| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:15 |
MichaelRpdx |
http://pastebin.com/wNxiQ2RM |
| 00:20 |
sapier |
interesting ... let me guess lock is held by 11988? |
| 00:22 |
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| 00:24 |
MichaelRpdx |
and yeah, but what is 11988? |
| 00:25 |
MichaelRpdx |
we're back to ??? |
| 00:25 |
MichaelRpdx |
I didn't see that earlier |
| 00:25 |
sapier1 |
11988 is the messed up thread |
| 00:25 |
MichaelRpdx |
yes, saw that. |
| 00:26 |
sapier1 |
sorry but I need to get some sleep that information seems to be helpfull I'll check tomorrow |
| 00:26 |
MichaelRpdx |
Sleeep is good. |
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| 16:09 |
Megaf |
Folks, I'm looking at the code trying to find an existing way to implement control via arrow keys instead of mouse, but I can't find anything very clear, can anyone help? |
| 16:09 |
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| 17:11 |
CiaranG |
Megaf: Try this: https://github.com/CiaranG/minetest/commit/dbb97e12a9a6b92bccdb661cdab772868d01af7c |
| 17:13 |
CiaranG |
(in other words, there is no existing way, but if you build with that it will do it) |
| 17:13 |
Megaf |
CiaranG: That's really cool |
| 17:13 |
Megaf |
So, that's is not part of minetest yet |
| 17:13 |
CiaranG |
No |
| 17:14 |
Megaf |
CiaranG: did you request a pull? |
| 17:14 |
CiaranG |
No. There is a problem that I would want to resolve before I thought about that. |
| 17:15 |
CiaranG |
If you map the left/right mouse click to something else (i.e. a key) you can't then map it back to the mouse button (because the gui captures the mouse clicks) |
| 17:15 |
CiaranG |
(of course, you could just change the config file to map it back) |
| 17:15 |
CiaranG |
But it's good enough for what I needed it for, so I haven't tried to fix that yet. It's probably very easy. |
| 17:16 |
Megaf |
CiaranG: did you see my topic? |
| 17:16 |
CiaranG |
No? |
| 17:16 |
Megaf |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=8552 |
| 17:17 |
CiaranG |
Ha |
| 17:17 |
Megaf |
so, it would be great if you help us |
| 17:18 |
CiaranG |
Well, I already did, see above ;) |
| 17:20 |
CiaranG |
All you have to do is convince someone to merge it I guess |
| 17:22 |
CiaranG |
Or testing it would help, if you're able to build? |
| 17:30 |
Megaf |
I am, I have a fork too |
| 17:30 |
Megaf |
Im going to used that on my fork and see how it works |
| 17:53 |
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| 17:58 |
Megaf |
Ok, thank you CiaranG |
| 17:59 |
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| 19:05 |
sapier |
MichaelRpdx: are you there? |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:16 |
celeron55_ |
CiaranG!? |
| 19:16 |
celeron55_ |
the first freaking contributor to the project of all time is here |
| 19:17 |
sapier |
yes he's already here for some time ;-) |
| 19:18 |
sapier |
celeron55 do you have a opinion to making player client version available through modapi? |
| 19:18 |
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| 19:19 |
celeron55_ |
sapier: for what purpose? |
| 19:21 |
sapier |
well it's primary for debugging purposes but could be usefull for statistics and player information about best version to use with a server too. Right now it's disabled for non debug builds in my pull request |
| 19:22 |
sapier |
I use this feature to create a benchmarking mod for various network protocols. Of course that's nothing to be used on a real server |
| 19:24 |
sapier |
as ShadowNinja already intended to abuse it for player blocking I have mixed feelings about making it generaly availabe |
| 19:27 |
celeron55_ |
player blocking? |
| 19:27 |
celeron55_ |
what for? the engine already does that and it's its responsibility anyway |
| 19:28 |
sapier |
well I understood something like block clients beeing not official minetest client ... I don't like ideas like that |
| 19:28 |
celeron55_ |
what |
| 19:28 |
celeron55_ |
that's ridiculous |
| 19:28 |
sapier |
true that's why I already limited it to debug version only |
| 19:30 |
celeron55_ |
anyway i don't like that separated major/minor/whatever thing; and also it should contain the name of the client |
| 19:31 |
sapier |
you have a mixed mode version in version string |
| 19:31 |
celeron55_ |
for statistics purposes a string like "Minetest 0.4.9-git" would be completely fine and probably preferred |
| 19:31 |
sapier |
I need the version numbers in core |
| 19:32 |
celeron55_ |
what do you do with them? |
| 19:32 |
sapier |
right now we have no way to workaround the different client behaviour because of someone didn't realize he changed behaviour in a way that'd have required bumping protocol version |
| 19:32 |
sapier |
basicaly any client as of 0.4.7 does behave slightly different |
| 19:33 |
sapier |
I can't proove it but I have reason to believe some tablet clients behave different too |
| 19:33 |
celeron55_ |
clients having subtle changes without version changes has always been the case |
| 19:33 |
celeron55_ |
why is it a problem now? |
| 19:34 |
celeron55_ |
do you realize you break all what was beautiful about minetest versioning with that thing |
| 19:35 |
sapier |
I do see the risk but on the other hand those changes we didn't realize by time to bump protocol version stop us from beeing compatible |
| 19:35 |
celeron55_ |
break compatibility then |
| 19:36 |
celeron55_ |
and change things so that both of these apply: 1) we don't need to expose client version for any functional purpose, 2) such breakage is 100 times less likely to occur in the future |
| 19:36 |
sapier |
that's easy to say but usually results in "you can't change that thing because of noone can connect after it" ... for things you have to break to fix even worse things ... resulting in blocking dev |
| 19:37 |
celeron55_ |
by making that change you just make everything super obscure and nobody can anymore know what works and what doesn't, and also you effectively lock out non-minetest clients due to arbitrary version checks |
| 19:38 |
celeron55_ |
i don't approve any of this |
| 19:38 |
sapier |
well it's already very obscure |
| 19:38 |
celeron55_ |
yeah, so let's make it more obscure |
| 19:38 |
celeron55_ |
great idea |
| 19:39 |
sapier |
I don't think it's more obsucre to know what's gonna happen, right now it may or may not work and you neigter can predict nor workaround minor issues |
| 19:39 |
celeron55_ |
i'll say you are only allowed to add as many lines as you remove for this |
| 19:40 |
sapier |
? |
| 19:40 |
sapier |
what do you mean? |
| 19:41 |
celeron55_ |
i mean i don't like making it more compicated |
| 19:41 |
celeron55_ |
+l |
| 19:43 |
sapier |
well if you don't want the version number I'm not gonna add it but I recommend bumping min protocol version to 23 too as old clients are incompatible and there's no way to fix the basic issues without breaking compatibility |
| 19:43 |
MichaelRpdx |
sapier here now |
| 19:45 |
sapier |
working around issues by protocol version which might have been changed on breaking behaviour or not is at best a ugly hack not a solution |
| 19:45 |
celeron55_ |
i think it is a right time for breaking compatibility and making a clean solution for the current time and the future |
| 19:46 |
sapier |
actully I thought we wanted to do this in final decision about network protocol |
| 19:46 |
celeron55_ |
what's the news on that then? |
| 19:47 |
sapier |
right now we >can< handle old clients in almost 99% of cases by abusing protocol version to do compatibility ... but that's as ugly as using client version |
| 19:48 |
sapier |
nothing new because everyone lost interest and I'm still tracking down some strange bugs ... some jthread relate some in there forever |
| 19:49 |
celeron55_ |
i think this is going to a really bad direction |
| 19:49 |
celeron55_ |
we should be making things more simple and robust, not more complicated and unstable |
| 19:49 |
Megaf |
indeed |
| 19:49 |
sapier |
well removing the big logs is prone to make it unstable but it's necessary |
| 19:49 |
sapier |
locks |
| 19:50 |
sapier |
and right now I'm the only one really looking for those issues ... most of people do android development only |
| 19:52 |
sapier |
ok just to make sure, is it commonly accepted to bump min protocol version? |
| 19:55 |
sapier |
guys I can't do this without clear position of at least some core devs |
| 19:56 |
Megaf |
sapier: Can't you create o poll or something like it? |
| 19:56 |
celeron55_ |
no it isn't accepted, without being sure that the chance is then taken to improve everything made possible by it |
| 19:56 |
celeron55_ |
but if that is done, then it is absolutely accepted |
| 19:57 |
sapier |
"improve everything made possible" ... it'd be more easy to rewrite it in total then to guarantee this "I want everything and now" demand |
| 19:57 |
celeron55_ |
(and if it isn't, then that's just because of ignorance) |
| 19:58 |
sapier |
especally as there's noone to review any changes |
| 19:58 |
celeron55_ |
well i think everyone can agree that we don't have the resources to maintain complicated things or to cause any more complication to anything, and neither do we have resources for breaking compatibility and improving everything |
| 19:59 |
celeron55_ |
so maybe the only real alternative then is to break compatibility and hope that it frees developer time for productive things |
| 19:59 |
celeron55_ |
in the long run |
| 19:59 |
sapier |
ok so why didn't you stop adding a insane complicated thing like texture downloading and https? |
| 19:59 |
sapier |
-s |
| 19:59 |
sapier |
both requires client/server handshake as server needs to know about client beeing ready to receive further information |
| 19:59 |
celeron55_ |
me? i've done and looked at absolutely nothing in the past month |
| 20:00 |
celeron55_ |
(on the other hand, i've made great progress in an another project of mine) |
| 20:00 |
sapier |
exactly but now as I try to fix the issues added in this time you seem to expect me to fix everything bad at once ... at least that's what I understand |
| 20:01 |
sapier |
everytime I fix a issue I stumble into another one beeing in there for quite some time but beeing hidden of another one |
| 20:02 |
CiaranG |
celeron55_: yes, me. hey :) |
| 20:02 |
sapier |
but that's something different. what I'm interested atm is shall I remove compatibility handling or not |
| 20:03 |
sapier |
it uses protocol version same way it'd use a version number so it's basicaly no difference |
| 20:03 |
celeron55_ |
whatever answer i give, it's a bad answer |
| 20:03 |
celeron55_ |
maybe everything is going to end horribly and we should stop before it's too late |
| 20:03 |
celeron55_ |
it's done now |
| 20:04 |
sapier |
well none is as bad as not deciding at all that's just "I don't wanna decide because of I want to be able to blame you for it later" |
| 20:04 |
celeron55_ |
if the compatibility is removed, then we blame the ones that made compatibility too hard, right? 8) |
| 20:05 |
celeron55_ |
(which is me) |
| 20:05 |
sapier |
actually the last months I have the feeling I'm made reponsible for everything beeing wrong in mt ;-P |
| 20:07 |
sapier |
I'm gonna open up a poll in forum ... I hope core devs will respond |
| 20:07 |
celeron55_ |
at least you expose every possible problem with whatever you do and then ice it up with a big chunk of complicated code that mostly makes it worse |
| 20:07 |
celeron55_ |
or at least that's how it looks like |
| 20:08 |
sapier |
well adding client/server init handling can't be done with no code ... there was none before |
| 20:08 |
sapier |
ok it was there by using a bunch of bool variables to form "some sort of client state" |
| 20:08 |
celeron55_ |
wasn't the previous "no code" proof that it can? 8) |
| 20:09 |
sapier |
well that's why it didn't work e.g. uninitialized players in world, lost player models on player object sent prior model transmission, chat messages not sent to those who should receive it |
| 20:09 |
sapier |
basicaly it's been your idea to fix the player standing in world |
| 20:14 |
celeron55_ |
should we start a 0.5.0 branch that aims for more stability and simplicity with no compatibility, and kind of opportunistically imporve things on it until there doesn't seem to be more to do (which is when it's released) |
| 20:14 |
celeron55_ |
and give that enough time |
| 20:14 |
sapier |
well I don't believe that's gonna happen anytime soon there's way to much to do |
| 20:14 |
sapier |
e.g. splitting env lock |
| 20:15 |
celeron55_ |
what's not going to happen? |
| 20:15 |
sapier |
and community is already split I don't believe splitting it even more will improve situation |
| 20:15 |
sapier |
"nutil there doesn't seem to be more" |
| 20:15 |
celeron55_ |
that's not a split; it's a way larger changes are usually developedd |
| 20:15 |
celeron55_ |
-d |
| 20:16 |
celeron55_ |
well ffs i can decide when it's done if that's the problem |
| 20:16 |
celeron55_ |
seems like the smallest of problems |
| 20:20 |
celeron55_ |
would *you* be fine with that branch? |
| 20:20 |
celeron55_ |
(there's nobody else here anyway) |
| 20:20 |
sapier |
well I don't know what to do there |
| 20:20 |
sapier |
https://forum.minetest.net/edit.php?id=129782 |
| 20:21 |
* VanessaE |
peeks in |
| 20:21 |
sapier |
imho this feels like a second freeminder branch ... I did compare it to current master yesterday ... it's argonizing how much we have differed, both have fixes in there the other one doesn't have (not counting controversial things) |
| 20:22 |
VanessaE |
sapier: missing player models and/or player nametags |
| 20:24 |
VanessaE |
if it was up to me, and I was the one making this decision, I would side with c55 here - start a new branch, break compatibility, but rewrite the entire network protocol from scratch if that's what it takes to "get it right", make that the official code when the time is right. |
| 20:26 |
sapier |
if I'd believe it was only about network protocol I'd do it but there'll be package format, threading data format ... all of those issues which regularly pop up |
| 20:26 |
sapier |
And I can't do all of them on my own |
| 20:31 |
sapier |
well right now we have a draw in that poll ... but doesn't seem to draw a lot of interest from core devs |
| 20:35 |
sapier |
sometimes I understand why proller and xyz have left |
| 20:47 |
celeron55_ |
sapier: you linked to the edit page of your post; this is the actual post: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=8571 |
| 20:48 |
sapier |
thanks, fixed it in #minetest forgot to fix it here ... sorry |
| 20:48 |
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| 20:50 |
VanessaE |
sapier: regarding your current branch, where do we stand? is that going to be pushed upstream then? |
| 20:50 |
VanessaE |
(the one I've had under test) |
| 20:50 |
sapier |
no not without a decision |
| 20:50 |
VanessaE |
ok |
| 20:51 |
VanessaE |
do you have that link handy to that compatibility table you had worked out? |
| 20:53 |
sapier |
https://gist.github.com/sapier/8907170 |
| 20:58 |
EvergreenTree |
Idea that I'm willing to do: Give the furnace fire an animated texture? |
| 20:58 |
EvergreenTree |
instead of that static flame image |
| 20:59 |
EvergreenTree |
Anyone think it should be done? |
| 20:59 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/VanessaE/animated_furnace' |
| 20:59 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/VanessaE/animated_furnace |
| 21:00 |
VanessaE |
Dan already did it (that's just my copy if it) |
| 21:01 |
EvergreenTree |
ah |
| 21:01 |
EvergreenTree |
Well, I can integrate and merge it then. |
| 21:02 |
VanessaE |
but that's a minetest_game issue, not a core issue like what sapier and c55 are talking about |
| 21:04 |
EvergreenTree |
Well, sorry if I'm breaking the discussion |
| 21:05 |
VanessaE |
noit's okay |
| 21:05 |
VanessaE |
it's a good idea |
| 21:06 |
sapier |
discussion fell a sleep some minutes ago so don't bother EvergreenTree |
| 21:06 |
VanessaE |
textures and code in that mod are suitable for minetest_game, so go for it :) |
| 21:06 |
VanessaE |
s/don't bother/don't worry about it/ |
| 21:06 |
EvergreenTree |
Okay |
| 21:06 |
EvergreenTree |
Thanks |
| 21:07 |
EvergreenTree |
I might make my own texture for it |
| 21:08 |
VanessaE |
ok |
| 21:09 |
EvergreenTree |
I'm guessing he used the default animated fire texture for it |
| 21:14 |
VanessaE |
I'm not sure how he made that texture actuall |
| 21:14 |
VanessaE |
+t |
| 21:14 |
VanessaE |
-t+y |
| 21:26 |
sapier |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1142 this one seems to get more and more important, MichaelRpdx's problem seems to be a luajit issue too ... this time it's not in mainmenu but in generic server startup |
| 21:35 |
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| 21:40 |
sapier |
well if noone complains I'm gonna push 1142 in about an hour |
| 21:54 |
VanessaE |
sapier: it seems that "out with the old, in with the new" is the general consensus on your poll so far. |
| 22:02 |
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| 22:11 |
VanessaE |
bbl |
| 22:25 |
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| 22:30 |
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| 22:31 |
sapier |
ok pushing #1142 now |
| 23:03 |
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