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luizrpgluiz |
hi |
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| 05:56 |
paramat |
now that a default biome has been added to builtin, 'clear registered biomes' must be added to any mod that registers biomes, to avoid the builtin biome merging into the mod's biomes. i will announce this in the news thread |
| 05:59 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 05:59 |
hmmmm |
shouldn't they be doing that anyway? |
| 05:59 |
paramat |
yes |
| 05:59 |
hmmmm |
they have no idea if another mod was installed that registers biomes |
| 05:59 |
hmmmm |
do you agree with that behavior, though? |
| 06:00 |
paramat |
yes it's fine |
| 06:00 |
hmmmm |
should mods overwrite eachother's biomes, so effectively the one that has the most dependencies always wins? |
| 06:00 |
paramat |
yes |
| 06:01 |
hmmmm |
initially i just wanted to add the biome to minetest_game and minimal but that would have almost the same effect |
| 06:02 |
hmmmm |
i wish people would just stuff it and accept that they need to do a little legwork to get a good, playable minetest setup |
| 06:02 |
paramat |
its nice to have some grass, but prepare for the new whiny comments |
| 06:02 |
hmmmm |
i know |
| 06:02 |
hmmmm |
so much whine |
| 06:03 |
hmmmm |
i'm not a whine drinker |
| 06:03 |
hmmmm |
:\ |
| 06:04 |
hmmmm |
so I realized there's no good way to have a userdata object act like a plain old table |
| 06:04 |
paramat |
but then, i have to remind myself a player may be a 10 year old, you can never tell over the internet, so i try to be tolerant |
| 06:04 |
hmmmm |
the idea was to have something like |
| 06:04 |
hmmmm |
local vm = VoxelArea(nmin, nmax) |
| 06:04 |
hmmmm |
vm.emerged_min |
| 06:04 |
hmmmm |
etc. |
| 06:05 |
hmmmm |
to do that though i'd have to handle __index |
| 06:05 |
hmmmm |
which means it'd be the same lua->C->lua transition as it would if i were to just write vm:get_emerged_area() |
| 06:05 |
paramat |
ah this is for setting minp maxp without reading the map? |
| 06:05 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 06:06 |
hmmmm |
i've been struggling to dynamically set fields in a piece of userdata |
| 06:06 |
hmmmm |
it's not worth it though |
| 06:08 |
paramat |
not worth it for that feature alone certainly |
| 06:08 |
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| 06:09 |
paramat |
this news thread should stay up for a while https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10621 lots of useful info. |
| 06:09 |
hmmmm |
you know what's interesting that i don't actually know the answer to |
| 06:09 |
hmmmm |
someone made a mega TNT mod right after i came out with luavoxelmanip |
| 06:10 |
hmmmm |
and their explosion attempted to carve chunks into blocks that weren't generated yet |
| 06:10 |
hmmmm |
but it failed for whatever reason |
| 06:10 |
hmmmm |
what's supposed to happen is that the block gets created with content_ignore, filled up with air, and then when the map generator goes to generate, it doesn't generate on top of the air |
| 06:12 |
hmmmm |
i'd like to get that working |
| 06:12 |
paramat |
their explosion extended beyond the shell of mapblocks around the mapchunk? |
| 06:13 |
hmmmm |
there is no concept of a chunk outside of map generation |
| 06:13 |
hmmmm |
this carving happens in the server thread |
| 06:13 |
hmmmm |
the mapgen is supposed to ignore the air that already exists.. even if this did work as intended, there'd be another problem |
| 06:14 |
hmmmm |
it would generate biomes on top of the stone of the non-existing areas |
| 06:14 |
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| 06:16 |
paramat |
mmm .. guess i don't understand, seems expected for an overly-large lua LVM explosion to fail outside the shell |
| 06:16 |
paramat |
sorry |
| 06:17 |
paramat |
oops |
| 06:17 |
paramat |
TNT isnt on-gen |
| 06:17 |
paramat |
guess it used the non-mapgen LVM |
| 06:21 |
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| 06:21 |
paramat |
a reason why i find IRC chat so difficult is i often need minutes or hours to reread and understand what was written. this is why email is easier for me |
| 06:23 |
paramat |
instant communication by text is certainly the most difficut way to communicate |
| 06:26 |
hmmmm |
really? |
| 06:27 |
hmmmm |
i've been a huge proponent of having an mt mailing list |
| 06:27 |
hmmmm |
nobody else likes those though |
| 06:27 |
paramat |
yes really, for me anyway |
| 06:27 |
paramat |
forum sort of replaces email |
| 06:28 |
paramat |
i would be described as having 'aspergers syndrome' |
| 06:29 |
hmmmm |
self-diagnosed? |
| 06:29 |
paramat |
yep so far |
| 06:30 |
paramat |
thats why modding is perfect for me =) |
| 06:30 |
paramat |
i have talents but outside those i can be exceedingly thick lol |
| 06:31 |
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| 06:32 |
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| 06:49 |
hmmmm |
you know |
| 06:50 |
hmmmm |
you're probably not a sperg at all |
| 06:50 |
hmmmm |
the threshhold for weird is weirder than you might think |
| 06:50 |
paramat |
hehe |
| 06:50 |
hmmmm |
in any case, i think a good interface for this would be like: |
| 06:51 |
hmmmm |
local emin, emax = vm:get_blank_area(nmin, nmax) |
| 06:51 |
hmmmm |
errm... local data, emin, emax = |
| 06:52 |
hmmmm |
data will be a table with all the elements preallocated and content_ignore'd out |
| 06:52 |
hmmmm |
nah |
| 06:53 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 06:53 |
paramat |
i now see the mystery of the TNT behaviour, understood |
| 06:54 |
hmmmm |
local vm = VoxelManip(nmin, nmax) == VoxelManip(nmin, nmax, false) == combines object creation and read_from_map all at once |
| 06:54 |
hmmmm |
and then if the third parameter is true, then it doesn't read from map and instead just allocates a blank piece of data |
| 06:55 |
hmmmm |
regardless, you get either your blank buffer or buffer with map read in with vm:get_data() like usual |
| 06:55 |
hmmmm |
i have to get this right otherwise we'll be stuck with a crappy interface in the name of reverse compatibility |
| 06:57 |
hmmmm |
also i'm going to add a convenience function, vm:commit(data) that does all steps of setting data/writing to map/updating map/updating liquids |
| 06:57 |
paramat |
ah nice |
| 06:58 |
hmmmm |
local vm = VoxelManip(nmin, nmax, true); local data = vm:get_data() <do loop here>; vm:commit(data); |
| 06:58 |
hmmmm |
comments? |
| 06:59 |
paramat |
both ideas seem good at the moment |
| 07:00 |
Zeno` |
That would solve an issue I have where I have to read from the map just to set it all blank |
| 07:00 |
paramat |
sometimes i like to write it all out to omit something that isn't needed, such as update liquids |
| 07:01 |
hmmmm |
maybe I could have a helper in builtin that'll create your VoxelArea for you |
| 07:02 |
Zeno` |
yes |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
i see mods that use LuaVoxelManip and they all have a lot of boilerplate code |
| 07:04 |
paramat |
personally i usually copypaste all the stuff that would be in vm:commit so can't get overly excited about it, it would shorten code though |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
long code is messy code |
| 07:05 |
Zeno` |
There doesn't seem to be a way to use the voxel manipulator in a way that doesn't care what the map is currently like though (although maybe there is and I just don't know it) |
| 07:06 |
Zeno` |
e.g. commit doesn't know where to put the data and I can't see a way to set the area without getting it from the map (which of course populates the array with the map data that is totally ignored in my abandoned mod) |
| 07:10 |
hmmmm |
that's the whole point of this feature |
| 07:10 |
Zeno` |
I thought so, which is why I keep saying I like it :) |
| 07:21 |
paramat |
mgv5 https://cdn.mediacru.sh/k/kveCYIY4lrHS.png |
| 07:23 |
paramat |
this screenshot made me realise a good characteristic of v5: flat buildable areas and epic mountains in close proximity |
| 07:24 |
paramat |
viewing mountains is more impressive when seen over a flat area |
| 07:26 |
paramat |
this is why v7 needs tuning, more verticality, flat areas and mountains in closer proximity |
| 07:27 |
paramat |
if v7 is trashed at least players can transfer to v5 easily |
| 07:33 |
Zeno` |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10621&p=165334#p165320 please? |
| 07:33 |
Zeno` |
err, can you fix it please? |
| 07:34 |
Zeno` |
It makes it sound like minetest is trying to force people to use a permissive license |
| 07:39 |
paramat |
oops |
| 07:39 |
paramat |
will do |
| 07:42 |
Zeno` |
:) |
| 07:43 |
paramat |
i'm crazy |
| 07:43 |
Zeno` |
why? |
| 07:44 |
Zeno` |
I don't think you're crazy |
| 07:48 |
paramat |
just joking i do crazy things sometimes |
| 07:56 |
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| 08:09 |
hmmmm |
yeah paramat, you can probably tell i tried that by composing 3d noise and 2d noise |
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| 09:59 |
jin_xi |
oh wow, another vote for a mailing list! yes please! |
| 10:11 |
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| 11:02 |
Zeno` |
oh |
| 11:02 |
Zeno` |
I meant to see which unit test was failing when I was doing the Windows stuff :( |
| 11:10 |
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| 11:31 |
Zeno` |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/test.cpp#L2180 <--- Makes finding the source of which unit test failed using --info or debug_level=3 impossible |
| 11:33 |
Zeno` |
Anyway, after removing that line, this is what's failing on my Windows build: http://codepad.org/p9mGczvu |
| 12:11 |
kahrl |
Zeno`: can you uncomment the verbosestream line at test.cpp:298 and rerun? |
| 12:12 |
kahrl |
wtf is up with the comment at line 276 and 277, btw |
| 12:12 |
kahrl |
"2 = returns false on windows, false elsewhere"?? |
| 12:13 |
kahrl |
I must've been really drunk when I wrote that |
| 12:13 |
Zeno` |
kahrl, I'm back in Linux now :( |
| 12:13 |
kahrl |
oh |
| 12:14 |
Zeno` |
When I upgrade to f20 I'll fix wine etc |
| 12:14 |
Zeno` |
it's kind of broken atm so I have to physically reboot |
| 12:14 |
Zeno` |
and VM doesn't work so well on my computer for some reason |
| 12:20 |
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| 15:39 |
Zeno` |
#2000 |
| 15:39 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2000 -- Large increase in performance by Zeno- |
| 15:40 |
luizrpgluiz |
I'm glad I have not abandoned the development of minetest |
| 15:40 |
Calinou |
issue 2000! |
| 15:41 |
Calinou |
how much more FPS, Zeno`? |
| 15:41 |
Calinou |
did you test by starting the game at least twice, before and after changing the code? |
| 15:41 |
Calinou |
(to reduce the margin of error) |
| 15:43 |
Zeno` |
I tested about 20 times |
| 15:44 |
Zeno` |
it's a horrible patch |
| 15:44 |
Calinou |
ah |
| 15:44 |
Zeno` |
but about 10 fps more |
| 15:44 |
Calinou |
that's cool |
| 15:45 |
Zeno` |
depends on what your FPS was before I guess |
| 15:45 |
Zeno` |
about a 5% speed increase |
| 15:45 |
Wayward_One |
is this *another* speed increase i hear?? |
| 15:47 |
luizrpgluiz |
but the frames per second depends on the hardware configuration and operating system also |
| 15:47 |
Zeno` |
the 5% increase is ignore fps |
| 15:48 |
Zeno` |
which is why I was hesitant in giving a number for fps increase |
| 15:48 |
luizrpgluiz |
I for one game in the minetest Linux Lubuntu and performance on Linux is much better compared to Windows |
| 15:48 |
Zeno` |
too many variables |
| 15:49 |
Zeno` |
i get way more than 10fps more |
| 15:49 |
Zeno` |
but it depends on the user's computer |
| 15:51 |
luizrpgluiz |
Zenp`: yes, 10 frames per second is very good for those on a simple computer also |
| 15:51 |
Wayward_One |
cd .. |
| 15:52 |
luizrpgluiz |
my computer is a simple notebook, and next year I will buy my new computer that will be better than my notebook |
| 15:52 |
Wayward_One |
oops, wrong window >.< |
| 15:55 |
gravgun |
#2000, heh so that's why POD structs are awesome kids |
| 15:55 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2000 -- Large increase in performance by Zeno- |
| 15:55 |
gravgun |
No useless ctor crap when you don't want it |
| 15:58 |
Calinou |
POD, ctor? |
| 15:58 |
luizrpgluiz |
gravgun: you also are a developer or you are design? |
| 15:59 |
gravgun |
What do you mean by "design"? Code design? |
| 16:00 |
gravgun |
Calinou: POD = "Plain Old Data", id est C structs. "ctor" is short for "constructor" |
| 16:00 |
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| 16:01 |
Zeno` |
The problem, really, is the only ctor there has a bunch of default values; if they're going to be overwritten immediately 40% (or more) of the function is doing something utterly useless |
| 16:03 |
kahrl |
is this with or without optimization? |
| 16:03 |
Zeno` |
-O3 |
| 16:04 |
kahrl |
if an optimizing compiler doesn't optimize this stuff away... what a sad state C++ compilers are in |
| 16:04 |
Zeno` |
I only profile using -O3 |
| 16:04 |
Zeno` |
how can it? |
| 16:04 |
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| 16:05 |
kahrl |
by seeing it will be overwritten a few lines later |
| 16:05 |
Zeno` |
the "default" ctor initialises values because MapNode(content_t content = CONTENT_AIR, u8 a_param1=0, u8 a_param2=0) is effectively the default ctor |
| 16:05 |
gravgun |
kahrl: it is unlikely a compiler can optimize that, because construct-time initialization is done privately, i.e. one does not know which members are to be set or not |
| 16:05 |
kahrl |
gravgun: the constructor is defined in the header file |
| 16:06 |
kahrl |
in particular, it's inline |
| 16:06 |
gravgun |
Inlined is another deal tho :/ |
| 16:07 |
kahrl |
I guess the voxel area calculations in the loop below are too confusing for the compiler |
| 16:09 |
Zeno` |
new has to call the default ctor |
| 16:09 |
Zeno` |
it says so in the standard |
| 16:10 |
kahrl |
of course |
| 16:10 |
Zeno` |
and the default ctor in this case sets something that is not needed |
| 16:10 |
kahrl |
but there is also the as-if rule |
| 16:11 |
hmmmm |
#2000? |
| 16:11 |
Zeno` |
no, no, the ctor is setting param1 |
| 16:11 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2000 -- Large increase in performance by Zeno- |
| 16:11 |
Zeno` |
when there is no need to |
| 16:11 |
hmmmm |
reading... kahrl said exactly what I would've said |
| 16:12 |
Zeno` |
sorry, param0 |
| 16:12 |
Zeno` |
param0(content) |
| 16:12 |
Zeno` |
how can the compiler possibly know it should not set that to CONTENT_AIR? |
| 16:12 |
hmmmm |
MapNode was always POD |
| 16:13 |
Zeno` |
the problem is that MapNode(content_t content = CONTENT_AIR, u8 a_param1=0, u8 a_param2=0) *is* the default constructor because default values are given for all parameters |
| 16:14 |
Zeno` |
without refactoring and checking about 20000 lines of code then... it's hard to avoid that being called |
| 16:14 |
gravgun |
hmmmm: it have a user-defined constructor AFAIK |
| 16:14 |
gravgun |
so it's not POD |
| 16:14 |
hmmmm |
definitely false |
| 16:14 |
gravgun |
default constructor* |
| 16:14 |
hmmmm |
this is not-C++11 by the way |
| 16:14 |
Zeno` |
no, this is c++98 |
| 16:14 |
hmmmm |
things are POD definitely when they have virtual members |
| 16:15 |
gravgun |
C++11 or not MapNode() resolves MapNode(content_t content = CONTENT_AIR, u8 a_param1=0, u8 a_param2=0) |
| 16:15 |
kahrl |
grep -R MapNode .|wc -l |
| 16:15 |
kahrl |
452 |
| 16:15 |
kahrl |
not *that* much |
| 16:15 |
hmmmm |
you're right |
| 16:15 |
gravgun |
noooo that's nothin' ;) |
| 16:15 |
hmmmm |
I thought it was just no user-defined copy ctor |
| 16:15 |
hmmmm |
damn |
| 16:15 |
gravgun |
no POD can have any other constructor |
| 16:15 |
gravgun |
just must not have user-defined default one |
| 16:16 |
gravgun |
or user-defined dereference operators |
| 16:16 |
hmmmm |
wait |
| 16:16 |
hmmmm |
no user-defined copy assignment operator, no user-defined DEstructor, and no non-static data members that are not themselves POD |
| 16:17 |
hmmmm |
ahhh |
| 16:17 |
kahrl |
looking over those 452 lines, I don't see many that could potentially rely on the default value being CONTENT_AIR |
| 16:17 |
gravgun |
"no POD can have any other constructor" oops, actually not |
| 16:17 |
hmmmm |
a type isn't considered an aggregate if it has at least one user-declared constructor, private or protected data, base class or virtual functions |
| 16:17 |
kahrl |
most call the constructor with at least 1 argument or immediately assign something else |
| 16:18 |
hmmmm |
type_traits has is_pod |
| 16:18 |
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| 16:19 |
gravgun |
And as MT isn't C++11, no constructors are therefore allowed to make a struct POD. |
| 16:19 |
hmmmm |
yup... no matter how you look at it, according to the C++98 standard, MapNode is actually POD |
| 16:20 |
hmmmm |
non-POD i mean |
| 16:20 |
hmmmm |
if it were C++11 it would be POD |
| 16:20 |
gravgun |
heh |
| 16:20 |
gravgun |
Confusion \o/ |
| 16:20 |
hmmmm |
man that sucks |
| 16:20 |
gravgun |
C++11 is awesome, but C++'s memory and ctor/dtor model is still a huge mess |
| 16:21 |
gravgun |
(xvalues my beloved) |
| 16:21 |
hmmmm |
soo this sorta begs the question... |
| 16:21 |
hmmmm |
is it worth removing MapNode ctors |
| 16:21 |
Zeno` |
if removing them is a better option and someone wants to spend the time doing it, then of course |
| 16:22 |
Zeno` |
time doing it + testing it * |
| 16:23 |
kahrl |
well... that would for example make a lot of mapgen code much uglier |
| 16:23 |
kahrl |
stuff like MapNode n_dirt(c_dirt), n_gravel(c_gravel); |
| 16:24 |
hmmmm |
speed > pretty |
| 16:24 |
gravgun |
C++11 has struct brace-init *smirk* |
| 16:25 |
gravgun |
mai constructors? i haz no constructorz! i haz braces! |
| 16:25 |
gravgun |
but C++11 isn't an option here |
| 16:25 |
kahrl |
how about changing the default value from CONTENT_AIR to 0? |
| 16:26 |
hmmmm |
i would prefer for the default value to be CONTENT_IGNORE |
| 16:27 |
kahrl |
but with 0, when you do new MapNode[1337] just needs to set everything to zero |
| 16:27 |
kahrl |
must faster than any other value |
| 16:27 |
kahrl |
the compiler just* |
| 16:28 |
gravgun |
I know very few about MT's structure, but what advantages does CONTENT_IGNORE confer? |
| 16:28 |
gravgun |
over having CONTENT_AIR as default value (0)? |
| 16:28 |
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| 16:28 |
kahrl |
well, it would allow the loop in MapBlock::reallocate() to be removed |
| 16:29 |
kahrl |
CONTENT_IGNORE I mean |
| 16:29 |
kahrl |
gravgun: CONTENT_AIR is actually 126 |
| 16:29 |
hmmmm |
it doesn't hide a mistake if somebody doesn't set content |
| 16:30 |
hmmmm |
so I don't get it |
| 16:30 |
hmmmm |
if I'm understanding this correctly, a type could be classified as being POD under C++98 if you can do brace initialization |
| 16:30 |
hmmmm |
e.g. MapNode foobar[] = {MapNode()}; |
| 16:31 |
Zeno` |
does POD vs. non-POD even matter since everything is being "initialised" via memcpy() anyway? |
| 16:31 |
hmmmm |
i would prefer if it didn't do any initialization at all |
| 16:31 |
Zeno` |
CONTENT_AIR is 126 I think |
| 16:32 |
Zeno` |
oh, kahrl already said that :) |
| 16:33 |
kahrl |
0 used to be CONTENT_STONE in 0.3 |
| 16:35 |
kahrl |
Zeno`: is memcpy() on a non-POD even legal? |
| 16:35 |
Zeno` |
kahrl, I'm not sure. But it's happening in the current code already |
| 16:36 |
gravgun |
kahrl: I doubt it might be undefined behaviour |
| 16:36 |
gravgun |
not on the call itself of couse |
| 16:36 |
gravgun |
but on copied object access |
| 16:36 |
gravgun |
course* |
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| 18:21 |
thoughtjigs |
on github what is the sapier fork of minetest used for? |
| 18:23 |
jin_xi |
its just how github works i think, you basically need to have a fork to submit pull requests |
| 18:27 |
thoughtjigs |
thanks |
| 18:54 |
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PilzAdam |
I'm going to merge this typo fix in a few minutes: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/381 |
| 21:26 |
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luizrpgluiz |
hi |
| 22:51 |
hmmmm |
yeah, that's not legal |
| 22:51 |
hmmmm |
to copy non-POD types we need to use std::copy |
| 22:51 |
hmmmm |
i think the smarter idea here would be to change MapNode to POD |
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paramat |
hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2001 can the positional noiseparam format in .conf include lacunarity and flags? |
| 23:41 |
luizrpgluiz |
paramat: because you do not create Version 8 map generator in the new version of minetest, the 0.5.0? |
| 23:43 |
paramat |
i would like to code v8 or v9, we'll see |
| 23:47 |
luizrpgluiz |
:D |
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