IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-10-01

Time	Nick	Message
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02:22	Zeno`	Can the new mouse behaviour be made an option?
02:29	Zeno`	The change to node box highlight was an option and not as "severe" a change as this
02:29	Zeno`	s/was/is
02:29	kahrl	Zeno`: it will probably changed in the way SN mentioned
02:30	kahrl	be changed*
02:30	kahrl	so there won't be a need for the option
02:30	Zeno`	oh ok
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03:32	Atlas\|1618033	Looking for a good place to get started on documentation, both within the minetest code and maybe a few references to get me started.
03:46	VanessaE	does anyone know whatever became of sapier?
03:48	Zeno`	Well, in the books I read he was a god and sort of disappeared once the humans colonised the planet
03:48	VanessaE	hah
03:49	Zeno`	The series was called Terra Incognita
03:49	Atlas\|1618033	Vacation maybe?
03:50	VanessaE	that might be, didn't think of that
03:50	Zeno`	here it is: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hLlvEyNPx1sC&pg=PT207&lpg=PT207&dq=terra+incognita+series+sapier&source=bl&ots=BAZ0ykjhjI&sig=jO7J9y34cmzKzPRG4qfAjnQY2iE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=13krVKbjLJeeoQS4xICgCw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=terra%20incognita%20series%20sapier&f=false
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04:31	doomtron	When waving water is selected, the water block, which is above another block(i.e. wood), doesnt get its texture loaded. how can I change it?
04:41	VanessaE	it sounds like you're using one of RealBadAngel's glistening water test forks?
04:41	VanessaE	normally the texture is still loaded, shaders or not
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04:54	VanessaE	that is, normallyit's loaded if you're using mainline. with his test code, it isn't (the shader provides some of the texture algorithmically and some of it from a loaded normalmap)
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04:57	RealBadAngel	hi
04:57	rickmcfarley	hello
05:00	VanessaE	speak of the dev...angel ;)
05:01	RealBadAngel	hehe
05:01	RealBadAngel	just call me and i come ;)
05:12	RealBadAngel	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1685
05:14	RealBadAngel	any constructive objections? i need that code be merged for my next patches
05:15	VanessaE	I guess the highlight only shows the dig progress if cracks are disabled?
05:17	VanessaE	the code seems okay but I'm no expert.
05:17	VanessaE	I have no objection.
05:21	RealBadAngel	not really
05:21	VanessaE	RealBadAngel: one caveat: "more than 16 steps for cracks? Longest one i saw is 10." HDX has a 16-frame crack animation.
05:22	VanessaE	(if I remember right)
05:22	RealBadAngel	i made the cracks divided into 16 steps no matter the method used
05:22	VanessaE	but that's just a note really.
05:22	RealBadAngel	at least animation of it
05:22	RealBadAngel	textures (frames) are scaled to fit
05:23	RealBadAngel	highlighting is using it to fade away the halo
05:23	VanessaE	right
05:23	VanessaE	not a feature I'll use.
05:24	* VanessaE	<-- luddite who prefers the crack animation :)
05:24	RealBadAngel	ofc you will
05:24	RealBadAngel	;_
05:24	RealBadAngel	erm i meant ;)
05:25	RealBadAngel	but 16 is ok
05:25	RealBadAngel	thats the max ive chosen
05:25	RealBadAngel	and theres really no need for longer crack animations
05:26	RealBadAngel	haven has 10 frames, game 5
05:27	RealBadAngel	also when we are on the edge of flexibility and speed i will always choose hardcoded speed
05:29	doomtron	VanessaE: i'm using default git version
05:30	RealBadAngel	the area im working on with slight changes can efect with serious fps gains
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05:31	RealBadAngel	lately i was comparing builds from 3-4 months away (were extracting old patches) to the current stage
05:31	RealBadAngel	occasion was good, since now im on galium drivers
05:31	RealBadAngel	gain is huge
05:32	RealBadAngel	10-15 fps before (pre caching era) compared to now
05:33	RealBadAngel	now i get 45-60 on galium
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05:40	doomtron	https://mediacru.sh/9Ctwwh0H7d4y
05:40	VanessaE	oh THAT?
05:40	VanessaE	that's an old glitch
05:40	VanessaE	olllllllllld
05:40	doomtron	hmm
05:41	VanessaE	btw, protip: /time 12000 before you take a screenshot :)
05:41	doomtron	x)
05:41	VanessaE	RealBadAngel: he talks about the top surface of the water under that log is missing, because the surface of the water has been lowered and those faces are being culled. I guess you planned to fix that soon?
05:42	RealBadAngel	yes
05:42	VanessaE	ok
05:42	VanessaE	doomtron: sufficient? :)
05:42	RealBadAngel	im gonna move all the vertices animations to mapblock_mesh(animate)
05:42	RealBadAngel	so, out of the shaders
05:43	RealBadAngel	and drop this silly water jelly animation
05:43	doomtron	more or less
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05:43	RealBadAngel	water surface shaders will take the place
05:44	doomtron	I would like to do it myself, just to get into the code. Could you tell me more about that?
05:45	RealBadAngel	do what?
05:45	doomtron	patch minetest
05:46	RealBadAngel	oh boy, you would get lost in the jungle of my branches ;)
05:46	doomtron	you a real bad angel
05:46	RealBadAngel	;)
05:47	VanessaE	bahaha
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08:22	RealBadAngel	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1685
08:22	RealBadAngel	mergeing this in an hour
08:22	RealBadAngel	this is an blocker for me for further work
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08:50	RealBadAngel	anyway, i am requesting to remove c55 from AV head
08:50	RealBadAngel	hes doing nothing
08:50	RealBadAngel	hes just a blocker
08:51	RealBadAngel	either that or i stop contributing
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09:48	RealBadAngel	c55 being head of AV is no go
09:49	RealBadAngel	hes not a born coder
09:51	RealBadAngel	since quite a while im one and only to know whats up in meshes
09:51	RealBadAngel	i do have circa 10 branches open with pulls rdy
09:52	jin_xi	Hey RealBadAngel there is something with shaders:
09:52	RealBadAngel	this is ridiculous since im working on a few files
09:52	RealBadAngel	jin_xi, yes?
09:52	jin_xi	night/day cycle used to be smooth over all the blocks
09:52	jin_xi	now its block per block again
09:52	jin_xi	can this be avoided?
09:52	RealBadAngel	never was
09:53	jin_xi	sure
09:53	jin_xi	?
09:53	RealBadAngel	it is updated when time allows
09:53	RealBadAngel	more to do, easier to spot
09:54	RealBadAngel	can be done faster tho
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09:54	RealBadAngel	and im on it
09:55	RealBadAngel	Hi PilzAdam
09:55	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, when you will start to contribute again?
09:55	PilzAdam	hi RealBadAngel, have you seen my message in #minetest?
09:56	RealBadAngel	no
09:56	RealBadAngel	can u copy it?
09:56	PilzAdam	[16:21:22] <PilzAdam> RealBadAngel, why isn't there a smooth day-night-cycle with shaders anymore?
09:58	RealBadAngel	im not aware of any glitches
09:58	RealBadAngel	can you reproduce the issue?
09:59	jin_xi	set time to dawn, look in one direction, then look around in other directions when it got a little darker
10:00	Zeno`	actually I have a few issues with shaders :(
10:00	RealBadAngel	so go on
10:00	Zeno`	if I stand at the bottom of a cliff, for example, it looks like night
10:00	PilzAdam	RealBadAngel, basically mapblocks seem to have fixed light levels at sunrise/sunset instead of a smooth transition
10:01	PilzAdam	also if you turn arround after sunset (like jin_xi said), you see bright mapblocks for a second that then update their light level
10:01	PilzAdam	it's like the old non-shader behavior
10:01	Zeno`	but then "flicks" back to day
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10:05	PilzAdam	RealBadAngel, http://i.imgur.com/bjei5Bz.png this is how it looks if mapblocks slowly update their light at night
10:06	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, and you blame me for that?
10:07	RealBadAngel	engine sucks balls not me :P
10:07	PilzAdam	blame? I just asked if you know what caused this regression and possibly fix it
10:07	RealBadAngel	i know
10:08	RealBadAngel	but every piece of code im posting is put away
10:08	RealBadAngel	im tired of full mouth contributors that do nothing but stop anothers
10:09	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, do you get it?
10:10	PilzAdam	RealBadAngel, I guess the problem with most of your changes is that it doesn't really fit into the goals of other core devs
10:11	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, problem is that most want flexibility and i want speed
10:12	RealBadAngel	we are doing game
10:12	RealBadAngel	we want it to be fast
10:12	Zeno`	I want speed
10:13	VanessaE	in a game, speed is more important than flexibility
10:13	RealBadAngel	not crawling around to be meeting everybodys wishes
10:13	VanessaE	particularly when we already have enough flexibility as it is (generally speaking)
10:13	Zeno`	I'd much prefer speed over some fancy abstracted (and let's face it, the src code is not that tidy) "perfect" implementation
10:14	PilzAdam	well, I can only speak for myself and I don't care about the "fancy visuals" like bumpmaps and parallax occlusion and what not; it's nice to have, but your additions tend to break previously working things
10:14	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, my changes tend to work previous things faster
10:15	Zeno`	come on... I get 20fps on minetest and 200fps on skyrim with max settings... something seems wrong there
10:15	RealBadAngel	damn faster
10:15	proller	anything wrong
10:15	RealBadAngel	Zeno`, ofc faulty meshes handling
10:16	proller	not only meshes
10:16	RealBadAngel	proller, im on meshes only
10:17	proller	but anything around wrong too
10:17	RealBadAngel	i can say whats wrong here
10:17	proller	i'm too, but impossible to fix all problems
10:17	RealBadAngel	ofc not
10:17	proller	faster write from scratch
10:17	RealBadAngel	lol no
10:18	proller	or start from hexa...
10:18	RealBadAngel	easier to have a base
10:18	jin_xi	poor proller
10:18	proller	why?
10:18	jin_xi	forked the wrong shit
10:19	RealBadAngel	lol
10:19	RealBadAngel	the shit was right
10:19	RealBadAngel	approach was wrong
10:19	proller	wrong but it playable
10:19	Zeno`	well the other thing affects speed is having node ids and meta in a class
10:20	Zeno`	they should be separate arrays so that data proximity is preserved
10:20	Zeno`	there are cache misses all over the place and this is even before things get to the rendering stage
10:20	jin_xi	look, maybe we can be more productive than stating all is wrong. like with saying what is wrong in each case and musing whether there is a way to make it better
10:20	RealBadAngel	Zeno`, im moving all the things to startup only
10:21	RealBadAngel	now im about to cache facedir and nodebox rotations
10:22	Zeno`	it's not impossible to fix, jin_xi
10:22	RealBadAngel	propably this way i will exclude the on the fly modifications
10:23	proller	first wrong thing is architecture
10:23	RealBadAngel	but i will gain serious speed up
10:23	jin_xi	Zeno`: thats my point
10:23	Zeno`	if a node ID is part of an object that is, say, 400 bytes, then the next id is 400 bytes away (at least)
10:23	proller	mt is singleplayer 1.1 threaded game
10:23	Zeno`	these can be kept so they're always 1 byte away
10:24	proller	with lua tumor
10:24	Zeno`	Kind of like how int a[3][3][3] is faster (in general) if you split it into three single dimensional arrays
10:25	jin_xi	well, i think its no question if lua is gonna stay in mt proller
10:25	RealBadAngel	cool
10:25	PilzAdam	bisected the day-night transition: bf91d623c8fc1fede7b600d1b0f4be1bc6b37c44 is the first bad commit
10:25	PilzAdam	"Let lighting be done only CPU side. Remove finalColorBlend implementation from shaders." by RealBadAngel
10:25	RealBadAngel	abstraction layer is being discussed again
10:26	Zeno`	take voxelmanip as an example. On my i7 it takes 60-70ms just to populate the Lua stack. This should me more like < 1ms
10:26	Zeno`	be*
10:26	proller	voxelmanip is another shit
10:26	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, whats wrong with this?
10:26	PilzAdam	it makes a non-smooth day night transition
10:26	Zeno`	and that's because the data layout is wrong. simple thing to fix
10:26	RealBadAngel	ah oh
10:26	jin_xi	RealBadAngel: shaders cant make smooth day night transition before cpu can catch up
10:27	PilzAdam	a smooth day-night-transition was one of the reason we added shaders in the first place
10:27	RealBadAngel	you have lived with that code for years
10:27	RealBadAngel	and now you blame me?
10:27	RealBadAngel	read what the pull does
10:27	RealBadAngel	and stfu
10:28	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, youre notin more than full mouth
10:28	RealBadAngel	sorry to say that, but thats true
10:28	RealBadAngel	fix the carts instead
10:30	proller	jin_xi, maybe js? slow shit too, but designed for peoples
10:30	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, and the shaders was the thing you seem to hate the most
10:30	RealBadAngel	so double stfu
10:31	RealBadAngel	im pretty tired of havin code ready but BEGGING for it to be merged
10:32	RealBadAngel	it is my hobby to code for mt
10:32	RealBadAngel	but begging is not
10:33	RealBadAngel	either something is gonna change or i will just simply fork
10:33	proller	^ it was one of reason for forking
10:33	RealBadAngel	and leave
10:34	proller	join us ;)
10:34	RealBadAngel	no, not you
10:34	proller	you almost ready
10:35	RealBadAngel	dunno
10:36	PilzAdam	<RealBadAngel> you have lived with that code for years <- what? it's 2 months old and I haven't played Minetest since then
10:36	PilzAdam	or are you saying that removing the smooth day-night-transition was intentional?
10:37	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, im saying i havent touched that
10:37	PilzAdam	you did in bf91d623c8fc1fede7b600d1b0f4be1bc6b37c44
10:37	RealBadAngel	i can now say i know where that code is
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10:39	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, please fill the issue
10:39	RealBadAngel	with all the details
10:39	PilzAdam	"fill the issue"?
10:39	RealBadAngel	atm i dont know what you are talking about
10:40	PilzAdam	ah, ok
10:40	PilzAdam	before shaders were added there was a non-smooth day-night-cycle; basically some steps of fixed light values of mapblocks
10:41	RealBadAngel	nothing changed
10:41	VanessaE	PilzAdam: I am pretty sure that the mapblocks have always done that
10:41	RealBadAngel	thats still here
10:41	PilzAdam	then shaders were added and the day-night-transition code was moved to them, so the day-night-transition was smooth instead of having fixed light steps
10:42	PilzAdam	and in bf91d623c8fc1fede7b600d1b0f4be1bc6b37c44 you now removed the code from the shaders, so the transition is non-smooth again
10:42	RealBadAngel	theyre smooth enugh
10:42	Amaz	â†‘
10:42	PilzAdam	[12:05:29] <PilzAdam> RealBadAngel, http://i.imgur.com/bjei5Bz.png this is how it looks if mapblocks slowly update their light at night
10:43	PilzAdam	^ this is not smooth enough
10:43	RealBadAngel	but no point to feel sorry bout loosing that piece of code
10:43	RealBadAngel	we are at the doorstep to have real lights
10:43	Amaz	:D
10:44	RealBadAngel	im learning irrlicht all the time
10:44	RealBadAngel	we were doing many things faulty
10:44	PilzAdam	RealBadAngel, you talked about speed earlier; it is actually faster to execute the code in the shaders, since you don't have to rebuild all meshes at sunset/sunrise
10:44	RealBadAngel	including lights
10:45	PilzAdam	and rebuilding the meshes is slow and has visual glitches (as you can see in the screenshot linked above)
10:45	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, rebuilding meshes is the point of getting them ready
10:45	RealBadAngel	at startup
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10:46	RealBadAngel	ie grab the mesh, apply rotations, calculate bounding boxes and store them
10:47	RealBadAngel	on mapblock mesh refresh just fetch the correct mesh
10:49	RealBadAngel	and what you can see on screenshot is lag, not light code
10:49	RealBadAngel	and sucking balls multi threading
10:50	jin_xi	RealBadAngel: the point is that shaders can avoid this issue with a little code duplication, so why not keep doing it
10:50	BlockMen	10:43 <PilzAdam> ^ this is not smooth enough <-- /me agrees
10:51	PilzAdam	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1705
10:51	Zeno`	I don't think that screenshot has anything to do with RBA's code
10:51	PilzAdam	I suggest to mark this as blocker since it's a regression to previous stable release
10:51	RealBadAngel	what about folks that cannot use shaders?
10:52	jin_xi	they are stuck with the old way
10:52	PilzAdam	RealBadAngel, they always have non-smooth transition anyway
10:52	RealBadAngel	also, i dont like having sticker on my forehead beacause im just around :P
10:53	RealBadAngel	jin_xi, shaders are not a solution to the faulty lighting code
10:54	RealBadAngel	purpose of the GPU code is to make gfx shine
10:54	jin_xi	but there is no need to rub it in your face
10:54	RealBadAngel	not to fix cpu faults
10:55	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, and this code will never return there
10:55	RealBadAngel	no way for such nasty workarounds
10:56	BlockMen	so better keep shit than having workarounds?
10:56	jin_xi	huh? is it so nasty?
10:56	Amaz	Just one question, will that be fixed by different code at some point?
10:56	PilzAdam	RealBadAngel, seriously, wtf are you talking?
10:56	Amaz	s/Just one question, will/Will
10:57	PilzAdam	light calculation is faster and looks better when done in GPU
11:02	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, what have u smoked today?
11:03	RealBadAngel	since when light it gpu side here?
11:04	RealBadAngel	never was
11:04	RealBadAngel	and the shader code was never close to it
11:04	jin_xi	its just about the final color blend, nothing more
11:05	RealBadAngel	ofc
11:05	RealBadAngel	but no matter where
11:05	RealBadAngel	cpu side is faster
11:06	RealBadAngel	putting it into shaders was like shooting own feet
11:06	Zeno`	lighting is faster on CPU?
11:06	RealBadAngel	damn
11:06	RealBadAngel	theres no lighting
11:07	RealBadAngel	we do have just dumb code
11:07	RealBadAngel	stop calling it lighting
11:07	Megaf	I think light and shadow calculations should be moved from server to client
11:07	Zeno`	I'm not sure what else to call it :)
11:07	RealBadAngel	best way to handle that is to trash it
11:08	Megaf	server will just say to client where the light sources are and the client would render everything
11:08	RealBadAngel	see?
11:08	Megaf	and in case of plantations, client would calculate where theres light and shadow and then it would tell the server
11:08	RealBadAngel	calculate shadows on the servers side....
11:08	Megaf	RealBadAngel: we already have bugs related to shadows on server side
11:08	RealBadAngel	sun god is smiling in his grave....
11:09	Megaf	sometime we get those dark areas for no reason
11:09	Zeno`	why would shadows or light need to be server side (except for an approximation to account for light-reliant ABMs?)
11:09	RealBadAngel	we dont have shadows at all
11:09	Megaf	ok, so how do you call those dark areas under trees and buildinds and on buggy areas?
11:10	RealBadAngel	bugs of so called lighting systems
11:10	RealBadAngel	but no shadows
11:10	Amaz	Are you planning on redoing the lighting system?
11:11	RealBadAngel	im planning to redo mesh system
11:11	RealBadAngel	but it seems i will have to fork mt to do so
11:11	Amaz	:(
11:11	RealBadAngel	im tired enough
11:12	RealBadAngel	nobody is payin me for my job
11:12	Megaf	RealBadAngel: do we really need this mesh thing?
11:13	Megaf	and nobody is paying neither of us
11:13	RealBadAngel	and nobody should crying on me what i did wrrong
11:13	RealBadAngel	im the one who cares
11:13	RealBadAngel	i can fix things based on feedback
11:13	proller	not one
11:14	Amaz	RealBadAngel, your commits are the best commits of the past month, if not further back than that.
11:15	Amaz	I'm not joking either.
11:18	RealBadAngel	seriously? we dont have commits that brings something new
11:19	RealBadAngel	those who did were taken by freeminer
11:19	RealBadAngel	most shame on us we let circuits let go
11:24	RealBadAngel	we dont have even such basic feature as storing data in db
11:25	RealBadAngel	mt development is in dead end
11:26	RealBadAngel	nobody knows what other dev is doing, neither understand his code
11:26	RealBadAngel	all the voices are about whitespaces or the code style
11:27	RealBadAngel	dev branch was supposed to merge experimental code
11:28	RealBadAngel	to be polished and used in stable
11:28	Amaz	The node highlighting is brilliant.
11:28	RealBadAngel	but all think nothin can be merged here until its stable
11:28	RealBadAngel	so how?
11:29	RealBadAngel	we shall hire testers to test our branches?
11:29	Amaz	The devs need to open up to unstable content.
11:30	RealBadAngel	nobody can create stable code on first attempt
11:30	Amaz	Yep.
11:30	Amaz	And it probably won't be tested if it isn't merged.
11:31	RealBadAngel	if its merged folks can find holes
11:31	RealBadAngel	authot can fix them
11:31	RealBadAngel	ie improve the code
11:31	Amaz	+100
11:32	RealBadAngel	but not just by begging a piece to be merged
11:32	RealBadAngel	thats fuckin sick
11:32	proller	one more understood ;)
11:32	BlockMen	RealBadAngel, you were also blocking things from mergin because you did not like it
11:32	BlockMen	and now you complain that same is done with your code
11:33	BlockMen	wtf
11:33	RealBadAngel	BlockMen, i did so once
11:33	Zeno`	Well, that does raise a question... why aren't there branches?
11:33	RealBadAngel	for a reason
11:33	Zeno`	What reason?
11:34	Zeno`	If Alan Cox didn't have his own linux branch Linux would not be the OS it is today
11:34	Zeno`	I would test a RealBadAngel branch
11:34	RealBadAngel	BlockMen, and i said "veto"just once. in 2 years
11:35	BlockMen	Zeno`: https://github.com/RealBadAngel <-- many RealBadAngel branches
11:35	Amaz	What was the veto for?
11:36	Zeno`	those are not branches
11:36	BlockMen	Zeno`, i ment in his minetest repository
11:37	RealBadAngel	most of the code is never published
11:37	RealBadAngel	i am being blocked all the time
11:38	RealBadAngel	since im working on a few files just, all my code depend on previous changes
11:39	Zeno`	BlockMen, they're still not branches. Unless you mean his avatar, but I thing those look more like wings
11:40	RealBadAngel	i cannot even push bugfixes to the engine
11:40	RealBadAngel	engine is too outdated for that
11:41	BlockMen	Zeno`, wtf? https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest <<-- click on "branch"-Buttin to see all branches
11:41	BlockMen	*button
11:41	RealBadAngel	BlockMen, im not publishig everythin
11:42	Zeno`	those are private branches
11:42	BlockMen	Zeno`, a "RealBadAngel"-Branch on minetest/minetest wouldnt be something else
11:42	Zeno`	I disagree, but anyway
11:42	Zeno`	I don't want to argue
11:43	BlockMen	lel
11:43	RealBadAngel	BlockMen, problem is not i do have branches
11:43	RealBadAngel	problem is i do have idle code
11:43	PilzAdam	[13:13:51] <RealBadAngel> i can fix things based on feedback <- I just gave you feedback about one of your commits and you start ranting about how awful everyone here is and how bad Minetest's code base is
11:43	BlockMen	RealBadAngel, i read you complains here
11:44	RealBadAngel	i keep coding but it seems for no reason
11:45	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, good, please keep doing so
11:45	RealBadAngel	if i know something is wrong, tested, i can fix that
11:46	RealBadAngel	but not when code is lyin on the shelve
11:46	RealBadAngel	do you get it?
11:46	PilzAdam	your first reaction when I told you that you probably broke old behavior was [12:06:30] <RealBadAngel> PilzAdam, and you blame me for that? [12:07:08] <RealBadAngel> engine sucks balls not me :P
11:47	PilzAdam	then you attacked me about some completly different thing
11:47	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, sorry for that attidude
11:47	PilzAdam	then you started saying how bad Minetest was designed and that your code was the only correct thing to do; even if it breaks things
11:47	RealBadAngel	i know
11:47	RealBadAngel	but i want to push things
11:48	RealBadAngel	i can focus on things i broke or the things i may know whats broken in
11:49	PilzAdam	there is basically one main reason why I "blocked" most of your changes: you changes break stuff (which isn't that bad) but you also don't fix your bugs
11:49	PilzAdam	like your changes to the dropped items a while ago; I told you that they are too small now and hard to point at/collect
11:50	PilzAdam	you didn't fix this at all
11:50	RealBadAngel	ehm, i did
11:50	RealBadAngel	theyre now nice, rotating and flashy
11:51	RealBadAngel	ofc official repo is too outdated to accept that
11:52	PilzAdam	what?
11:53	RealBadAngel	highlighting code is takin source mesh
11:53	RealBadAngel	and is rotating the selection as source does
11:53	PilzAdam	why are you talking about highlighting now?
11:54	RealBadAngel	you mentioned items
11:54	RealBadAngel	i mentioned changes i did
11:54	PilzAdam	the visual size of items is too small after you change that made size depend on item count
11:54	PilzAdam	*your
11:54	RealBadAngel	halo comes this way
11:55	RealBadAngel	it puts the cube/mesh into copy of bigger size
11:55	RealBadAngel	doesnt it?
11:56	RealBadAngel	with smaller things i can add pulsation
11:57	RealBadAngel	grow the things over time wih sin
11:59	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, and yes, that was intentiona
11:59	RealBadAngel	piece of cobble has to be smaller than a whole stack
11:59	PilzAdam	it's way too hard to see and pick up saplings falling from trees now
12:00	RealBadAngel	maybe a fine tune is needed then
12:01	RealBadAngel	im not claimin to be an oracle
12:01	RealBadAngel	feel free to propose a change
12:02	PilzAdam	I did propose a change over 2 months ago
12:03	PilzAdam	also I mentioned that inventory_image was meant to also override the texture used for dropped items; your change broke that too
12:03	RealBadAngel	sorry, but every time i asked for your opinion you have chosen to not respond
12:03	PilzAdam	we even talked about adding a new drawtype for entities, like "wieldhand", but using the inventory_image
12:04	PilzAdam	but haven't fixed that
12:04	PilzAdam	and then you wonder why people don't accept your new changes
12:05	RealBadAngel	they cannot accept something thats not in
12:05	PilzAdam	this is not meant to attack you or to put you under pressure; I just want you to understand why I tend to "block" your new changes
12:05	PilzAdam	you seem to not care about them after they got merged
12:06	RealBadAngel	and sorry to say most of you (except of kahrl maybe) dont know what im doing
12:06	RealBadAngel	i would like to push fixes
12:07	RealBadAngel	i really would
12:07	RealBadAngel	but i am not allowed to do so
12:08	PilzAdam	I don't see pull requests to fix the item size issue
12:09	RealBadAngel	beacause i still do have another issuses open?
12:09	PilzAdam	bugfixes have higher priority then your new / other pull requests
12:10	PilzAdam	*than
12:10	RealBadAngel	i know what branches are for
12:10	RealBadAngel	ok
12:11	RealBadAngel	lets talk items size
12:11	PilzAdam	do you need a comparison screenshot?
12:11	RealBadAngel	is there a proposal?
12:12	RealBadAngel	talk me code
12:12	PilzAdam	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/18fe277d949a82fcc6fbc47c734df514d3ea1f52#diff-8d585596eb0f55074bb385d0a609f570L18
12:12	PilzAdam	here, you change visual size from 0.5 to 0.3
12:13	PilzAdam	thats definitely too small for saplings
12:13	RealBadAngel	i see
12:14	RealBadAngel	but i strongly suggest do not touch it now
12:14	RealBadAngel	i am doing caching of meshes atm
12:14	PilzAdam	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/18fe277d949a82fcc6fbc47c734df514d3ea1f52?diff=unified#diff-8d585596eb0f55074bb385d0a609f570R46
12:14	RealBadAngel	at startup
12:15	PilzAdam	and here it's even worse; you make it 0.15 for single item stacks
12:15	RealBadAngel	it was at purpose
12:16	RealBadAngel	so one cobble is small compared to whole stack
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12:17	Zeno`	I dunno, Pilz. They look ok to me
12:18	PilzAdam	RealBadAngel, as I said, at leasts for saplings is too small
12:18	Zeno`	Pilz, what is "too small"?
12:19	RealBadAngel	lack of glasses
12:19	PilzAdam	Zeno`, they are like half the size they previously had
12:20	Zeno`	I think that's a far less worse regression than the inventory/craft-grid regression
12:20	RealBadAngel	"before" is not meaning the same as "now" neihter "good"
12:21	RealBadAngel	and term "used to" used on dev branch is like a joke
12:24	RealBadAngel	open an issue with it, describe what you want, if you will have upvotes, i will think bout it
12:24	RealBadAngel	fair?
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12:27	RealBadAngel	anyway, goin to take a nap now
12:28	PilzAdam	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1706
12:28	RealBadAngel	celeron55_, you should rea above
12:30	celeron55_	so you made them smaller and now they are too small?
12:30	celeron55_	they were fine before, why did you change them
12:30	celeron55_	seems like a trivial revert to me
12:30	jin_xi	size now shows how many are in a stack, so single ones are small
12:31	celeron55_	that's tupid
12:31	celeron55_	+s
12:31	RealBadAngel	imho they represent the number of itemsin the stack
12:31	celeron55_	it's stupid
12:31	celeron55_	if there are many, make it look like many
12:32	RealBadAngel	yes, its how it works
12:32	Zeno`	well, the broken "Add inventory right click drag and drop" is a trivial revert as well
12:32	celeron55_	big != many
12:33	RealBadAngel	single item == small whole stack == big
12:33	Zeno`	at least until it's fixed to behave in a more sane manner, which kharl has suggested it will be
12:33	PilzAdam	I added a screenshot to the issue
12:33	celeron55_	(i'm not going to argue further; you know my opinion now)
12:36	PilzAdam	Zeno`, what is broken about it?
12:37	Zeno`	PilzAdam, it behaves in a non-standard manner (compared to every other UI ever created)
12:37	RealBadAngel	celeron55_, youre head: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1685
12:37	Zeno`	if you right-click drag, you do not expect it to drop (or swap!) things the mouse happens to cross over
12:38	Zeno`	anyway, wait
12:38	Zeno`	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1704
12:38	Zeno`	my patch is not right
12:38	Zeno`	but the idea is there
12:38	RealBadAngel	celeron55_, youre going to pretend im doin anythin, im doing it wrong ot close your eyes?
12:38	PilzAdam	Zeno`, it behaves exactly the way I expected it to work
12:39	Zeno`	PilzAdam, it does not behave how I expected it to behave
12:39	PilzAdam	and AFAIK it works in MC the same way, so your argument that itÃ„s different from any other UI is invalid
12:39	Zeno`	you right-click and move something and it drops and swaps?
12:39	PilzAdam	s/Ã„/'/
12:39	Zeno`	that doesn't make sense
12:39	Zeno`	it doesn't work the same way in MC
12:40	Zeno`	in MC you have to hold shift (IIRC) to get that behaviour
12:40	Zeno`	and, not totally related, isn't inventory lag already bad enough without adding this?
12:40	PenguinDad	Zeno`: you don't have to hold shift for that
12:42	Zeno`	PenguinDad, I will use the same analogy as last night. If you right click and drag an icon in your DE you do NOT expect it to drop and/or swap with something in a window just because the mouse move crosses over into that window
12:42	PilzAdam	"Drag item stacks around with the right mouse button to place one of that stack in each dragged-over slot, if that slot is not occupied already. "
12:42	Zeno`	you expect it to drop when you release
12:42	PilzAdam	from MC wiki
12:42	kaeza	the only thing different from MC, is that in MC you must click the stack to take it, and then right click and hold
12:42	Zeno`	PilzAdam, how to drop half the stack into another slot?
12:43	PilzAdam	Zeno`, right click the slot, and the left click on the other slot
12:43	PilzAdam	(without holding right click, of course)
12:43	Zeno`	not very intuitive
12:44	celeron55_	RealBadAngel: dunno, i think you and i should be more concerned about whether other people like it than whether we like it
12:44	Zeno`	holding right button means... hold
12:44	Zeno`	not drop
12:44	PilzAdam	holding right click to fill multiple slots with a single item is the logical consequence of a single right click to place one item
12:44	Zeno`	I disagree
12:45	Zeno`	and so does every UI study out there
12:45	PilzAdam	Zeno`, so you generally disagree with the idea that holding a stack in your mouse is possible without holding a mouse button?
12:45	Zeno`	in general, yes
12:45	PilzAdam	ok, then thats a different issue
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12:46	PenguinDad	Zeno`: this would be totally unintuitive to me :/
12:46	PilzAdam	the RMB holding to place single items fits the current style of the inventory; if you want to change the whole style of the inventory then don't focus on one feature
12:47	Zeno`	no, no, the current inventory (before that commit) worked perfectly intuitively
12:47	kaeza	aren't there things more important to be concerned about than another "OMG lava is not renewable"-style boycott?
12:47	shadowzone	Hi Zeno`.
12:47	Zeno`	this is not like that kaeza
12:48	Zeno`	this is a usability issue
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12:48	PenguinDad	Zeno`: but it's a very subjective usability issue
12:48	PilzAdam	Zeno`, you seem to be the only person who doesn't like the current style
12:49	Zeno`	I love the current style. I dislike the new style
12:49	Zeno`	and, no, I'm not the only person
12:49	Zeno`	VanessaE and ShadowNinja agree that it's not correct
12:49	PilzAdam	you like the current style? there was never "hold to move items"
12:50	Zeno`	PilzAdam, revert to just before that commit and try it
12:50	Amaz	I think you should remember that Minetest is not a DE, Zeno...
12:50	kaeza	I've used the "right click source, click target" style and I don't think it hinders the usability in any way, but that said, the new feature is kinda different from MC
12:50	Zeno`	it's not a DE, but that part of it is a UI
12:51	Zeno`	I never implied that it was a DE btw
12:51	kaeza	in MC, you can drag & drop with any button
12:51	Zeno`	I was using a DE as an analogy
12:51	PilzAdam	Zeno`, you are right; I was not aware that this worked before
12:51	Amaz	Sorry.
12:52	Amaz	I read UI studies as DE studies.
12:52	kaeza	the feature being discussed, in MC, is only activated after grabbing an item, and started by [right-]clicking on an empty space
12:52	kaeza	(and dragging)
12:55	Zeno`	that would be ok kaeza
12:55	Zeno`	because it requires an... "interaction" by the user to say "yes, do this"
12:56	Amaz	That would work nicely.
12:56	PilzAdam	I agree to what ShadowNinja said here: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1704#issuecomment-57382533
12:59	casimir	btw. swapping items was an issue even before that commit (for left click).
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14:13	BlockMen	comments on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1694 ?
14:14	Amaz	Merge!
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14:33	PilzAdam	BlockMen, seems good, but someone should definitely rework the settings tab so there is enough place to add all settings
14:34	BlockMen	for that we need a larger formspec/mm maybe?
14:35	PilzAdam	maybe just a scrollbar
14:37	BlockMen	or dynamic. scrollbar on small screens/windowsize larger formspec on larger screens/windowsize
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14:45	BlockMen	sfan5, ok with mergin https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/323 ?
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14:58	iqualfragile	another way of eleminating the grid would be to use a texture that is bigger then one block
14:58	iqualfragile	preferably a prime number
14:58	iqualfragile	but that would have to be optional, as it really changes the look a lot
14:58	iqualfragile	would be great for landscapes
15:27	Atlas\|1618033	Have you thought about rotating the textures? Use the same texture but randomly flip and rotate it to break up the pattern. It might be less intensive than applying individual textures to each node.
15:28	PilzAdam	Atlas\|1618033, that would require a way for mods to disable it, since it would look weird for e.g. chests
15:29	sfan5	>that would require a way for mods to disable it, since it would look weird for e.g. chests
15:29	sfan5	what does prevent us from doing that?
15:29	Atlas\|1618033	Only apply it to naturally occuring nodes
15:30	PilzAdam	sfan5, nothing?
15:31	sfan5	PilzAdam: why are you saying "we can, but ..." then?
15:31	PilzAdam	Atlas\|1618033, tree nodes occur "naturally"
15:31	PilzAdam	sfan5, it was meant as "if someone is going to do that then keep in mind that..."
15:31	sfan5	I see
15:32	Atlas\|1618033	PilzAdam: Yeah, true. But we could cut those out as well.
15:33	Atlas\|1618033	Water and lava should wait. Don't know what it would do to liquids...
15:33	PilzAdam	something like textures = {[1] = {"default_grass.png", randomize=true}} would work best, I guess
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15:39	Atlas\|1618033	My concern would be the overhead involved having to calculate it per node. Perhaps only applying it to grass nodes at first to see what happens.
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19:06	VanessaE	randomly flipping/rotating a texture would just plain look horrible, honestly. However, being able to randomly choose between several textures would work.
19:07	sfan5	^
19:07	VanessaE	I believe there's a mod that does this
19:08	VanessaE	but of course it does so by defining lots of new nodes
19:08	sfan5	which is not exactly a good idea
19:09	VanessaE	yeah
19:13	VanessaE	there IS that "special tiles" feature that was being worked on (is that in mainline? I don't remember). It could easily be exploited to this end.
19:13	VanessaE	at least for two textures anyway
19:19	ShadowNinja	Comments please? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pulls/ShadowNinja
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19:21	sapier	same as before, if you add a version api you'll enable mods to do things bases uppon a version number which may or may not tell anything about the really supported features on forks
19:21	VanessaE	ah HAH
19:21	VanessaE	THERE HE IS
19:21	VanessaE	pounce
19:21	BlockMen	ShadowNinja, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1694#issuecomment-57516988
19:23	ShadowNinja	sapier: Yes, thet's why I just provide the strings, not the version numbers.
19:23	ShadowNinja	that*
19:23	VanessaE	sfan5: I think this one was it: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8128
19:23	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Oh, didn't see that. :-P
19:23	sapier	minetest modders are known for "creative" solutions. Having just a different datatype is almost a invitation ;-)
19:24	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: BTW, _game#323 looks good.
19:24	BlockMen	well, sfan5 did not aswer yet
19:24	ShadowNinja	(Or whatever 32* one it was you mentioned, the grass time one)
19:24	ShadowNinja	tile*
19:24	BlockMen	i asked if hes ok with mergin
19:25	BlockMen	ShadowNinja, concering the preload items cb, do we rly need to keep it?
19:25	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Can't you at least consider opinions from the other devs? :-[
19:25	sfan5	I would've answered if not * BlockMen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:25	sfan5	BlockMen: yes, ok with that
19:25	BlockMen	i think its not something to be chaned that often
19:25	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Nah, that's O.K.
19:25	BlockMen	ok, so can i merge my pull then?
19:25	ShadowNinja	We need a better settings menu though.
19:26	ShadowNinja	Auto-generated too, so you just add the setting and it's type to a list.
19:26	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Seems O.K. to me. Does it look good without a seperate texture?
19:27	BlockMen	well, not great
19:27	BlockMen	but thats why i added a new drawtype
19:27	BlockMen	and not changed the glasslike to do that jib
19:27	BlockMen	so all that use that new drawtype are supposed to provide two textures
19:28	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: You need to find a way to make it look good with all modes.
19:28	BlockMen	^ thats impossible
19:28	BlockMen	and you know that
19:28	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: special_times?
19:28	ShadowNinja	special_tiles*
19:29	BlockMen	to make that work i would also need to change glasslike_framed
19:29	BlockMen	and i think then RBA would complain
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19:31	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Well, any comments on my pulls ^?
19:32	sapier	did anyone care about the font sizes fixes by now?
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19:33	ShadowNinja	sapier: I don't like that your patch adds so many font files. Is there a good reason not to go freetype-only?
19:33	sapier	yes, we don't even have it as defaul
19:33	sapier	t
19:34	sapier	and freetype code is buggy as hell, do you want to maintain it?
19:34	ShadowNinja	sapier: So? If we remove the option for non-freetype builds freetype will be the default.
19:34	sapier	not freetype itself the freetype adapter
19:34	ShadowNinja	sapier: No, I don't know much about freetype, but it seems like it's a lot better than the image method.
19:34	BlockMen	ShadowNinja, for what we need versions API?
19:34	sapier	I did look at it to fix it but I don't wanna learn freetype internals
19:35	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Informational purposes.
19:35	BlockMen	hmm...
19:36	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Eg, "Minetest version 0.4.10, IRC mod version 0.2" when running /CTCP MinetestServer VERSION on a minetest server with the IRC mod.
19:36	sapier	ShadowNinja: in theory it's better but actually our freetype code just renders the freetype font to textures resulting in almost same as those pictures. One major difference, that "rendering code" is not checking anything
19:37	ShadowNinja	sapier: Hmmm, and I guess adding proper freetype support to Irrlicht is more than we can handle?
19:37	sapier	I'd suggest to switch to freetype once irrlicht does support it natively but not while we're using that ugly adapter
19:38	sapier	I'm quite sure I don't know enough about fonts to even fix that adapte
19:38	sapier	r
19:38	BlockMen	sapier, does it allow using more than one font or just another way to change skin font?
19:39	BlockMen	ShadowNinja, so its mainly for IRC mod?
19:39	sapier	right now we have two fonts, it's not fully generic
19:39	sapier	but changes wouldn't be that big, yet we don't even support different font sizes within minetest ;-)
19:40	BlockMen	ik :\
19:40	sapier	my patch would support them but without minetest using it ;-)
19:40	sapier	and that patch is only half of it, the second part are those formspec fixes from the guy refusing to use github ;-)
19:41	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: That's the use case I have in mind. It could also be used to remove get_server_status and build the string in Lua (hmmm, we already have access to the version anyway, just in a harder-to-access format).
19:43	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: My API provides access to the full version hash though, not just the simple string.
19:44	sapier	to be honest as most ppl here usually refuse to even support stable version with their mods I doubt those ppl will fix their mods for different versions
19:46	BlockMen	ShadowNinja, i thought current get_version() is mm only?
19:48	sapier	You're right blockmen, at least I didn't add it to minetest api on implementing it (unless it's been merged by accident)
19:48	sapier	e.g. when scriptapi was refactored
19:49	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: "mm only"?
19:49	BlockMen	mm = main menu
19:49	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Oh, yes, it is.
19:50	BlockMen	so the main question is not string vs. complete version info
19:50	BlockMen	the question is: should mods get acces to versions
19:50	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: The game only has get_server_status, which can be parsed for the version string.
19:51	BlockMen	oh, ic
19:51	ShadowNinja	(Which I WILL implement in the IRC mod if I can't get a proper API function for it.)
19:57	BlockMen	ShadowNinja, why VERSION_EXTRA_STRING ?
19:58	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Because it might be usefull.
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19:59	BlockMen	i think its an bad idea. mods could exclude single versions/builds
19:59	BlockMen	im against adding this
20:00	BlockMen	this = version extra
20:01	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Alright, otherwise O.K.?
20:02	BlockMen	ShadowNinja, if "minetest_version_hash" does not contain the version extra aswell, yes
20:03	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: I think hash does, but you'd have to parse the version-extra out, which mods can already do with get_server_status.
20:04	BlockMen	get_server_status returns minetest_version_simple
20:04	BlockMen	so no, they can currently not
20:04	ShadowNinja	Trying to make it impossible for mods to exclude versions is pointless and counter-intuitive. Mods can provide a warning that a specific build is broken in a certain way and that they hould expect a certain bug if you let them.
20:05	BlockMen	wait, wait. you told me mods should not be able to override the ids of statbars (because that would be bad), but they should be able to exclude certain builds
20:06	ShadowNinja	Eg, say 0.4.10 had a bug that causes flashing textures with that mod. You can warn users about that and avoid getting spammed with "FIx plx" issues about that.
20:06	BlockMen	could you be so nice and find a sane line what mods should be able to and what not
20:07	ShadowNinja	Mods should be able to do just about anything that doesn't break security, but certain things are almost always bad and should be discouraged.
20:07	BlockMen	lol
20:07	BlockMen	so mods can disallow certain builds but the statbar is protected once and for all
20:07	ShadowNinja	It's not funny, I'm getting quite tired of this.
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20:07	BlockMen	its indeed not funny
20:08	BlockMen	get your version by server_status
20:08	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Also, I'm not sure what you're refering to.
20:08	BlockMen	thats enough
20:10	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Alright, doing that now.
20:12	ShadowNinja	I can't get the PROJECT_NAME this way though, so it will show up as "Minetest" even with other forks.
20:14	ShadowNinja	http://sprunge.us/cXYD?diff
20:18	ShadowNinja	Works with some tweaks: * Received CTCP-VERSION answer from TestServer: Minetest version 0.4.10-dev, IRC mod version 0.2.0.
20:20	ShadowNinja	https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-irc/commit/d0ebde388419fcf102d8397d392cf652f313a2fb
20:20	ShadowNinja	^ That was about 20x easier than arguing about implementing a cleaner way to do it.
20:20	ShadowNinja	And took even less time.
20:21	ShadowNinja	It only takes about 4 lines too, so it's not all that bad.
20:22	ShadowNinja	A whole lot better than my method that looked for the executable, opened it, read it into memory, and searched for the VER= in the build_info.
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20:30	ShadowNinja	BlockMen: Next pull?
20:31	ShadowNinja	Ok, Taoki: I think you were looking for a way to get the version? See my method, if probably the most elegant way to get the version currently available, and, by the looks of it, that will ever be available.
20:32	ShadowNinja	Oh*
20:32	ShadowNinja	s/if/it is/
20:32	Taoki	ShadowNinja: Get what version?
20:32	ShadowNinja	Taoki: The Minetest core version.
20:33	Taoki	I already do with GIT, for years
20:34	ShadowNinja	Taoki: Oh, well this works on systemwide installs and builds without git. It also doesn't require os.execute. It doesn't give you the hash though.
20:34	sapier	I still don't understand why this is needed for regular operation of a mod ;-) yes it's nice to know but for what else then curiosity?
20:34	Taoki	What works? :P
20:35	ShadowNinja	Taoki: https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-irc/commit/d0ebde388419fcf102d8397d392cf652f313a2fb
20:35	ShadowNinja	sapier: I'm done arguing about it.
20:36	sapier	meaning your just gonna add it without argueing? ;-)
20:37	ShadowNinja	sapier: No, meaning I'm going to ignore it for a few more months and use hacky ways to get the version instead.
20:38	ShadowNinja	sapier: Feel free to approve one of my other pulls though. :-)
20:38	sapier	for what do you use the version number?
20:39	ShadowNinja	sapier: /connect irc.inchra.net; /ctcp ShadowServer version
20:39	sapier	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1631/files can someone explain to me why we replace a speaking name by a nonsense name?
20:40	ShadowNinja	sapier: Argue with iqualfragile about that.
20:40	sapier	ShadowNinja did you try your code?
20:41	ShadowNinja	sapier: What code?
20:41	sapier	for what I tried "asInt()" doesn't work for that crapy json lib
20:41	sapier	nor anything else except "asString()"
20:41	ShadowNinja	sapier: Oh, yes, it works, at least on my computer.
20:41	sapier	strange
20:42	sapier	If those "asType" functions would work lot of that code could be done way more simple
20:49	sapier	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1535 seems to be fine (code wise). Guess we can live with that const char* for some more time
20:49	sapier	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1418 completed?
20:49	sapier	if yes merge it
20:50		sapier left #minetest-dev
21:09	hmmmm	ooh what's going on
21:10	hmmmm	looks like I missed it :(
21:17	proller	1535 - nooooo
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22:02	ShadowNinja	proller: Open thousands of files and write to them every few seconds, plus a final write at shutdown? You must just want MT to be slower to make FM look better. Before my changes I saw my disk usage spike to 80-100% for 2-3 seconds on every save interval (which was why I had said interval at about 15 seconds instead of the default of 5 seconds or something like that).
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22:12	hmmmm	heh
22:13	hmmmm	no matter what minetest does - short of merging it in - would make minetest as bad as freeminer
22:14	hmmmm	my real life friend got hooked onto minetest about a month ago and found freeminer on google and read that it was supposed to be a better version so he tried that out
22:14	proller	why "Open thousands of files" ?
22:14	hmmmm	he said that it often crashed, was very buggy, and he much preferred minetest
22:16	proller	ShadowNinja, your patch fixes consequences of very bad design by uglifying code
22:17	proller	and not solves real problem
22:18	proller	hmmmm, what you make for minetest in last year except cool jokes about freeminer ?
22:18	ShadowNinja	The few times I've looked at freeminer's commit history I've found that the majority of the commits were fixes.
22:19	hmmmm	i won't deny that i haven't done much, but that doesn't change the fact that freeminer is a prime example of what minetest would have become if we let him have his way with the codebase
22:19	hmmmm	oh god, I'm so glad freeminer is a separate project
22:20	ShadowNinja	Also, anyone: http://strawpoll.me/2687768
22:21	proller	and lot of fixes about mt code
22:21	kahrl	ShadowNinja: missing #5: I don't care because I /ignored him
22:21	proller	now nobody build/test freeminer under windows
22:22	shadowzone	o.O
22:22	shadowzone	Who is proller?
22:22	proller	under linux some problems exists, but fixes ^ in progress
22:23	shadowzone	Cause I'm not gonna vote till I find out.
22:23	ShadowNinja	kahrl: That goes as "Yes", since you've already done it, just not globally.
22:24	ShadowNinja	shadowzone: He's talking in here. You might have him on /ignore.
22:24	shadowzone	I don't.
22:24	shadowzone	I've never even heard of him.
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22:25	exio4	he was(is?) a coredev
22:25	ShadowNinja	shadowzone: http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2014-10-01#i_3957766
22:25	ShadowNinja	exio4: Was.
22:25	exio4	k
22:26	shadowzone	What'd he do?
22:28	ShadowNinja	shadowzone: He trolls and is generally unhelpfull and annoying. Just about all he does is criticise Minetest, it's devs, and the code they write; while telling us about how everything is fixed in Freeminer.
22:28	shadowzone	OH.
22:28	proller	yes, saving players problem was solved in freeminer ;)
22:28	shadowzone	So a pain in the butt?
22:29	proller	ans solved from root without uglyfying code
22:29	proller	because i understand what i do
22:29	shadowzone	I voted.
22:39	proller	ShadowNinja, and im criticise only bad or useless code
22:44	Atlas\|1618033	If this is the usual goings on in here, I think I can drop my cable...
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