in protocol, or whatever
17:07	est31	while I myself am for the flag
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17:09	hmmmm	err...
17:09	hmmmm	hold on, i'll be back in like 15 minutes
17:09	est31	ok
17:20	Taoki	RealBadAngel: An idea has been on my mind recently. Since you are the shader developer, it's probably you I should bring it up to and ask about...
17:21	Taoki	RealBadAngel: I was wondering whether Minetest could make use to one of those 2D filters used to smooth out pixelated textures or games. You see them on GameBoy Advance or DOS emulators. Basically, they take a large pixelated image and rounden all of the pictures. Such filters have names like SAI, or Super Eagle.
17:21	Taoki	http://i.imgur.com/eo3IJ.png
17:21	Taoki	http://gerbilsoft.soniccenter.org/gens/manual/images/render/render-super-eagle.png
17:21	Calinou	yeah, HQX or such
17:21	Taoki	Some examples. The games in those screenshots are normally pixelated, like Minetest textures. Yet the filter makes them smooth like that
17:21	Calinou	those are pretty expensive, and it doesn't bring much to add them
17:22	Taoki	I see
17:22	Taoki	I was thinking that with x16 textures, such a filter could be used to soften them and make them look more artistic
17:23	Taoki	http://filthypants.blogspot.ro/2012/03/xbr-vs-hqx-interpolation-filter.html This descripes the idea in more depth
17:26	Taoki	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hqx Even better, to get an idea of what and how
17:27	Elinvention	what's the problem with hardware lightning in minetest?
17:27	Taoki	Elinvention: No one's gotten around to implementing it yet.
17:28	Elinvention	Minetest is based on Irrlicht right? Irrlicht doesn't support it?
17:29	est31	first: yes, second: dunno
17:29	Calinou	hardware lighting is also quite slow
17:29	Calinou	even for today's hardware
17:29	Calinou	(that is, realtime lighting)
17:30	Taoki	Elinvention: It does. We just aren't using it yet.
17:30	Taoki	Also seems someone already wrote hqx glsl filters. https://github.com/Armada651/hqx-shader/tree/master/glsl
17:31	Taoki	https://www.shadertoy.com/view/MslGRS Cool, another example :o
17:36	Elinvention	If hardware lightning were used, the shaders wouldn't have to be on to see the light, isn't it?
17:37	Elinvention	sorry lighting
17:44	Taoki	Yes, that's not shader related
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19:24	est31	hmmmm, back?
19:24	hmmmm	yeah
19:25	est31	ok, so the oldest pr needs enhancement, and some call it unfair
19:25	hmmmm	alright so my recommendation for 816 is that the code should be kept for reference purposes but it won't be merged in its current form at all
19:25	est31	yes
19:25	hmmmm	the reason why it's unfair is because fairness is defined by the subgame, not the developers
19:25	hmmmm	so it's a client-side modding thing
19:26	est31	or at least it should rely on some value sent by the server to the client
19:26	est31	and not settable by the client.
19:26	hmmmm	absolutely
19:26	est31	ok #943
19:26	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
19:26	hmmmm	if we do decide that running shaders downloaded from a server is safe enough, it'll be implemented that way
19:26	hmmmm	so I think we should close it
19:26	hmmmm	btw
19:27	hmmmm	we need to end each of our discussions with a final decision to keep open and add a comment to the PR, or close it out
19:27	est31	doesn't "keep around for reference purposes" mean keeping open?
19:27	hmmmm	keep it somewhere
19:27	hmmmm	make a branch perhaps
19:27	hmmmm	i don't know, but it's not going to be merged so it should be closed
19:27	hmmmm	#943
19:27	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
19:28	RealBadAngel	hmmmm, i rather take care of my code, when given feedback im able to fix things
19:28	hmmmm	what do you think
19:29	RealBadAngel	see what happened just a few minutes ago in main
19:29	hmmmm	the particle amount should be a setting
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19:29	hmmmm	not some hard coded thing
19:29	kilbith	particles in high amount is FPS killer, VanessaE please told them
19:29	kilbith	(example : shower head's particles)
19:29	hmmmm	that's because the current particle implementation sucks
19:29	kilbith	exactly
19:29	hmmmm	so...
19:29	hmmmm	want to close it out?
19:29	est31	yes
19:29	hmmmm	alright
19:30	hmmmm	close #943
19:30	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
19:30	est31	its too small for it
19:30	hmmmm	make sure you actually add a reason why you're closing it too btw
19:30	hmmmm	or do you want me to
19:30	RealBadAngel	hold on a second with those particles
19:30	est31	close it, I am doing it for 816
19:30	RealBadAngel	we are talking about a few particles when diggin a node
19:31	RealBadAngel	its absolutely not a huge ammount and it doesnt affect fps
19:31	RealBadAngel	its not moddable stuff
19:31	RealBadAngel	i did the same with digging tweaks
19:32	kilbith	RBA, try out the homedecor shower head's particle with 60 particles/s
19:32	RealBadAngel	cracks are far worse for the engine (by triggering several times mesh update) than those few particles
19:32	kilbith	you'll see the bad effect
19:33	RealBadAngel	damn, we are not talking about shower now
19:33	kilbith	it's the same particles
19:33	RealBadAngel	just a few more particles when digging
19:33	kilbith	and it's already really BAD with 60 particles/s
19:33	RealBadAngel	cracks are worse
19:33	kilbith	FPS drops as -15 FPS
19:34	RealBadAngel	with what?
19:34	kilbith	a old GPU
19:34	RealBadAngel	what is causing that drop i ask
19:34	hmmmm	a crack animation triggers a mesh update?
19:34	kilbith	when you turns on the shower head flowing 60 particles/s
19:35	RealBadAngel	hmm suprised?
19:35	hmmmm	it shouldn't do that
19:35	RealBadAngel	kilbith, that issue wasnt about the shower
19:35	kilbith	but i talk about the particles not the shower itself
19:35	kilbith	VanessaE ^
19:36	RealBadAngel	kilbith, dont mix issues plz
19:36	RealBadAngel	hmmmm, i said about that many times and tried to replace those damn cracks with particles
19:36	RealBadAngel	but cracks seems to be kinda freaky religion here
19:36	est31	#1685 is too ugly
19:37	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1685 -- Digging animations tweaks. by RealBadAngel
19:37	RealBadAngel	ugly?
19:37	RealBadAngel	oh thx :P
19:37	est31	jugding from the video, i dont like it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjG1bUBFPB0
19:37	est31	lol
19:37	RealBadAngel	fuck the vid
19:38	RealBadAngel	try the feature before trashing it
19:38	hmmmm	yeah I don't like it either...
19:38	RealBadAngel	so live with cracks :P :)
19:39	hmmmm	there should be a technically better way to replace a single texture in a mesh with a different variant
19:39	RealBadAngel	theyre even more ugly, doesnt fit all drawtypes, eat memory and lag engine
19:39	RealBadAngel	long live the cracks!
19:39	est31	heh
19:40	hmmmm	don't change a part of minetest that everybody likes because you personally can't figure out a way to make them more efficient
19:40	RealBadAngel	nobody even noticed that this feature has an option to turn it on and off
19:40	Krock	http://i62.tinypic.com/2qkt6j5.jpg I want cracks too
19:40	RealBadAngel	so one can have cracks, another highlighting plus particles
19:41	hmmmm	I think if we are hoping to generalize minetest more into an engine than a minecraft clone with some lua scripting, it's essential to somehow abstract the crack animation away from digs
19:41	kilbith	RBA, the trigger on particles is the same whether you're digging a node or activate a particlespawner
19:41	kilbith	so it's the same issue
19:41	RealBadAngel	you dont dig 100 nodes at the time
19:42	RealBadAngel	so it cannot cause an issue like lets say 100 showers :P
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19:42	kilbith	how many time per second you punch a node when holding left click ?
19:43	kilbith	it's lotsa of particles
19:43	RealBadAngel	if that digging effect is causing fps drop, im chinese ballet dancer :P
19:44	RealBadAngel	and hmm, est31 how easy for you to drop the feature without even trying how it works and feels
19:44	RealBadAngel	thats common
19:44	Krock	it's surely causing a minimalistic fps drop :P
19:44	hmmmm	alright
19:44	RealBadAngel	"screenshot is enough"
19:45	RealBadAngel	bullshit
19:45	hmmmm	so I just closed #943
19:45	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/943 -- Increase the amount of particles that breaking a node generates by ShadowNinja
19:45	hmmmm	onto #958
19:45	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/958 -- Add player list, viewable by holding Tab by sfan5
19:45	hmmmm	ahh, this one... I remember this one
19:46	hmmmm	this was implemented back when we couldn't change fonts or font colors and so the text was white on light gray and was practically impossible to read
19:47	hmmmm	it could be fixed and merged, but do we really want this to be a part of the core? this is the kind of thing that could be trivially implemented in a mod
19:47	hmmmm	what do you guys think?
19:49	est31	yea a mod should do this
19:49	TeTpaAka	This should be made by a mod, imho. The only problem for a mod would be the key binding.
19:49	TeTpaAka	But this could be fixed by client side modding.
19:51	hmmmm	client side modding has been the answer for a couple of these mods now
19:51	hmmmm	I'm going to boost the priority of client side modding
19:51	hmmmm	this is going to be what I work on after fixing some immediate bugs
19:51	hmmmm	we'll get the keybinding and screen drawing/hud features out first
19:52	hmmmm	formspec is going to be more difficult to replace so that'll come later rather than sooner
19:52	est31	ok
19:53	hmmmm	but yeah I don't agree with adding things like this to the core
19:53	hmmmm	it's a core, not a game
19:53	hmmmm	the game is the collection of mods
19:56	* VanessaE	wanders in
19:57	est31	what bugs?
19:58	hmmmm	I'm going to finally fix the damage flashing bug
19:58	VanessaE	kilbith is right about the particles though - whether they are spawned by a dig action, single-particle actions (as in the "snowdrift" mod), or as spawners like homedecor's faucets and showerhead, the more particles there are, the slower the FPS. Too late now since you already did it, but I sadly agree to closing SN's PR.
19:58	hmmmm	there's also the player texture bug
19:58	hmmmm	basically, nerzhul leftovers that he never bothered with
19:58	VanessaE	hmmmm: you talking about the fake damage in creative mode?
19:58	kilbith	^ RBA read that
19:58	hmmmm	yes
19:59	hmmmm	i know the reason for that
19:59	est31	player texture?
19:59	VanessaE	est31: sometimes the player texture comes out flat
19:59	jin_xi	lots of particles with collision detection. its expensive
19:59	hmmmm	tl;dr the server sends a DIEPLAYER event even if damage is disabled
19:59	VanessaE	instead of wrapped around a model, or comes out as "the green guy" for no reason
20:00	hmmmm	so what do you want to do
20:00	hmmmm	close out 958?
20:01	est31	yes
20:01	hmmmm	we should be keeping track of which features are getting re-written using client side modding
20:01	est31	there is http://dev.minetest.net/Client_scripting_plans
20:01	hmmmm	there it is
20:02	hmmmm	i was literally about to ask you for the link
20:02	est31	heh
20:02	est31	It has mostly stuff about the general construction
20:02	est31	not about the feature
20:02	est31	s
20:02	hmmmm	I am adding a new section
20:02	est31	but certainly a good place to put them
20:02	est31	ok
20:05	hmmmm	maybe we should add an issue to make the number of particles settable per-nodedef
20:06	hmmmm	so digging a sand node would make lots of particles whereas others maybe not so much
20:06	hmmmm	an issue so we remember about it at least
20:06	est31	good idea
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20:07	VanessaE	offtopic, sorta: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3933&p=183022#p182987
20:08	VanessaE	(summary: it would be nice if a server could detect settings on the client, for client-side configuration of a server-side mod)
20:09	VanessaE	hmmmm: as I recall, sfan5's old particles mod could (if extended) do exactly that
20:09	hmmmm	hmm
20:09	VanessaE	but it used entities to spawn particles, so it was even slower, and laggy as well
20:10	hmmmm	you have me wondering now
20:10	VanessaE	?
20:10	hmmmm	see, I had the idea of maybe using client side scripting for all special visual effects
20:10	hmmmm	like remember the light aura around light sources i implemented
20:10	hmmmm	instead of making that an attribute of the node
20:11	hmmmm	that should be a scripted special effect to draw each time that type of node is rendered
20:11	hmmmm	except in some manner that makes it fast
20:11	VanessaE	I remember that light aura
20:11	hmmmm	in the same way, could a local-only particle spawner be created on_dig?
20:11	VanessaE	in fact I was just thinking about that last night, wondering if it could be implemented again
20:11	hmmmm	i wouldn't hard code the effect in
20:12	est31	good idea
20:12	hmmmm	it would have to be made generic somehow
20:12	hmmmm	and keep in mind this also needs to be fast
20:12	hmmmm	i.e. register things, not execute lua on a callback
20:12	hmmmm	and it needs to not suck
20:13	VanessaE	well this is one of those times when it would be pretty obvious how the API should work at least
20:13	VanessaE	register_node(foo, { client_on_dig = function(blah) ; do particles ; end })
20:14	VanessaE	i.e. like a callback, but said code would be uploaded to the client at init, to be executed later
20:15	hmmmm	that's how it's already going to work
20:15	VanessaE	well at least we agree on THAT much :P
20:16	hmmmm	I don't know, maybe digging a node isn't hot enough of an event to have a registration for
20:16	hmmmm	but node rendering effect should be registered
20:16	VanessaE	why not?
20:16	hmmmm	because
20:16	hmmmm	you hardly ever dig a node
20:16	VanessaE	we have callbacks for 1927423 other things
20:16	hmmmm	so there will be two callbacks
20:16	hmmmm	start_dig
20:16	VanessaE	oh no, believe me that's not true :)_
20:16	hmmmm	end_dig
20:16	hmmmm	it'll be like mouse_up and mouse_down
20:16	VanessaE	that's not too bad an idea
20:16	hmmmm	end_dig will have some kind of boolean if the dig completed
20:17	VanessaE	good idea
20:17	hmmmm	well
20:17	hmmmm	i'm just spouting obvious ideas
20:17	VanessaE	but I mean, we have on-construct, on dig, after dig, and a few others
20:17	sfan5	>on dig, after dig
20:17	est31	gtg
20:17	sfan5	wouldn't on dig be equivalent to on punch then?
20:17	VanessaE	I meant on punch rather
20:18	hmmmm	oh
20:18	hmmmm	sfan5: perhaps so
20:18	hmmmm	except on_punch would be much more generalized than on_dig
20:19	hmmmm	est left
20:19	hmmmm	would the rest of you like to continue looking at old PRs?
20:20	kilbith	est31 ^
20:20	hmmmm	he just said he left
20:21	VanessaE	old PRs is a good idea.
20:21	hmmmm	the next one is kind of a doozey
20:21	hmmmm	i'd like to skip it for now...
20:21	VanessaE	?
20:26	est31	back?
20:26	est31	back!
20:26	VanessaE	BACK!
20:26	VanessaE	:)
20:26	VanessaE	hmmmm: which one are you talking about?
20:26	hmmmm	meta set nodedef
20:26	VanessaE	eek
20:26	hmmmm	i would like to merge that eventually
20:27	VanessaE	that's been wanted for like, forever, but one thing that occurred to me recently is, what's the worst-case scenario for a map with a fuckdton of nodes so-modified?
20:27	VanessaE	I mean, double the size? triple?
20:27	hmmmm	i'm not really sure
20:27	hmmmm	it's going to be much larger, definitely.
20:27	est31	it depends on how the format is
20:27	hmmmm	i thought you left est
20:27	hmmmm	:)
20:27	est31	yea
20:27	est31	<est31> back!
20:28	hmmmm	oh
20:28	hmmmm	rrrr
20:28	hmmmm	anyway skipping #1118 for now... like I said, it's a doozey. but I want it at least, and it needs a rebase
20:28	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1118 -- Meta set nodedef by Novatux
20:29	hmmmm	#1188 looks pretty good apart from some minor style issues
20:29	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1188 -- getTime refactoring by Selat
20:29	hmmmm	how do you guys feel about separating porting.cpp things into separate files based on 'topic'?
20:29	est31	and that it needs a rebase
20:29	est31	if we do so, we should add a new directory
20:29	est31	only for porting
20:30	est31	but ok
20:30	hmmmm	yeah
20:30	hmmmm	so this is going to add get_time.cpp or something
20:31	hmmmm	porting/get_time.cpp?
20:31	hmmmm	instead of "porting" why not something more immediately clear such as "platform-dependent code"
20:31	hmmmm	that should be in a separate issue, though.
20:32	est31	yes
20:32	est31	it should still be inside the porting namespace
20:33	hmmmm	what arguments are there for having it namespaced?
20:33	est31	because its only a platform dependent helper code
20:33	est31	basically what porting is
20:37	Nihao	Hello, protectors of the core cubes :)
20:37	Nihao	I have a question about loss of material on exchange: http://pastebin.com/awvFdh14
20:37	Nihao	Probably the same as https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2028
20:37	Nihao	It kind of "disturbs" (!) the gameplay and seems to appear with Barter Table and chests at least.
20:37	Nihao	Is it possible to fix that?
20:38	est31	it is if you know how to reproduce
20:39	Nihao	est31: Sorry, I do not reproduce it, but it crashes the server 10 tiles a day.
20:39	Nihao	times*
20:39	Nihao	Just crashed again....
20:40	est31	it is possible that a player used this to volunarily crash the server
20:40	est31	perhaps
20:40	Nihao	How to know?
20:41	Nihao	Can you instrument the code?
20:41	Nihao	To have more data in the logs
20:41	est31	Nihao, just try a debug build
20:41	est31	and open it in gdb
20:42	Nihao	With 25 people?
20:42	est31	at least its no nrz bug
20:43	Nihao	:) seems to be good news. What does it mean?
20:43	est31	that its old
20:44	Nihao	nrz
20:44	Nihao	It is old and has neve been fixed.
20:44	kilbith	nrz = core-dev
20:44	Nihao	Maybe a survivor.
20:45	Nihao	Or a really hard one.
20:46	Nihao	Or both, anyway, how can I instrumnt the code on the "productive" server to have more useful data in the logs?
20:46	est31	debug build
20:47	est31	gdb
20:47	est31	gdb has no real performance penalty
20:47	est31	or no big
20:47	est31	unlike valgrind
20:47	est31	that one is a biggie
20:48	Nihao	OK, thanks est31, I have to think that over and will hopefully be back with more precise indications soon.
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21:25	kilbith	so the PRs clearing out has stopped ?
21:26	est31	seems so
21:27	hmmmm	nope
21:27	hmmmm	let's continue on
21:27	hmmmm	let's make our goal to get below 90
21:27	hmmmm	so what do you guys think about #1277
21:27	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1277 -- Update to Lua 5.2 by ShadowNinja
21:28	kilbith	better picking 5.3 now maybe ?
21:28	hmmmm	yeah, i was thinking the same.
21:28	hmmmm	does anybody know the story of 5.3 compat with luajit?
21:30	est31	its nonexistent I think
21:30	est31	last time I checked
21:30	est31	and yes, we can switch to any version luajit supports
21:30	hmmmm	the whole selling point of luajit is that you can drop it in and it'll work
21:30	est31	but only fully supports
21:30	est31	and other way round too
21:30	hmmmm	right
21:30	hmmmm	it needs to be a 1:1 replacement
21:31	est31	yes
21:31	hmmmm	what do you think we should do
21:31	hmmmm	keep open or close?
21:32	est31	SN has invested quite alot of work
21:32	est31	it seems
21:32	est31	a large diff
21:32	est31	ah
21:32	hmmmm	the majority of that is updating the builtin version of lua
21:32	est31	its only cped from lua source
21:32	hmmmm	which is not builtin anymore
21:32	est31	yea
21:33	est31	really?
21:33	est31	what is in src/lua then
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21:34	hmmmm	ah..
21:34	hmmmm	maybe it doesn't use builtin by default then..?
21:34	hmmmm	oh it was sqlite that got dumped
21:34	est31	what I hate about lua is that they break every single release
21:34	est31	yes
21:35	hmmmm	why is there so much inconsistency between which libraries get bundled by default
21:35	est31	this is a thing a language shouldnt do
21:35	est31	?
21:35	hmmmm	sqlite isn't bundled, but lua is bundled
21:35	hmmmm	why was this choice made
21:35	est31	dunno, before my time
21:36	hmmmm	irrlicht isn't bundled
21:36	hmmmm	so you can't make the argument that only essential libraries are bundled
21:36	est31	I dunno
21:37	hmmmm	so hrmm
21:37	hmmmm	updating lua to 5.2 - close out?
21:38	est31	http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2012-01/msg00787.html
21:38	est31	"o not hold out for a fully 5.2-compatible version of LuaJIT, if you
21:38	est31	are thinking of it. Mike Pall has made it clear that he dislikes and
21:38	est31	disagrees with many of the choices made by the Lua team for this
21:38	est31	version, and has no intention of moving away from a primarily
21:38	est31	5.1-based LuaJIT."
21:38	est31	cite that and close it
21:38	hmmmm	luajit support is honestly more important than lua support
21:39	hmmmm	in 99% of the cases people are going to use luajit
21:39	est31	yes
21:39	hmmmm	(also that's an argument why I believe lua shouldn't be bundled by default any longer)
21:39	est31	but in the 1% where sb runs valgrind, things have to run smoothly too
21:39	hmmmm	should we get rid of minigmp too, do you think?
21:39	est31	shrug
21:40	est31	if you get the windows build people to agree
21:40	hmmmm	windows builds are a whole other level of pain
21:40	est31	OTOH, who is hurt by those files
21:41	hmmmm	well for a while I tried taking over the windows build
21:41	hmmmm	it was quite tough getting all the dependencies together
21:45	est31	so, the PR can be closed?
21:46	hmmmm	yeah hold on
21:46	hmmmm	i am closing it
21:46	est31	ok
21:50	est31	next one?
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21:53	hmmmm	yeah
21:53	hmmmm	#1220
21:53	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1220 -- Player information window by MirceaKitsune
21:54	hmmmm	watch 5 more PRs get added tomorrow
21:54	est31	heh
21:54	hmmmm	it's enough to make you say fuckit and give up
21:54	hmmmm	hmm
21:54	hmmmm	so this is formspec-based
21:55	hmmmm	i like the idea behind it
21:55	est31	this one is better
21:55	hmmmm	the implementation sorta sucks though
21:56	hmmmm	the implementation is pretty good for what it is, a formspec, but the problem is that it uses formspec
21:56	hmmmm	and you have to type a command to open it
21:56	hmmmm	could we merge this together with the connected player list idea for client-side modding?
21:57	kilbith	it's too specifical to be added in builtin imho
21:57	est31	if we go with our previous descision, we have to close this too
21:57	kilbith	belongs to a mod
21:57	est31	^
21:57	hmmmm	maaaaaaaybe
21:57	est31	or minetest_game
21:57	hmmmm	yeah
21:57	est31	I'd like to have it in minetest_game
21:58	hmmmm	idea time
21:58	hmmmm	what if basic player connection info gets displayed as part of a list in builtin client side modding
21:58	hmmmm	and then other games can override the info screen
21:59	hmmmm	so if you hold down tab on a game that doesn't implement this special info screen it'll just show basic information like name, connected time, latency
21:59	kilbith	also no need a formspec here, /ping <player> would be sufficient
21:59	hmmmm	but if you have special player information in your special game
21:59	hmmmm	you can override the tab button to open /your/ player info display with the game-specific stuff
21:59	hmmmm	yes? no?
22:00	est31	I dunno
22:00	est31	it gives this "default" feature
22:00	hmmmm	the default thing could be part of minetest_game then
22:00	hmmmm	well
22:00	hmmmm	I don't know, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it
22:00	est31	do we have this at other places too?
22:00	hmmmm	what now
22:01	est31	yea good
22:01	est31	it has issues of its own
22:01	est31	like minetest.setting_get("max_users")
22:01	est31	wrong info
22:01	hmmmm	ohh :/
22:02	est31	(unrelated from whether to close or not)
22:02	est31	I'd suggest we close this too, and wait for client side scripting and a formspec replacement
22:02	hmmmm	yeah
22:02	hmmmm	we can do soo much better
22:03	hmmmm	like don't get me wrong - i think this is great
22:03	hmmmm	it's the best that it can be
22:04	hmmmm	but the interfaces suck and it's like we're telling people to build a house with a saw and no hammer
22:04	est31	yea its dangerous to close PRs because "clientside scripting will make this all obsolete"
22:04	hmmmm	right
22:05	hmmmm	after this first batch that's what we'll get working on
22:05	est31	sfan5's solution is more proper
22:05	hmmmm	this is pretty high priority now that i look at it
22:07		TeTpaAka joined #minetest-dev
22:07	hmmmm	in fact gosh
22:07	hmmmm	you know what
22:07	hmmmm	a majority of these PRs are obvious client side scripting things
22:08	hmmmm	I think there's a reason for this. the Minetest UI is one particularily deficient area and it's incredibly visible, so people tend to focus on that
22:08	hmmmm	i don't want to skip around but I think it's for the best
22:09	kahrl	I have a different idea for the player list, maybe completely off base but it might work
22:10	kahrl	essentially adding a tiny thing to the core that would allow doing the rest in a mod
22:10	kahrl	the idea is to add a playerlist flag to functions like hud_add
22:10	kahrl	hud items with that flag set will only be shown whenever tab is pressed
22:11	kahrl	what do you think?
22:11	est31	I don't know how good the HUD api is
22:11	hmmmm	it sucks
22:11	hmmmm	just trust me, it sucks
22:12	hmmmm	it works for now though, that's why people use it
22:12	kahrl	maybe it's time to improve it :P
22:12	hmmmm	I suppose your suggestion could work as a stopgap measure
22:12	est31	yes
22:13	hmmmm	it's as simple as adding another attribute to hud items
22:20	kilbith	#1328 can be closed as well.
22:20	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1328 -- Add 3D torches by BlockMen
22:20	kilbith	the shape is hardcoded and it's saner to have a meshnode for maintainance / preferences. belongs to subgames.
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22:22	est31	yes
22:23	est31	and this 2 pixel proble
22:23	est31	m
22:23	est31	or no
22:23	est31	I actually hate this "flat torch" thing
22:23	est31	thats hardcoded too
22:23	est31	this is at least 3d
22:23	est31	like a proper object
22:25	kilbith	also, keep in mind that torchlike is not only used for torches
22:25	est31	but?
22:26	kilbith	this code can fuck up nodes like lanterns or so
22:26	kilbith	whatever that is not a torch
22:26	est31	they should use meshnodes
22:26	kilbith	not necessarily
22:26	est31	its horrible to have 2d objects in a 3d world
22:27	kilbith	same goes for other drawtype then
22:27	est31	the only exception being things like curtains
22:27	kilbith	if you force the 3d here, it's no longer flexible
22:28	kilbith	and easy to maintain
22:29	kilbith	or alternatively this can be added as 'torchlike3d' drawtype
22:30	est31	the only torchlike node in homedecor is a cobweb
22:30	kilbith	homedecor is not all
22:30	est31	which is perhaps even a good usecase
22:31	kilbith	from a modder standpoint i'm strongly opposed to hardcode a 3d shape to torchlike
22:32	est31	it should never have been added
22:32	est31	same as for plantlike
22:33	kilbith	but c55 liked the flatness of those drawtypes :)
22:33	kilbith	it's just FOSS, you just have to draw pixels with gimp
22:33	kilbith	s/FOSS/KISS
22:35	kilbith	that is more flexible : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1871
22:35	est31	perhaps we should add a "flat" drawtype
22:35	est31	but very laggy I think
22:35	kilbith	don't add a flat drawtype, the default torchlike should stick 2d
22:36	kilbith	because then you would force people to update their mods
22:36	est31	its only a string value
22:36	est31	ok
22:36	kilbith	really not, it belongs to a subgame as meshnode
22:36	est31	perhaps we should add a torchlike3d and a flat drawtype
22:36	kilbith	no need to complicate things
22:37	est31	and then tell people to update via logging
22:37	est31	do that for one release, and then the next release remove it
22:37	kilbith	for the history, it's me that requested to BlockMen to reopen this PR
22:38	kilbith	i thought wrong
22:38	Taoki	Ugh... a client Lua API is still being planned? Asking because it's one thing I am still not very sure about
22:38	est31	it is planned yes
22:38	Taoki	Although, I guess, it is a good idea. Just worried it might make modding too complex and divided and weird
22:39	est31	flexibility always comes at this cost
22:39	est31	but running code clientside has huge advantages
22:39	est31	you just dont have the network lag
22:39	Taoki	True, true
22:39	est31	and its distributed, and doesnt need server CPPU
22:39	est31	-P
22:40	Taoki	Hope it can be implemented in a clean and non-weird way
22:41	kilbith	kwoelkr's code is rather strong, no worries for that
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22:47	est31	ok lets skip that then
22:47	est31	hmmmm, next one?
22:48	hmmmm	yep
22:49	hmmmm	close #1328?
22:49	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1328 -- Add 3D torches by BlockMen
22:49	hmmmm	this is something that clearly should be a meshnode but it's hardcoded
22:49	hmmmm	i'd like 3d torches but it doesn't need to get added to the engine
22:50	est31	the torchlike drawtype has a bad name
22:50	kilbith	yeah as i said, it's saner to use a meshnode for maintainance and fits the preferences
22:50	est31	doing "flat" is hardcoding too
22:50	hmmmm	it is possible to wallmount meshnodes?
22:50	est31	I'm not sure
22:50	kilbith	but flatness is KISS, you don't have to bother with Blender
22:53	est31	I'd merge the PR if 2 criteria are met: 1. make it torchlike3d, leave torchlike untouched (that one should be renamed to flat in the future, but thats other issue) 2. also work with higher density textures. just make the "middle" with 1/8 of the texture size
22:54	hmmmm	yeah but it's hardcoded
22:54	est31	we will get more hardcoded drawtypes in the future
22:54	hmmmm	that's so useless
22:54	est31	like cablelike
22:54	hmmmm	ugh
22:54	hmmmm	i would strongly prefer to shy away from hardcoded things
22:54	est31	otherwise you will have to register hundreds of connection combinations
22:55	hmmmm	why can't this be done with a meshnode?
22:55	est31	as kilbith said, you can then make torches only with gimp, no blender needed
22:55	est31	we are a minecraft-like voxel game engine, no irrlicht
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22:58	hmmmm	yeah but
22:58	hmmmm	you can't do anything differently
22:58	kilbith	hardcoded = no flexibility
22:59	kilbith	against the master principle of MT
22:59	hmmmm	you can make torches... only torches. the only torches you'll be able to make are rectangular prisms jutting out of a wall at an angle
22:59	hmmmm	the only flexibility you'd have is making the texture slightly different
22:59	est31	so, then remove torchlike altogether?
22:59	hmmmm	and with such a small texture that'd mean the only thing you'd be able to do is change the color
23:00	est31	its the same as for torchlike.
23:00	hmmmm	torchlike needs to stay around for reverse compatibility
23:00	hmmmm	it wasn't the smartest idea, but it was the best they had back then
23:00	est31	we should deprecate it then
23:00	est31	with a warning
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23:01	kilbith	est31, talking about MC, you realize that there are some flat drawtypes in MC ?
23:01	est31	which?
23:01	kilbith	'signlike'
23:02	kilbith	hmm no, ladderlike
23:02	kilbith	but they are named differently
23:02	est31	yea ladders are even more or less ok
23:03	kilbith	ah, and the plants are all flats as well !
23:03	kilbith	like our plantlike
23:03	kilbith	so please listen to the modders for once
23:03	kilbith	that's a pretty bad idea to force using 3d there
23:04	kilbith	especially a determinated shape
23:04	est31	hmmmm, kilbith from what I find, we can't do right that torches blockmen proposes in that PR
23:04	est31	but only ones where there is no texture sticking out at the sides
23:05	est31	I think we should add this as a stopgap
23:05	hmmmm	you realize it becomes permanent, right?
23:05	est31	until we have wallmounted meshnodes
23:06	hmmmm	wait
23:06	hmmmm	are you sure we don't have wallmounted meshnodes already?
23:06	hmmmm	or anything that can replicate wallmounted?
23:06	hmmmm	vanessae?
23:07	hmmmm	est31: celeron seems to agree with me
23:08	kilbith	http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest/2015-01-03#i_4092174
23:08	est31	hmmmm, noted
23:09	est31	ok, so you can re-do it with meshnodes, but without flames sticking out at the sides?
23:09	hmmmm	we should probably look into ways to make implementing 3d torches simpler using meshnodes
23:26	Sokomine	regarding 3d torches: they may look nice but are usually horrible regarding gameplay. client prediction usually fails, so it feels like a very bad lag, and there are artifacts left when removing a torch. at least it was that way the last time i saw it used
23:26	Calinou	meshnodes make client prediction possible, normally
23:26	Calinou	using wallmounted parameter
23:26	Calinou	nodeboxes too but nodeboxes can't be rotated (see carbone_torches)
23:27	est31	lets jump that pr
23:27	est31	nex one?
23:29	Sokomine	Calinou: whatever. as long as it doesn't cause players to experience lag when placing a torch to get light it ought to be ok
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