| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:18 |
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| 08:30 |
kahrl |
so I deleted my minetest.conf, made a new world, made myself a bucket, grabbed some water from the ocean, dropped it on top of a mountain |
| 08:30 |
kahrl |
neither does it flow nor does the hole in the ocean get filled |
| 08:30 |
kahrl |
this really needs to be fixed before 0.4.8, any progress on that? |
| 08:31 |
kahrl |
(I'll mark #950 as milestone since it's essentially the same) |
| 08:36 |
kahrl |
there needs to be a decision whether #882 or #911 or a compromise or something else will be merged |
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| 09:43 |
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| 11:07 |
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| 12:13 |
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| 12:21 |
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| 12:26 |
PilzAdam |
kahrl, I guess increasing liquid_loop_max to 10000 again should work |
| 12:28 |
proller |
or https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/895 |
| 12:30 |
PilzAdam |
this seems to increase the speed of the default liquids |
| 12:32 |
proller |
only if queue big |
| 12:33 |
proller |
but now liquds have no constant speed |
| 12:33 |
proller |
bigger queue -> slower |
| 12:34 |
PilzAdam |
you increase liquid_update, that makes the liquids faster when the queue is not full |
| 12:38 |
proller |
no, because decreased liquid_loop_max = 500 |
| 12:41 |
VanessaE |
the problem with high values of _max is risk of huge server lags |
| 12:41 |
VanessaE |
there's basically no protection against excessive CPU usage in the water flowing code - or there wasn't at the time the default value was reduced. |
| 12:46 |
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| 14:09 |
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| 14:20 |
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| 14:21 |
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| 14:54 |
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| 14:55 |
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| 15:00 |
celeron55 |
to sapier and whoever: minetest is supposed to be buildable by these: GCC of debian stable, latest clang, VC2010 and latest binary distribution of mingw |
| 15:01 |
celeron55 |
this has been the case forever; it probably should be written down so that nobody has to ask it anymore |
| 15:03 |
celeron55 |
(vc2010 will be dropped in favor of vc2012 some day; i have no idea when) |
| 15:04 |
celeron55 |
(more like "some year") |
| 15:09 |
BlockMen |
i hope not to soon because i have full version of 2010^^ |
| 15:18 |
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| 15:23 |
BlockMen |
celeron55, have you any comments on #928? |
| 15:32 |
BlockMen |
or kahrl, or thexyz? |
| 16:22 |
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| 16:25 |
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| 17:06 |
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| 17:08 |
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| 17:17 |
celeron55 |
there's some random guy asking by email basically about becoming a sponsor and getting some features in exchange; features which seem to roughly be about getting a largeish survival server instance with proper mobs running |
| 17:17 |
celeron55 |
no details other than that really |
| 17:21 |
celeron55 |
probably not worth the hassle as usual, but if someone has something to say or ask or wants this contact for some other minetest-related purpose, just tell |
| 17:23 |
sapier |
sounds interesting ... but "proper mobs" is a little bit unclear |
| 17:27 |
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| 17:28 |
NakedFury |
proper mobs. way to be unclear |
| 17:29 |
celeron55 |
well that was really only my interpretation |
| 17:29 |
celeron55 |
here's the email content: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=vhV7H7hC |
| 17:30 |
sapier |
hmm "rough compatibility with minecraft" I guess there will be some ppl that don't like that direction ;-) |
| 17:31 |
sapier |
using the simplest possible interpretation "same mobs as in minecraft" this wouldn't be that difficult to be done ... but ai will still be limited by cpu performance |
| 17:31 |
celeron55 |
whatever that means, there's no reason it would go in upstream minetest_game or whatever; it seems to me mostly like a request for customization or such |
| 17:32 |
celeron55 |
as in "i'd like to run a server and i have some money or whatever but don't care to develop content myself" |
| 17:32 |
sapier |
I'd assume same yes |
| 17:33 |
proller |
all mobs logic must run in fast c++ core |
| 17:34 |
sapier |
proller how may ai did you do recently? |
| 17:34 |
celeron55 |
(in any case, i'm fine with throwing these kinds of customization things to any interested individuals that i deem trustworthy) |
| 17:35 |
proller |
sapier, ~0 |
| 17:35 |
sapier |
it's not the logics but environment operations that require cpu power |
| 17:35 |
sapier |
did you try mobf with delayed spawning enabled? almost no delay left |
| 17:35 |
celeron55 |
(who can then discuss about engine development on behalf of the "guy who can pay for work") |
| 17:36 |
proller |
but mobs now totally stupid |
| 17:36 |
sapier |
everyone says mobs are stupid but once I ask why they are stupid noone answers |
| 17:37 |
sapier |
proller could you give an example? I'd gladly fix it in next version ... but I can't fix things I don't know about |
| 17:38 |
sapier |
and yes simple mobs are stupid they're designed to be stupid in order to avoid cpu usage |
| 17:41 |
BlockMen |
intelligent mobs would be to hard for players :P |
| 17:42 |
sapier |
that's one point and if their iq rises above 100 we'd reach singularity thus rendering mankind useless |
| 17:42 |
sapier |
;-P |
| 17:43 |
Sokomine |
i'd really love to see mobf beeing used on servers - at least the friendly mobs |
| 17:43 |
sapier |
no without joking are there any examples what behaviour is "stupid" |
| 17:44 |
Sokomine |
hm :) i'd say "see a player - attack" is stupid. "see a player - RUN!" would be intelligent in most cases :) |
| 17:44 |
sapier |
vombies once was able to kill player ... ppl didn't like that either ;-P |
| 17:45 |
Sokomine |
perhaps those players who want mobs to fight against ought to tell what they want |
| 17:46 |
Sokomine |
for me, having animals as decoration in the landscape and on farms is most important. younger players may get more excited about beeing able to kill something |
| 17:48 |
sapier |
still I'd like to get an answer "WHY MOBS ARE STUPID" to me it seems like mob bashing atm as noone ever answers that question |
| 17:49 |
BlockMen |
stupid as "not knowing any behavior of the enemy, no plan of attack" |
| 17:50 |
BlockMen |
"no change in behavior if hit by player" and so on |
| 17:50 |
sapier |
ok so you're talking about fighting behaviour |
| 17:51 |
sapier |
thanks that's a point to start at ... by now I did focus primary on movement if we got to the point where movement isn't main point of annoyance I gladly improve fighting capabilities |
| 17:52 |
BlockMen |
hmm...the way of moving itself is ok IMO, but the "random walking around" could be called stupid ;) |
| 17:53 |
BlockMen |
but i have to say that i have not played much with mobs...so i may be wrong |
| 17:56 |
sapier |
it's random so it should be stupid ;-) |
| 17:56 |
sapier |
they just avoid to drop or run to areas where they shouldn't be e.g. sheep in desert |
| 17:57 |
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| 17:58 |
BlockMen |
sheep should seek for "default:grass" (1-5), move to it and remove that node |
| 17:59 |
BlockMen |
and that wouldnt be thaaat cpu intensive |
| 18:00 |
sapier |
they do in current dev version |
| 18:02 |
* BlockMen |
didnt know |
| 18:02 |
BlockMen |
nice |
| 18:16 |
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| 18:18 |
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| 18:18 |
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| 18:19 |
sapier |
thexyz I may have a solution for your localization issue |
| 18:21 |
thexyz |
what's it? |
| 18:21 |
sapier |
different gettext versions (re)evaluating environment in different orders |
| 18:29 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:30 |
sapier |
wow those microsoft guys are really really strange yesterday vs2012 run fine on my win7 64 bit starting it now I get told it's known to be incompatible and can't be run ... the only thing that might have changed are automatic os updates |
| 18:30 |
sapier |
I didn't even reboot :-) |
| 18:33 |
BlockMen |
"sapier: I didn't even reboot :-)", its windows. you should do that ;) |
| 18:33 |
sapier |
trying atm let's see if it's gonna work after that again |
| 18:36 |
celeron55 |
inb4 it breaks more |
| 18:37 |
sapier |
no windows still is convinced that microsoft visual studio express 2012 is incompatible to my win7 64 bit from today ... but not the one from yesterday |
| 18:38 |
sapier |
ok they released a hofix for it ... so that damn os is yelling to microsoft what applications are started each time you start it |
| 18:39 |
sapier |
ok maybe not each time ... but at least once |
| 18:43 |
proller |
sapier, mobs must be intelligent as you (if you playing inside mob) |
| 18:43 |
sapier |
that ain't possible in general ;-) |
| 18:43 |
proller |
birds must fly fast (as birds) |
| 18:44 |
sapier |
they do there's just a little problem once a bird flys fast it's gonna leave active area quite soon |
| 18:44 |
proller |
various mobs must have various behavior (neutral, angry, ....) |
| 18:44 |
sapier |
they already have |
| 18:44 |
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| 18:44 |
proller |
birds can fly by circles |
| 18:45 |
proller |
with low hp mobs must run away |
| 18:45 |
sapier |
why? |
| 18:45 |
sapier |
did you ever hear of dodo's running away on mauritius? |
| 18:46 |
proller |
maybe not all |
| 18:46 |
proller |
and not always |
| 18:47 |
sapier |
as of last version mobf has factions support |
| 18:47 |
sapier |
including reputation mechanism |
| 18:48 |
proller |
ok. |
| 18:49 |
sapier |
used correct this will result in neutral angry behaviour |
| 18:49 |
proller |
and need more biome-specific mobs, for snow and maybe lava |
| 18:50 |
sapier |
true but a lot of work without ppl helping e.g. by testing |
| 18:50 |
celeron55 |
birds don't generally fly most of the time; they just sit in tree and then sprint to an another tree and then sit there |
| 18:50 |
celeron55 |
+a |
| 18:51 |
sapier |
that's why mobf has only gulls those sit on ground (mobf ones don't) and fly long times |
| 18:51 |
proller |
or sit | walk on ground and fly if you near |
| 18:52 |
sapier |
good idea ... I think that'll be done for mobf 2.4 ... requires a little bit more work |
| 18:59 |
Sokomine |
the gulls sailing in the sky are just fine. mobf does well there. no need for faster birds |
| 19:01 |
Sokomine |
it just gets problematic when they sail 10 cm above ground at low velocity. as long as they're high enough it's fine |
| 19:02 |
sapier |
Yes I know ... actually there are mechanisms to avoid this ... obviously this doesn't work everytime ... especialy if server/client get out of sync |
| 19:03 |
Sokomine |
*nod* but in general those gulls are a very nice view |
| 19:03 |
Sokomine |
hm. that "cyan wool" problem needs to be solved i'm afraid |
| 19:03 |
sapier |
cyan wool problem? |
| 19:04 |
Sokomine |
newer clients support more than 4k diffrent nodes. in order to do that, one node got a special one. unfortionately, on older worlds, this number is already occupied by a node. in case of redcrabs server, that's cyan wool |
| 19:04 |
Sokomine |
it's not just an unkown block. it's impossible to dig with a new client |
| 19:05 |
Sokomine |
the map needs to be rewritten once |
| 19:05 |
Sokomine |
players switching to 0.4.8 will eventually have that problem as well... |
| 19:05 |
sapier |
can't this be done on the fly once a map is opened? |
| 19:06 |
Sokomine |
i don't know |
| 19:07 |
Sokomine |
we also have that flowing liquid problem with old world vs new client. but that gets solved automaticly once the server runs a newer version. the "cyan wool" problem can't be solved that way. for servers, rewriting the map once might be the solution |
| 19:08 |
proller |
liquid fixed in 882 |
| 19:08 |
PilzAdam |
Sokomine, I already told you that the content IDs in that are used at runtime have nothing todo with the content IDs that are used in the database |
| 19:09 |
PilzAdam |
I dont remember any changes in this direction, so it might just be database corrpution |
| 19:14 |
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| 19:17 |
sapier |
thxyz ... grrrr same thing working on mingw doesn't work for msvc |
| 19:17 |
thexyz |
what thing? |
| 19:18 |
Sokomine |
no, it's not database corruption. someone (hmmm?) explained to me that it was due to allowing 4k nodes |
| 19:18 |
sapier |
refreshing locale using current gettext does work ... using latest supported gettext version for vs doesn't seem to work |
| 19:18 |
Sokomine |
just connect to redcrab.suret.net 30401 and try to interact with some cyan wool |
| 19:19 |
Sokomine |
or linuxgaming.us with the asphalt with middle line |
| 19:19 |
PilzAdam |
server client incompatibility is a different thing |
| 19:20 |
Sokomine |
hm. so it might be due to the download+save variant? and will be sorted out once a new server is run? ok, in that case it won't be a problem |
| 19:20 |
BlockMen |
devs, what about #928? any chance to get it into 0.4.8? |
| 19:24 |
RealBadAngel |
squash it first |
| 19:24 |
RealBadAngel |
and i think it could be merged |
| 19:26 |
PilzAdam |
has someone tested it yet? |
| 19:27 |
BlockMen |
RealBadAngel, sure, will do |
| 19:27 |
celeron55 |
where are screenshots showing what it can do? |
| 19:28 |
BlockMen |
PilzAdam, http://pastebin.com/5LwX8hhH have fun ;) |
| 19:28 |
BlockMen |
celeron55, posted 1 or 2 months ago already |
| 19:28 |
PilzAdam |
I like the "255,138,138,138;255,192,192,192;50,0,0,0;255,255,255,255;255,0,0,0" part |
| 19:29 |
celeron55 |
uhm |
| 19:29 |
celeron55 |
how did the discussion about this color stuff end previously? |
| 19:29 |
BlockMen |
it ended that argb is ok (AFAIK) |
| 19:30 |
BlockMen |
and here the old screenshot http://i.imgur.com/UnrmevT.png |
| 19:30 |
sapier |
ok localization with latest official win32 gettext version and visual studio2012 doesn't seem to work at all |
| 19:30 |
RealBadAngel |
argb or rgba are both fine |
| 19:32 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: the questions is about whether to use #hhhhhh or comma-separated integers |
| 19:32 |
celeron55 |
-s |
| 19:32 |
celeron55 |
or was |
| 19:33 |
BlockMen |
http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-08-04#i_3237919 |
| 19:33 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, it doesnt really matters what format we choose |
| 19:34 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: wat |
| 19:34 |
celeron55 |
it matters by a ton |
| 19:35 |
RealBadAngel |
why? |
| 19:35 |
sapier |
readability |
| 19:35 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: what if it turns out to be a bad decision later and needs to be changed? |
| 19:35 |
celeron55 |
then minetest needs to still support the bad decision too |
| 19:35 |
VanessaE |
(I lean toward #hhhhhh, fwiw) |
| 19:35 |
RealBadAngel |
for me hex is more readable, but that is not for most folks out there |
| 19:36 |
kaeza |
#rrggbb looks more clean |
| 19:36 |
celeron55 |
but anyway, it looks like for some reason i decided previously that integers are good so i'm trusting myself on that |
| 19:36 |
VanessaE |
hex is what's used on most systems where an RGB triplet is needed, I think |
| 19:36 |
celeron55 |
the issue is/was that #rrggbbaa is very non-standard and it's unreadable too with four octets |
| 19:37 |
VanessaE |
how about #rrbbgg,aa then? |
| 19:37 |
VanessaE |
er rgb* |
| 19:37 |
RealBadAngel |
shaders already are using vec4 |
| 19:37 |
VanessaE |
(you know what I meant) |
| 19:37 |
RealBadAngel |
in format rgba |
| 19:37 |
BlockMen |
not that much IMO |
| 19:37 |
BlockMen |
*better |
| 19:38 |
RealBadAngel |
4 components vector of floats |
| 19:38 |
sapier |
supporting both isn't an option is it? |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
sapier: it's always the worst option possible; anyway if i can, i'm locking this now to the previously made decision if at all possible |
| 19:40 |
celeron55 |
(it's a waste of time to go over the same things again as nobody has learned anything new in this time anyway) |
| 19:40 |
celeron55 |
BlockMen: change "inv" in your documentation to the full word "inventory" |
| 19:41 |
celeron55 |
or alternatively remove the word |
| 19:41 |
sapier |
it's just a color format so supporting different formats isn't as bad imho its like using 10=0xA=012=1010b |
| 19:42 |
sapier |
but I'll be fine with any option |
| 19:42 |
BlockMen |
kk |
| 19:42 |
celeron55 |
so who has tested #928? |
| 19:44 |
kahrl |
I'll have to think about formspec_table then |
| 19:44 |
kahrl |
currently it uses #rrggbb colors with commas separating options |
| 19:46 |
celeron55 |
that gives us a solid-ish reason to go for #rrggbb[aa] instead, in which missing aa is read as ff |
| 19:47 |
VanessaE |
sounds good to me. |
| 19:50 |
celeron55 |
listcolors[#8a8a8a;c0c0c0;#00000032;#ffffff;#000000] |
| 19:50 |
celeron55 |
this does look a million times more clear |
| 19:50 |
RealBadAngel |
indeed |
| 19:50 |
kahrl |
I'll probably merge those separate "background" and "background_alpha" options in formspec_table |
| 19:50 |
kahrl |
and highlight and highlight_alpha |
| 19:50 |
celeron55 |
+# |
| 19:51 |
celeron55 |
so it looks like BlockMen got a bit more work to do then |
| 19:52 |
* BlockMen |
.. yay |
| 19:52 |
BlockMen |
:P |
| 19:52 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe |
| 19:52 |
RealBadAngel |
not to mention code is shorter |
| 19:53 |
BlockMen |
can someone test it anyway...then i know what else (i might have) to change |
| 19:53 |
celeron55 |
remember to require the use of #; that way different formats can be differentiated if needed in the future |
| 19:53 |
kahrl |
fwiw, here is my hex color parsing code: https://github.com/kahrl/minetest/commit/9f3a19468293e015786c3342c170d2076419f435#diff-cba62fd9bbe7903df6e74be690f396fbR1131 |
| 19:54 |
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| 19:54 |
kahrl |
not terribly great code but it works (doesn't do #RGBA yet, though) |
| 19:54 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, im finishing my work on shaders, last thing i need are refraction and reflection rendering to texture |
| 19:55 |
RealBadAngel |
the question is, where to use them |
| 19:55 |
BlockMen |
hmm...then a new function that tables use too? |
| 19:55 |
BlockMen |
i mean not new, extended yours |
| 19:55 |
RealBadAngel |
its impossible to get correct reflections on every height |
| 19:55 |
kahrl |
BlockMen: yeah, would be best... I wonder where to put it |
| 19:56 |
BlockMen |
guiFormspec? |
| 19:56 |
RealBadAngel |
limit those effects to water level? |
| 19:56 |
kahrl |
sounds fine |
| 19:56 |
BlockMen |
since it is for formspecs |
| 19:57 |
BlockMen |
ok, i dont have much time atm. it might not be finished until next weekend |
| 20:09 |
BlockMen |
actually i just need change this function -> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/guiFormSpecMenu.cpp#L2636 |
| 20:17 |
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| 20:24 |
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Jordach joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:27 |
sapier |
thexyz could you try this version https://filetea.me/t1sw00pwZFISuqxQaYiKrjb4w |
| 20:36 |
kahrl |
BlockMen: this should work: http://paste.dy.fi/3tW |
| 20:36 |
kahrl |
(self contained program with test cases) |
| 20:44 |
BlockMen |
kahrl, looks good. will test it asap |
| 20:50 |
thexyz |
sapier: try what? |
| 20:50 |
|
BlockMen left #minetest-dev |
| 20:51 |
thexyz |
and please next time upload it to some sane place |
| 20:51 |
thexyz |
I don't think it's that hard |
| 20:53 |
thexyz |
alright |
| 20:53 |
thexyz |
this time you didn't include libstdc++-6.dll because, dunno, you hate us or something |
| 20:53 |
sapier |
it is as all sane places tend to go away very soon |
| 20:53 |
sapier |
pomf.se is already offline again |
| 20:53 |
sapier |
sfan doesn't support files > 5mb ... |
| 20:54 |
thexyz |
pomf works for me right now |
| 20:54 |
thexyz |
dunno what you're talking about |
| 20:54 |
sapier |
great it didn't work 10 min ago |
| 20:54 |
thexyz |
great indeed |
| 20:56 |
sapier |
I wonder if there's a tool that automaticaly copys dlls |
| 20:58 |
sapier |
did you manage to get gettext working with vs at all? I failed by now |
| 20:58 |
sapier |
no matter what I do non ascii chars aren't displayed |
| 20:59 |
sapier |
http://a.pomf.se/J6r0F9.7z hope i didn't miss another dll |
| 21:04 |
thexyz |
what do you mean to "get gettext working with vs"? I didn't compile it from source; otherwise it works just fine |
| 21:04 |
sapier |
it works as long as it doesn't require to use a different charset as system default |
| 21:05 |
sapier |
once I set language to non ascii charset variant I get totaly messed up gui |
| 21:09 |
thexyz |
check the current official build, it seems to work fine |
| 21:09 |
sapier |
which is vs2010 is it? |
| 21:10 |
sapier |
did I forget other dlls? |
| 21:11 |
thexyz |
no, it launches now |
| 21:11 |
thexyz |
hm.. this is odd |
| 21:11 |
sapier |
what exactly is odd? |
| 21:13 |
thexyz |
I can make official 0.4.7 build work with japanese translation on windows with russian locale when I rename "ja" to "ru" in "locale" directory; but if I set LANG from cmd and then launch minetest.exe it just crashes |
| 21:13 |
sapier |
isn't odd I have similar behaviour for various combinations ... those gettext dll/libs aren't a perfect match |
| 21:14 |
sapier |
they never are if you use different compiler versions |
| 21:14 |
sapier |
of course they should be ... but usualle they aren't |
| 21:14 |
thexyz |
so are you willing to provide windows builds from now on? |
| 21:16 |
sapier |
if no one else wants to do this ... no problem still imho we should find a solution for the gettext vs issue ... we can't rely on some old vs version to use a even older gettext variant ;-) |
| 21:16 |
thexyz |
we cannot because ? |
| 21:17 |
sapier |
I had to install a hotfix to vs2012 to get it run again today because microsoft did a automatic update last night ;-) |
| 21:17 |
sapier |
ok not for this exact reason but for that kind of things to happen |
| 21:18 |
sapier |
but I don't have a good idea how to solve that issue ... anyone else? |
| 21:21 |
sapier |
does my mingw build work for you with console set as well as minetest.conf? |
| 21:47 |
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