| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:01 |
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| 01:02 |
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| 01:16 |
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| 01:49 |
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| 02:26 |
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| 02:29 |
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| 02:30 |
gregorycu_ |
Is anyone on linux here, I want to see if something causes a crash |
| 02:33 |
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| 02:34 |
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| 02:39 |
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| 02:39 |
gregorycu |
With regards to the perf issues, is a solution simply to make sure that the render loop only processes a single mesh per loop? |
| 02:39 |
gregorycu |
Or every couple of loops? |
| 02:42 |
gregorycu |
Can we please not use TCP for communications |
| 02:54 |
Wayward_One |
i'm on linux |
| 02:54 |
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Wuzzy2 joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:04 |
gregorycu |
Wayward_One: Would you be able to paste in a unicode character into chat |
| 03:04 |
VanessaE |
paste into minetest doesn't generally work in Linux. |
| 03:05 |
gregorycu |
Oh... ok |
| 03:05 |
gregorycu |
Um... |
| 03:05 |
VanessaE |
copy-out usually does. |
| 03:05 |
gregorycu |
How many people on your server Vanessa? |
| 03:05 |
VanessaE |
meh, they're quiet today |
| 03:06 |
VanessaE |
only a couple of people on Survival at the moment, the others are idle |
| 03:06 |
VanessaE |
(that's normal for the weekend) |
| 03:07 |
gregorycu |
I want to connect and send a unicode character |
| 03:08 |
VanessaE |
go ahead. |
| 03:08 |
VanessaE |
just pick one that's not occupied if you don't mind |
| 03:09 |
|
chchjesus joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:09 |
VanessaE |
the "Vanessa/Nore Mapgen" should do |
| 03:09 |
VanessaE |
+server |
| 03:10 |
gregorycu |
Sure thing |
| 03:18 |
gregorycu |
(Sorry, heard shouting next door, went to check it out) |
| 03:23 |
|
Gerold55 joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:37 |
VanessaE |
gregorycu: ok, I see you onm the server.. |
| 03:37 |
VanessaE |
on* |
| 03:37 |
hmmmm |
hey guys |
| 03:37 |
VanessaE |
hi |
| 03:38 |
gregorycu |
:) |
| 03:38 |
gregorycu |
Found me |
| 03:38 |
VanessaE |
BOO! |
| 03:38 |
VanessaE |
ok, shoot. |
| 03:38 |
gregorycu |
Ok, let me get a unicode string |
| 03:39 |
VanessaE |
22:39:09: ACTION[ServerThread]: CHAT: <Gregorycu> Character conversion failed! |
| 03:39 |
VanessaE |
and nothing happened on my client. |
| 03:39 |
|
book` joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:39 |
hmmmm |
are there any other blockers? |
| 03:39 |
gregorycu |
Maybe a bad character |
| 03:39 |
VanessaE |
guess my servers are built without gettext |
| 03:39 |
hmmmm |
also is there any proof that scenes get rendered multiple times on singleplayer? |
| 03:40 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: until the guy/formspec and HUD scaling issues are solved, I don't think 0.4.12 should go out |
| 03:40 |
gregorycu |
Another failure |
| 03:40 |
VanessaE |
gregorycu: here it just keeps saying "character conversion failed" |
| 03:40 |
hmmmm |
guy/formspec? |
| 03:40 |
hmmmm |
oh gui |
| 03:40 |
VanessaE |
gui/formspec* |
| 03:40 |
hmmmm |
alright |
| 03:40 |
gregorycu |
Yeah, I can see that locally |
| 03:40 |
VanessaE |
damn I've been typo'ing all day :-/ |
| 03:41 |
hmmmm |
formspec scaling you mean? |
| 03:41 |
VanessaE |
yeah |
| 03:41 |
hmmmm |
I'm gonna have to take action on this myself |
| 03:41 |
hmmmm |
there's no other way things are getting done |
| 03:41 |
hmmmm |
so tell me more about this |
| 03:41 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: when sapier put his fonts-scale-with-window-size stuff in, formspecs started scaling with. |
| 03:41 |
hmmmm |
what's exactly wrong, how do I replicate, what counts as the issue being solved, or maybe just point me to an issue on github with all the relevant information |
| 03:42 |
VanessaE |
after much hair-pulling and yelling, fonts are back to normal but formspecs still scale with window size. |
| 03:42 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE: wasn't that present in 0.4.11? |
| 03:42 |
VanessaE |
no, not as far as I remember |
| 03:42 |
VanessaE |
and it certainly wasn't in 0.4.10 and prior |
| 03:42 |
VanessaE |
and now the HUD no longer scales with window size |
| 03:42 |
hmmmm |
also isn't there a "scaled" parameter for formspec? |
| 03:42 |
VanessaE |
22:42:35: ACTION[ServerThread]: CHAT: <Gregorycu> � |
| 03:42 |
hmmmm |
that one is definitely easier |
| 03:43 |
gregorycu |
Did anyone crash? |
| 03:43 |
hmmmm |
believe me i really want to get this release out |
| 03:43 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: supposedly yes, and it defaults to enabled, from what I'm led to understand. |
| 03:43 |
VanessaE |
gregorycu: no crash here. |
| 03:43 |
VanessaE |
on my client and in my debug log, I see that <?> character |
| 03:43 |
gregorycu |
I suppose we'll find out in 30 seconds |
| 03:43 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE: that strikes me as wrong behavior |
| 03:43 |
hmmmm |
should it be set by default for android?? |
| 03:43 |
hmmmm |
so this is a pretty trivial fix actually |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: for *android*, scale by window size, and scale by screen DPI makes sense |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
but for desktop, it should be fixed-scaling and scale by DPI (when it can be detected) |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
the latter part works mostly |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
the former part does not |
| 03:44 |
hmmmm |
scale-by-dpi |
| 03:44 |
VanessaE |
yeah |
| 03:44 |
hmmmm |
so what do you mean |
| 03:44 |
hmmmm |
your windows users have formspec problems, but your linux users do not? |
| 03:44 |
hmmmm |
rather, Xorg users |
| 03:45 |
VanessaE |
I mean all desktop PC users in singleplayer, any OS, any game, or any server, will display this behavior |
| 03:45 |
gregorycu |
VanessaE: I'm going to get something to eat, and study the code for a bit, thanks for your help |
| 03:45 |
VanessaE |
gregorycu: sure. |
| 03:46 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE: systems where Xorg is present have their DPI autodetected though |
| 03:46 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 03:46 |
VanessaE |
that part works fine afaict. |
| 03:46 |
hmmmm |
oh derr |
| 03:46 |
hmmmm |
you said scale by screen dpi |
| 03:46 |
VanessaE |
but shit that didn't scale before does now, like the Pause menu or the Main menu |
| 03:46 |
hmmmm |
and right now the incorrect behavior is the scale by window size |
| 03:46 |
VanessaE |
yes, precisely |
| 03:47 |
hmmmm |
I thought formspecs were supposed to work that way |
| 03:47 |
VanessaE |
they didn't used to. |
| 03:47 |
hmmmm |
like they're relative |
| 03:47 |
hmmmm |
you specify a decimal number from 0 to 1 |
| 03:47 |
hmmmm |
that way you skirt around clients having different resolutions |
| 03:47 |
VanessaE |
they used to maintain a fixed size on screen regardless of window size |
| 03:47 |
hmmmm |
did you specify it in pixels?? |
| 03:48 |
VanessaE |
eh? |
| 03:48 |
hmmmm |
the formspec size and positioning |
| 03:48 |
VanessaE |
nope, they're specified as portions of inventory slots |
| 03:48 |
hmmmm |
forgive my ignorance, I have never worked with formspec code and I never defined my own formspecs |
| 03:49 |
VanessaE |
like 3 would be the width of 3 slots in the 'i' inventory screen |
| 03:49 |
VanessaE |
text labels and buttons have a slightly different metric, but they're all relative sizes |
| 03:50 |
hmmmm |
ahh |
| 03:50 |
hmmmm |
what a shitty system |
| 03:50 |
VanessaE |
yeah |
| 03:50 |
hmmmm |
who designed this |
| 03:50 |
hmmmm |
why did it gain so much traction |
| 03:50 |
hmmmm |
everybody should be using the new better way |
| 03:50 |
VanessaE |
idk who designed it; sapier and Zefram_fysh tried to bring it under some better method but it didn't take |
| 03:51 |
VanessaE |
because it just can't be made to be backward compatible with the tons and tons of old-but-still-functional code out there |
| 03:51 |
hmmmm |
it didn't take because the majority of modmakers partake in cargo cult programming |
| 03:51 |
hmmmm |
they don't actually understand wtf it is they're doing |
| 03:51 |
VanessaE |
true enough |
| 03:51 |
VanessaE |
but given the syntax of a formspec, that's understandable. |
| 03:51 |
VanessaE |
what you see the main menu built with is not what a mod uses, |
| 03:52 |
hmmmm |
do you have any objection to breaking "old" formspec support when client-side modding hits? |
| 03:52 |
VanessaE |
mods don't even get the advantage of fstk for example |
| 03:52 |
hmmmm |
I hate it and we should blow the old format up |
| 03:52 |
VanessaE |
only if by "breaking" you mean it's deprecated and relegated to undocumented history in favor of something that's fully documented and which works better |
| 03:52 |
hmmmm |
yup |
| 03:52 |
hmmmm |
definitely that'd be the case |
| 03:52 |
hmmmm |
the formspec system would be innnnnnncredibly different though |
| 03:52 |
hmmmm |
i.e. completely client-side |
| 03:53 |
VanessaE |
there's a table-based format available now |
| 03:53 |
hmmmm |
yeah, I saw that |
| 03:53 |
VanessaE |
poorly documented as I recall, only used by the main menu |
| 03:53 |
hmmmm |
great stuff! |
| 03:53 |
VanessaE |
and still using the same funky metrics for positioning elements |
| 03:53 |
hmmmm |
a lot of stuff in minetest needs work haha |
| 03:53 |
hmmmm |
I'm not saying we use what's currently there |
| 03:54 |
hmmmm |
but it's going to be entirely table-based, and better in every way imaginable |
| 03:54 |
VanessaE |
also main menu (and maybe also one or more of sapier's mods) uses fstk |
| 03:54 |
hmmmm |
fstk is the name given to the table format? |
| 03:54 |
hmmmm |
FormSpecTableKey? |
| 03:54 |
VanessaE |
I think it's a library wrapped around it |
| 03:54 |
VanessaE |
formspec toolkit |
| 03:54 |
hmmmm |
ahh |
| 03:54 |
VanessaE |
I've never looked into it though |
| 03:54 |
hmmmm |
you should |
| 03:54 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 03:54 |
hmmmm |
you shouldn't |
| 03:54 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 03:55 |
hmmmm |
depending on how much free time I have, client-side modding might be a reality soon (tm) |
| 03:55 |
VanessaE |
nice |
| 03:55 |
hmmmm |
in terms of priorities, look: |
| 03:55 |
hmmmm |
(in terms of my own priorities): |
| 03:55 |
hmmmm |
we got the biome system rework |
| 03:56 |
hmmmm |
we got the myriad of mapgen fixes |
| 03:56 |
hmmmm |
some misc. work |
| 03:56 |
hmmmm |
emergethread performance increases |
| 03:56 |
hmmmm |
and then what? |
| 03:57 |
hmmmm |
in any case... back onto the original topic |
| 03:57 |
hmmmm |
I like how the boolean that controls formspec window scaling is given the super descriptive name "m_lock" |
| 03:58 |
VanessaE |
there's a simple way to see the scaling issue - just launch the client and compare the main menu at normal size versus max window size |
| 03:58 |
VanessaE |
heh, yeah REAL descriptive :P |
| 03:58 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d1d6a97b1cd05ec34358b6519fc232fc158cf521 |
| 03:58 |
hmmmm |
this is the thing that did it |
| 03:58 |
VanessaE |
yep, that's the one |
| 03:59 |
hmmmm |
...which seems to be 0.4.11 |
| 03:59 |
hmmmm |
unless I'm mistaken |
| 03:59 |
VanessaE |
I believe Zeno reverted it just prior to 0.4.11 |
| 03:59 |
VanessaE |
then un-reverted it or some such |
| 03:59 |
VanessaE |
or rather, *disabled* it |
| 03:59 |
hmmmm |
no it's after |
| 03:59 |
hmmmm |
yeah I see how it worked out |
| 03:59 |
hmmmm |
funny enough |
| 04:00 |
|
Zeno` joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:00 |
VanessaE |
HAH |
| 04:00 |
VanessaE |
speak of the devil and he shall appear! |
| 04:00 |
hmmmm |
so I don't know... what do you guys want to do, revert that, fix GUI scaling, then release |
| 04:00 |
hmmmm |
? |
| 04:01 |
hmmmm |
nope nevermind |
| 04:01 |
hmmmm |
what zeno did was disable the font scaling |
| 04:02 |
Zeno` |
did I? |
| 04:02 |
Zeno` |
Oh, for the workaround? |
| 04:02 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 04:02 |
hmmmm |
vanessae said you reverted zephram's commit that made formspecs scale to window size (unwanted behavior by default) |
| 04:02 |
hmmmm |
before 0.4.11 |
| 04:02 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: s/reverted/disabled/ |
| 04:02 |
hmmmm |
but i just looked at the history |
| 04:02 |
hmmmm |
it came strictly after 0.4.11 |
| 04:03 |
hmmmm |
well, changing the default status of this might make some people angry |
| 04:03 |
Zeno` |
Yeah I added a workaround just before 0.4.11 until sapier/zephram could work on it more |
| 04:04 |
hmmmm |
or wait a tick |
| 04:04 |
hmmmm |
i'm confused |
| 04:05 |
|
FR^4 joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:05 |
hmmmm |
okay it was there before 0.4.11 and then the font scaling part disabled |
| 04:05 |
VanessaE |
all right something ain't right here |
| 04:05 |
Zeno` |
all that font and gui stuff has that effect on people |
| 04:05 |
VanessaE |
why is your commit not showi--- |
| 04:05 |
VanessaE |
ahhh |
| 04:05 |
hmmmm |
but the formspec scaling was there in 0.4.11's release |
| 04:06 |
hmmmm |
Zeno`: what's your opinion? change the behavior of formspec scaling or leave it? |
| 04:06 |
hmmmm |
now that you've had it for a whole version |
| 04:06 |
VanessaE |
f7f7fec497f83da0d9f6ea2e83796720484033ff |
| 04:06 |
hmmmm |
yeah saw that one |
| 04:06 |
Zeno` |
I don't know... it's still a problem? |
| 04:07 |
gregorycu |
Crash damn you |
| 04:07 |
* Zeno` |
looks at logs |
| 04:08 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE says that behavior doesn't make sense for PCs |
| 04:08 |
hmmmm |
personally... I'm indifferent |
| 04:08 |
Zeno` |
oh being scaled by window size? I don't like that much |
| 04:09 |
VanessaE |
I can make for you an extreme example if you want |
| 04:09 |
VanessaE |
screenshot that is |
| 04:09 |
Zeno` |
I don't know of any other app that changes the sizes of its forms/dialogs when you change the window size |
| 04:09 |
Zeno` |
(not on PC anyway) |
| 04:10 |
hmmmm |
? |
| 04:10 |
hmmmm |
what about GTK |
| 04:11 |
Zeno` |
I don't use GTK :) Does it do that? |
| 04:11 |
VanessaE |
I've no objections to using GTK or QT |
| 04:11 |
hmmmm |
vanessae: no I was saying that GTK does that |
| 04:11 |
VanessaE |
just, for G*d sakes, anything but Wx :P |
| 04:11 |
hmmmm |
it's slot-based |
| 04:11 |
VanessaE |
OH |
| 04:11 |
VanessaE |
it doesn't scale individual buttons with window size |
| 04:11 |
VanessaE |
ir single-line text fields |
| 04:11 |
hmmmm |
setting something to an explicit size is a huge pain in the ass |
| 04:11 |
VanessaE |
or8 |
| 04:11 |
hmmmm |
honestly I hate gtk so much |
| 04:11 |
hmmmm |
the only saving grace is that it's a C-only api |
| 04:12 |
Zeno` |
oh, explicit size is not correct. But... what Vanessa said ^^ |
| 04:12 |
gregorycu |
Minecraft has an option to scale GUI size to window size |
| 04:12 |
hmmmm |
Zeno`: ya |
| 04:12 |
hmmmm |
Zeno`: I am reading the code right now and data.explicit_size is only set in two places |
| 04:13 |
hmmmm |
right before parseSize, and inside parseSize (wtf? parseSize should return "is size explicit") |
| 04:13 |
hmmmm |
it looks TO ME AT FIRST GLANCE like sane behavior: if the size is specified, disable scaling |
| 04:13 |
hmmmm |
if the size is unspecified, enable scaling for that element |
| 04:14 |
|
FR^4 joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:14 |
hmmmm |
what's wrong with this exactly? |
| 04:15 |
hmmmm |
the size was assumed I guess? |
| 04:15 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2002062015%20-%2011%3a16%3a14%20PM.png |
| 04:15 |
VanessaE |
there's the screenshot I was gonna show you |
| 04:15 |
hmmmm |
right |
| 04:15 |
hmmmm |
so specify your damn sizes i'd say |
| 04:15 |
VanessaE |
upper left: default window size. lower left, 1600x1200. behind those, 3200x2400-ish |
| 04:16 |
hmmmm |
I'm trying to figure out how the original code handled sizes if a size wasn't specified |
| 04:16 |
VanessaE |
originally the code based its button sizes on the height of the text. |
| 04:16 |
hmmmm |
can you explain ? |
| 04:16 |
VanessaE |
the engine code* |
| 04:16 |
hmmmm |
okay |
| 04:16 |
VanessaE |
ditto for single-line entry fields |
| 04:16 |
VanessaE |
now that's been decoupled |
| 04:16 |
hmmmm |
that sounds reasonable |
| 04:17 |
hmmmm |
enum FormspecScalingMode { FS_SM_EXPLICIT, FS_SM_WINDOW, FS_SM_TEXT }; ? |
| 04:18 |
Zeno` |
In Qt, you give a desired window size; the controls in the window are scaled to accommodate the font and the window resized as appropriate. But never does the window size scale based upon the size of its parent window |
| 04:18 |
VanessaE |
it was my argument and perhaps others that the size of a text/button element should be based on the height of its containing text, but it used to be something a bit more than that, which I think is why it's broken now |
| 04:18 |
hmmmm |
but is text size determined by DPI? |
| 04:18 |
hmmmm |
for formspecs |
| 04:18 |
VanessaE |
text size is, yes. |
| 04:18 |
hmmmm |
I am not sure what the current state of that is |
| 04:18 |
VanessaE |
if sapier were around he'd be able to explain it, but he'd also go ballistic |
| 04:19 |
hmmmm |
so scaling by text, in effect, scales by dpi |
| 04:19 |
hmmmm |
to a point |
| 04:20 |
hmmmm |
well that's okay |
| 04:20 |
hmmmm |
we can add additional scaling modes later |
| 04:20 |
VanessaE |
bottom line is, formspecs should never scale, not like you see in my screenshots anyway |
| 04:21 |
VanessaE |
not unless the formspec author explicitly tells the engine to allow it |
| 04:21 |
hmmmm |
agreed |
| 04:21 |
VanessaE |
and then single-line fields like that text entry I highlighted should never scale vertically, period. |
| 04:21 |
hmmmm |
heh :( |
| 04:22 |
hmmmm |
so why would sapier be upset with changing this functionality to something more sane? |
| 04:22 |
VanessaE |
because to him, everyone has or will have 4k/retina displays. |
| 04:22 |
Zeno` |
maybe in 25 years they will... |
| 04:22 |
hmmmm |
a lot more people do have 4k displays for real though |
| 04:22 |
VanessaE |
and us luddites with 1600x1200 sub-100-DPI desktop panels don't exist ;) |
| 04:23 |
VanessaE |
I know a lot do --- on mobiles. |
| 04:23 |
Zeno` |
why can't it work for both 4k and "normal" displays anyway? |
| 04:23 |
hmmmm |
I think they buy it because they want the desktop space, though, not because they're obsessed DPI |
| 04:23 |
VanessaE |
most desktop PC users don't even have > 1280x1024 |
| 04:23 |
VanessaE |
(or HD if they have that) |
| 04:23 |
Zeno` |
if there are some users that want it and some that don't then it should be an option |
| 04:23 |
hmmmm |
right |
| 04:24 |
VanessaE |
Zeno`: I believe I advocated for that as well |
| 04:24 |
hmmmm |
but we're trying to determine the default behavior I thought |
| 04:24 |
hmmmm |
the default behavior of a thing says a lot |
| 04:24 |
VanessaE |
let the user decide whether and by how much to scale |
| 04:24 |
Zeno` |
but anyway, right now that screenshot Vanessa showed looks wrong to me (i.e. the text input widget) |
| 04:24 |
|
FR^4 joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:24 |
hmmmm |
thaaat's just naaasty |
| 04:25 |
hmmmm |
bet nobody got the reference there |
| 04:25 |
Zeno` |
nope |
| 04:25 |
Zeno` |
we're all a bit dim |
| 04:25 |
Zeno` |
:D |
| 04:26 |
VanessaE |
sounds vaguely familiar but nope. |
| 04:29 |
VanessaE |
it has been my contention from day 1 that the user must be in full control of things like how big, relative to the window size, an element is -- that's why window managers offer "big" themes and additional scaling options, and they must be able to independently control the font size, and said font must be a consistent size no matter where it appears or how big or small the window is |
| 04:30 |
VanessaE |
but the caveat there is that the layout of the UI needs to be able to shift around to try to accommodate very small sizes if it can (formspecs can't though) |
| 04:30 |
|
book` joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:31 |
VanessaE |
s/an element/a class of elements/ |
| 04:46 |
|
Niebieski joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:06 |
Zeno` |
The water going transparent/opaque when turning your head slightly needs fixing (if possible) |
| 05:07 |
Zeno` |
Not a blocker though... it's been like that for ages |
| 05:07 |
VanessaE |
related to that, the whole alpha-z-ordering issue |
| 05:07 |
VanessaE |
I think, without shaders, it's actually gotten worse recently :P |
| 05:16 |
Niebieski |
I want to make an NPC mod, so I think I'll register the NPCs as nodes, but how I'll be able to dress skins to these nodes ? |
| 05:16 |
VanessaE |
you'd use mesh drawtype and supply a standard model file |
| 05:17 |
VanessaE |
this belongs in #minetest |
| 05:53 |
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hmmmm |
guiFormSpecMenu.cpp is the greatest atrocity of minetest |
| 09:15 |
hmmmm |
i will have great pleasure exploding the entire thing |
| 09:16 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 09:16 |
VanessaE |
see the other parts of the chat/backscroll.. |
| 09:17 |
hmmmm |
though, honestly, I think the new formspec would look like no more than a lua interface to the Irrlicht GUI functions... |
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| 12:19 |
Zeno` |
planning to merge #2244 |
| 12:19 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2244 -- Fix rebase bug, make render loop use cache setting by gregorycu |
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| 13:27 |
nore |
sfan5, since we haven't seen BlockMen for months, and I currently have very little time, what about making PilzAdam and ShadowNinja able to agree on pull requests (with the 2 dev needed to agree to merge a PR rule as before) ? |
| 13:27 |
nore |
(and able to merge them too) |
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Zeno` |
it'd help wouldn't it |
| 13:35 |
Zeno` |
considering it's basically dead :P~ |
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| 14:09 |
kilbith |
obviously agreed with Zeno, and sfan5 seems ignoring the question of nore... |
| 14:12 |
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| 14:13 |
sfan5 |
kilbith: i have a real life too, you know |
| 14:14 |
sfan5 |
kilbith: also attributing everything to malice is not a good idea |
| 14:14 |
kilbith |
that's your usual excuse, but nobody is permanently busy 18h/24. some things requires few sedonds/minutes to deal that you don't give a shit |
| 14:14 |
sfan5 |
nore: yup, that's a good idea. |
| 14:15 |
nore |
do we need an official announcement? |
| 14:15 |
sfan5 |
kilbith: we're volunteers, not people being paid to do something |
| 14:15 |
kilbith |
sfan5: and i never thought you're bad, just lacking of motivation |
| 14:16 |
sfan5 |
nore: i guess we don't |
| 14:16 |
nore |
anyway, they already have push rights, haven't they? |
| 14:16 |
sfan5 |
hm, i think they do |
| 14:17 |
nore |
ok, then ~tell-ing them that should be enough |
| 14:17 |
sfan5 |
nore: also link them to the mainter guidelines for _game please |
| 14:17 |
nore |
hm: where are those? |
| 14:18 |
sfan5 |
nore: http://dev.minetest.net/minetest_game_Development |
| 14:18 |
nore |
ok |
| 14:18 |
nore |
do you have access to the dev wiki to change the names of the maintainers? |
| 14:18 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 14:19 |
nore |
perhaps change the 50% to at least two too |
| 14:19 |
sfan5 |
kilbith: coming back to find that you have been accused of ignoring things and not giving a shit is not nice |
| 14:20 |
kilbith |
sorry, but it's a constatation, nore is forced to shake you weekly for review the PRs and merge them |
| 14:21 |
nore |
~tell ShadowNinja sfan5 and I decided to make you a maintainer for minetest_game, guidelines are here: http://dev.minetest.net/minetest_game_Development |
| 14:21 |
ShadowBot |
nore: O.K. |
| 14:21 |
sfan5 |
nore: changed the page |
| 14:21 |
nore |
sfan5, ok, make the ~tell too |
| 14:21 |
nore |
(ah, looks like I've forgotten to /msg the second one) |
| 14:23 |
sfan5 |
~tell PilzAdam nore and I decided to make you a maintainer for minetest_game, guidelines are here: http://dev.minetest.net/minetest_game_Development |
| 14:23 |
ShadowBot |
sfan5: O.K. |
| 14:23 |
nore |
^ oops, I wanted to say "made the ~tell" |
| 14:23 |
nore |
sorry :) |
| 14:24 |
sfan5 |
nore: (you forgot PilzAdam though) |
| 14:24 |
nore |
sfan5, nope, but I did it in a /msg |
| 14:24 |
nore |
just forgot to do that the second time |
| 14:24 |
PilzAdam |
I'm here, why use ~tell? |
| 14:24 |
sfan5 |
oh |
| 14:24 |
nore |
hm, because it looked like you weren't there :) |
| 14:24 |
nore |
and we didn't want you to miss it |
| 14:25 |
PilzAdam |
Tesseract is here, too |
| 14:25 |
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| 14:25 |
nore |
btw: game#419, game#421, game#422 and game#423 look good, thoughts? |
| 14:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/419 -- Clean up trapdoors code and make them more flexible by Jeija |
| 14:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/421 -- Add reverse recipes for hoes while keeping def.recipe compatibility v2 by MT-Modder |
| 14:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/422 -- Fix download URL by blha303 |
| 14:25 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/423 -- make trapdoor better visible when held in the hand by Xanthin |
| 14:26 |
nore |
PilzAdam: is Tesseract a core dev? I didn't know that... |
| 14:26 |
sfan5 |
nore: Tesseract == ShadowNinja |
| 14:26 |
kilbith |
Tesseract == ShadowNinja |
| 14:26 |
nore |
... |
| 14:27 |
nore |
ok, I didn't know that |
| 14:27 |
|
kilbith was kicked by sfan5: please come back when you have stopped blaming volunteers for wanting some free time for themselves and not being able to respond 24h. |
| 14:29 |
PilzAdam |
sfan5, kicking is bad :-/ |
| 14:31 |
celeron55 |
i don't think that was acceptable |
| 14:31 |
celeron55 |
kilbith's concerns are valid and he didn't say them in a personally attacking way |
| 14:32 |
sfan5 |
i felt attacked |
| 14:33 |
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| 14:33 |
celeron55 |
that really can't matter; otherwise it's unfair from the standpoint of the other person |
| 14:34 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/415#issuecomment-72365482 |
| 14:34 |
sfan5 |
i did not kick him because just of this |
| 14:35 |
sfan5 |
he has blamed me for not sharing his opinion before |
| 14:35 |
sfan5 |
see his link |
| 14:35 |
sfan5 |
this* |
| 14:36 |
PilzAdam |
a list of PRs that I agree to be merged: game#423, game#422, game#314 (with some tweaks), game#310, game#191 (with param2 instead of param1) |
| 14:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/423 -- make trapdoor better visible when held in the hand by Xanthin |
| 14:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/422 -- Fix download URL by blha303 |
| 14:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/314 -- Add protection support to seed placement and hoeing by codeandfix |
| 14:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/310 -- Allow overriding papyrus and cactus grow functions by HybridDog |
| 14:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/191 -- Make fire permanent when param1 == 1, except when near water by bas080 |
| 14:37 |
celeron55 |
sfan5: looking at discussions between you two, it seems like both of you make dumb and unproductive statements |
| 14:38 |
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| 14:39 |
kilbith |
sfan5, just do the disctinction between personnal attacks and contributor's activity |
| 14:39 |
sfan5 |
how is telling someone they don't give a shit about PRs a contributor's activity? |
| 14:40 |
kilbith |
i challenge you to find a personal attack against you from me |
| 14:41 |
sfan5 |
<kilbith> that's your usual excuse, but nobody is permanently busy 18h/24. some things requires few sedonds/minutes to deal that you don't give a shit |
| 14:42 |
celeron55 |
wasn't that issue solved with the addition of _game maintainers just now? |
| 14:42 |
sfan5 |
yes, it was |
| 14:42 |
celeron55 |
good |
| 14:44 |
kilbith |
i was rude and sorry for this but you simply don't take an initiative at all for the game for review/merge/comment the PRs if someone (nore especially) don't ask you. volunteering is one thing, but block the dynamics of a project because you have 50% of the decision process is another whereas few seconds or minutes are needed to cares of those pulls |
| 14:45 |
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| 14:45 |
sfan5 |
I'm sorry for not having enough time |
| 14:45 |
kilbith |
most of time if someone else than nore ask you, you simply don't react whereas you're active elsewhere in the community |
| 14:46 |
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| 14:46 |
kilbith |
everyone has 5-10 minutes of free time to alloc on a project |
| 14:46 |
PilzAdam |
kilbith, if he doesn't want to deal with dev stuff then he doesn't have to |
| 14:46 |
PilzAdam |
stop expecting too much from core devs |
| 14:47 |
celeron55 |
frankly one should try to keep out of the way of others if one doesn't have time |
| 14:48 |
kilbith |
PilzAdam: sure, nobody is forced, but this project and its lack of maintainers imply some responsabilities (such as delegation of competent people if we really have not enough time) |
| 14:49 |
celeron55 |
and the proper way to do that is to assign trusted people to fill the role before you have to assign random persons to do it |
| 14:51 |
nore |
that's why we decided to add some more maintainers |
| 14:53 |
celeron55 |
(also, we still do have new contributors coming into this project, so everyone should try to push some responsibility to them if they seem to be able to handle it, instead of just giving every task to the same old busy people) |
| 14:55 |
kilbith |
sfan5: as for that : https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/415#issuecomment-72365482 |
| 14:55 |
kilbith |
your decision was stupid, not you |
| 14:56 |
kilbith |
i don't really understand why you feel attacked just in critizing a decision |
| 14:59 |
PilzAdam |
kilbith, on the one hand, you want him to make decisions in "few sedonds/minutes", but on the other hand you criticize his decisions |
| 15:00 |
PilzAdam |
making an informed decision on a pull request requires time |
| 15:00 |
kilbith |
you have misunderstood |
| 15:02 |
kilbith |
pointing out the fact that he feel attacked because i disagree harshly of one of his decision, is unrelated with the overall reactivity |
| 15:02 |
PilzAdam |
it's not, thats my point |
| 15:03 |
PilzAdam |
if you have only 1 or 2 free hours a day and you bother to look at PRs, then you don't want an environment where people attack you "harshly" |
| 15:04 |
kilbith |
"where people attack you "harshly" -> there you're wrong |
| 15:04 |
kilbith |
attacking an idea != attacking a person |
| 15:04 |
PilzAdam |
maybe he wants to chill out; and that's not possible in such an environment |
| 15:06 |
kilbith |
i read often worse than that for the engine |
| 15:06 |
kilbith |
in terms of "harsh" talking |
| 15:07 |
PilzAdam |
so what? |
| 15:07 |
kilbith |
but anyways, i repeat: attacking an idea is not attacking a person, if you mix clumsily that evident points, better to leave the maintainance |
| 15:08 |
PilzAdam |
"@sfan5 wanted to conserve them especially without a legit reason whereas no others textures benefit of alternatives. Such absurdity leads me to close the PR." sounds like a personal attack to me, btw |
| 15:08 |
kilbith |
where ? |
| 15:08 |
kilbith |
*his decision" was absurd to me |
| 15:09 |
kilbith |
damn, that's clear enough |
| 15:09 |
PilzAdam |
you clearly question sfan5's ability to reason |
| 15:09 |
kilbith |
not at all, that's your axed interpretation |
| 15:10 |
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| 15:10 |
PilzAdam |
also closing a PR several times with the comment "I'm heatedly opposed to keep this silly folder." doesn't sound like a friendly environment to me |
| 15:11 |
kilbith |
oh, and now saying "silly folder" is a personnal attack too ? 8) |
| 15:11 |
PilzAdam |
no wonder sfan5 doesn't want to spend his little free time here |
| 15:12 |
kilbith |
oh yeah, very toxic env. |
| 15:12 |
kilbith |
... |
| 15:15 |
PilzAdam |
sarcasm doesn't help either |
| 15:15 |
kilbith |
demagogy too |
| 15:22 |
nrzkt |
if sfan5 doesn't want to spend its free time here, he doesn't need to be a core dev, because it does no dev, only troll |
| 15:25 |
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| 16:57 |
Zeno` |
celeron55, what is "active"? |
| 16:58 |
Zeno` |
e.g. I haven't been that "active" lately apart from spending 8 hours a day generating profiles etc etc etc |
| 16:58 |
Zeno` |
i.e. bug hunting |
| 16:58 |
celeron55 |
that's more than active |
| 16:59 |
celeron55 |
active = doing stuff that matters |
| 16:59 |
Zeno` |
ok, cool :) |
| 16:59 |
Zeno` |
Just wanted to make sure it wasn't related to number of PRs or commits heh. Because I really haven't been doing much in that area because I've been trying to track things down |
| 17:01 |
Zeno` |
And I admit defeat |
| 17:01 |
Zeno` |
I can't even bisect to a particular commit :( |
| 17:02 |
Zeno` |
We thought we had it the other day but it seems that the person who reported the issue still has the issue |
| 17:03 |
Zeno` |
regarding nrzkt's refactoring I've been running it for about a month on my server. No problems |
| 17:04 |
Zeno` |
I think VanessaE has as well on her servers |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
I was for a while there |
| 17:06 |
VanessaE |
not anymore, but I had no issues with it |
| 17:07 |
nrzkt |
Zeno` and VanessaE, second patchset also need to be tested, it's ready to follow the first ^^. |
| 17:10 |
Zeno` |
second patchset is client though? |
| 17:10 |
Zeno` |
or does it affect server as well? (I haven't looked closely) |
| 17:10 |
Zeno` |
oh it probably does affect server because of deserialize |
| 17:11 |
Zeno` |
I'll look at it tomorrow and if necessary apply it to my server |
| 17:12 |
Zeno` |
From what I remember seeing I don't think there would be problems |
| 17:13 |
nrzkt |
no Zeno |
| 17:13 |
nrzkt |
second patchset is packet writing |
| 17:13 |
Zeno` |
oh, that one |
| 17:13 |
Zeno` |
yeah ok |
| 17:14 |
nrzkt |
and it works very well, there are no protocol break with second patchset |
| 17:14 |
Zeno` |
I did look at them and test them when you opened the PRs. If not for the feature freeze I would have pushed for them to be merged before now |
| 17:14 |
nrzkt |
the third will break things, protocol and network, because we must change them together (but i can split the third in two, one for repairing broken packets and one for changing sockets) |
| 17:15 |
Zeno` |
sounds scary |
| 17:16 |
nrzkt |
ofc, but i will explain in details how i'll change the packet handling from socket to handlers when this PR will come |
| 17:17 |
Zeno` |
yep, cool |
| 17:17 |
nrzkt |
this PR will simplify the network layer and reduce code |
| 17:37 |
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| 18:38 |
Krock |
I think the skybox image should be loaded by default from the local texture pack |
| 18:39 |
nrzkt |
at this time it's loaded from where ? |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
I asked for that ages ago |
| 18:39 |
Calinou |
Krock, how to manage day/night transition? |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
it is not loaded from anywehre |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
you have to write a mod to load a skybox image |
| 18:40 |
nrzkt |
good idea, if community need it i think we must add it |
| 18:40 |
Krock |
a mod is not required for a custom skybox IMO |
| 18:40 |
VanessaE |
nrzkt: that is to say, skyboxes have no default image names and nothing in the default game creates/loads one, so no texture pack has any hope of relying on some "default" skybox |
| 18:40 |
Krock |
it's possible to customize sun and moon but not the sky |
| 18:41 |
VanessaE |
idk if you can customize the sun and moon images separately from the skybox |
| 18:41 |
VanessaE |
has anyone tried that? |
| 18:41 |
Krock |
m_sun_texture = tsrc->isKnownSourceImage("sun.png") ? |
| 18:41 |
VanessaE |
yeah, I know that |
| 18:41 |
VanessaE |
but I mean if a skybox is *also* in use |
| 18:42 |
VanessaE |
i.e. at the same time |
| 18:42 |
Krock |
you mean a mod should override it? |
| 18:42 |
Krock |
it should be able to override a customized skybox? |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
I'm saying I don't know what happens currently if a mod supplies a skybox and a texture pack supplies a new sun image at the same time |
| 18:43 |
Krock |
I don't know too :3 |
| 19:02 |
celeron55 |
to those who follow this channel but not the forum: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11172&p=169618#p169618 |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: saw it. agree 100%. |
| 19:10 |
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| 20:01 |
est31 |
Tesseract: to answer this :http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2015-02-04#i_4141668 |
| 20:01 |
est31 |
I guess the move isn't done as luajit doesnt fully support 5.2 |
| 20:01 |
est31 |
what about adding the bitops library to builtin lua? |
| 20:02 |
est31 |
http://bitop.luajit.org/ |
| 20:02 |
est31 |
its MIT, and luajit supports it |
| 20:02 |
est31 |
then we could efficiently solve #2250 |
| 20:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2250 -- Extend protection api to allow for protection from specific actions |
| 20:02 |
Tesseract |
est31: Lua 5.2 and LuaJIT both include bitops, and 5.3 has actual operators and 64-bit ints. :-) |
| 20:02 |
Tesseract |
But GTG, BBL. |
| 20:03 |
est31 |
yes, but move to lua 5.2 != addition of bitops |
| 20:05 |
est31 |
as I see, the reason why we cant use bitops, is because its not in builtin lua |
| 20:05 |
est31 |
so when we added that lib to builtin lua, we could use them |
| 20:21 |
hmmmm |
celeron55: still nobody could find the singleplayer regression |
| 20:21 |
hmmmm |
frankly we're not waiting for it anymore |
| 20:21 |
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| 20:22 |
hmmmm |
but there are two blockers that nobody has stepped up to the plate for... I said if nobody does them I will |
| 20:23 |
celeron55 |
i reworded the post a bit to not accuse you of it 8) |
| 20:24 |
hmmmm |
eh, it's valid |
| 20:24 |
hmmmm |
i haven't been very active |
| 20:26 |
celeron55 |
well, i changed it back then, lol |
| 20:29 |
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| 20:29 |
hmmmm |
in the interests of making a release soon, what do you say to temporarily reverting https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d1d6a97b1cd05ec34358b6519fc232fc158cf521 |
| 20:34 |
hmmmm |
honestly I don't understand how I would make the change I am trying to do while preserving all the quirky behavior that users seem to love |
| 20:36 |
celeron55 |
reverting any of that sounds like a permanent change |
| 20:36 |
celeron55 |
nobody is going to go back to it |
| 20:36 |
celeron55 |
and, i guess it can mean that we have to drop android as it absolutely requires scaling to be usable |
| 20:36 |
celeron55 |
it's a very slippery slope |
| 20:37 |
hmmmm |
i believe there is value in that commit, but it wreaks havok on PC |
| 20:37 |
hmmmm |
right now it's either, you specify an explicit size or the whole thing is scaled by window size |
| 20:37 |
hmmmm |
what it used to be is scaled by text size |
| 20:37 |
est31 |
we can do the android build with that commit enabled, and the PC build with that commit disabled until we find out how to get it work on both platforms |
| 20:38 |
hmmmm |
so naturally you have different formspec scaling modes |
| 20:38 |
hmmmm |
explicit, window, text, and i guess DPI (but not right now) |
| 20:39 |
hmmmm |
if an explicit size is not specified, then the default scaling mode is either window or text settable by configuration file |
| 20:39 |
hmmmm |
and, as you might have guessed, for android the default setting is "use window scaling" and for PC, "text scaling" |
| 20:40 |
hmmmm |
so what I am doing right at this very moment is trying to figure out how exactly the scaling works... it doesn't seem like it's per-element |
| 20:40 |
hmmmm |
size is read per-element but the decision to use window scaling or explicit size is done for the entire window |
| 20:41 |
hmmmm |
I simply do not understand the rationale for a lot of these kinds of things I'm finding |
| 20:41 |
hmmmm |
but of course changing it to something sane gets people complaining |
| 20:41 |
hmmmm |
or maybe it's genius and I simply can't see the beauty of the design |
| 20:49 |
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| 20:54 |
hmmmm |
ah okay, i misunderstood. i didn't realize that there is only one size specifier for the entire formspec |
| 20:55 |
est31 |
there is hud_scaling and gui_scaling |
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| 21:28 |
hmmmm |
can somebody explain to me wtf this is SUPPOSED to do? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d1d6a97b1cd05ec34358b6519fc232fc158cf521#diff-65f34680878a6bd86f3a59ebc0c06c6dL286 |
| 21:31 |
est31 |
fireglow: can you upload the mapfile? |
| 21:31 |
fireglow |
sorry, it's leveldb |
| 21:32 |
est31 |
can be uploaded too |
| 21:32 |
fireglow |
alpha :: minetest/world » du -h -d 1 map.db |
| 21:32 |
fireglow |
3.9G map.db |
| 21:32 |
fireglow |
:S |
| 21:32 |
fireglow |
I can, sure |
| 21:32 |
* est31 |
has a 25 mbps line |
| 21:33 |
fireglow |
nice |
| 21:33 |
fireglow |
let me make a snapshot |
| 21:34 |
est31 |
that code on the forums worrks? great gonna deploy it too |
| 21:37 |
fireglow |
est31: compressing... |
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kahrl |
hmmmm: the link points to an empty line |
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