| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:04 |
|
Yepoleb joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:07 |
hmmmm |
as for the mapgen flags for creating the world |
| 00:07 |
hmmmm |
light should not be an option there |
| 00:07 |
hmmmm |
nobody is ever going to want to explicitly set that |
| 00:08 |
hmmmm |
it's for modmaking use exclusively |
| 00:09 |
hmmmm |
there's also the deprecated v5 flags 'blobs' |
| 00:10 |
hmmmm |
i feel as if the GUI code doing this is very repetitive |
| 00:10 |
hmmmm |
this guy could use loops |
| 00:23 |
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| 00:59 |
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| 01:14 |
Yepoleb |
hmmmm: i found an irc log where you were talking about client-side lua, what's the current state of it? |
| 01:14 |
hmmmm |
design and planning |
| 01:15 |
Yepoleb |
it ended with a discussion about running non-free code and signing |
| 01:16 |
Yepoleb |
did you find a solution for that? |
| 01:19 |
hmmmm |
i'm not absolutely sure if i had discussed this previously, but we can't force client-side mods to have any particular license |
| 01:19 |
hmmmm |
signing is doable although impractical - this is akin to running javascript on a particular webpage |
| 01:28 |
Yepoleb |
hmmmm: i think if it is completely sandboxed, you don't need any additional security |
| 01:29 |
hmmmm |
sure.. there are exploits though |
| 01:30 |
Yepoleb |
what kind of exploits? |
| 01:30 |
hmmmm |
breaking out of the sandbox, running arbitrary code on the host machine |
| 01:32 |
Yepoleb |
yeah, but what would you explot? |
| 01:34 |
hmmmm |
you don't know until it's too late |
| 01:38 |
Yepoleb |
but you also can't secure against an unknown attack |
| 01:50 |
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| 01:53 |
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| 01:55 |
Yepoleb |
hmmmm: browsers just have a sandbox and it seems to work quite well |
| 01:55 |
hmmmm |
are you kidding me |
| 01:55 |
hmmmm |
there were so many heap spraying exploits |
| 01:57 |
Yepoleb |
how would you prevent exploits? |
| 01:57 |
hmmmm |
we can't, but that's why code signing is so appealing |
| 01:58 |
hmmmm |
the lua execution environment is a very large surface area for exploitation |
| 02:06 |
Yepoleb |
hmmmm: yeah, but signing would be way too much work |
| 02:07 |
Yepoleb |
and you can't just implement a quick bugfix, because it would take a few days to get signed |
| 02:10 |
Yepoleb |
server owners wouldn't be able to modify anything |
| 02:15 |
ShadowNinja |
Um, please *do NOT bundle GMP*. Running `pacman -S gmp` is cool, downloading an extra hundred megs which will always be in the Git history bloating the repo and extending the compilation step by a few minutes building GMP is *definitely NOT cool*. And all packagers are going to specifically avoid anything packaged for a number of good reasons. |
| 02:15 |
ShadowNinja |
s/packaged/bundled/ |
| 02:15 |
hmmmm |
keep reading |
| 02:16 |
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| 02:17 |
paramat |
i added comments to #2561 as i'm unsure if this PR works correctly with minetest.conf and minetest.conf of the subgame |
| 02:17 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2561 -- Add mapgen specific flags to create world dialog by srifqi |
| 02:18 |
hmmmm |
i'm trying to come up with some way to deprecate the flag system |
| 02:18 |
hmmmm |
it wasn't a very smart idea to expose that implementation detail to the end user |
| 02:19 |
hmmmm |
that really should be a set of boolean settings |
| 02:20 |
ShadowNinja |
mini-gmp sounds slightly better, but we shouldn't bundle anything IMO, you should always be using the full GMP anyway. |
| 02:21 |
paramat |
i have some corrections to conf.example to do, while i'm at it i will move the jungles and dungeons flags from mtgame into the engine, hope this is okay.. |
| 02:21 |
ShadowNinja |
The only reason JSONCPP's still in the tree is because some distros' JSONCPP cause segfaults when linked against Minetest. |
| 02:22 |
ShadowNinja |
And the only other bindled lib is Lua. And that's causing some major issues for the IRC mod... |
| 02:22 |
ShadowNinja |
(bundled Lua isn't configured with the distro's search paths) |
| 02:24 |
hmmmm |
what is the argument against having default bundled libraries |
| 02:25 |
ShadowNinja |
hmmmm: They're not configured for the distro, they can't be updated without rebuilding all packages that bundle them, they waste memory because each version has to be loaded... |
| 02:26 |
ShadowNinja |
I'm sure you can find a dozen other reasons with some searching. |
| 02:26 |
hmmmm |
why would they need to be configured for the distro? |
| 02:26 |
hmmmm |
minetest is only bundling a couple libraries, and this is something that does not need to be updated often |
| 02:27 |
hmmmm |
in fact we're using an older version on purpose for freebsd compatibility |
| 02:27 |
hmmmm |
third, they don't waste any memory because we'd simply *not* link against that object file if it has been chosen to use the system installation |
| 02:28 |
hmmmm |
you do understand that mini-gmp is a single C source file, correct? |
| 02:28 |
hmmmm |
it's highly portable and by no means forced onto the package builder. they can easily use the system version instead, in fact which is recommended for servers |
| 02:29 |
hmmmm |
on the other hand, bundling a default library saves a lot of pain and trouble that you'd otherwise experience with dependencies |
| 02:32 |
ShadowNinja |
hmmmm: The bindled Lua only has /usr/local in its package.(c)path, but most distros use /usr. The IRC mod comphensates for this with a hack, but it still fails on a lot of distros that use other search paths (eg, in /opt or /usr/lib-x86_64-Linux-GNU). |
| 02:34 |
ShadowNinja |
We can be compatible with (old) FreeBSD by simply not using 6.0-only features and letting users install whatever is the latest version available to them. |
| 02:35 |
hmmmm |
not old freebsd, versions as recent as 9.2 |
| 02:35 |
ShadowNinja |
mini-GMP might be OK, but I'd prefer a simple dependency. |
| 02:35 |
hmmmm |
simply put, libgmp tests the limits of many compilers and consequently breaks them |
| 02:36 |
ShadowNinja |
hmmmm: 9.3 and 10.1 are out, so yes, it's old. Maybe not obsolete, but old. |
| 02:36 |
hmmmm |
GNU libraries also arrogantly make windows a second-class citizen. i am concerned with depending on GNU libraries especially for this reason |
| 02:36 |
hmmmm |
when making my own windows build, I've noticed I had the most trouble with the GNU libraries |
| 02:37 |
ShadowNinja |
That might be a problem. |
| 02:37 |
hmmmm |
the bundled lua having only /usr/local as its package.cpath is a problem, but that's a bug with lua. i wouldn't say that's a reason to not pacakge it |
| 02:37 |
ShadowNinja |
I consider Windows a "second-class citizen" too, but I still recognize that it's important due to its userbase. |
| 02:37 |
hmmmm |
right |
| 02:38 |
hmmmm |
that same mentality carries over onto clang though |
| 02:38 |
hmmmm |
when I see that "freebsd 10.x x86 is broken" and so on it raises my concern |
| 02:38 |
hmmmm |
they don't care to work around known problems |
| 02:38 |
ShadowNinja |
hmmmm: No, Lua can't include every path that every distro uses. Heck, a user might decide to use somwhere in /home. |
| 02:39 |
hmmmm |
in general, dependencies are made easy to install with linux/bsd/etc. |
| 02:40 |
hmmmm |
dependencies are serious business and we can't expect everybody to have 100% access to them, which is why I'd rather have a builtin version |
| 03:42 |
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| 03:49 |
paramat |
i would like to push this later #2623 back in ~1hr |
| 03:49 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2623 -- Conf.example: Update, fix and improve mapgen flags docs by paramat |
| 03:49 |
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| 05:03 |
hmmmm |
hrmm |
| 05:04 |
hmmmm |
darnit where'd paramat go |
| 05:19 |
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| 05:19 |
paramat |
here |
| 05:20 |
paramat |
i'll wait for you to push 'serialize schematic' first, to avoid conflicts |
| 05:30 |
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| 05:30 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 05:30 |
hmmmm |
i don't think you'd like it right now |
| 05:31 |
hmmmm |
if you were to call serialize_schematic("foobar.mts", "lua") you'd get a table with untranslated node IDs |
| 05:31 |
hmmmm |
(well, if you were to call that during mod initialization, i mean to say) |
| 05:32 |
hmmmm |
the solution I am coming up with in another commit, to introduce the concept of the "node resolution strategy" |
| 05:32 |
hmmmm |
which you'll be able to globally set for all node resolving operations, or specifically during serialize_schematic |
| 05:32 |
paramat |
actually there are no conflicts with my PR 2623 =) |
| 05:33 |
hmmmm |
three node resolution strategies: NODE_RESOLVE_DIRECT, which directly looks up the content ID based on the contents of the name table currently existing, which means that node resolution may fail if a certain mod it contains nodes from hasn't been loaded yet |
| 05:34 |
hmmmm |
then NODE_RESOLVE_DEFERRED, which pends node resolutions until the registration phase has ended at which point it goes back and resolves all the nodes used in the schematic |
| 05:34 |
hmmmm |
and then a third, NODE_RESOLVE_NONE, where it stores a direct string list of what was loaded from the schematic definition (table or mts file, doesn't matter) and doesn't attempt to perform any resolution whatsoever |
| 05:35 |
hmmmm |
for schematic serialization, you'd want to use NODE_RESOLVE_NONE no doubt and then perhaps there should be a flag to not auto-register the schematic upon loading |
| 05:41 |
paramat |
i see. personally all i need a the moment is to (within a mod for the purpose) define a schem using a lua table, and have a way to save that as a .mts file |
| 05:46 |
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| 05:53 |
paramat |
i'll push #2623 in a few minutes |
| 05:53 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2623 -- Conf.example: Update, fix and improve mapgen flags docs by paramat |
| 05:56 |
hmmmm |
paramat |
| 05:57 |
hmmmm |
that's not just a doc update, you slipped in new default parameters |
| 05:57 |
hmmmm |
that would break worlds |
| 06:02 |
paramat |
ah.. |
| 06:02 |
hmmmm |
here's the way flags work: |
| 06:03 |
hmmmm |
there is always a baseline, default parameter hard coded into the engine |
| 06:03 |
hmmmm |
flags loaded out of config files or modified in lua are differences to that default parameter |
| 06:03 |
hmmmm |
so that way you don't need to specify "light" in mg_flags in the config |
| 06:03 |
hmmmm |
meaning that if people didn't explicitly put jungle, or dungeons, it would start doing so |
| 06:04 |
paramat |
oh man i didn't see that |
| 06:04 |
hmmmm |
same with worlds that were already created |
| 06:04 |
paramat |
will remove that stuff then, doc update only |
| 06:04 |
hmmmm |
map_meta.txt contains all flags available written in their explicit forms, but if a new default were added then it'd activate it by default in those map_meta.txts |
| 06:05 |
hmmmm |
so then you'd get inconsistent worlds |
| 06:07 |
paramat |
thanks for the review, updating PR.. |
| 06:22 |
paramat |
updated, will push when checks are done |
| 06:33 |
paramat |
now pushing 2623 |
| 06:38 |
paramat |
done |
| 06:43 |
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| 06:53 |
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| 07:03 |
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| 09:59 |
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| 10:26 |
est31 |
about mini-gmp vs. hard dependency: I think soft dependencies are better than hard ones. git can manage that additional 4k lines file. |
| 10:26 |
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| 10:31 |
est31 |
we should urge distro packagers to depend on real libgmp though. mini-gmp is clearly inferior. |
| 11:16 |
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| 12:37 |
cd2 |
hi |
| 12:42 |
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| 17:02 |
ShadowNinja |
Any objections to removing the "simple menu" that's used for Android? It prevents you from having more than one world and has a lot of code duplication. |
| 17:03 |
rubenwardy |
Would that remove touch friendliness? |
| 17:12 |
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| 17:13 |
ShadowNinja |
rubenwardy: No, it would just give a slightly different menu layout. |
| 17:14 |
rubenwardy |
Okay |
| 17:15 |
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| 17:15 |
rubenwardy |
My phone is terrible, doesn't have enough memory. I recommend you stay away from Huawei, their phones and customer service are/is crap. </partially-offtopic-rant> |
| 17:19 |
Calinou |
Backdoorhei |
| 17:19 |
Calinou |
(this is widely known) |
| 17:19 |
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| 17:19 |
rubenwardy |
Lol |
| 17:22 |
Hijiri |
what does minetest use gmp for? |
| 17:25 |
Calinou |
authentication, IIRC |
| 17:26 |
Hijiri |
oh |
| 17:47 |
ShadowNinja |
It doesn't use GMP yet, it may be added in the future though. |
| 17:49 |
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| 17:50 |
Hijiri |
oh x 2 |
| 17:50 |
Hijiri |
thanks guys |
| 18:08 |
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| 18:10 |
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| 18:38 |
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| 18:39 |
nrzkt |
ShadowNinja: agree for the unification of Android and PC platforms, Android menu is not pertinent. |
| 18:56 |
* est31 |
tests whether hmmmm is right and minetest doesnt compile for c++11... |
| 18:58 |
rubenwardy |
We should take ideas from HTML's responsive layouts |
| 18:58 |
rubenwardy |
Although CSS is horrible and fiddly |
| 19:03 |
est31 |
hmmmm is right |
| 19:03 |
est31 |
aaand its inside jsoncpp... |
| 19:04 |
hmmmm |
hrm |
| 19:07 |
est31 |
.git/rebase-apply/patch:5429: new blank line at EOF. |
| 19:07 |
est31 |
very easy to track down lol |
| 19:07 |
est31 |
(trying SN's patch) |
| 19:10 |
est31 |
but it seems only to be a problem with clang |
| 19:10 |
est31 |
http://reviews.llvm.org/rL201729 |
| 19:11 |
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| 20:43 |
paramat |
hmmmm i just realised *=/ i can move the jungles and dungeons flags from mtgame's .conf into the engine's .conf, i guess this way is okay? |
| 21:18 |
hmmmm |
yse, that would work fine |
| 21:20 |
paramat |
good, will prepare a PR |
| 21:53 |
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| 22:01 |
paramat |
okay will push #2625 later if approved |
| 22:01 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2625 -- Defaultsettings: Add dungeons and jungles flags. Update conf.example by paramat |
| 22:22 |
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