| Time |
Nick |
Message |
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| 03:15 |
hmmmm |
agh |
| 03:15 |
hmmmm |
i want to use std::vector but it's not thread safe and i want my operations to be no-wait |
| 03:17 |
hmmmm |
reimplementing is not a big issue, but the thing is after the initial registration, no more generation elements than empty slots can be added |
| 03:17 |
hmmmm |
and i don't want to preallocate potentially thousands of slots |
| 03:18 |
hmmmm |
i can solve this by using a linked list instead, except i have a need for fast random access |
| 03:25 |
hmmmm |
excuse me talking to myself, this helps me gather thoughts. |
| 03:26 |
hmmmm |
i can indeed make a std::vector multiple-reader, single-writer with the caveat that there is only a certain amount of items that can ever be added |
| 03:33 |
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| 03:57 |
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| 04:04 |
hmmmm |
if i could guarantee that std::vector.push_back(NULL) increments its element counter AFTER allocating the memory and preparing it, then i wouldn't have that restriction |
| 04:05 |
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| 04:05 |
hmmmm |
this is probably how it's commonly done across stdlibc++s |
| 04:06 |
hmmmm |
perhaps I could just put a big warning label on adding new elements after node registration has completed |
| 04:40 |
Zeno` |
If anyone gets time can they please look at https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest/compare/control_key_optimisations and let me know if this is a sensible approach? |
| 04:40 |
Zeno` |
Time comparisons for the two affected functions are here: http://pastebin.com/ZgrKX33G |
| 04:41 |
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| 04:43 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: This seems unnecesary, if it fails the compiler is messed up too much for anything to work: https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest/compare/control_key_optimisations#diff-18513665750ef5adf42b5ec29e14162eR1241 |
| 04:43 |
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| 04:43 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: Seems good though. |
| 04:44 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: Maybe split it up and classify it into KeyCache or something like that. |
| 04:45 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: This might cause issues with keys changed with the in-game key change menu not applying though. |
| 04:46 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier implemented something to fix that, basically just allowing you to register a callback to run when a setting was set. |
| 04:46 |
Zeno` |
The in-game key change menu is ok, I agree with the other comments |
| 04:47 |
Zeno` |
yeah the assert is probably not necessary |
| 04:48 |
Zeno` |
ShadowNinja, in-game key changes are signalled with: https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest/compare/control_key_optimisations#diff-2f9d4f699f0cd8d9d241c2610093fa01R244 |
| 04:49 |
ShadowNinja |
Zeno`: O.K., seems fine then. |
| 04:49 |
Zeno` |
Cheers, thanks for reviewing |
| 04:51 |
Zeno` |
I remember why the assert is there. I was originally doing some additional checks when populating the array, which I might add back |
| 05:23 |
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| 05:24 |
cg72 |
where is the api for mapgen v7??? i cant find "minetest.register_biome" |
| 05:37 |
hmmmm |
that's because mapgen v7 was never officially released |
| 05:41 |
cg72 |
still needs an api ;) |
| 06:14 |
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| 07:58 |
hmmmm |
heh |
| 08:00 |
hmmmm |
the C++98 standard does in fact guarantee that memory is allocated (if necessary) and the value is set before _M_Finish is incremented |
| 08:42 |
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| 10:07 |
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| 10:18 |
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| 10:26 |
RealBadAngel |
i dont know yet what happened but i noticed drastical fps drops since last days commits |
| 10:26 |
RealBadAngel |
i get 7-10fps with 256x tp, while i used to have 40+ |
| 10:27 |
RealBadAngel |
houston, we have a problem |
| 10:30 |
jin_xi |
oh well... i lately tried an old vmanip mod of mine and its practically unusable now due to tons of wrong shadows, it used to work ok |
| 10:31 |
jin_xi |
maybe someone could run a reference system to detect such regressions? could a 'test world' or something help? |
| 10:34 |
RealBadAngel |
idk, i will step back with commits to check for the reason |
| 10:36 |
RealBadAngel |
funny |
| 10:36 |
RealBadAngel |
i restarted now mt client and got decent fps |
| 10:40 |
RealBadAngel |
is there a fps limiter active or what?? |
| 10:40 |
RealBadAngel |
it looks like game tries to get 30fps |
| 10:43 |
RealBadAngel |
when im changing the view, i can see almost 60fps, then i stop and without touching the controls it goes down to 30 |
| 10:43 |
RealBadAngel |
wtf? |
| 10:44 |
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| 10:46 |
RealBadAngel |
http://i.imgur.com/i9hKcjq.png |
| 10:46 |
RealBadAngel |
and WTF is that? |
| 10:47 |
RealBadAngel |
fresh build and up to date mt game, no mods |
| 10:47 |
jin_xi |
dungeon and cavegen artifact i'd say |
| 10:48 |
RealBadAngel |
this is desert stone, just checked |
| 10:49 |
RealBadAngel |
shit, im gonna disable that cave shit over ground level |
| 10:49 |
Amaz |
Desert stone dungeon. |
| 10:50 |
RealBadAngel |
it takes too long, such issues are here since two yrs already |
| 10:50 |
RealBadAngel |
if somebody wanna have caves and others shit in the sky, grab a pencil and paint it for himseld |
| 10:50 |
RealBadAngel |
*f |
| 10:51 |
RealBadAngel |
we doesnt need such bugs |
| 10:53 |
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| 10:56 |
RealBadAngel |
i remind all that caves are still generated no matter the height. |
| 10:57 |
RealBadAngel |
it takes time, causing shadows bugs |
| 10:57 |
RealBadAngel |
it cannot be accepted anymore |
| 10:57 |
Zeno` |
RealBadAngel, I cannot reproduce the FPS issue |
| 10:59 |
RealBadAngel |
i have to read the code, to see what can be the reason |
| 10:59 |
Zeno` |
jin_xi, FPS regression tests are kind of hard to automate :( Well, I can't think how anyway |
| 11:00 |
RealBadAngel |
theres no logical explanation why have higher fps when moving (and have forced mesh updated = slower) and then with steady view get drop |
| 11:00 |
Zeno` |
is v_range constant? |
| 11:00 |
RealBadAngel |
yes |
| 11:03 |
RealBadAngel |
hmm, with refactor the game, have you changed anything that could force more common pointed thing updates? |
| 11:03 |
RealBadAngel |
as you did with wielded |
| 11:04 |
Zeno` |
not that I can see |
| 11:04 |
RealBadAngel |
if that is also done per frame as wielded thats a problem |
| 11:05 |
Zeno` |
PointedThing pointed is the same as before (as far as I can see) |
| 11:05 |
RealBadAngel |
adding now little helpers, to check how often mapblock mesh is called |
| 11:08 |
Zeno` |
Santa's little helpers |
| 11:19 |
RealBadAngel |
very weird |
| 11:19 |
RealBadAngel |
single node placement causes circa 20 calls for mapblock mesh updates |
| 11:20 |
Zeno` |
is this using HEAD? |
| 11:20 |
Zeno` |
I haven't changed node placement code afaik |
| 11:20 |
RealBadAngel |
yes |
| 11:20 |
RealBadAngel |
i activated the timers on mapblock mesh |
| 11:21 |
RealBadAngel |
after placing a single node i can see many timers dump >15 |
| 11:22 |
RealBadAngel |
single time is fast |
| 11:22 |
RealBadAngel |
way faster than it was mentioned in comments |
| 11:22 |
RealBadAngel |
but when its done 15-20 times, its a diseaster |
| 11:22 |
Zeno` |
is this something to do with the_game() though? |
| 11:23 |
RealBadAngel |
i suspect pointed thing updates |
| 11:23 |
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| 11:23 |
RealBadAngel |
it is able to force an update |
| 11:23 |
Zeno` |
Game::handlePointingAtObject() |
| 11:23 |
Zeno` |
as far as I can see (at a glance) it's identical to what it used to be |
| 11:24 |
RealBadAngel |
digging makes the same effect |
| 11:25 |
RealBadAngel |
http://pastebin.com/ptgQZSjg |
| 11:26 |
RealBadAngel |
single action and time in ms of mesh gathering |
| 11:26 |
RealBadAngel |
one node dug, mapblock mesh called 16 times |
| 11:30 |
jin_xi |
for every crack step? |
| 11:32 |
RealBadAngel |
default crack is not so long |
| 11:32 |
RealBadAngel |
and the very same ammount of calls is done just on move |
| 11:32 |
RealBadAngel |
or light update (time) |
| 11:33 |
jin_xi |
ouch |
| 11:36 |
RealBadAngel |
i think that the best way to solve it will be finish my task |
| 11:36 |
RealBadAngel |
mapblock mesh update called only on content change |
| 11:36 |
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| 11:37 |
RealBadAngel |
the current way communicating game and mesh makers is weird |
| 11:38 |
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| 11:39 |
RealBadAngel |
it can never get in sync, see 0,0,0 highlighting problem |
| 11:39 |
RealBadAngel |
something is triggering updates way too often |
| 11:43 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, another bug, when fly is on, flying over a stone node causes playing step sound |
| 11:43 |
proller |
RealBadAngel, plz fix hilighting in noclip |
| 11:44 |
RealBadAngel |
proller, highlighting and cracks will get huge rewrite soon |
| 11:44 |
RealBadAngel |
im almost done with it |
| 11:45 |
proller |
mokay |
| 11:45 |
RealBadAngel |
proller, mainly they will get separated from mapblock mesh and become standalone scene nodes |
| 11:45 |
RealBadAngel |
updated only when needed |
| 11:45 |
RealBadAngel |
so the blocks |
| 11:46 |
proller |
shut up and code! ;) |
| 11:46 |
RealBadAngel |
:P |
| 11:46 |
RealBadAngel |
im coding at night, better mood |
| 11:46 |
Amaz |
No one understands what you're going on about, anyway XD |
| 11:47 |
Amaz |
(Well, maybe some people do!) |
| 11:47 |
RealBadAngel |
now im screaming wtf are those desert stones in the sky |
| 11:47 |
Amaz |
Desert stone dungeons. |
| 11:48 |
RealBadAngel |
yup, i better ask those aliens who brought mese down here :P |
| 11:48 |
Amaz |
Just like you sometimes get rings of cobble/mossy cobble in the air. |
| 11:54 |
RealBadAngel |
flying up also starts the sound, landing on the stone surface too |
| 11:54 |
RealBadAngel |
its a bit weird |
| 11:55 |
RealBadAngel |
when flying all such sounds shall be disabled |
| 11:56 |
RealBadAngel |
huh, even better |
| 11:56 |
RealBadAngel |
find a stone corner when you wont be able to fly away |
| 11:57 |
RealBadAngel |
and continue to try flying |
| 11:58 |
RealBadAngel |
sound will be played continously |
| 11:58 |
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| 11:58 |
RealBadAngel |
ouch, its like farting :P |
| 12:01 |
Zeno` |
RealBadAngel, so am I looking for something to fix? |
| 12:02 |
RealBadAngel |
bravo! a volunteer :) |
| 12:02 |
Zeno` |
no no no! roflol |
| 12:02 |
RealBadAngel |
you got a job :) |
| 12:02 |
Zeno` |
I mean in my refactor lol |
| 12:02 |
Zeno` |
gotta be careful what you say/ask around here :3 |
| 12:03 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe |
| 12:06 |
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| 12:12 |
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| 12:25 |
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| 12:40 |
Zeno` |
ok since the issue does not appear to be caused by refactoring the_game() I will make a PR to fix double-tap to fly bug |
| 12:41 |
Zeno` |
#1804 |
| 12:41 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1804 -- Fix regressions in refactor_the_game by Zeno- |
| 12:48 |
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| 13:23 |
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| 13:25 |
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| 13:36 |
Zeno` |
I think I need commit privs :( |
| 13:36 |
Amaz |
↑ |
| 13:40 |
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| 14:02 |
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| 15:19 |
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| 15:27 |
iqualfragile |
is there some way at all the player name can change while connected to the same server? |
| 15:28 |
Zeno` |
without disconnecting? No. |
| 15:29 |
iqualfragile |
ok, great |
| 15:31 |
iqualfragile |
btw: positional audio works |
| 15:31 |
iqualfragile |
im just gona clean up a bit and create pull request |
| 15:33 |
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| 18:25 |
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| 18:27 |
Krock |
celeron55, how about unlocking the topic "Server performance settings", so the server owners could post their settings there? [/mindblow] |
| 18:31 |
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| 18:34 |
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| 19:02 |
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| 19:33 |
RealBadAngel |
ooo! sapier, are you alive? :) |
| 19:33 |
sapier |
I think so yes ;-) |
| 19:34 |
RealBadAngel |
where have you been all this time? |
| 19:34 |
Krock |
o/ sapier! |
| 19:34 |
sapier |
lots of things to do in real life :-( ... time to get some vacation soon :-) |
| 19:35 |
RealBadAngel |
i hope you will mean get lotsa bubble gum and go back to coding things :) |
| 19:35 |
sapier |
what did I miss? |
| 19:36 |
Krock |
about 20 commits :P |
| 19:36 |
RealBadAngel |
hmm, c55 is doing another project - buildat |
| 19:37 |
sapier |
what's buildat? |
| 19:37 |
jin_xi |
https://github.com/celeron55/buildat |
| 19:37 |
RealBadAngel |
propably a proof that he can do it again but better this time |
| 19:38 |
RealBadAngel |
but who knows |
| 19:39 |
RealBadAngel |
tried to read that code but got a feeling that form again won over the content |
| 19:39 |
RealBadAngel |
but he seems to be very productive there |
| 19:40 |
sapier |
strange coding style conventions |
| 19:41 |
RealBadAngel |
ah, and you have missed round thingies ;) |
| 19:41 |
Calinou |
probably will not suceed |
| 19:41 |
sapier |
well it sounds quite interesting as of theoretical aproach |
| 19:41 |
Calinou |
also, unpackaged dependency… a no-go |
| 19:41 |
RealBadAngel |
http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/slopes-test.png |
| 19:42 |
sapier |
nice |
| 19:42 |
RealBadAngel |
meshnodes can be anything (just not animated yet) |
| 19:43 |
sapier |
I did fear that ;-) |
| 19:43 |
RealBadAngel |
also nodeboxes are no longer the slowest one drawtype |
| 19:43 |
Calinou |
More Blocks has slopes |
| 19:43 |
sapier |
not it's meshnodes? :-) |
| 19:44 |
sapier |
now |
| 19:44 |
Calinou |
nodeboxes are cached, their lighting was fixed, much faster |
| 19:44 |
Calinou |
they are converted on launch |
| 19:44 |
sapier |
:-) |
| 19:44 |
sapier |
sounds like a better way to fix it then what I expected ;-) |
| 19:45 |
RealBadAngel |
and to make you more happy i found 3 serious bugs today |
| 19:46 |
sapier |
found as of "fixed"? ;-) |
| 19:46 |
RealBadAngel |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9jOXsHLlrE&list=UU0m85fjDhVEu-YPbdz85C9g |
| 19:46 |
RealBadAngel |
idk why the sound volume is so low in here |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
so make it just loud |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
when fly enabled, game plays step sounds a very strange way |
| 19:49 |
RealBadAngel |
when you will have enough of "farting" sounds just take a look at this: http://i.imgur.com/i9hKcjq.png ;) |
| 19:53 |
RealBadAngel |
for the third one - massive calls for mapblock mesh updates, ~ 16 times per node dug, or another trigger, im coding the fixes now |
| 19:54 |
rubenwardy |
Urho3D takes soooo long to build |
| 19:57 |
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| 20:01 |
RealBadAngel |
sapier, you may like those: http://i.imgur.com/ECELl3Y.png or http://i.imgur.com/gwdEodB.png |
| 20:02 |
RealBadAngel |
or even http://i.imgur.com/eKgfuns.png |
| 20:05 |
Krock |
RealBadAngel, looks amazing. |
| 20:06 |
sapier |
looks like starcraft ;-) what's the fps impact? |
| 20:07 |
RealBadAngel |
next to none |
| 20:07 |
sapier |
and amazing too of course ;-) |
| 20:07 |
RealBadAngel |
meshnodes are the fastest drawtype aviable |
| 20:07 |
sapier |
well I still don't fully believe that ;-) |
| 20:07 |
Amaz |
Faster than the default drawtype? |
| 20:08 |
RealBadAngel |
i mean special one |
| 20:08 |
RealBadAngel |
regular nodes are converted into fast faces |
| 20:08 |
Amaz |
Ah okay. |
| 20:08 |
sapier |
as long as they're used as decoration they're most likely fine ... hopefully noone starts using them as terrain |
| 20:09 |
RealBadAngel |
but r2d2 model was a few times faster than a nodebox stair for example |
| 20:09 |
sapier |
but rba ... those torches next to the crystals look strange you should fix them ;-) |
| 20:09 |
Krock |
<RealBadAngel>meshnodes are the fastest drawtype aviable |
| 20:09 |
RealBadAngel |
that ofc has changed, since nodeboxes are not runtime drawtype anymore |
| 20:09 |
Krock |
so regular nodes are slower? |
| 20:10 |
Krock |
1**3 node |
| 20:10 |
RealBadAngel |
ShadowNinja was playing with torches, idk if he finished that work |
| 20:11 |
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| 20:12 |
RealBadAngel |
http://i.imgur.com/FKoYzoj.png |
| 20:12 |
ShadowNinja |
RealBadAngel: No, unfinished. But it should be easily doable now that wallmounted rotation of meshes is fixed. |
| 20:12 |
RealBadAngel |
i just found your screenshot :) |
| 20:13 |
sapier |
so only particles are missing? |
| 20:13 |
RealBadAngel |
jin_xi made most of the work i think |
| 20:14 |
RealBadAngel |
theres a pr for it, but not finished i think |
| 20:14 |
kilbith |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1700 |
| 20:16 |
RealBadAngel |
jin_xi seems to be unable to finish that PR |
| 20:16 |
RealBadAngel |
some1 should take it over |
| 20:17 |
jin_xi |
^ |
| 20:18 |
RealBadAngel |
sapier? :) |
| 20:18 |
rubenwardy |
BuildAt has a physics engine D: |
| 20:18 |
RealBadAngel |
rubenwardy, big deal, we can too, irrlicht has lotsa additions |
| 20:19 |
rubenwardy |
Go on then |
| 20:19 |
rubenwardy |
I have used Irrlicht XD |
| 20:19 |
RealBadAngel |
we have more important things to do than reinventing falling apples ;) |
| 20:20 |
rubenwardy |
Thought so. BuiltAt takes about 1/2 hour to compile, and 5 mins to load "game/digger" |
| 20:20 |
rubenwardy |
for me |
| 20:21 |
rubenwardy |
load, as in stop falling |
| 20:26 |
ShadowNinja |
RealBadAngel: It doesn't work... http://imgur.com/NRP57zW |
| 20:27 |
RealBadAngel |
you need different models |
| 20:28 |
RealBadAngel |
wallmounted wont rotate them as torchlike does |
| 20:28 |
RealBadAngel |
wm only means basic rotations |
| 20:29 |
RealBadAngel |
so the mesh will be actually wall mounted |
| 20:30 |
RealBadAngel |
but you still need 45 degs model for sides |
| 20:32 |
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| 20:33 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
hi how do a catch an error with minetest.set_node when the given name node does not exist ? |
| 20:34 |
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| 20:35 |
RealBadAngel |
imho in the first place you shall not feed functions with wrong parameters |
| 20:36 |
RealBadAngel |
thats a better approach than just testing what it can survive |
| 20:36 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
I create a 3x3 cube of the given node |
| 20:37 |
RealBadAngel |
make a mesh of visual scale 3.0 instead |
| 20:37 |
RealBadAngel |
and use regular cube model for that |
| 20:38 |
RealBadAngel |
it will be single node then |
| 20:39 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
Sorry I don't create a now node just a cune like worldedit wold do :) |
| 20:39 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
*new *cube |
| 20:39 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
*would |
| 20:42 |
SudoAptGetPlay |
I'm gonna use minetest.registered_nodes[itemstring] thanks anyway :) |
| 20:51 |
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| 20:53 |
RealBadAngel |
ShadowNinja, http://i.imgur.com/hjtT1Xj.png this is how wallmounted for meshes works |
| 21:01 |
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| 21:03 |
ShadowNinja |
RealBadAngel: Doesn't seem to be working for me. |
| 21:05 |
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| 21:06 |
sapier |
well guys a function taking parameters from "user" interaction always has to check its parameters and handle invalid ones |
| 21:07 |
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| 21:29 |
sapier |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/b49e5cfc7013cef7e9af79d17e04f7e7e4c377d4 nice work kahrl ;-) did you think about making it threadsafe too ;-) |
| 21:31 |
kilbith |
ShadowNinja : could you take a decision for the ladder, grass, leaves & vessels ? pending since almost 1 month :( |
| 21:31 |
kilbith |
some of them have a majority of 'likes' by devs |
| 21:32 |
ShadowNinja |
kilbith: No. I'm not allowed to touch minetest_game for anything but the most trivial patches anymore. You'll have to talk to BlockMen, sfan5, and nore. |
| 21:32 |
sapier |
hmm maybe it is as you use irrlichts reference counting ... missed that on first glance |
| 21:32 |
kilbith |
ok thanks |
| 21:40 |
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| 21:49 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: "WARNING: Not thread safe. This should not be a problem since rendering related classes (such as WieldMeshSceneNode) will be used from the rendering thread only." |
| 21:50 |
sapier |
that one is about menu, once lua is a separate thread there may be multithreaded situations |
| 21:51 |
sapier |
well actually we need client side lua in a separate thread to cause it |
| 21:53 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: Oh, sorry, didn't even look at your link, I just assumed you meant his latest change. |
| 21:54 |
sapier |
no I meant the guiformspecmenu reference counting, which was a open issue in that code till kahrl (almost) fixed it |
| 21:54 |
sapier |
to me it looks like a small gap in there but in current situation it wont cause any harm |
| 21:54 |
sapier |
and previous version was way more risk |
| 21:54 |
sapier |
y |
| 21:58 |
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| 22:26 |
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| 22:36 |
iqualfragile |
are there any people able to test on windows? |
| 22:58 |
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| 23:09 |
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| 23:16 |
OldCoder |
<OldCoder> viewing_range_nodes_max = 200 |
| 23:16 |
OldCoder |
<OldCoder> Does that have any effect when it is in a server side conf file? |
| 23:17 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 23:18 |
VanessaE |
but there is a setting on server-side that'll set how far away a block can be before it's no longer being sent to the client |
| 23:18 |
VanessaE |
#max_block_send_distance = 10 |
| 23:19 |
VanessaE |
(distance is in mapblocks) |
| 23:19 |
VanessaE |
and there's another to control how far out blocks are generated as well |
| 23:19 |
VanessaE |
#max_block_generate_distance = 6 |
| 23:19 |
VanessaE |
(range is in mapblocks there also) |
| 23:19 |
OldCoder |
Ah |
| 23:20 |
OldCoder |
I was thinking of the latter |
| 23:20 |
OldCoder |
If sapier is around I'd like to update him on things |
| 23:20 |
VanessaE |
he signed off about an hour ago |
| 23:20 |
OldCoder |
kkty |
| 23:21 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, BTW "Minebest" is back. It is now the name for my entire server framework |
| 23:21 |
OldCoder |
Which includes a number of goodies to be discussed |
| 23:22 |
OldCoder |
Both fast and free move are client side only too? |
| 23:26 |
VanessaE |
they're server privs but the client has to honor them |
| 23:27 |
OldCoder |
kk |
| 23:28 |
OldCoder |
I disable it |
| 23:28 |
OldCoder |
max_simultaneous_block_sends_per_client = 1 |
| 23:28 |
OldCoder |
max_simultaneous_block_sends_server_total = 20 |
| 23:28 |
OldCoder |
Those are server side performance, right? |
| 23:34 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 23:34 |
VanessaE |
but that's awful low. |
| 23:34 |
VanessaE |
the latter on mine is 500 and some folks have told me even THAT is a bit low |
| 23:37 |
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| 23:58 |
iqualfragile |
OldCoder: those settings, especially the later one just eat memory |
| 23:59 |
iqualfragile |
set as high as you can afford |
