| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:05 |
iqualfragile |
no, actual outdated links, to the forum to be more specific |
| 00:24 |
ShadowNinja |
Outdated, but they still work due to my compat code. I'll fix them... |
| 00:31 |
ShadowNinja |
Done. |
| 00:47 |
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| 12:30 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: I can merge the big-endian fixing patch, right? |
| 12:33 |
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| 13:47 |
iqualfragile |
question: should i migrate the mmdb to use the new forum user database as authentification backend or migrate the old accounts into the native django acount format? |
| 13:48 |
sapier |
hmmm what about mixed mode? |
| 13:49 |
sapier |
wait native django would be a separate db ? |
| 13:52 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: table, seperate table |
| 13:52 |
iqualfragile |
but it could as well be put in a seperate database, yes |
| 13:52 |
sapier |
so you'd need a separate password compared to same pw on using the forum auth? |
| 13:52 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: yes |
| 13:53 |
sapier |
then I'm for for forum auth |
| 13:53 |
sapier |
forcing users to remember another password wont help mmdb acceptance |
| 14:18 |
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| 15:01 |
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| 15:14 |
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| 15:14 |
RealBadAngel |
hi sapier |
| 15:15 |
RealBadAngel |
whos about to push the changes we made yesterday? i mean no wrap and height instead of ascender? |
| 15:31 |
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| 15:53 |
RealBadAngel |
proller, how about contributing back with kv storage? |
| 15:54 |
proller |
why? |
| 15:54 |
RealBadAngel |
because you are takin everythin? give somethin in exchange :) |
| 15:55 |
RealBadAngel |
and mainly because im askin you |
| 15:56 |
proller |
its not my code |
| 15:58 |
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| 16:16 |
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| 16:19 |
RealBadAngel |
you have modified it numerous times already |
| 16:20 |
RealBadAngel |
but thats not the point |
| 16:21 |
RealBadAngel |
we can go hard way if you want |
| 16:21 |
RealBadAngel |
i will forbid to use shaders code in freemier |
| 16:21 |
proller |
how? |
| 16:21 |
RealBadAngel |
simply, by adding explicit rule |
| 16:22 |
sapier |
RealBadAngel: I tried yesterday but could you post the final changes, you mentioned some additional locations where to use height |
| 16:22 |
sapier |
RealBadAngel: sad to tell you, but you can't |
| 16:22 |
RealBadAngel |
rly? |
| 16:22 |
sapier |
if you add a rule like that we can't use it in minetest either |
| 16:22 |
RealBadAngel |
its not fuckin fair |
| 16:23 |
proller |
8-) |
| 16:23 |
proller |
no, 8-P |
| 16:23 |
RealBadAngel |
hes takin everythin he wants to |
| 16:23 |
sapier |
well that's the downside of lgpl |
| 16:23 |
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| 16:24 |
RealBadAngel |
and im just askin for kv |
| 16:24 |
sapier |
even if he did want to do he couldn't |
| 16:25 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmm, is that possible to take ones code and relicense it? |
| 16:25 |
RealBadAngel |
under different one? |
| 16:25 |
sapier |
no the only one who can do relicensing is copyright owner |
| 16:25 |
sapier |
and copyright stays at author if not explicitly transfered |
| 16:25 |
RealBadAngel |
so how the fuck is he relicensing mt? |
| 16:26 |
sapier |
he can't |
| 16:26 |
RealBadAngel |
freeminer is another license |
| 16:26 |
sapier |
the code from minetest included in freeminer is still lgpl but anything added is gpl |
| 16:27 |
RealBadAngel |
how can you tell which line is under which license> |
| 16:27 |
sapier |
actually thats the problem ;-) |
| 16:28 |
sapier |
as there's no (usable) way to do you'll have to use the most limiting one and for freeminer it's gpl |
| 16:28 |
sapier |
of course you could git blame every file and track down each parts origin |
| 16:29 |
RealBadAngel |
weird |
| 16:29 |
RealBadAngel |
proller why cant you just share the code? |
| 16:31 |
proller |
why me? |
| 16:31 |
proller |
its not my code |
| 16:31 |
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| 16:31 |
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| 16:32 |
sapier |
freeminer is already dead end as of minetests perspective amount of work to get code from there is most likely same as writing that code ourselfs |
| 16:33 |
proller |
also you cant write same code if you looket at freeminer code ;) |
| 16:33 |
sapier |
I don't even look there |
| 16:33 |
sapier |
useless work |
| 16:37 |
sapier |
RealBadAngel: what's state of your shader fixes are they completed yet? |
| 16:39 |
sapier |
np |
| 16:39 |
sapier |
oops wrong text field .. I'm gonna merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1395 in a few minutes |
| 16:55 |
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| 17:00 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: That's what I asked you. ;-) I saw discussion about it but wasn't sure what the conclusion was. |
| 17:06 |
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| 17:07 |
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| 17:14 |
LemonLake |
Been experimenting with html-less css stylesheets |
| 17:14 |
LemonLake |
by that I mean using no html for the styling :p I used the mt mod recorder as a practice, hows it look? http://i.imgur.com/XpTwEGU.jpg?1 |
| 17:14 |
ShadowNinja |
http://sprunge.us/QiEd?diff <-- Comments? |
| 17:15 |
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| 17:15 |
LemonLake |
wait, I'll get a non-jpg screen |
| 17:15 |
ShadowNinja |
Also, any objections to setting preload_item_visuals off by default? It substantially lowers load time and doesn't affect inventory opening time very much. |
| 17:15 |
LemonLake |
Waaiiit |
| 17:15 |
LemonLake |
Soz guys, wrong chan lol :P you kept sending msgs so it auto-put it here |
| 17:18 |
ShadowNinja |
For reference: It takes about 3 seconds to join my server, and about 1 second to open the inventory (UI, so lots of items) without preload_item_visuals, and about 40 seconds to join with about 0.2 seonds to open the inventory with it enabled. |
| 17:23 |
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| 17:48 |
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| 17:48 |
sapier |
I agree to disabling preload item visuals ... it's due for way to long ;-) |
| 17:50 |
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| 17:54 |
Calinou |
disable by default, preload only if it's useful (to not annoy players during gameplay) |
| 17:54 |
Calinou |
when items preload, they'll often do when the player is in inventory, not fighting a mob or such |
| 17:55 |
Calinou |
anyway I'm disappointed of the issue triaging: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1362 → this is very easy to do, so how is this low priority? I think priority should take difficulty into account |
| 17:55 |
Calinou |
easier to do = less incentive to not do it |
| 17:55 |
Calinou |
but thanks for adding it to milestone anyway |
| 17:56 |
sapier |
as far as I remember I haven't added that label guess it's due to possible discussions that could arise about this ... or did you manage to get consens to this on? |
| 17:56 |
sapier |
+e |
| 17:57 |
ShadowNinja |
Calinou: A algorithm hasn't been decided on, and there are more important things to do. |
| 17:58 |
ShadowNinja |
And it shouldn't be on the milestone, we want to finish 0.4.10 soon. |
| 17:59 |
sapier |
I guess that's not gonna be a issue to delay 0.4.10 ... there are other way more critical things ;-) |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
anything else is better than current system |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
the current one is totally wrong and there are at least two tables that fix it |
| 18:01 |
Calinou |
sapier, RealBadAngel said he tested it, but didn't comment anything in particular |
| 18:03 |
ShadowNinja |
Why is this on the milestone? The system has received many changes so the bug may no longer exist: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/793 |
| 18:04 |
sapier |
droping it is a way to fix it for next milestone too |
| 18:06 |
ShadowNinja |
No more milestone issues unless they're important bugs. |
| 18:06 |
sapier |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1343 is this worth to be added to 0.4.10 or shall it wait for next version? |
| 18:06 |
sapier |
android port is important for 0.4.10 |
| 18:06 |
sapier |
it's time to release it |
| 18:07 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: Definitely for later since the formspecs should be redone. |
| 18:07 |
Calinou |
keep in mind, redoing formspec likely breaks all mods |
| 18:07 |
sapier |
I can't hear that damn excuse any longer |
| 18:07 |
ShadowNinja |
Calinou: Not with a converter. |
| 18:08 |
Calinou |
then redo them; I'm around to fix my mods anyway |
| 18:08 |
Calinou |
but not everyone is |
| 18:08 |
ShadowNinja |
We need a solid specification first though. Should I create an issue? |
| 18:08 |
sapier |
next one claiming improving formspec isn't an option without providing a replacement is gonna pay me a drink |
| 18:09 |
sapier |
non-alcoholic ... otherwise I'll die from alcohol |
| 18:09 |
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| 18:10 |
sapier |
yet the fstk ingame addons can wait till after 0.4.10 that's not the topic here |
| 18:11 |
sapier |
#1359 #1370 and the final android port pull are crucial for android porting please test them in order to get them merged |
| 18:12 |
sapier |
ShadowNinja: have a look if there isn't already something like "formspec must die" |
| 18:13 |
sapier |
imho we don't need a spec ... the only sane way is using a existing gui description language |
| 18:16 |
sapier |
https://github.com/sapier/minetest/commit/8bb87b57fbc4632103b03da36f606dc83d505f5e hmmmm can you have a look at this one? for what I found out merging those two flags doesn't do any harm in typical case and will only add some performance overhead in quite uncommon silly cases |
| 18:21 |
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| 18:25 |
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| 18:28 |
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| 18:29 |
sapier |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=138276 can some forum mod please cleanup the non declaration posts in there? |
| 18:31 |
ShadowNinja |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1399 |
| 18:34 |
sapier |
already seen and commented ;-P |
| 18:41 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: Moved a bunch to trash. |
| 18:41 |
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| 18:50 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1398 should be a pull request. |
| 18:52 |
sapier |
will be done once it's usefull |
| 18:52 |
sapier |
right now I'd have to create a new pull once a day because it's based on other pulls |
| 18:53 |
sapier |
and rebasing fails terribly for that one |
| 18:53 |
sapier |
I'll add a link to latest code |
| 19:02 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: I can't parse this: Additionally this translation I mentioned is acually what specifies the API not the low level format as anything not translated is by definition not part of it. |
| 19:03 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: Also, you can obviously do the same checks, eg "if not element.text then return "text us required" end" |
| 19:03 |
ShadowNinja |
(In C++) |
| 19:04 |
sapier |
you can always do additional work but what's the point of replacing it if nothing improves? |
| 19:05 |
RealBadAngel |
Sapier, before 0.4.10 i do not plan any further work on shaders |
| 19:05 |
ShadowNinja |
I don't understand what you mean by translation. And the serialization method is an irrelivant implementation detail. |
| 19:05 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: What? |
| 19:06 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: Even adding keyed fields to the original format would be immensly helpfull, but it's still ugly, hard to read, and hard to manipulate. |
| 19:06 |
RealBadAngel |
next step is introduce multiple rendering passes, rendering buffers and rendering to textures |
| 19:07 |
sapier |
ShadowNinja: imho the improvement by adding tables is far from big enough to justify the work required to translate it to actual gui elements |
| 19:07 |
proller |
goood ;) |
| 19:08 |
RealBadAngel |
that gonna allow reflections, refractions, and all the post process effects |
| 19:08 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: You're already doing the same work for the current format. |
| 19:08 |
sapier |
be carefull about rendering to textures rba there are quite a lot of android devices out there not supporting it and still some (intel) gpus having issues too |
| 19:08 |
ShadowNinja |
My version has auto-positioning though, which requires a little more work. |
| 19:09 |
sapier |
ShadowNinja: the main difference is I actually specify the api you suggest providing just a format not giving any api wise help to use it ... fstk does this implicit by providing the functions |
| 19:09 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: I don't think shaders not working on Android is a concern, due to their low power. |
| 19:09 |
RealBadAngel |
sapier, that is definitely not intended to use with pseudo computers ;) |
| 19:10 |
RealBadAngel |
we are talkin here about high end visual fx |
| 19:10 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: Ah, yes, some DOM/FSTK-like API could be added. |
| 19:10 |
sapier |
actually I'd prefere some existing language |
| 19:10 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier: But standard Lua functions already let you deal with this easily. |
| 19:10 |
ShadowNinja |
like table.* |
| 19:10 |
RealBadAngel |
i agree with SN |
| 19:11 |
RealBadAngel |
tables are what we need |
| 19:11 |
ShadowNinja |
And you can do indexing with standard Lua indexes instead of havilg to parse or generate it. |
| 19:12 |
sapier |
problem with what you suggest is that it's not helpfull at all without a lot of additional documentation and code checking those tables |
| 19:12 |
ShadowNinja |
Eg, formspec[4].tabs.list.elements[1] = "New text" |
| 19:12 |
ShadowNinja |
s/list/List/ |
| 19:13 |
sapier |
who does the "tabs" decoding? |
| 19:13 |
sapier |
who checks for consitency |
| 19:13 |
sapier |
how to tell user what's inconsistent |
| 19:13 |
sapier |
yes that'a all solvable ... but it's a lot of work |
| 19:14 |
sapier |
and what happens if someone wants two use two independent tab header elements in a single form for example |
| 19:15 |
sapier |
if you use tabs you give away the implicit order the current formspecs are written thus you can't tell any longer "last one is to be the one displayed" |
| 19:16 |
sapier |
because within a tab there ain't a order ... well unless you define any tab to not have a name but a index only |
| 19:22 |
RealBadAngel |
insted of finding possible holes in another solution try to say why it will be far better than current one ;) |
| 19:24 |
sapier |
there are so much holes in it it's most likely not gonna be better at all after those are fixed |
| 19:24 |
sapier |
in worst case you can do this in a way it's even worse |
| 19:24 |
sapier |
and not considering them at the beginning is the road to that worst case scenario |
| 19:25 |
sapier |
lua tables give full freedom to do anything ... but don't believe you don't have to pay the price for it ... and price for freedom usually is compexity |
| 19:27 |
sapier |
https://gist.github.com/sapier/cc2b30a55c7afe4e2572 makes ipv6 error a message only |
| 19:28 |
sapier |
any comments? |
| 19:30 |
jin_xi |
pls consider something like this: html/css for ui via external library. i dont think we need to invent and develop another ui system |
| 19:31 |
sapier |
that'd be my preferred way of replacing formspec too |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
tables are not thing to invent |
| 19:32 |
jin_xi |
tables are tables |
| 19:32 |
jin_xi |
we dont need tables |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
its a natural solution |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
we do have them |
| 19:32 |
sapier |
tables aren't the solution just the raw dataformat ... they're about 10% of your suggestion |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
easy to handle in lua, no need to add here anythin |
| 19:33 |
sapier |
I guess I could talk to a wall too |
| 19:33 |
jin_xi |
its going to be another implicit- and underspecified language |
| 19:33 |
jin_xi |
and end up like common lisp once fixed |
| 19:38 |
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| 19:40 |
sapier |
https://gist.github.com/sapier/ac00d80a1fc8b00f2c3d shows why tables are not a api |
| 19:41 |
sapier |
all of those variants will be capable to specify a gui but usually only one of them will be translatable by our parser |
| 19:43 |
RealBadAngel |
its like you have cut formspec string defining a button and stick it again in random order and complain why it is so fucked up ;) |
| 19:43 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc we will need some rules |
| 19:44 |
sapier |
come one don't you wanna understand that THOSE RULES are same crazy shit as formspecs are? |
| 19:44 |
sapier |
and those rules are the actual api not the tables |
| 19:45 |
sapier |
it'd be no big deal to translate formspec to tables because formspecs are way more specific |
| 19:45 |
RealBadAngel |
but theres one thing talkin pro tables, theyre native in lua |
| 19:45 |
RealBadAngel |
so manipulating them is extremaly easy |
| 19:46 |
RealBadAngel |
when we will introduce something like html/css we will end up with difficulty manipulating the elements |
| 19:46 |
sapier |
formspec is almost a typ0 grammar |
| 19:47 |
sapier |
not exactly true since tables have been added |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
formspec is just playing with lotsa glue |
| 19:47 |
sapier |
your tables will require even more glue |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
and then theres no option to edit/change, just do it again from scratch |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
no |
| 19:47 |
sapier |
of course |
| 19:48 |
sapier |
because your table still may break on any edit |
| 19:48 |
RealBadAngel |
break because of what? |
| 19:48 |
sapier |
pos = nil |
| 19:48 |
sapier |
boom broken |
| 19:49 |
RealBadAngel |
why broken? |
| 19:49 |
sapier |
tables give way more flexibility ... but at cost of way more complexity too |
| 19:49 |
sapier |
because a button with pos nil results in broken formspec |
| 19:49 |
sapier |
-formspec + gui |
| 19:50 |
RealBadAngel |
so parser just pisses on such element and skips it |
| 19:50 |
sapier |
and it's not the tables defining the gui but those rules |
| 19:50 |
RealBadAngel |
i dont see any problems there |
| 19:50 |
sapier |
then don't do it for a button but for a tab |
| 19:51 |
sapier |
I know if someone doesn't want to see the problem he wont see it ... it's always been same |
| 19:51 |
jin_xi |
the plan is to write a parser for lua tables? |
| 19:51 |
sapier |
but don't expect a full featured type1, maybe even type2 grammar to be less parsable then a almost type0 one |
| 19:51 |
RealBadAngel |
"parser" rather |
| 19:52 |
RealBadAngel |
iterate over table elements and fill in existing structures on c++ side |
| 19:52 |
sapier |
actually meant to be less effort to parse |
| 19:52 |
sapier |
iterate a tree? |
| 19:52 |
sapier |
level by level? branch by branch? |
| 19:53 |
sapier |
we've got lua you can do a prototype implementation there and see how much work it is |
| 19:54 |
RealBadAngel |
much less than with any other solution |
| 19:54 |
sapier |
I use tables in mobf so don't believe I haven't thought about it for fstk ... I decided not to use them because of being not specific enough and thus requireing way to much docs and check functions |
| 19:57 |
sapier |
still you're free to write a prototype in lua, straight forward implementation without checks and error handling will be a matter of days ... later one will require weeks |
| 19:59 |
sapier |
especially if you don't wanna have a use look for ages to find a missing parameter |
| 20:00 |
sapier |
e.g. if he did write tooItip instead of tooltip |
| 20:00 |
sfan5 |
relevant: something I made last year http://sprunge.us/XMhi?lua |
| 20:01 |
sapier |
looks almost like the prototype I mentioned, a year ago? and still no error handling ? ;-) |
| 20:02 |
sfan5 |
there is error handling |
| 20:02 |
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| 20:03 |
sapier |
how is it supposed to work? |
| 20:03 |
sfan5 |
tables goes in, formspec string comes out |
| 20:03 |
sapier |
oh I see if it's not known it's an error |
| 20:04 |
sapier |
does it handle missing parameters too? |
| 20:04 |
sfan5 |
sure |
| 20:04 |
sfan5 |
(it should) |
| 20:05 |
sapier |
and how are optionals handled? |
| 20:06 |
sfan5 |
see lines 93-107 |
| 20:07 |
sapier |
different lookup tables |
| 20:08 |
sapier |
ok so what'd be the difference to current formspecs ... modifying a form would be more easy |
| 20:08 |
sapier |
as your top level table is indexed it's most likely keep it's order too |
| 20:09 |
proller |
sapier, you need make your fork with keeping strings in formspec |
| 20:09 |
proller |
sapiertest ! |
| 20:10 |
sapier |
I don't wanna keep formspecs if there's a reasonable good replacement but I don't wanna have formspecs replaced by formspecs2 |
| 20:11 |
sapier |
sfan5 this most likely will improve writing of tables too ... but wont help for tabs |
| 20:13 |
sapier |
maybe we should first find out what a formspec replacement shall be capable to do |
| 20:16 |
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| 20:19 |
RealBadAngel |
easy of modyfing an element, removing it etc |
| 20:19 |
RealBadAngel |
without need to rewrite whole form |
| 20:19 |
sapier |
https://gist.github.com/sapier/8648a89011bfd0897f76 any additional requirements? |
| 20:20 |
RealBadAngel |
"detectable" is not needed |
| 20:20 |
RealBadAngel |
table can hold extra mods data for example |
| 20:20 |
sapier |
no |
| 20:20 |
sapier |
if you want this add some addon_params field |
| 20:21 |
RealBadAngel |
check for predefined fields |
| 20:21 |
RealBadAngel |
if type == "button" etc |
| 20:21 |
RealBadAngel |
this way parameters are flexible |
| 20:21 |
RealBadAngel |
you check if theyre provided or nil |
| 20:21 |
sapier |
additional data has to be separated from form data if you don't do it you never can tell if it's correct or not |
| 20:22 |
sapier |
that's implementation detail rba |
| 20:22 |
RealBadAngel |
but explainin your questions |
| 20:22 |
RealBadAngel |
table from its definition can hold anything |
| 20:22 |
sapier |
a table is a format not an api |
| 20:23 |
RealBadAngel |
its up to table reader what it looks for |
| 20:23 |
sapier |
lets do formspecs in bytes |
| 20:23 |
sapier |
a byte can hold anything |
| 20:23 |
sapier |
absolutely free to read and modify |
| 20:24 |
sapier |
... sorry forgot to enable the "ironic" tag ;-) |
| 20:24 |
RealBadAngel |
i got it ;) |
| 20:25 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, can i push this wordwrap and height thing? |
| 20:25 |
sapier |
it's still two true/false changes and two height changes? |
| 20:25 |
sapier |
or did you have to change other things too? |
| 20:26 |
RealBadAngel |
two true->false, one ascender->height |
| 20:26 |
sapier |
thought it's been two ascender-> height? |
| 20:26 |
RealBadAngel |
second was not so right, caused text in checkboxes not being in line with boxes |
| 20:27 |
RealBadAngel |
but a little bit lower |
| 20:28 |
sapier |
that's bad |
| 20:28 |
RealBadAngel |
not really |
| 20:29 |
RealBadAngel |
second was really meant as height of a character not line |
| 20:29 |
sapier |
I see |
| 20:29 |
sapier |
I already tested those 3 changes yesterday and it did look fine for me |
| 20:29 |
RealBadAngel |
so pushing |
| 20:32 |
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| 20:32 |
sapier |
https://gist.github.com/sapier/8648a89011bfd0897f76 any objections? if not I'm gonna push it next |
| 20:32 |
sapier |
fixes two issues |
| 20:36 |
RealBadAngel |
ahem, check it ;) |
| 20:36 |
proller |
sapier, your fork must have xml formspec |
| 20:36 |
RealBadAngel |
i mean the link ;) |
| 20:37 |
RealBadAngel |
unless youre going to push now formspecs replacement |
| 20:37 |
sapier |
lol ... I meant this one: https://gist.github.com/sapier/cc2b30a55c7afe4e2572 |
| 20:37 |
RealBadAngel |
damn youre fast ;) |
| 20:37 |
sapier |
I know I'm fast but not that fast ;-) |
| 20:40 |
RealBadAngel |
idk what above is for ;) |
| 20:40 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, since tooltips are in, we have lotsa work to do now |
| 20:41 |
sapier |
right now if you run minetest (debug build) on a machine without ipv6 support it immediatly exits with a very cryptic message not telling you anything about why it exited |
| 20:41 |
sapier |
I don't have work, you added it you're gonna add the descriptions ;-P |
| 20:42 |
RealBadAngel |
i do have my own rdy |
| 20:42 |
RealBadAngel |
but all of them will need translations too :) |
| 20:43 |
sapier |
guess what ... you're gonna have a lot of work to do to get your inventory ready for android |
| 20:43 |
sapier |
it's just tooo big |
| 20:44 |
sapier |
ok I'm pushing that ipv6 fix now |
| 20:46 |
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| 20:47 |
sapier |
does anyone know how to fix this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1389 ? |
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