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hmmmm |
i don't think i have ever seen a more useless forum for asking questions than #irrlicht |
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| 03:36 |
paramat |
hehe i was waiting for this, "guest12345" reports "the trees are missing" in mgv5/v7 |
| 03:46 |
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| 03:52 |
Zeno` |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4766#p167640 |
| 03:53 |
paramat |
the mapblock bug should be tracked down to either plantlife or moretrees, then bisect to find the triggering commit. perhaps plantlife because it now works in this unusual way: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3898&start=150#p156475 |
| 03:53 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: well there you go. there's you're "rule out plantlife and/or moretrees" (and for that matter any other mod I have ever even RUN). it's triggered by the L-systems code. |
| 03:53 |
VanessaE |
paramat: nope.avi, see above. |
| 03:54 |
Zeno` |
I will find it impossible to bisect until I can replicate it consistently (i.e. every run at the same location) |
| 03:56 |
Zeno` |
paramat, #2112 ... there is no performance penalty there |
| 03:56 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2112 -- Added configurable ambient_occlusion_strength. Default is 0.65 by TriBlade9 |
| 03:56 |
paramat |
it might not be L-systems |
| 03:56 |
paramat |
okay good |
| 03:57 |
Zeno` |
the new method is static const data and therefore created once when the first object of that type is created (and the compiler may even do the calculations at compile time) |
| 03:57 |
paramat |
oh sorry just read 4aiman's post |
| 03:59 |
paramat |
so it is L-systems |
| 03:59 |
Zeno` |
well, something that l-systems triggers at least |
| 04:00 |
Zeno` |
I still cannot replicate it consistently |
| 04:00 |
paramat |
i didn't understand 'static const', thanks |
| 04:01 |
Zeno` |
no problem. C++ is a big language... lots to learn hehe |
| 04:02 |
Zeno` |
Just to be clear: I can replicate this random data issue, just not reliably |
| 04:04 |
Zeno` |
paramat, also, 9 decimal places is what people normally use for a float constant in C and C++ (not picking on you, just pointing stuff out hoping it's helpful). This is because that's the precision of a float |
| 04:05 |
Zeno` |
so if you do const float f = 0.12; the compiler stores it as 0.12xxxxxxx anyway |
| 04:05 |
paramat |
cool, i see. so no processing increase |
| 04:18 |
hmmmm |
vanessae: L-systems code seems to be the culprit according to you and zeno, but I reviewed that code literally two times |
| 04:18 |
hmmmm |
let's reason about this |
| 04:18 |
hmmmm |
- spawn_tree allocates all VoxelManipulator memory in initialEmerge |
| 04:19 |
hmmmm |
- there are no addNode calls |
| 04:19 |
hmmmm |
erm, addArea |
| 04:19 |
Zeno` |
I am making a test case to hopefully narrow things down. I don't *know* that l-system is the culprit, it just appears to be able to trigger the bug |
| 04:19 |
Zeno` |
yes, addArea is what made me suspect it in the first place |
| 04:20 |
Zeno` |
and the top of the tree poking up into a non-emerged chunk |
| 04:20 |
Zeno` |
We'll see what this test case does |
| 04:21 |
hmmmm |
the only possible culprit here is VoxelManipulator::setNode() but that's not called either |
| 04:22 |
Zeno` |
For the record I got someone to use my memset patch and that didn't fix the problem, so that almost suggests that the optimisation and l-system trees are not the issue. But still testing |
| 04:22 |
hmmmm |
only raw m_data[] access followed by vm->m_area.contains(p); |
| 04:22 |
hmmmm |
ohh.. |
| 04:22 |
hmmmm |
that didn't fix the problem you say? |
| 04:22 |
hmmmm |
did it set the correct byte pattern? just to make sure |
| 04:22 |
Zeno` |
Apparently not (so Wayward_One told me anyway) |
| 04:23 |
hmmmm |
honestly |
| 04:23 |
Zeno` |
no it doesn't. param1 and param2 are incorrect |
| 04:23 |
hmmmm |
this won't get fixed until one of us experiences it first hand |
| 04:23 |
Zeno` |
yeah which is why I hope this test case can reproduce it reliably |
| 04:23 |
hmmmm |
getting moretrees... |
| 04:23 |
Zeno` |
I've only seen it happen twice |
| 04:23 |
Zeno` |
which is not enough to be helpful (to me) |
| 04:24 |
hmmmm |
some people seem to have it happen a lot to them |
| 04:27 |
Zeno` |
yes |
| 04:27 |
Zeno` |
Dunno why though |
| 04:27 |
Zeno` |
just lucky |
| 04:27 |
Zeno` |
or probably unlucky from their POV |
| 04:28 |
hmmmm |
some people said they liked them... |
| 04:28 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 04:28 |
hmmmm |
people get entertained by the stupidest things |
| 04:28 |
Zeno` |
hehehe |
| 04:28 |
Zeno` |
well they are quite artistic |
| 04:28 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 04:30 |
hmmmm |
ahh |
| 04:30 |
hmmmm |
I need plants_lib |
| 04:30 |
Zeno` |
we'll probably see a mod soon: random_blocks |
| 04:31 |
hmmmm |
so |
| 04:31 |
hmmmm |
low priority bug that i found and i have a bad workaround for |
| 04:31 |
hmmmm |
software renderer always crashes under platforms using xorg |
| 04:32 |
hmmmm |
reason being that if the software driver is selected, irrlicht refuses to populate IrrlichtDevice::IVideoDriver::SExposedVideoData::OpenGLLinux::X11Display |
| 04:33 |
hmmmm |
we need to figure out how to get the X11 display handle from irrlicht if opengl isn't being used |
| 04:38 |
Zeno` |
http://i.imgur.com/YxoCHCk.jpg :( |
| 04:38 |
hmmmm |
christ... moretrees sucks up like 12 seconds per block with -O0 |
| 04:38 |
hmmmm |
what |
| 04:41 |
hmmmm |
do I need to have all the dependencies installed in order to get the big trees? |
| 04:44 |
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Robby joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:46 |
hmmmm |
:D i hear fire |
| 04:47 |
Zeno` |
yay! |
| 04:47 |
Zeno` |
that will be random |
| 04:47 |
hmmmm |
nasty |
| 04:47 |
hmmmm |
lots of diamond ore blocks, stone, and fire |
| 04:47 |
hmmmm |
definitely uninitialized data |
| 04:47 |
Zeno` |
I have reproduced it once. But going back to the same location doing the same actions.... nothing |
| 04:47 |
hmmmm |
holy fucking taludo |
| 04:47 |
hmmmm |
it's like |
| 04:48 |
hmmmm |
not just a 1x3x2 segment of mapblocks |
| 04:48 |
hmmmm |
it's huge |
| 04:48 |
Zeno` |
yes |
| 04:48 |
Zeno` |
a monster in the sky |
| 04:48 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: all you need for moretrees is plants_lib, in the plantlife modpack. neither one has any other deps. |
| 04:48 |
VanessaE |
(aside from minetest_game/default) |
| 04:48 |
hmmmm |
for what it's worth, i'm at -308, 96, -4, seed=1, mapgen=v6 |
| 04:49 |
VanessaE |
ok I guess you already got it |
| 04:50 |
Zeno` |
I have an idea |
| 04:50 |
hmmmm |
hack up a mod that produces ltrees on demand by punching? |
| 04:50 |
hmmmm |
yeah i'm gonna do that right now |
| 04:50 |
VanessaE |
I did. |
| 04:50 |
VanessaE |
http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/extra/moretrees.tar.bz2 |
| 04:50 |
VanessaE |
replace moretrees by that, /giveme moretrees:sequioa_sapling_instant 999 |
| 04:50 |
VanessaE |
place them |
| 04:51 |
VanessaE |
er, moretrees:sequoia_sapling_instant |
| 04:52 |
VanessaE |
the added code (node_defs.lua line 136 on down) is hacky but I didn't care. it's just for this test, not for production. |
| 04:53 |
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| 04:54 |
hmmmm |
btw |
| 04:54 |
hmmmm |
i get several "assignment to undeclared global node inside a function... plantlife/trunks/generating.lua:5" |
| 04:54 |
VanessaE |
ok, I'll clean those up. |
| 04:56 |
Zeno` |
ok I can fairly reliably reproduce it now. Did it 3 times in a row |
| 04:56 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 04:56 |
hmmmm |
me too |
| 04:56 |
hmmmm |
the instant sequoia thing is very convenient for this |
| 04:57 |
hmmmm |
(0, 80, 32) - (48, 64, 16) |
| 04:57 |
hmmmm |
3x1x1 |
| 04:57 |
hmmmm |
hrmm |
| 04:58 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: did you get a screenshot of that ginormous one you got earlier? |
| 04:58 |
hmmmm |
no |
| 04:58 |
hmmmm |
:/ |
| 04:58 |
VanessaE |
oh, too bad |
| 04:58 |
hmmmm |
if this were visual studio I'd get a debugger warning telling me about accessing uninitialized memory |
| 04:58 |
hmmmm |
this sucks |
| 05:01 |
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TriBlade9 joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:02 |
Zeno` |
it just crashed my window manager lol |
| 05:03 |
TriBlade9 |
Nice job Zeno` xD |
| 05:03 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 05:05 |
TriBlade9 |
Hey guys, does anyone here have a good idea of how Minetest's low-level packet system works? |
| 05:05 |
TriBlade9 |
I can tell it's UDP and byte based, but I'm not sure exactly how it sends certain parts of the data. (Particularly wstrings) |
| 05:06 |
ShadowNinja |
TriBlade9: See doc/protocol.txt and clientserver.cpp |
| 05:06 |
TriBlade9 |
Already read, I'll take a closer look |
| 05:18 |
TriBlade9 |
Meh, I'll play around and see how it goes. |
| 05:18 |
TriBlade9 |
I suppose the first step is just getting the server to respond to a connection of some sort |
| 05:19 |
hmmmm |
weird |
| 05:19 |
hmmmm |
i can't make it happen again |
| 05:19 |
Zeno` |
I have found the unitialised data |
| 05:19 |
Zeno` |
just waiting for server to shutdown now so I can get the dump properly |
| 05:19 |
hmmmm |
wat |
| 05:20 |
hmmmm |
do tell :-> |
| 05:20 |
Zeno` |
http://pastebin.com/j8B0AqzC |
| 05:22 |
hmmmm |
aww |
| 05:23 |
hmmmm |
that's definitely not it |
| 05:23 |
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TriBlade9_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:23 |
TriBlade9 |
Testing Quassel |
| 05:24 |
Zeno` |
can't see how you can say that, hmmmm |
| 05:24 |
hmmmm |
just look at it |
| 05:24 |
Zeno` |
nearly all of them are by 0x782FC1: treegen::spawn_ltree(ServerEnvironment*, irr::core::vector3d<short>, INodeDefManager*, treegen::TreeDef) |
| 05:24 |
hmmmm |
MapBlock data is always initialized |
| 05:25 |
hmmmm |
it's initialized to CONTENT_IGNORE |
| 05:25 |
hmmmm |
in the ctor nonetheless |
| 05:25 |
hmmmm |
erm i misread that |
| 05:25 |
Zeno` |
although this is less useful than my previous "trace" |
| 05:25 |
Zeno` |
why do I copy over stuff :/ |
| 05:25 |
hmmmm |
okay, the voxelmanipulator m_data is "uninitialized" |
| 05:26 |
hmmmm |
uninitialized or simply not written to? |
| 05:26 |
hmmmm |
shoot |
| 05:27 |
hmmmm |
oh shoot shoot i see what i think is the problem |
| 05:27 |
ShadowNinja |
~give Zeno` pastebin.com |
| 05:27 |
ShadowBot |
Zeno`: Don't use pastebin.com. Use a sane pastebin like http://bpaste.net, https://dpaste.de, https://gist.github.com, http://sprunge.us, http://ix.io, http://fpaste.org ... |
| 05:27 |
hmmmm |
Zeno`: in MMVManip::initialEmerge, the bit of logic with the "if (block == NULL) ... |
| 05:28 |
Zeno` |
ShadowNinja, I don't like to waste their bandwidth, but I guess I will make an exception :) |
| 05:28 |
hmmmm |
remove the else statement for the block->copyTo(*this) |
| 05:28 |
hmmmm |
so it reads if (block == NULL) block = svrmap->createBlock(p); block->copyTo(*this); |
| 05:28 |
Zeno` |
wait, what file? |
| 05:28 |
hmmmm |
map.cpp.. |
| 05:29 |
hmmmm |
weird, I can't reproduce it anymore with the instant sequoia thing |
| 05:30 |
Zeno` |
ok, running valgrind again |
| 05:30 |
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TriBlade9 joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:31 |
Zeno` |
yeah it does sometimes and then other times does not |
| 05:32 |
hmmmm |
hum |
| 05:32 |
hmmmm |
wonder if it has to be done in the mapgen thread for it to show that bug |
| 05:32 |
Zeno` |
well that seems to have fixed the unitialised references |
| 05:33 |
Zeno` |
yep |
| 05:33 |
Zeno` |
lock that fix in |
| 05:33 |
hmmmm |
we don't know if it actually fixes the problem though |
| 05:33 |
Zeno` |
nope, but it still needs fixing :) |
| 05:34 |
Zeno` |
valgrind is now clean (apart from the expected) |
| 05:34 |
hmmmm |
if i were able to readily reproduce this shit... |
| 05:36 |
Zeno` |
I find it happens (at the same place) more often if you start somewhere else and teleport to the test location (don't ask me why because it doesn't make any sense) |
| 05:37 |
|
paramat left #minetest-dev |
| 05:37 |
hmmmm |
probably because of the mapblock creation order |
| 05:37 |
hmmmm |
if the chunk above where the tree would spawn exists already it won't happen |
| 05:38 |
Zeno` |
well I cannot reproduce any more. Will keep trying |
| 05:41 |
Zeno` |
I'll merge that first change as a start anyway |
| 05:43 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, merge now? |
| 05:43 |
hmmmm |
sure |
| 05:43 |
hmmmm |
i give up... i can't reproduce it anymore after the second time, without that fix |
| 05:43 |
TriBlade9 |
Zeno`, I think after paramat's suggestion the ao-strength pull should be good to go. I'm going to do some testing with outlandish values just to make sure it works. |
| 05:43 |
hmmmm |
it wouldn't be so infuriating if this mod weren't so slow |
| 05:44 |
Zeno` |
I'm using a different mod now :) |
| 05:44 |
VanessaE |
moretrees isn't slow, the engine is. that instant sapling goes straight into an engine call... |
| 05:44 |
hmmmm |
i stopped using the instant sapling thing since that doesn't seem to make it happen |
| 05:44 |
VanessaE |
oh ok |
| 05:45 |
Zeno` |
http://codepad.org/wxH06eEm <--- I'm using that |
| 05:45 |
hmmmm |
regardless, the instant sapling thing was slow because the abms were waiting for the emergethread envlock for on_generated |
| 05:45 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: what abms? |
| 05:45 |
hmmmm |
so that qualifies as mod slowness too |
| 05:45 |
hmmmm |
that's how your instant saplings thing works, no? |
| 05:45 |
VanessaE |
no,. |
| 05:45 |
hmmmm |
it grows on an abm? |
| 05:46 |
VanessaE |
on_place --> minetest.spawn_tree() |
| 05:46 |
Zeno` |
TriBlade9, yeah |
| 05:46 |
hmmmm |
ahhh |
| 05:46 |
hmmmm |
well regardless |
| 05:46 |
TriBlade9 |
Squashing commits... |
| 05:46 |
Zeno` |
TriBlade9, it might be worth limiting the values? |
| 05:46 |
hmmmm |
it happens in the environment step |
| 05:46 |
VanessaE |
(or in the case of a few of the saplings, executes a function in moretrees to build a random-ish model, which is then sent to minetest/spawn_tree() ) |
| 05:46 |
Zeno` |
TriBlade9, to a range that makes sense? Not sure, up to you |
| 05:46 |
VanessaE |
s:/:.: |
| 05:47 |
TriBlade9 |
Actually, they're limited to between 0 and 255 total already, so it shouldn't be an issue. |
| 05:47 |
hmmmm |
so |
| 05:47 |
TriBlade9 |
The multiplication might be a bit confusing though |
| 05:47 |
hmmmm |
the slowness i'm experiencing is due to a multitude of horrible factors |
| 05:48 |
hmmmm |
-O0, interpreted lua, map slow-lighting algorithm, envlock, etc. |
| 05:48 |
Zeno` |
try running it with valgrind! |
| 05:48 |
VanessaE |
haha |
| 05:48 |
Zeno` |
then thee shall know slowness |
| 05:48 |
VanessaE |
you're sadistic, Zeno` :P |
| 05:48 |
hmmmm |
Fuck this |
| 05:48 |
hmmmm |
i'm done |
| 05:49 |
hmmmm |
i hope that thing fixed this bug because i'm not running around like a turd waiting for chunks to generate all day |
| 05:50 |
TriBlade9 |
"running around" & "like a turd" |
| 05:50 |
TriBlade9 |
What sort of turds do you do? O_o |
| 05:50 |
hmmmm |
mobile ones |
| 05:50 |
* TriBlade9 |
backs away slowly... |
| 05:51 |
Zeno` |
what? lol |
| 05:55 |
TriBlade9 |
Alright Zeno`, the commit works fine, although I don't like the values very much. (Ground to corner darkness ratio seems too high) |
| 05:59 |
Zeno` |
I'll give it a whirl in a bit |
| 05:59 |
Zeno` |
gotta sort out the mess I've made with my repo |
| 05:59 |
TriBlade9 |
Hehe |
| 06:00 |
TriBlade9 |
I know the feeling, coming back to minetest devving after a few months of inactivity. -_- |
| 06:00 |
TriBlade9 |
Still haven't fixed chat colors |
| 06:00 |
Zeno` |
I have about 30 branches. I really should clean it up instead of being lazy |
| 06:02 |
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| 06:03 |
Zeno` |
TriBlade9, "although I don't like the values very much. (Ground to corner darkness ratio seems too high)" |
| 06:03 |
Zeno` |
can that be fixed? |
| 06:05 |
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| 06:08 |
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TriBlade9 joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:11 |
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TriBlade9 joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:14 |
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TriBlade9 joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:14 |
TriBlade9 |
Sorry, if anyone has said anything the past 15 mins or so, I've missed it. Managed to break quassel. |
| 06:14 |
TriBlade9 |
Zeno`, I saw a notification of some sort, care to re-say it? |
| 06:16 |
Zeno` |
<Zeno`> TriBlade9, "although I don't like the values very much. (Ground to corner darkness ratio seems too high)" |
| 06:17 |
TriBlade9 |
Does that mean you agree? |
| 06:17 |
TriBlade9 |
:P |
| 06:17 |
Zeno` |
looking again now |
| 06:17 |
TriBlade9 |
It's only really apparent if you use a lower value. |
| 06:17 |
TriBlade9 |
But the ground around it is way darker than corners |
| 06:19 |
Zeno` |
oh btw: http://dpaste.com/2PME226 |
| 06:20 |
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| 06:20 |
TriBlade9 |
Oh, weird. I thought I fixed that ages ago |
| 06:21 |
TriBlade9 |
Orite, paramat changed it. I need to add 'f' to the end of those numbers then, right? |
| 06:22 |
Zeno` |
yep, that should fix it |
| 06:22 |
TriBlade9 |
Darn, gotta commit again. Will do in a bit |
| 06:22 |
Zeno` |
I dunno |
| 06:23 |
Zeno` |
the shading doesn't look all that different to me, lol |
| 06:23 |
TriBlade9 |
Darken the value? |
| 06:24 |
Zeno` |
umm wait. The default *should* look the same, right? |
| 06:24 |
Zeno` |
heh |
| 06:24 |
TriBlade9 |
Yeah lol |
| 06:24 |
Zeno` |
:D |
| 06:24 |
TriBlade9 |
Pushed, should be fixed now |
| 06:28 |
Zeno` |
umm, why remove the comment that says how those magic numbers were derived? |
| 06:29 |
TriBlade9 |
Oops, accidental oversight |
| 06:29 |
TriBlade9 |
I'd removed it in an earlier commit as they were no longer there. |
| 06:29 |
TriBlade9 |
TODO: re-add |
| 06:31 |
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pro joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:31 |
Zeno` |
with ambient_occlusion_strength = 2 I can't seem to see any shadows? |
| 06:32 |
TriBlade9 |
Yes, 2 is lighter |
| 06:32 |
TriBlade9 |
Probably greater than 255 |
| 06:32 |
TriBlade9 |
< 1 is darker |
| 06:33 |
TriBlade9 |
Default is barely noticable as it is -_- |
| 06:33 |
Zeno` |
so what's the reasonable range of values? 0 to 2 ? |
| 06:33 |
TriBlade9 |
Yeah, or more like 0.5-1,5 |
| 06:33 |
TriBlade9 |
*1.5 |
| 06:34 |
TriBlade9 |
I gotta learn to tag people more often. Zeno`. |
| 06:34 |
TriBlade9 |
Also, why the backtick in the name? |
| 06:34 |
Zeno` |
because Zeno is taken |
| 06:34 |
TriBlade9 |
Oh. That was a bit anticlimatic. |
| 06:34 |
Zeno` |
:D |
| 06:34 |
TriBlade9 |
:P |
| 06:36 |
Zeno` |
I think it looks slightly wrong because the "strength scaling" is linear |
| 06:37 |
TriBlade9 |
That's quite possible. |
| 06:37 |
TriBlade9 |
However, the old addition system looked good for pretty much all values. |
| 06:38 |
Zeno` |
why not init the values in light table using the expression that is in the comment that's removed, but incorporate ao_strength to the *base* values of 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0 ? |
| 06:39 |
TriBlade9 |
Erum |
| 06:39 |
Zeno` |
well you don't even need that really. Just make 2.2 configurable |
| 06:39 |
TriBlade9 |
What? |
| 06:39 |
TriBlade9 |
I still haven't figured out exactly what that was for. |
| 06:40 |
TriBlade9 |
And if we were to do that, why not just use the old additions instead of adding an extra setting? (Just aligned to the old default) |
| 06:40 |
Zeno` |
static const float light_amount[4] = { pow(0.75, 1.0/ao_gamma), ... |
| 06:42 |
Zeno` |
worth a shot or not? |
| 06:42 |
TriBlade9 |
Meh, I think not |
| 06:42 |
TriBlade9 |
It's not likely a setting that would be frequently modified, except by game authors. |
| 06:43 |
TriBlade9 |
Or crazy people like me who like it darker. |
| 06:44 |
Zeno` |
heh |
| 06:45 |
TriBlade9 |
Why are we so worried about keeping it exactly the same as the defaults anyway? It's not like people really notice AO actively. |
| 06:46 |
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| 06:46 |
TriBlade9 |
Just get it unoticably close. |
| 06:46 |
TriBlade9 |
nine decimal places is a *bit* excessive |
| 06:46 |
Zeno` |
well I just tested it and it looks better :P~~~~~ |
| 06:47 |
TriBlade9 |
Tested what, your pow system? |
| 06:47 |
TriBlade9 |
I'll try that in a bit, kinda trying to do a million things at once here |
| 06:47 |
Zeno` |
http://dpaste.com/108ZAQG |
| 06:48 |
Zeno` |
a value of 2.2 for ambient_occlusion_strength is same as before |
| 06:48 |
Zeno` |
0.75 is much darker |
| 06:48 |
Zeno` |
> 2.2 is lighter |
| 06:48 |
Zeno` |
obviously the variable/setting name is incorrect now |
| 06:49 |
TriBlade9 |
Wait, why is it incorrect? |
| 06:49 |
TriBlade9 |
Oh, that's the ratio? |
| 06:49 |
TriBlade9 |
Good idea actually |
| 06:50 |
TriBlade9 |
Something about minetest always makes me type ./bine/minetest on the first try. I never do that with any other 'bin' directory. |
| 06:50 |
TriBlade9 |
Every damn time. >_> |
| 06:50 |
Zeno` |
It's a pity the 4th value in the array is always 0 |
| 06:51 |
TriBlade9 |
Yeah, what exactly is that for anyways? |
| 06:51 |
TriBlade9 |
I changed it a few times and nothing happened |
| 06:51 |
Zeno` |
I think I looked at that once before |
| 06:51 |
Zeno` |
and it can never be used |
| 06:51 |
Zeno` |
so it's useless |
| 06:51 |
TriBlade9 |
Alright, your system seems to be good |
| 06:52 |
Zeno` |
ambient_occlusion -= 5; gives a range of 0-3 IIRC |
| 06:52 |
Zeno` |
so the 0 being there is just confusing |
| 06:52 |
TriBlade9 |
Just removed it, no errors |
| 06:53 |
TriBlade9 |
So, do we need to normalize 2.2 to 1? Or are we good there? |
| 06:53 |
Zeno` |
I would make the default 2.2 |
| 06:54 |
TriBlade9 |
Alright, in that case I think we're done |
| 06:54 |
Zeno` |
i.e. ambient_occlusion_gamma = 2.2 |
| 06:54 |
TriBlade9 |
Commit? |
| 06:54 |
TriBlade9 |
I think ambient_occlusion_strength still counts |
| 06:54 |
Zeno` |
ok, commit and let's see where things are :) |
| 06:54 |
TriBlade9 |
Okey |
| 06:55 |
TriBlade9 |
Sorry it takes so long to push, my connection to Github often times out :/ |
| 06:56 |
Zeno` |
heh |
| 06:56 |
Zeno` |
it's not as if there is a rush :P |
| 06:56 |
TriBlade9 |
I gotta go in roughly eh |
| 06:56 |
TriBlade9 |
four minutes? |
| 06:56 |
TriBlade9 |
Pushed |
| 06:58 |
Zeno` |
minetest.conf.example needs updating |
| 06:58 |
TriBlade9 |
Orite. Forgot that the last few commits |
| 06:58 |
Zeno` |
Other than that I'm good with it |
| 06:58 |
TriBlade9 |
Should we rename it to *_gamma or not? |
| 06:58 |
Zeno` |
I dunno. I would |
| 06:59 |
Zeno` |
Most gamers know what gamma is (in a general kind of way) |
| 06:59 |
TriBlade9 |
alright, one last commit then |
| 07:00 |
Zeno` |
bb in 5 |
| 07:04 |
TriBlade9 |
Zeno`, pushed again x] |
| 07:04 |
TriBlade9 |
Gotta head out now, bye |
| 07:04 |
TriBlade9 |
Thanks for reviewing everything |
| 07:04 |
Zeno` |
ok |
| 07:04 |
Zeno` |
Can you merge to master? |
| 07:04 |
ShadowNinja |
IMHO absolute values would be better than values relative to the current values, if you're still doing that. |
| 07:04 |
TriBlade9 |
Huh Zeno`? |
| 07:04 |
Zeno` |
ShadowNinja, nah it's using gamma now |
| 07:05 |
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| 07:05 |
Zeno` |
i.e. the actual formula |
| 07:05 |
TriBlade9 |
I shoulda thought of that first -_- |
| 07:05 |
Zeno` |
Anyway, I'm ok with it. Thanks TriBlade9 :) |
| 07:05 |
TriBlade9 |
Wasn't sure quite what it was |
| 07:05 |
TriBlade9 |
Np |
| 07:05 |
ShadowNinja |
(Because then it's relative to some random value if the defaults ever change.) |
| 07:05 |
TriBlade9 |
What do you mean by merge to master? |
| 07:05 |
Zeno` |
to the official repo |
| 07:05 |
TriBlade9 |
Oh, I can't do that. |
| 07:05 |
Zeno` |
you're listed as a core dev :P |
| 07:06 |
TriBlade9 |
Wat? |
| 07:06 |
TriBlade9 |
Since when? |
| 07:06 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: So, absolute? |
| 07:06 |
Zeno` |
I dunno |
| 07:06 |
TriBlade9 |
wtf |
| 07:06 |
Zeno` |
ShadowNinja, what do you mean? |
| 07:06 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: Huh? You sure? |
| 07:06 |
TriBlade9 |
Nope, I don't have write access. I think I just got added to the credits somewhere by accident. |
| 07:06 |
Zeno` |
oh "Active Contributor". My mistake |
| 07:07 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: Eg, not foo = 3.14159 * setting("relative_val"); |
| 07:07 |
Zeno` |
ShadowNinja, nah, it doesn't do it that way now |
| 07:07 |
TriBlade9 |
ShadowNinja, now it's relative to the light table settings |
| 07:07 |
Zeno` |
powf(0.75, 1.0 / ao_gamma), .... |
| 07:07 |
TriBlade9 |
sorry, worded that totally wrong |
| 07:07 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: Alright. Good. |
| 07:07 |
TriBlade9 |
*gamma settings |
| 07:08 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: Er, that's relative to 0.75... |
| 07:08 |
TriBlade9 |
Okay bye, gonna be late. |
| 07:08 |
Zeno` |
yes it is. What's the alternative? |
| 07:09 |
TriBlade9 |
When you figure out what's what, post a comment on the PR please. xD |
| 07:09 |
TriBlade9 |
Keep in mind it was hardcoded defaults as it was |
| 07:09 |
Zeno` |
there is a non-linear relationship between the values of 0.75. 0.5, 0.25 |
| 07:09 |
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| 07:10 |
* ShadowNinja |
will look closer tomorrow. |
| 07:10 |
paramat |
Zeno` > "incorporate ao_strength to the *base* values of 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0 ?" just occured to me that seems better |
| 07:11 |
paramat |
scale those 4 linearly |
| 07:11 |
Zeno` |
those 4 do, but the results don't |
| 07:12 |
Zeno` |
i.e. after gamma is applied the resulting light_amounts are non-linear (unless ao_gamma is 1.0) |
| 07:12 |
paramat |
ah. i think we need RBA's input on this |
| 07:12 |
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| 07:13 |
paramat |
.. how to adjust AOS while keeping those 4 values correctly relatively proportioned |
| 07:16 |
Zeno` |
linear light looks awful. That's why the original hard coded values had a gamma of 2.2 manually applied |
| 07:16 |
Zeno` |
manually calculated* |
| 07:16 |
Zeno` |
not sure why they were manually calculated though |
| 07:17 |
Zeno` |
maybe in the distant past light_amount was not static const |
| 07:17 |
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| 07:20 |
Zeno` |
what is AOS, btw? |
| 07:20 |
paramat |
ambient occlusion strength |
| 07:20 |
Zeno` |
oh ok |
| 07:23 |
Zeno` |
well this does that. If you look at the values generated by a "gamma" of 2.2 they are the same as they originally were |
| 07:23 |
Zeno` |
http://codepad.org/Y4FhRvWz |
| 07:25 |
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| 07:28 |
Zeno` |
And as you can see (http://codepad.org/N1B7lYqS) the results are not linear... the whole point of gamma :) |
| 07:32 |
Zeno` |
gosh. Are there enough PRs and open issues? |
| 07:46 |
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| 09:51 |
rubenwardy |
Does anyone have access to the forum.minetest.net server? I'd like to get the error that MMDB is causing, but thexyz seems to be AWOL |
| 09:58 |
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| 10:15 |
kilbith |
kahrl, here ? |
| 10:18 |
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| 11:00 |
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| 11:15 |
jin_xi |
so reading logs and all. lol shit. hmmmmm pls do test your stuff and listen to reporters. more often than not its bugs in the engine. |
| 11:25 |
gregorycu |
Easy does it my good man |
| 11:25 |
gregorycu |
We all make mistakes |
| 11:26 |
gregorycu |
Like me, just than |
| 11:26 |
gregorycu |
I performed two optimisations, and it seemed to be worse |
| 11:26 |
gregorycu |
I had accidentially inverted the definition of the metric I was using |
| 11:29 |
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| 11:46 |
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| 11:47 |
TriBlade9 |
Has anyone tried skinning Minetest/IGUI before? I know it has been suggested, but has anyone attempted it? |
| 11:50 |
kilbith |
TriBlade9, yes : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1832 |
| 11:50 |
TriBlade9 |
Ah alright. I was gonna look into it. |
| 11:50 |
TriBlade9 |
(Sorry, GitHub isn't loading at the moment) |
| 11:57 |
TriBlade9 |
kilbith, So did you retheme the irrlicht GUI or modify the formspec? Or what? |
| 12:01 |
sfan5 |
TriBlade9: http://i.imgur.com/uut4q5A.png |
| 12:01 |
sfan5 |
(this is the mediacrush thing linked in the pull) |
| 12:01 |
TriBlade9 |
One sec, firing up proxy :P |
| 12:01 |
sfan5 |
china blocks imgur too? |
| 12:01 |
TriBlade9 |
Hell yea |
| 12:01 |
TriBlade9 |
They block pretty much everything |
| 12:02 |
TriBlade9 |
Okay, it looks like there's just a background image on the formspec then? |
| 12:02 |
sfan5 |
also: mediacrush blocks china not the other way around |
| 12:02 |
TriBlade9 |
Oh. Weird indeed |
| 12:02 |
sfan5 |
yep just background images |
| 12:02 |
TriBlade9 |
Mediacrush used to work for us |
| 12:02 |
kilbith |
TriBlade9, just applied a background image to the formspec |
| 12:03 |
TriBlade9 |
Huh okay, I was thinking of actually writing a new theme, subclassing IGUITheme |
| 12:03 |
sfan5 |
well... greatfire.org says that mediacrush is not blocked completly |
| 12:03 |
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| 12:03 |
TriBlade9 |
Or implementing, or whatever |
| 12:03 |
sfan5 |
a real GUI theme would be great |
| 12:03 |
TriBlade9 |
It's definately possible, but I'm not the ideal person to do it. (Suck at C++ and design) |
| 12:04 |
kilbith |
sfan5, can i close that PR btw ? |
| 12:04 |
sfan5 |
kilbith: why? |
| 12:04 |
TriBlade9 |
A interesting halfway-point would be to use environment->loadGUI to load a set of custom colors and sizes from an XML file, but that seems to have some issues with making the buttons unclickable for some reason. |
| 12:05 |
kilbith |
sfan5: will not be merged, too "static". |
| 12:05 |
sfan5 |
oic |
| 12:05 |
sfan5 |
feel free to close it then |
| 12:05 |
kilbith |
ok |
| 12:06 |
TriBlade9 |
WTH would a proper theme for MT look like anyhow? |
| 12:07 |
TriBlade9 |
The current graydients (cwutididther) are just no. |
| 12:07 |
TriBlade9 |
Someone had a forum post on this awhile back... lemme dig it up. |
| 12:09 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
talking about this : https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10330 ? |
| 12:09 |
TriBlade9 |
Darned ninjas and their fast internet. ;_; |
| 12:10 |
TriBlade9 |
Probably, page hasn't loaded yet. |
| 12:10 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
200ko/sec I don't call that fast :P |
| 12:11 |
TriBlade9 |
Yep, that is indeed what I am referring to. Not sure I can pull it off quite that nicely though. |
| 12:11 |
TriBlade9 |
Pfft |
| 12:11 |
TriBlade9 |
I'm somewhere around 2kb/s right now. |
| 12:12 |
TriBlade9 |
Morning speeds are more like 700kb/s, after about 11:00 AM it plummets. |
| 12:12 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
glad to hear I don't hve the worst broadband on earth |
| 12:13 |
TriBlade9 |
I *shouldn't* either, but everything in my 8-building apartment complex goes through one line -_- |
| 12:15 |
TriBlade9 |
Anyways, I'm probably gonna get off for now, get back on this tomorrow. |
| 12:15 |
TriBlade9 |
See y'all! |
| 12:16 |
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| 12:58 |
Zeno` |
will merge 2112 |
| 12:59 |
Zeno` |
#2112 |
| 12:59 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2112 -- Added configurable ambient_occlusion_gamma. Default is 2.2 (same as before) by TriBlade9 |
| 13:10 |
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| 13:23 |
Zeno` |
paramat I know how gamma works mathematically :/ |
| 13:24 |
Zeno` |
The 4th value can be removed because after ambient_occlusion -= 5; the only values ambient_occlusion can possibly be are 0, 1 or 2 |
| 13:25 |
Zeno` |
because of the loop on line 248 |
| 13:25 |
Zeno` |
the max value of ambient_occlusion is 7 |
| 13:25 |
Zeno` |
and 7-5 is... 2 |
| 13:25 |
Zeno` |
this is not something RBA needs to comment on |
| 13:28 |
Zeno` |
you can be an "expert" on this as well. It's just plain logic |
| 13:39 |
Zeno` |
sheesh, not everything needs to be a debate :/ |
| 13:39 |
Zeno` |
If something is correct, it's correct |
| 14:16 |
NrzMT629253 |
Hey, i do a massive rework on packet handling (reading at this time), can new heads review it ? |
| 14:16 |
NrzMT629253 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2119 |
| 14:17 |
kilbith |
you should change your nick to 'nerzhul' |
| 14:17 |
Zeno` |
#2054 looks fine to me |
| 14:17 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2054 -- Reorganizing client and settings tabs by kilbith2 |
| 14:18 |
NrzMT629253 |
i should but someone already has this pseudo elsewhere :) |
| 14:18 |
Zeno` |
NrzMT629253, I like it |
| 14:20 |
NrzMT629253 |
At this time i rework many packet handlers but i don't work on somes (_init handlers for example). |
| 14:24 |
Zeno` |
NrzMT629253, I'm ok with merging it but it needs more testing first |
| 14:25 |
Zeno` |
(good work from what I can see, by the way) |
| 14:25 |
NrzMT629253 |
we could improve it before merge if you see some errors |
| 14:25 |
NrzMT629253 |
but i tested each interaction and i don't see any problem. Now someone else must test i think |
| 14:25 |
Zeno` |
I cannot see any obvious errors (I've been watching this since you first made the pull request) |
| 14:27 |
Zeno` |
I will vote yes to merge it |
| 14:28 |
NrzMT629253 |
i think there are more thing to improve, like protocol evolutions |
| 14:29 |
NrzMT629253 |
but i think it's another pull |
| 14:33 |
Zeno` |
yeah. I'm ok with all this, but PRs of this size will require testing by more than just me |
| 14:33 |
NrzMT629253 |
of course ! |
| 14:41 |
NrzMT629253 |
are there any other things to rework on minetest ? because i saw that my server uses 100% CPU sometimes whereas nothing special happens. 3 year ago i got a WoW server with 300 players and the server didn't consume so many CPU |
| 14:44 |
NrzMT629253 |
i think two threads for server is too few, and i'll at minetest architecture and find where we must add one thread to improve performance, or resolve the bottleneck |
| 14:51 |
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| 15:06 |
Zeno` |
We need to release 0.4.12 |
| 15:06 |
Zeno` |
some of the bugs fixed since 0.4.11 are quite serious |
| 15:06 |
Zeno` |
at the same time we should fix the version numbering |
| 15:06 |
Zeno` |
kahrl? |
| 15:10 |
NrzMT629253 |
what do you think about https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2116 |
| 15:10 |
NrzMT629253 |
i do some shader mathematic optimizations |
| 15:11 |
Zeno` |
without reviewing it in detail I think it's great |
| 15:11 |
Zeno` |
just remember that minetest is compiled with -fast-math |
| 15:13 |
NrzMT629253 |
okay |
| 15:13 |
Zeno` |
so although floating point is not communicative (i.e. 3.1 * 1.4 is not necessarily the same as 1.4 * 3.1, -fast-math assumes that the expression can be re-arranged) |
| 15:13 |
Zeno` |
but yeah, it looks good |
| 15:14 |
Zeno` |
I think the network stuff should be merged soon |
| 15:14 |
Zeno` |
I'm interested to hear what other core devs think |
| 15:15 |
NrzMT629253 |
oh, that's cool |
| 15:15 |
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| 15:15 |
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| 15:16 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, what are your thoughts on #2119? |
| 15:16 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2119 -- Rewrite client/server packet handling by nerzhul |
| 15:20 |
hmmmm |
when i see 'rewrite' i never feel good about it |
| 15:20 |
Zeno` |
yes, but put aside that feeling for a moment :P |
| 15:22 |
hmmmm |
what's with enet? |
| 15:22 |
hmmmm |
i don't get it, does this mean sapier admits defeat?? |
| 15:22 |
NrzMT629253 |
we are not into the same side |
| 15:22 |
NrzMT629253 |
enet = socket |
| 15:22 |
NrzMT629253 |
i'm on layer 7 |
| 15:23 |
NrzMT629253 |
packet content |
| 15:25 |
hmmmm |
i don't really know what to say since it's liks 28 separate commits.. |
| 15:26 |
Zeno` |
without gathering metrics this should hypothetically increase performance at least |
| 15:26 |
hmmmm |
it looks more like a style commit. i didn't see anything that would improve performance exactly |
| 15:26 |
NrzMT629253 |
In fact i do separate commit because it's a big difference. This permit to understand the coding path i follow and to follow the code modifications if there are errors |
| 15:26 |
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| 15:27 |
NrzMT629253 |
in fact packet opcode was tested like this at this time: |
| 15:27 |
NrzMT629253 |
if (opcode = 1) DO |
| 15:27 |
NrzMT629253 |
if opcode = 2 DO other |
| 15:27 |
NrzMT629253 |
... |
| 15:27 |
NrzMT629253 |
else UNK |
| 15:27 |
NrzMT629253 |
it's UGLY |
| 15:27 |
hmmmm |
NrzMT629253, use the enter button less please... |
| 15:30 |
NrzMT629253 |
sorry, i do one thing but pidgin splitted it :). Then, instead of doing 40 tests, the opcode permit to find a function pointer to handle the packet. Second: i introduce NetworkPacket, a interface to read packet easily and centralized. At this time packets are decoded... like time said, buffers, streams... There it's an object to read. At the end, (not useful into this PR), we can write the packet by this interfac |
| 15:42 |
Zeno` |
It's not really a style commit |
| 15:42 |
Zeno` |
Although it is easier to read (for me) heh |
| 15:43 |
Zeno` |
calling a function pointer in lieu of 20-50 if/else is always going to be quicker |
| 15:44 |
Zeno` |
anyway kind of related... |
| 15:45 |
Zeno` |
<Zeno`> We need to release 0.4.12 |
| 15:45 |
Zeno` |
<Zeno`> some of the bugs fixed since 0.4.11 are quite serious |
| 15:45 |
Zeno` |
<Zeno`> at the same time we should fix the version numbering |
| 15:45 |
Zeno` |
and this needs to be done *now*, IMO |
| 15:45 |
VanessaE |
+1 for that. |
| 15:45 |
Zeno` |
once that's done we can merger NrzMT629253's changes with less "stress" |
| 15:46 |
Zeno` |
but that's just a side effect |
| 15:46 |
Zeno` |
so, let's get a version number ready and just fucking do it |
| 15:47 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
omg is this even real :) |
| 15:48 |
Zeno` |
yeah, it's real. It needs to be done |
| 15:48 |
Zeno` |
because at the moment there is no "clean" way to backport critical bug fixes to "stable" |
| 15:49 |
Zeno` |
So, my suggestion is ... release 1.0.0 (sorry, hmmm, I think 5.0.0 is dumb) |
| 15:50 |
VanessaE |
5.x was kinda my idea :P to avoid confusing users who keep calling it 4.x |
| 15:50 |
Zeno` |
ok, well it's dumb whoever suggested it (IMO) :D |
| 15:50 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
yeah but the engine is mature enough to shine under 1.0.0 |
| 15:50 |
Zeno` |
1.0.0 is more logical |
| 15:51 |
kilbith |
5.x is a bit intimidating and precocious... |
| 15:51 |
VanessaE |
I think 1.0 will look to users like an older version |
| 15:51 |
Zeno` |
I don't think it will |
| 15:51 |
Zeno` |
although I suppose there are a lot of idiots in the world |
| 15:52 |
Zeno` |
:) |
| 15:52 |
VanessaE |
well go with whatever, just have fun convincing people that "1.0" is newer than "4.x" :-) |
| 15:52 |
Zeno` |
5.0.0 is too much of a leap imo :( |
| 15:52 |
sfan5 |
^ ack |
| 15:52 |
Zeno` |
there is no 4.x? |
| 15:52 |
VanessaE |
Zeno`: yes there is. |
| 15:52 |
Zeno` |
release it as 1.4.12 then |
| 15:52 |
Zeno` |
the 0 is the only real problem |
| 15:53 |
VanessaE |
there IS a 4.x in the mind of every idiot user who leaves off the leading zero |
| 15:53 |
VanessaE |
which seems to be about half our userbase :P |
| 15:53 |
VanessaE |
to the users, 1.4.x would look the same as 1.0.x |
| 15:53 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
by going 50 we'll be stuck forever with wrong numbering |
| 15:54 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
*5.0 |
| 15:54 |
VanessaE |
you have to compare apparent first-digits |
| 15:54 |
Zeno` |
people are really that stupid? |
| 15:54 |
VanessaE |
yes, they are. |
| 15:54 |
VanessaE |
sadly. |
| 15:54 |
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| 15:55 |
VanessaE |
I have lost count of the number of times I've had to correct people on it. |
| 15:55 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
well let's enlighten the common rable with correct versioning :D |
| 15:55 |
Zeno` |
meh. I just can't "sit comfortably" with going from 0.x.x to 5.x.x |
| 15:55 |
Zeno` |
it's just not british! |
| 15:56 |
VanessaE |
hah |
| 15:56 |
Zeno` |
a true scotsman would not do that either |
| 15:56 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
there it goes |
| 15:56 |
VanessaE |
are you saying it's also un-American? :P |
| 15:56 |
Zeno` |
yep |
| 15:56 |
Zeno` |
no true american patriot would do it |
| 15:57 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
Coming from Belgium I.dont.care |
| 15:57 |
VanessaE |
good. then it's settled. 5.0.0 it is ;) |
| 15:57 |
Zeno` |
no no! |
| 15:57 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 15:57 |
Zeno` |
1.0.0 |
| 15:57 |
VanessaE |
lol |
| 15:57 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
tricky |
| 15:57 |
VanessaE |
5! |
| 15:57 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
fatality ! |
| 15:57 |
NrzMT629253 |
0.X.Y is pretty well because game is currently under heavy devel |
| 15:58 |
Zeno` |
I come from a long line of idiots and even I can understand that 1.0.0 is better than 0.4.x |
| 15:58 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
The game is more an engine |
| 15:58 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
and it has already a lot of features |
| 15:58 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
one day you have to relase your 1.0 |
| 15:59 |
* Zeno` |
releases the hounds |
| 15:59 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
besides 0.4->5.0 would be like windows going from 8->10. |
| 15:59 |
VanessaE |
most recent leave-off-the-zero mistake I saw was just last night over in #minetest |
| 15:59 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
Bad bad bad |
| 16:00 |
shadowzone |
Yeah, let's not follow Microsoft. |
| 16:00 |
VanessaE |
SudoAptGetPlay: except it's going to do exactly that, and that's to cater to bad CODERS yet :P |
| 16:00 |
shadowzone |
Nothing goes right if you do. |
| 16:00 |
NrzMT629253 |
follow linux |
| 16:00 |
NrzMT629253 |
after 2.6.39 choose 3.0 |
| 16:00 |
shadowzone |
Yesh! |
| 16:00 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
Isn't there any posix about versioning ? |
| 16:00 |
Zeno` |
but after 0.4.11 we release 5.0.0? |
| 16:01 |
VanessaE |
SudoAptGetPlay: Semantic Versioning |
| 16:01 |
NrzMT629253 |
0.4.X branch must be stable |
| 16:01 |
VanessaE |
which I guess is the plan once we work out the starting version number |
| 16:01 |
Zeno` |
won't people then call it 0.0? :P |
| 16:01 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
so we keep old relases as stable |
| 16:01 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
? |
| 16:01 |
VanessaE |
Zeno`: not if they see a big number at the start |
| 16:02 |
NrzMT629253 |
if it's bugfix only, let it to 0.4.X but when the next major feature release come, change it to 1.X, 5.X or 0.15.X |
| 16:02 |
VanessaE |
mentally, they read it like a decimal number |
| 16:02 |
Zeno` |
NrzMT629253, that's the idea behind semantic versioning |
| 16:02 |
Zeno` |
but... we have to have a starting point heh |
| 16:02 |
VanessaE |
or rather, like decimal both ways or something |
| 16:03 |
NrzMT629253 |
one free software choose pi decimals for versioning |
| 16:03 |
T4im |
typical decorative 0 problems ;) VanessaE has a point… this is not a library but a end-user program and those, even if non-commerical (firefox for example) do jump without anyone having problems… |
| 16:04 |
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| 16:06 |
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rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:06 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
imo 1.40.12 is the best compromise. It can be the bridge between the 0.xx and the 1.xx era :) |
| 16:06 |
rubenwardy |
Just read IRC log. This is my opinion: "You could release a news article saying that the 0. is going to be discarded. From there you use semantic versioning. In a rather Ministry of Truth way, you could refer to older versions as say 4.11, 4.10, 4.9" |
| 16:06 |
rubenwardy |
Thus, 5.0.0 |
| 16:06 |
NrzMT629253 |
i think SudoAptGetPlay is a good idea too, but not for 0.14.12 |
| 16:06 |
NrzMT629253 |
we need a 0.15 to mark a rupture |
| 16:06 |
VanessaE |
rubenwardy: which is exactly my thought, minus the Orwellian reference |
| 16:06 |
rubenwardy |
Although I also like 1.4.12, except for the patch thing. Maybe API.MAJOR.MINOR.PATCH, but nah |
| 16:06 |
rubenwardy |
Lol |
| 16:07 |
rubenwardy |
Also, releasing 1.0 would make users think it is a complete game, rather than just discarding the 0. |
| 16:07 |
rubenwardy |
But, that isn't important |
| 16:08 |
rubenwardy |
We should start doing patches to latest stable but only if it doesn't take time away from devs which could be spent on improvements |
| 16:09 |
rubenwardy |
If you do it right, it won't, as you'd only release patches on major bugs that disrupt game play. |
| 16:09 |
rubenwardy |
gtg. I will check the log. Will be back online in an hour. |
| 16:13 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
Butwhy backport ? can't we just release a 'revision' when a fix is important enough. Something like 1.5.1 (an implement a launcher with auto update lololol) |
| 16:14 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
nevermind just realised stupid idea |
| 16:17 |
Zeno` |
well whatever the numbers are there needs to be a new release |
| 16:17 |
Zeno` |
mainly because the bugs fixed since 0.4.11 are not exactly "minor" |
| 16:18 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
won't that be the fastest relase ever ? |
| 16:18 |
Zeno` |
yep |
| 16:19 |
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Calinou joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:19 |
Zeno` |
nothing wrong with that though I don't think |
| 16:19 |
NrzMT629253 |
it's bugs |
| 16:19 |
NrzMT629253 |
then 0.4.12 is legitimate |
| 16:19 |
NrzMT629253 |
no new feature in this package ? |
| 16:20 |
Zeno` |
the bugs fixed (although maybe uncommon) kinda nasty |
| 16:20 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
Could be fun if Michael Larabel from phoronix rewrites an article about a minetest release 3 weeks after a previous one :D |
| 16:20 |
Zeno` |
e.g. being able to crash another user's client |
| 16:21 |
NrzMT629253 |
Firefox release 6 weeks after a previous one |
| 16:21 |
Zeno` |
and the mapgen random data thing |
| 16:21 |
Calinou |
we're not Firefox though :/ |
| 16:21 |
Calinou |
we don't have as many people for release engineering |
| 16:21 |
NrzMT629253 |
no but if a huge project like firefox do it, do a bugfix 3 weeks after precedent release is not so huge |
| 16:21 |
Zeno` |
kahrl asked me if it was worth another release after the "able to crash another user" issue |
| 16:22 |
Zeno` |
I said no at that time |
| 16:22 |
Calinou |
bugfix releases annoy everyone :/ |
| 16:22 |
Calinou |
we have daily builds, if someone wants to use more recent stuff |
| 16:22 |
Zeno` |
but these other bugs have changed my mind |
| 16:22 |
VanessaE |
then let's just get a new release out already. |
| 16:22 |
Zeno` |
Calinou, the problem is that server operators might expect stable to be... stable |
| 16:22 |
Zeno` |
yes, let's get it out |
| 16:23 |
Calinou |
we can also release more often, that's good for community, but not much for modders |
| 16:23 |
Zeno` |
there is nothing to lose in releasing a new version now. Is there? |
| 16:23 |
VanessaE |
Zeno`: no |
| 16:23 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
I don't see one |
| 16:23 |
Calinou |
time |
| 16:23 |
NrzMT629253 |
you can release fast, if API doesn't change |
| 16:24 |
VanessaE |
time is fungible. what can't be done now (in lieu of making a release) can be done later. |
| 16:24 |
Calinou |
changelog needs to be updated :/ |
| 16:24 |
Zeno` |
Time? |
| 16:25 |
Zeno` |
In hindsight the timing of 0.4.11 was bad. Most people were not as active as they normally are. It was Christmas. |
| 16:26 |
Zeno` |
Although, I dunno if these bugs would have been discovered straight away no matter the time of release |
| 16:27 |
Zeno` |
At any rate there is nothing to lose and a lot to gain in making a new release (IMO) |
| 16:27 |
Calinou |
it makes PR |
| 16:27 |
Calinou |
so that's good |
| 16:27 |
Calinou |
go ahead, release |
| 16:28 |
Zeno` |
Calinou, change long updates are not a huge undertaking right now are they? |
| 16:28 |
Zeno` |
s/long/log |
| 16:28 |
Calinou |
the changelog probably will be short anyway |
| 16:28 |
Zeno` |
ok, I vote for a new release |
| 16:28 |
Zeno` |
yes, it should be short (the changelog) |
| 16:29 |
NrzMT629253 |
short changelog bug huge bug fixed = good changelog :) |
| 16:29 |
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| 16:29 |
Zeno` |
geez, it's 2:30AM |
| 16:30 |
Zeno` |
umm, how do we initiate a new release? lol |
| 16:31 |
Zeno` |
I know. Let's get hmmmm to do it. |
| 16:31 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, you have a job. Jump to it! |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
http://dev.minetest.net/Releasing_Minetest |
| 16:31 |
Zeno` |
ShadowNinja, sfan5 |
| 16:32 |
Zeno` |
I'll help as well if I can. Just tell me what to do |
| 16:32 |
shadowzone |
And I'm more than willing to learn and help. |
| 16:43 |
hmmmm |
lol. |
| 16:43 |
hmmmm |
we are not releasing a new version of minetest |
| 16:43 |
VanessaE |
wat |
| 16:44 |
hmmmm |
whose idea was this all of a sudden |
| 16:44 |
hmmmm |
we just release 0.4.11 and now there's "we need to release 0.4.12" |
| 16:45 |
VanessaE |
um.. 0.4.11 is horribly crashy and has this garbage mapblock issue, that's not enough to issue a bugfix release? |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
please don't do things in haste and behind everybody elses' back |
| 16:45 |
hmmmm |
the garbage mapblock issue we have no indication of being solved for one, two if we are to believe what the root cause of it was then it wasn't in 0.4.11 |
| 16:46 |
VanessaE |
ok. |
| 16:47 |
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| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
oh nice. it seems i'm wrong, it was shoved in at the last minute before release |
| 16:48 |
jin_xi |
i have not seen any garbage since the fix |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
thanks for making an ass of yourself at my expense, hmmmm. |
| 16:48 |
hmmmm |
ass? |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
hrm, wrong arrangement of words |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
you get the point. |
| 16:49 |
hmmmm |
the one who made an ass of themselves is the one who shoved in an "optimization" at the last minute |
| 16:49 |
hmmmm |
this was a horrible idea in hindsight but at the time, what is it we were thinking? |
| 16:50 |
VanessaE |
I don't know who that was, but it doesn't matter now. what matters is it seems to be fixed. and if it is, between that and the facedir > 23 crash, that's adequate reason for a bugfix release. |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
but who decided on "0.4.12" |
| 16:50 |
VanessaE |
not me. |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
i can understand the logic behind it though |
| 16:50 |
hmmmm |
the 1.0.0 version will need to be... something bigger |
| 16:51 |
T4im |
would we expect the issue to reoccur on a newly generated world with the same seed and config after the database was deleted? i.e. could this be used as a direct test if the fix worked? |
| 16:53 |
VanessaE |
T4im: newly-generated terrain, seed doesn't matter, and apparently only if you're spawning L-system trees, and then it was intermittent. |
| 16:54 |
jin_xi |
its not only ltrees but also lvmanips |
| 16:55 |
VanessaE |
even that? I thought that was ruled out? |
| 16:55 |
jin_xi |
well its fixed now |
| 16:56 |
hmmmm |
theoretically it could've been anything |
| 16:58 |
NrzMT629253 |
what is the rule for braces in code ? PHP like or c++ like ? |
| 16:58 |
hmmmm |
linux kernel style like |
| 16:58 |
Calinou |
http://dev.minetest.net/Code_style_guidelines |
| 16:58 |
NrzMT629253 |
because i see multiples styles but dev guidelines talk about functions |
| 16:58 |
NrzMT629253 |
and i see a different style in function |
| 16:59 |
NrzMT629253 |
ok i see |
| 16:59 |
NrzMT629253 |
thanks |
| 17:02 |
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| 17:08 |
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proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:15 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, why not make a release? |
| 17:16 |
Zeno` |
forget the version numbering |
| 17:16 |
Zeno` |
I think a release is necessary |
| 17:18 |
Zeno` |
<hmmmm> the one who made an ass of themselves is the one who shoved in an "optimization" at the last minute |
| 17:18 |
Zeno` |
and wtf does that mean? |
| 17:21 |
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| 17:23 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm? |
| 17:25 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, if you don't think a release is necessary then I think that you're not being responsible (sorry) |
| 17:26 |
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| 17:29 |
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| 17:30 |
Zeno` |
<hmmmm> the one who made an ass of themselves is the one who shoved in an "optimization" at the last minute <--- seriously I want to know what you meant by that, hmmmm |
| 17:31 |
Zeno` |
because if you're referring to my optimisation then revert it. And the bug was still there! (before being fixed today) |
| 17:34 |
Zeno` |
shit I hate people making stuff up |
| 17:34 |
Zeno` |
"diversion tactics" |
| 17:34 |
Zeno` |
they fucking annoy me |
| 17:34 |
Zeno` |
If it *was* my fault then I'd have been the first to admit it :/ |
| 17:35 |
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cg72 joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:35 |
Zeno` |
Anyway, back to the release. We have an obligation to our users to make a new release |
| 17:36 |
Zeno` |
Leaving 0.4.11 as the current stable is not responsible |
| 17:36 |
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| 17:36 |
hmmmm |
hold on a minute |
| 17:37 |
hmmmm |
so the mapblock initialization wasn't the bug? |
| 17:37 |
hmmmm |
how did this pop up lately all of a sudden |
| 17:37 |
Zeno` |
umm, yes it was. But when was that committed? |
| 17:37 |
hmmmm |
right before 0.4.11's release |
| 17:37 |
Zeno` |
where? |
| 17:38 |
Krock |
is there a huge issue in 0.4.11? |
| 17:38 |
VanessaE |
Krock: there is. |
| 17:38 |
Zeno` |
Krock, basically there are 2 big issues |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/8621e6de5dc031b547739ab3ff8dc1575a284d1b |
| 17:38 |
Krock |
eww. not good |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
is that commit not the cause of the bug? |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
because I'm genuinely confused right now |
| 17:38 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, no it's not |
| 17:38 |
Zeno` |
has that commit been reverted? |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
no |
| 17:39 |
Krock |
oh right, VanessaE, is it about the mysterious random blocks? |
| 17:39 |
Zeno` |
so it exposed a bug somewhere else |
| 17:39 |
VanessaE |
Krock: yes. |
| 17:39 |
|
crazyR joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:39 |
hmmmm |
the whole time tracking it down we were assuming the VoxelManipulator::addArea mapnode initialization was the core problem |
| 17:39 |
Krock |
what a luck I didn't upgrade my server to 0.4.11 yet :) |
| 17:40 |
Zeno` |
this doesn't matter. Whatever the cause of the bug doesn't matter |
| 17:40 |
Zeno` |
the fact is that the bug is there in 0.4.11 |
| 17:40 |
hmmmm |
how do you KNOW that |
| 17:40 |
hmmmm |
if we can't tie it to a particular commit, then how can you possibly say that |
| 17:40 |
Krock |
the commit which hmmmm ponted to does not fill anything with random stuff so it's not a bad commit |
| 17:41 |
Krock |
*pointed |
| 17:41 |
hmmmm |
what...? |
| 17:41 |
Zeno` |
huh |
| 17:41 |
Zeno` |
because we fixed the bug today? |
| 17:41 |
hmmmm |
the commit I pointed to could easily cause the sort of issue we were talking about |
| 17:41 |
Krock |
..the random blocks? |
| 17:41 |
|
rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:41 |
hmmmm |
the only evidence we have that it wasn't the root cause of the random blocks is some random user's testimony |
| 17:42 |
Zeno` |
what? |
| 17:42 |
hmmmm |
we know from past experience that end users usually mess things up when testing to see if something works or not |
| 17:42 |
Zeno` |
my valgrind data was not significant? |
| 17:42 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: you were the last person to touch that piece of code, fwiw. |
| 17:42 |
hmmmm |
it was but it wasn't the root cause of this problem |
| 17:42 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/2c0b51795e6fa6747d881f1871c89830abb6e6e8 |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
vanesae, am aware. it caused absolutely no random block problems though. |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
look |
| 17:43 |
Zeno` |
it *was* the root cause |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
I don't get it |
| 17:43 |
Krock |
that's long time ago and then nobody got those problems |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
at first, data not existing in a VoxelManipulator starts out as CONTENT_AIR |
| 17:43 |
VanessaE |
just for reference only. |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
zeno removes this initialization and breaks assumptions like the one made in initialEmerge |
| 17:44 |
hmmmm |
L-system trees doesn't write to the entire area emerged, only certain blocks |
| 17:44 |
hmmmm |
it gets blit back to the map as uninitialized data |
| 17:44 |
Zeno` |
ok, why was the else there? |
| 17:44 |
hmmmm |
is there something wrong with this theory? it seems to be corroborated by every piece of evidence so far |
| 17:44 |
Zeno` |
the one removed today |
| 17:45 |
hmmmm |
because of the assumption that the data would be initialized |
| 17:45 |
Zeno` |
how could it be intialised if mapblock == NULL (or whatever the statement was) |
| 17:45 |
hmmmm |
no, the VoxelManipulator m_data |
| 17:46 |
hmmmm |
that's what was assumed to be initialized at the time that code was written that manner |
| 17:46 |
Zeno` |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/57f2fa57cda957be302b3542a59cd51209d46f2d |
| 17:47 |
Zeno` |
why would anybody make that assumption |
| 17:47 |
hmmmm |
if m_data is pre-initialized to something, and the mapblock for that area happens to be NULL, why would you attempt to copy over its blank data? |
| 17:47 |
Zeno` |
anyway this is not about placing blame, surely |
| 17:47 |
hmmmm |
because at the time we were able to make that assumption |
| 17:47 |
hmmmm |
then it got changed |
| 17:47 |
hmmmm |
no, it's about sorting the confusion |
| 17:47 |
Zeno` |
it's about "should a new release be made" |
| 17:47 |
hmmmm |
you just claimed a few minutes ago that your addArea optimization was not the cause of this bug |
| 17:47 |
Zeno` |
it wasn't |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
perhaps not the *root* cause |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
the root cause was making assumptions that probably should've been documented |
| 17:48 |
Zeno` |
correct |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
but the immediate cause |
| 17:49 |
Zeno` |
the immediate cause masked/hid the root cause |
| 17:49 |
Zeno` |
this is not very relevant though |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
it doesn't matter what the root cause was... a release comes up, and 2 days before the big day you add in a seemingly innocuous optimization that interacts with code that's been there not causing problems for over a year |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
this is the problem |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
features aren't the only things prone to being buggy |
| 17:50 |
Zeno` |
look, if I had merged that commit 4 weeks before release it still would not have shown up |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
bull.. lots of people started complaining about it |
| 17:51 |
Zeno` |
it's been a month since 0.4.11 and it's taken this long for it to become an issue! |
| 17:51 |
hmmmm |
that would've been classified as a blocker had it occured before release |
| 17:51 |
Zeno` |
it would not have been noticed |
| 17:51 |
hmmmm |
I had gotten earlier reports |
| 17:51 |
Zeno` |
earlier? |
| 17:52 |
hmmmm |
it's just with absolutely no way to track the problem because lol can't reproduce I wasn't able to do anything |
| 17:52 |
Zeno` |
anyway, the bug was in initialEmerge(). 'nuff said |
| 17:52 |
VanessaE |
can't? /me looks at last night's log again.... |
| 17:53 |
hmmmm |
VanessaE, it took a lot more information to get to that point than I had at first |
| 17:53 |
Zeno` |
I can't look at every single damn line of every single unrelated function |
| 17:54 |
hmmmm |
Zeno`, yeah, but such a thing could cause problems, that's the point |
| 17:54 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: in all fairness, I didn't have much more info than you did. |
| 17:54 |
hmmmm |
you knew it was moretrees |
| 17:54 |
hmmmm |
grrrrr |
| 17:54 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, yeah, but you suggest that every time we make a change we check every single line in the rest of the code? |
| 17:54 |
hmmmm |
BEFORE a major release, I think so |
| 17:55 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: initially I did not know, and it wasn't moretrees, it was just triggered by it. |
| 17:55 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, so you went through every single source line before the release? |
| 17:55 |
hmmmm |
no, on the other hand I didn't add anything that wouldn't have sufficient testing time |
| 17:55 |
Zeno` |
hmmmm, neither did I |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
so we have a > 2 week feature freeze |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
and this shit still happens |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
because 2 week feature freezes don't matter when it gets added 2 days before release |
| 17:56 |
Zeno` |
yes, and if it was a 4 week feature freeze I bet it STILL would have happened |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
the likelyhood goes waaay down |
| 17:56 |
Zeno` |
nope |
| 17:57 |
hmmmm |
ugh whatever |
| 17:57 |
Zeno` |
ffs who cares anyway? |
| 17:57 |
hmmmm |
i'm just glad we're moving toward a sane development and release model |
| 17:57 |
Zeno` |
the bug was in map.cpp. who gives a flying fsck? |
| 17:57 |
hmmmm |
this can't happen in the future |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
do you really want to call this 0.4.12, or 0.4.12-p1? |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
or solaris-style u1 |
| 17:59 |
Zeno` |
it was probably some shitty code written 5 years ago |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
probably u1 |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
0.4.12, update #1 |
| 17:59 |
Zeno` |
I'd really like for the next release to be 1.0.0, but I don't care now |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
0.4.11u1 |
| 17:59 |
VanessaE |
u1? won't that confuse users? |
| 17:59 |
sfan5 |
^ |
| 17:59 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
well I'm confused |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
it's basically 0.4.11, but with an update |
| 18:00 |
Krock |
0.4.11-fix |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
it's way more than a simple fix unless this is backported to 4-stable |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
0.4-stable rather |
| 18:00 |
cg72 |
0.4.11.1!!!!!! |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
in any case |
| 18:00 |
VanessaE |
what's wrong with just calling it 0.4.12 then? |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
what is the other 'major bug' that got fixed? |
| 18:00 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
Increase the version number else playrs wil think it's unimportant and will keep playing with a broken game |
| 18:00 |
VanessaE |
it's not like you're signalling a major release. |
| 18:00 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: facedir > 23 crashes clients. |
| 18:00 |
Krock |
cg72, too many dots and numbers |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
oh okay |
| 18:00 |
VanessaE |
also memory leaks |
| 18:01 |
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| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
whatever, we'll do 0.4.12. |
| 18:01 |
Zeno` |
there was another way to crash clients as well |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
next release though is going to be much bigger and 1.0..0 |
| 18:01 |
Zeno` |
that airlike crap |
| 18:01 |
VanessaE |
oh yes, drop an airlike node |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
also this fixes schematics not working properly when a mod goes missing |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
also fixes minetest.register_* return values |
| 18:02 |
Zeno` |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/beb6b3e5937160fab583f5dda2be53a651f0ec71 |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
are the formspec things fixed? |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
are they considered fixed |
| 18:02 |
VanessaE |
there's still the matter of autoscaling formspecs |
| 18:02 |
VanessaE |
but the fonts are good now |
| 18:03 |
hmmmm |
and the light spreading is fixed |
| 18:03 |
ShadowNinja |
I haven't finished reading the log, but here's my 2c on releasing: A 0.4.12 release would be good, although I think the l-systems corruption issue should be fixed first if it's still broken. The release after 0.4.X should be 0.5, since we haven't made any significant changes. |
| 18:04 |
hmmmm |
just |
| 18:05 |
hmmmm |
hang on |
| 18:05 |
ShadowNinja |
We use semantic versioning as of the 0.4.12 release (since it's mostly bugfixes). |
| 18:05 |
hmmmm |
we can't release like right now |
| 18:05 |
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| 18:05 |
hmmmm |
do we really know that upstream HEAD is stable enough for a release? |
| 18:05 |
Calinou |
thanks for using semver |
| 18:05 |
hmmmm |
I'd like to add a /remove_block command as well |
| 18:05 |
* Calinou |
hallelujah |
| 18:05 |
shadowzone |
I'm with hmmmm right now, we released 0.4.11 almost 4 weeks ago and we're already planning to release 0.4.12? Doesn't make sense in my mind. |
| 18:06 |
Krock |
Calinou, ignore it until we're at 0.5.0 |
| 18:06 |
Calinou |
I know |
| 18:06 |
ShadowNinja |
shadowzone: Because we didn't use semver before. |
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sfan5 |
hmmmm: block as in MapBlock? if yes, why not an api fct. too? |
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| 22:09 |
TriBlade9 |
I swear I have learned more about C++ from this project than I have in the past five years or so. |
| 22:09 |
TriBlade9 |
And I still don't get it much. x] |
| 22:09 |
acerspyro |
lol |
| 22:10 |
acerspyro |
TriBlade9: I learned C++ by looking at Crawl's source code. |
| 22:10 |
acerspyro |
I used to know ncurses almost by heart, tho this is mostly forgotten now |
| 22:10 |
TriBlade9 |
:/ |
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| 23:04 |
hmmmm |
crazy day |
| 23:04 |
hmmmm |
so how long is the feature freeze going to be for |
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