| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 01:52 |
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Zeno` joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:16 |
Zeno` |
https://gist.github.com/Zeno-/1f17444cd99a0a769ee6 |
| 02:16 |
Zeno` |
^^^ RE #2425 |
| 02:16 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2425 -- Minetest closes when double-clicking on the background of the main menu |
| 02:17 |
est31 |
looks good |
| 02:22 |
Zeno` |
will merge in 10 |
| 02:22 |
Zeno` |
two line change an PA has approved the idea (the code is two lines apart from the comment.. PR would be silly) |
| 02:22 |
est31 |
why did the brace line change? |
| 02:22 |
est31 |
dunno if you fixed or broke whitespace as it seems that you just copied that stuff from command line |
| 02:23 |
Zeno` |
I removed a blank line |
| 02:23 |
est31 |
and command line diff replaces tabs with spaces |
| 02:23 |
Zeno` |
yeah I just copied from command line :) |
| 02:25 |
Zeno` |
I'm not going apply the gist. I've already modified it in the .cpp file |
| 02:25 |
Zeno` |
apply from the gist* |
| 02:26 |
Zeno` |
I didn't disable it for Android as well because I suspect that /may/ be controversial and only one person has so far requested that |
| 02:27 |
Zeno` |
for the non-Android builds there have probably been hundreds |
| 02:27 |
est31 |
yes I agree for android it is a feature |
| 02:27 |
est31 |
needed |
| 02:27 |
est31 |
unfortunately |
| 02:28 |
est31 |
because the back button doesn't work reliably |
| 02:28 |
Zeno` |
correct |
| 02:28 |
Zeno` |
but if the android controls are updated/corrected/modified it can probably be removed at some point in the future |
| 02:28 |
Zeno` |
it's easy enough to do (obviously) |
| 02:30 |
est31 |
Zeno`, do you know what nrzkt meant with inventory being slow? he sais he doesn't remember anymore, but perhaps you have made similar observations |
| 02:30 |
Zeno` |
maybe the client/server inventory lag? no idea honestly |
| 03:40 |
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| 03:40 |
paramat2 |
ooh i have yellow spot! |
| 03:54 |
paramat2 |
minetest.generate_ores is acting over the mapchunk plus mapblock shell, therefore there is 4 to 8 times too much ore along the overlaps at mapchunk edges, i will try to fix by adding nmin, nmax parameters |
| 03:55 |
Zeno` |
ladybugs sometimes have yellow spots |
| 03:58 |
est31 |
you have too |
| 04:00 |
paramat |
i'll do the same for generate_decorations too |
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| 12:16 |
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| 12:40 |
est |
Zeno`, nrzkt other devs, I have this password manager: |
| 12:40 |
est |
https://github.com/est31/minetest-pwm |
| 12:41 |
est |
what about merging it into master? |
| 12:41 |
est |
current features: you can edit a text file and set up the passwords manually, not entering any password automatically triggers the manager |
| 12:42 |
est |
would that be ok for adding it? |
| 12:43 |
est |
the files inside the mainmenu dir differ from master at perhaps 10 lines, not more |
| 12:47 |
nrzkt |
hmmm... i don't know, i think having a cli can be useful |
| 12:47 |
est |
cli? |
| 12:48 |
nrzkt |
minetestctl changepassword nrz newpwd |
| 12:48 |
nrzkt |
and this could use a socket to talk with minetest server and let it do it :) |
| 12:49 |
est |
but until then a config file is enough? |
| 12:50 |
nrzkt |
a config file for what ? |
| 12:50 |
est |
for the passwords |
| 12:50 |
est |
this is an example file https://gist.github.com/est31/6eae770cc8c9aaaabe07 |
| 12:51 |
nrzkt |
oh this is client side ? |
| 12:51 |
est |
yes |
| 12:51 |
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| 12:53 |
nrzkt |
i think this was server side :) |
| 13:09 |
est |
nrzkt, so what do you think |
| 13:40 |
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| 13:41 |
nrzkt |
i don't agree with a password manager, but it's not because of the idea, but i disagree every password manager :). I only use keepass at work with a certificate and a strong password for my servers because i can't remember the hundreds of passwords :) (and keepass is on a dm-crypt disk with it's own password on a server too :p) |
| 13:44 |
est |
no password manager leads to password reuse or weak passwords |
| 13:45 |
est |
so you would agree with master password option? |
| 13:51 |
nrzkt |
i think it's a good idea, it's used by mozilla and keepass. But i think this password must be used to encrypt your password file |
| 14:43 |
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| 16:34 |
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| 16:40 |
VanessaE |
est: I don't see where the password being stored is being hashed/encrypted first? |
| 16:43 |
est |
ok, as it seems its not ready for the great public |
| 16:43 |
est |
I guess you are right it should be encrypted |
| 16:44 |
est |
I don't think that hashing passwords has a large benefit, but I gess at least some. |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
it's easy enough to do I guess |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
there are API functions to generate password hashes |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L1812 |
| 16:48 |
est |
meh not the api I can use |
| 16:48 |
est |
mainmenu has extra api |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
the question is whether you can pass the hash back to the engine. |
| 16:49 |
est |
yup that will be needed to be done too |
| 16:49 |
VanessaE |
you sure about that? |
| 16:49 |
est |
abouzt what? |
| 16:49 |
est |
extra api? |
| 16:49 |
est |
I wrote two functions for that api |
| 16:49 |
VanessaE |
about that specific function not being available in the menu context |
| 16:49 |
est |
(very trivial ones though) |
| 16:50 |
est |
oh |
| 16:50 |
est |
even if, it isn't the way you should use it |
| 16:51 |
est |
you should only use it with newly generated secure long random passwords |
| 16:51 |
est |
and for those, there is no difference in security if you store the hashes or the passwords itself |
| 16:52 |
est |
but should be documented probably |
| 16:52 |
est |
and yes encrypting them should be done too. |
| 16:52 |
est |
so master password |
| 16:53 |
VanessaE |
well that's like saying there's no difference between /etc/shadow storing passwords in their hashed form versus plaintext... :P |
| 16:53 |
nrzkt |
encrypt them. Hash them is useless if the minetest binary can read the password cleartext. |
| 16:53 |
est |
thats something else |
| 16:54 |
VanessaE |
when I say "hashed" in this context I do mean to imply "encrypted", though I'm aware minetest's hashing function is considered particularly weak |
| 16:54 |
est |
passwords should be stored hashed *server side* not client side |
| 16:54 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja has a proposal somewhere in the issues list to improve that |
| 16:54 |
est |
yes |
| 16:54 |
nrzkt |
it's not same. |
| 16:54 |
est |
I commented already on it |
| 16:55 |
est |
but its not the same as a password manager |
| 16:55 |
VanessaE |
why not store the obfuscated version client-side? you already have to send that version across the network in order to authenticate. |
| 16:55 |
nrzkt |
and hash store client or server side is game. Because network protocol isn't encrypted MITM permit to get the password and copy the hashed version and send it to server via a special crafted client. |
| 16:55 |
nrzkt |
storing clear text and hashed version doesn't change anything. |
| 16:56 |
nrzkt |
we need an encrypted master password over it. Don't trust the client, and don't trust the protocol. The current protocol can be spoofed by a special crafted client and you can send hashed password directly if you want :) |
| 16:56 |
est |
VanessaE, yes you can do that, in fact its just a random bunch of numbers, nobody would notice anything if you sent that instead of hashing it first |
| 16:56 |
VanessaE |
the point of storing it hashed/encrypted versus clear is just to keep it from being leaked out in case of a hack. game or not, treat all passwords as if they're important. |
| 16:57 |
est |
client must be trusted |
| 16:57 |
est |
at least by person connecting |
| 16:57 |
est |
I agree you shouldnt trust it as server |
| 16:58 |
est |
but probably you mean something else |
| 16:58 |
nrzkt |
the only way to secure storage of the password is to use an encrypted form for your file with a password or a private key |
| 16:59 |
nrzkt |
and store the private key on a secure device (like a card or an USB stick). Then encryption with master password seems more reasonable :) |
| 16:59 |
est |
yes perhaps I will add that |
| 16:59 |
est |
not the storing part |
| 16:59 |
est |
but a master password |
| 16:59 |
nrzkt |
i also think this password manager could be integrated into client |
| 16:59 |
est |
with a gui? |
| 16:59 |
nrzkt |
master password without encrypting the password file is useless. |
| 16:59 |
est |
yes of course |
| 17:00 |
nrzkt |
you can do like firefox |
| 17:00 |
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| 17:00 |
VanessaE |
having a master password is fine for geeks but I guaran-damn-tee you that average users will NOT want that. |
| 17:00 |
nrzkt |
if you use a master password the password database become encrypted with master passwrd :) |
| 17:00 |
est |
yes |
| 17:00 |
VanessaE |
better to use a key pair or something else that the user does not ever have to touch |
| 17:00 |
nrzkt |
users are free. if they doesn't tick the case in options they doesn't have the master password. |
| 17:01 |
est |
VanessaE, just what I also think. public key authentication. |
| 17:01 |
nrzkt |
key pair is stupid, because many windows users doesn't store their files securely, and it's a pain to use :) |
| 17:01 |
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| 17:01 |
VanessaE |
we don't cvare what windows users typically do with their files. |
| 17:01 |
VanessaE |
care* |
| 17:01 |
nrzkt |
public key auth = having the certificate on a separated device. Who will do that for a game, seriously ? |
| 17:01 |
VanessaE |
we care about USABILITY of the game |
| 17:01 |
nrzkt |
public key is less user friendly than master password. |
| 17:01 |
VanessaE |
asking the user for a master password just to unlock their password manager is not gonna fly. |
| 17:02 |
est |
and entering passwords on every login is just bad |
| 17:02 |
nrzkt |
master password => autocompleting password when connecting to server. |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
no. |
| 17:02 |
est |
public key => nothing autocompleting at all needed, just works |
| 17:02 |
nrzkt |
lol |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
users will just use THAT password for *everything* then |
| 17:02 |
est |
yes |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
come on nrzkt, think like an average idiot user here |
| 17:02 |
nrzkt |
most of MT users already do that in fact |
| 17:02 |
est |
even I did that in past |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
users are stupid |
| 17:03 |
nrzkt |
and adding this feature is stupid then, because users will not use it :D |
| 17:03 |
VanessaE |
no offense if any of them arte reading this log |
| 17:03 |
VanessaE |
are* |
| 17:03 |
Warr1024 |
pubkey isn't really worse than master password, if you just derive an ECDSA key from a password. |
| 17:03 |
VanessaE |
but they just are not educated at all when it comes to password management, and even those of us who ARE educated get really fucking tired of entering passwords ALL. THE. TIME. |
| 17:04 |
est |
thats why I wrote the password manager |
| 17:04 |
nrzkt |
VanessaE you contradict yourself |
| 17:04 |
Warr1024 |
one master password is better than a bunch of little passwords, at least... |
| 17:04 |
VanessaE |
why? |
| 17:04 |
nrzkt |
because you are saying users must use a public key authentication and you say users are stupid. |
| 17:04 |
nrzkt |
password is known by every user. Public key not, and public key security not. |
| 17:04 |
VanessaE |
nrzkt: yeah, and where did I say the user had to be AWARE of such auth being used at all? |
| 17:05 |
nrzkt |
a public key without a password is... stupid. |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
do you review every cert that comes between you and https: websites you visit? |
| 17:05 |
nrzkt |
... |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
well, do you? |
| 17:05 |
est |
ok, I propose compromise: public keys with optional additional master password to unlock the keys |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: it is, but it's still a password. don't ask the user to enter a password at all, otherwise the password manager totally loses its meaning. |
| 17:05 |
nrzkt |
my browser maintener do it or me for my own websites which are not using a "public and secure god ca.crt" |
| 17:06 |
VanessaE |
nrzkt: G*d damn it, answer the question YES OR NO. |
| 17:06 |
nrzkt |
VanessaE, if i steal your private key i can destroy all your servers because you don't add a password on it ? Great :D |
| 17:06 |
nrzkt |
VanessaE please be polite. |
| 17:06 |
VanessaE |
I am trying to be polite but you're pissing me off by side-stepping my questions |
| 17:06 |
est |
VanessaE, no master password has still advantage to only have to remember one password |
| 17:06 |
nrzkt |
you are so agressive. |
| 17:07 |
est |
but dont require people to set one |
| 17:07 |
nrzkt |
then i must take my train, see you. |
| 17:07 |
VanessaE |
nothing pisses me off more than people who won't give me a straight answer. |
| 17:07 |
est |
I must go too bbyee |
| 17:07 |
est |
(not because of VanessaE being a bit bad tempered) |
| 17:07 |
est |
its 18:00 here |
| 17:07 |
VanessaE |
*headdesk* |
| 17:09 |
VanessaE |
I'll say it for the logs: think of the G*d damned users, not the geeks. Of course people like US will use a master password, but THE USERS DON'T WANT THAT. Jesus fucking christ in a basket. |
| 17:11 |
sfan5 |
are we treating a game like a banking applications that needs military-grade secured passwords again? |
| 17:11 |
VanessaE |
apparently so. |
| 17:13 |
* VanessaE |
calms down |
| 17:16 |
ekem |
i dont mind entering passwordds |
| 17:16 |
ekem |
the alternative is biometrics |
| 17:16 |
ekem |
nothx |
| 17:19 |
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| 17:19 |
VanessaE |
it would have been pretty simple to just base the private key on the user's hardware or something like some commercial apps do. Offer to store a plaintext version somewhere accessible in case of changes that invalidate the key. |
| 17:19 |
VanessaE |
(then it's up to the user to make sure "somewhere accessible" is somewhere secure like a thumb drive or a printout, or whatever works for them) |
| 17:22 |
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| 17:48 |
Warr1024 |
VanessaE: probably the simplest thing to do is let the user choose if they want to have a master password or not, i.e. basically just allow it to be blank, I guess. |
| 17:48 |
VanessaE |
right |
| 17:49 |
VanessaE |
but offering to store the plaintext copy somewhere that the user can move to a safe place is also a good idea |
| 17:49 |
neoascetic |
Hi. What RUN_IN_PLACE flag supposed to do? Am I right saying it supposed to tell compiler to create standalone bundle with all dependencies included in the bundle and all stuff (saves, worlds, etc) should lie in that bundle? |
| 17:49 |
VanessaE |
I could, for example, copy said plaintext into my regular password file (which is also encrypted) as a backup. |
| 17:50 |
Warr1024 |
Personally, I consider ~/.minetest/ to be a safe place to store my own server passwords. If someone breaks in to that account, my minetest servers passwords will probably be the least of my concerns. |
| 17:50 |
VanessaE |
neoascetic: not quite a standalone bundle - it means you can move the whole Minetest directory to pretty much wherever you want on the machine (including to a thumbdrive) |
| 17:50 |
VanessaE |
but deps are not static |
| 17:50 |
VanessaE |
worlds and mods and so forth are kept in there, though |
| 17:52 |
Warr1024 |
Personally, I compile RUN_IN_PLACE=1, setup ~/.minetest/ with a bunch of symlinks for the non-code content, and store my worlds and bin/* in the there to keep my source tree clean. |
| 17:52 |
neoascetic |
i. e. all paths are relative and not absolute? |
| 17:52 |
Calinou |
RUN_IN_PLACE should be used to make portable builds |
| 17:52 |
Calinou |
else, don't set it (defaults to 0 on GNU/Linux, 1 on Windows) |
| 17:52 |
Warr1024 |
neoascetic: run_in_place means it uses relative paths like ../textures instead of /usr/share/whatever-is-appropriate-for-your-platform/textures. |
| 17:52 |
neoascetic |
Is portable mean with all the dependencies included? |
| 17:53 |
Calinou |
nope |
| 17:53 |
VanessaE |
no, dependencies are not included. |
| 17:53 |
Calinou |
it just means all paths are included in the game folder |
| 17:53 |
neoascetic |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/CMakeLists.txt#L707 |
| 17:53 |
Calinou |
Warr1024, you don't have to use “make install†to play a non-run-in-place build |
| 17:54 |
neoascetic |
Warr1024 I guess relative path are always more flexible than static, why not use them always then? |
| 17:54 |
Warr1024 |
neoascetic: I always do, myself, but for me it's just a matter of personal style. |
| 17:55 |
Warr1024 |
of course, I never install the thing system-wide (I don't want to have to sudo to do that every time I build) but for some people, system-wide is preferrable. |
| 17:55 |
Warr1024 |
also, package maintainers... |
| 17:56 |
Warr1024 |
does anyone know how inventory images (esp. inventorycube images) are stretched when rendering formspec inventories? |
| 17:56 |
neoascetic |
Ok, so RUN_IN_PLACE is always true for windows. Why this is so? |
| 17:56 |
Warr1024 |
I see a draw2DImage call that seems to only specify a position, not a destination size, but the images are definitely stretched on my screen. |
| 17:56 |
Warr1024 |
neoascetic: I don't think Windows has a consistent sense of /usr/local. I guess you could try Program Files or ProgramData or whatever, but that might be more complex than devs are willing to mess with. |
| 17:57 |
Warr1024 |
neoascetic: as I understand it, Windows is not a popular platform among devs, so it doesn't get a lot of detailed attention beyond keeping it building and running. |
| 17:58 |
neoascetic |
I think running is enough, that's why RUN_IN_PLACE is always preffered |
| 18:00 |
Warr1024 |
speaking of Windows, does anyone produce nightlies or something for it? |
| 18:00 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 18:00 |
sfan5 |
there is a forum section for minetest builds |
| 18:01 |
Krock |
Warr1024, don't worry. I blame the devs when there's a compiling error |
| 18:01 |
Warr1024 |
ooh, thanks |
| 18:01 |
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| 18:02 |
Warr1024 |
VanessaE: I managed to find the place in the formspec code where images are drawn and intercept it, so I might be able to get your formspec image interpolation stuff working. |
| 18:03 |
Warr1024 |
VanessaE: unfortunately, the best way for me to test is the inventorycube images, which appear to use a different code place, and I haven't figured those out yet. |
| 18:03 |
VanessaE |
oh good (first part) |
| 18:04 |
Warr1024 |
I see where inventorycubes are rendered, and it seems they're always rendered to a raw source image at 20% of the screen size, from what I can tell. |
| 18:04 |
Warr1024 |
but in the place where I think inventory grids are drawn (gui tables?) it doesn't look like any stretching is happening there, so I must have missed something... |
| 18:10 |
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Warr1024 |
wait, looks like it's actually hard-coded to 64x64 |
| 18:28 |
nrzkt |
VanessaE, having an alternate solution for advised users is good, right. But don't forget we are a game, not a NSA server on which we must connect to spy hackers :D |
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| 21:37 |
neoascetic |
hey! what do you think on idea of publishing result of travis build? to try them out without need to compile/etc? |
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| 22:46 |
cheapie |
Has there been any progress lately on that bug where players get randomly deleted if there are a lot of entities in the area? |
| 22:46 |
cheapie |
VanessaE is still having problems with it on her creative server. |
| 23:03 |
Warr1024 |
ah, it's building... |
| 23:04 |
Warr1024 |
can't wait to start it up and see it crash... |
| 23:05 |
Warr1024 |
wow, didn't crash. Didn't look right, but didn't crash :-) |
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| 23:27 |
Warr1024 |
VanessaE: I'm making progress on #2419 |
| 23:27 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2419 -- Formspec images scale badly |
| 23:30 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: good deal |
| 23:33 |
Warr1024 |
one of these days I need to figure out how to best setup incremental builds. |
| 23:33 |
Warr1024 |
one little 1-char typo and I have to recompile everything |
| 23:36 |
VanessaE |
cheapie: my creative server is being overrun with those ghost/fake entities, /clearobjects doesn't remove them, I have nothing left to try. the map is almost a total loss at this point unless someone fixes this fucking bug. |
| 23:39 |
VanessaE |
over 37'000 such errors today alone. |
| 23:40 |
Warr1024 |
the good news is that the scaling filters look good. The bad news is that I have yet to figure out caching correctly, and they seem to be inverted in some cases... |
| 23:40 |
VanessaE |
usually on the same blocks, over and over - and the engine never actually deletes the entities it thinks it's finding - the counts stay the same or even rise over time, for a given block. |
| 23:40 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: interesting thing about the "invert" issue is that that's happened before for some people |
| 23:40 |
VanessaE |
especially on Android |
| 23:41 |
ShadowNinja |
Warr1024: Already done. But if you modify a header file that a lot of things depend on they all have to be rebuilt. |
| 23:42 |
Warr1024 |
ShadowNinja: yeah, I just have to setup MY build scripts that wrap MT's to do it. |
| 23:42 |
Warr1024 |
I sync the repo into a sandbox so I can build without having to keep doing cleans and stuff |
| 23:42 |
Warr1024 |
and it's more reliable starting from fully-clean each time |
| 23:43 |
Warr1024 |
VanessaE: it seems to happen for me when the image is an odd number of pixels in size. |
| 23:43 |
VanessaE |
Warr1024: ah. well easy enough to detect I guess :) |
| 23:43 |
Warr1024 |
VanessaE: but then again, I don't yet properly support mirror/flip mapping correctly in the filter I wrote. |
| 23:44 |
ShadowNinja |
Warr1024: So, you want everything to be rebuilt without waiting for it to all rebuild? |
| 23:44 |
ShadowNinja |
I don't see why you'd want that though, CMake werks well. |
| 23:45 |
Warr1024 |
ShadowNinja: not exactly. Normally, when I pull from upstream, I want fully clean builds. When I'm just tweaking a file and retrying a build, then I want to do incrementals. |
| 23:46 |
Warr1024 |
well, I setup an alternative wrapper that does a bit less wrapping, so I'll see how that goes... |
| 23:46 |
ShadowNinja |
Warr1024: Then `make clean && make distclean`. But why? |
| 23:46 |
ShadowNinja |
CMake can handle the pull. |
| 23:46 |
ShadowNinja |
Even if CMakeLists.txt is changed. |
| 23:46 |
Warr1024 |
ShadowNinja: better to have never made dirty in the first place; sync src tree to a ramdrive, build it there, then sync back just the bins. |
