| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:41 |
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| 05:38 |
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RealBadAngel joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:38 |
RealBadAngel |
hi all |
| 05:38 |
VanessaE |
hey RBA |
| 05:38 |
RealBadAngel |
whats wrong with forums? |
| 05:39 |
VanessaE |
seems okay to me? |
| 05:39 |
RealBadAngel |
my browser says certificates are not valid for the site |
| 05:39 |
RealBadAngel |
and connection is "not trusted" |
| 05:39 |
RealBadAngel |
and i cannot view forums at all |
| 05:39 |
VanessaE |
odd |
| 05:40 |
VanessaE |
maybe you need to validate a new certificate? |
| 05:40 |
RealBadAngel |
forum.minetest.net używa nieprawidłowego certyfikatu bezpieczeństwa. |
| 05:40 |
RealBadAngel |
Ten certyfikat jest prawidłowym certyfikatem tylko dla następujących nazw: |
| 05:40 |
RealBadAngel |
users.minetest.ru , minetest.ru |
| 05:40 |
VanessaE |
thexyz was doing some maintenance earlier |
| 05:40 |
RealBadAngel |
site uses wrong certificate, this certificate is valid only for following names: |
| 05:41 |
RealBadAngel |
this happened yesterday |
| 05:41 |
VanessaE |
odd. |
| 05:41 |
VanessaE |
it's working fine for me now |
| 05:41 |
RealBadAngel |
i just came back from work and its still the same |
| 05:43 |
RealBadAngel |
.ru means that thexyz has something to do with for sure |
| 05:43 |
RealBadAngel |
firefox didnt pulled that out of the hat |
| 06:18 |
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| 08:08 |
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| 08:11 |
nore |
any thought on this? https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/198 |
| 08:14 |
nore |
thexyz, sfan5: anything againt that ^ it is very basic |
| 09:52 |
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| 12:09 |
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| 12:40 |
kahrl |
so I tried the client media fetch code with 2 local apaches and wiresharked it |
| 12:40 |
kahrl |
(the new code in httpfetch, I mean) |
| 12:41 |
kahrl |
turns out it actually uses keepalive pretty well, glad I don't have to add more code to that problem :) |
| 12:43 |
kahrl |
I think it's curl_multi that does that (I only use 8 curl handles but it keeps 10 connections) |
| 12:45 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, the certificate is valid; the problem is in your browser |
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| 15:59 |
Taoki[laptop] |
RealBadAngel: Any news on parallax and color sky fog? |
| 16:00 |
RealBadAngel |
nothing newer than 3 weeks ago |
| 16:00 |
RealBadAngel |
without online documentation i was simply idle |
| 16:00 |
Taoki[laptop] |
ok ;( Hope they will make it |
| 16:01 |
RealBadAngel |
i got it workin but to some degree |
| 16:01 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Why so? Are there things about the parallax code that need documentation to explain? |
| 16:01 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Looked great in the last screenshots to me |
| 16:01 |
RealBadAngel |
irrlicht engine docs |
| 16:02 |
RealBadAngel |
i need a way to pass to each tile (shader instance) calculated tangent vector |
| 16:03 |
Taoki[laptop] |
I see.. |
| 16:03 |
RealBadAngel |
either we move with meshes to built in version that provides tangent and binormal (which means rebuilding of lotsa our code) |
| 16:03 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Might help asking in #irrlicht here or the irrlicht forum on sourceforge IIRC. |
| 16:03 |
Taoki[laptop] |
I don't know what to ask exactly so it wouldn't help for me to post and discuss |
| 16:04 |
RealBadAngel |
or we will find a way to pass vec4 (float) to shader |
| 16:04 |
RealBadAngel |
but not global, an attribute |
| 16:04 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Won't work as an Uniform variable |
| 16:04 |
Taoki[laptop] |
? |
| 16:04 |
RealBadAngel |
wont |
| 16:05 |
Taoki[laptop] |
What about passing each value of the vec4 as a float? |
| 16:05 |
RealBadAngel |
uniform is for each and every instance of a mesh |
| 16:05 |
Taoki[laptop] |
ah |
| 16:05 |
RealBadAngel |
we need such vector for each every different tile |
| 16:05 |
RealBadAngel |
with different coords in the world |
| 16:05 |
Taoki[laptop] |
I think there was an alternative to uniform, but I don't remember well. Some way to pass values to the shader separately |
| 16:06 |
RealBadAngel |
its called attribute |
| 16:06 |
RealBadAngel |
sadly irrlicht doesnt support that |
| 16:06 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Yeah, that |
| 16:06 |
RealBadAngel |
thats why im trying to pass a data texture to shader |
| 16:07 |
RealBadAngel |
that i can easily bound to the instance |
| 16:07 |
Taoki[laptop] |
You posted screenshots that work though. Why doesn't that way work until this can be fixed? |
| 16:08 |
RealBadAngel |
tangent was calculated inside shader |
| 16:08 |
RealBadAngel |
that has two cons |
| 16:08 |
RealBadAngel |
heavily GPU usage |
| 16:08 |
RealBadAngel |
and is glitchy |
| 16:08 |
Taoki[laptop] |
I see |
| 16:08 |
RealBadAngel |
because you cannot calculate tangent properly out of one point |
| 16:08 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Personally I'd vote for putting that upstream till the better way is found, unless it's very very broken. |
| 16:08 |
RealBadAngel |
you need triangle to do so |
| 16:09 |
RealBadAngel |
so at certain angles you can see depth flickering |
| 16:09 |
RealBadAngel |
and its not acceptable |
| 16:10 |
Taoki[laptop] |
RealBadAngel: http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=48992 Might be relevant, not sure if it helps |
| 16:10 |
Taoki[laptop] |
We should ask the Irrlicht people about attributes |
| 16:10 |
RealBadAngel |
ive read it already |
| 16:11 |
RealBadAngel |
its a branch |
| 16:11 |
RealBadAngel |
not official irrlicht |
| 16:11 |
Taoki[laptop] |
ok |
| 16:11 |
RealBadAngel |
we cannot use it at all |
| 16:11 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Hope your latest parallax code is public anyway. I'd like to try it sometime even with the glitching |
| 16:13 |
Taoki[laptop] |
RealBadAngel: Why won't it work with uniform and each instance of a mesh though? Can't that be used to do it per-triangle? |
| 16:13 |
nore |
RealBadAngel, do you know when will that entity duplication bug be fixed? |
| 16:14 |
* Taoki[laptop] |
is sorta starting to wish MineTest could switch to raw OpenGL, seeing how problematic Irrlicht always tends to be |
| 16:18 |
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| 16:18 |
RealBadAngel |
tangent vector is calculated for each surface, tile |
| 16:19 |
RealBadAngel |
its not a global variable |
| 16:21 |
Taoki[laptop] |
RealBadAngel: ok. Anyway, if you still want please look at the colored fog too. IIRC you were pending to look at it before including it |
| 16:22 |
RealBadAngel |
Taoki[laptop], once i solve tangent problem we will be able to get any shaders we want to |
| 16:22 |
RealBadAngel |
including rainbow shadows |
| 16:22 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Fog color isn't a shader, all Minetest code. I prefer it that way also |
| 16:23 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Just saying it's unrelatefd |
| 16:23 |
RealBadAngel |
i have to many things started but not finished, i decided now i wont touch anything till i solve this problem |
| 16:23 |
RealBadAngel |
once and for all |
| 16:23 |
Taoki[laptop] |
RealBadAngel: Must you (as in the MineTest devs) solve the problem, or must Irrlicht do it first? |
| 16:23 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Ok, fair enough |
| 16:24 |
RealBadAngel |
*too |
| 16:25 |
RealBadAngel |
im pretty sure that irrlicht devs should provide attribute usage |
| 16:25 |
Taoki[laptop] |
I shall ask on their forum and IRC about that |
| 16:25 |
RealBadAngel |
but for now im forced to look for another (even hacky) ways to achieve it |
| 16:25 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Least I can help with too |
| 16:25 |
RealBadAngel |
if youre familar with those guys please do so |
| 16:26 |
RealBadAngel |
lack of attribute is pain in the ass |
| 16:26 |
PilzAdam |
Taoki[laptop], if irrlicht fixes it now, then we will probably be able to use it in 5 to 10 years |
| 16:26 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe true |
| 16:26 |
Taoki[laptop] |
PilzAdam: I see what you mean, if you're referring to having to keep compatibility with current Irrlicht versions for that amount |
| 16:27 |
Taoki[laptop] |
ALTHOUGH, we could make features like parallax dependent on Irrlicht version, if they require new fixes there |
| 16:27 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Prolly works with an #ifdef tag |
| 16:37 |
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| 16:39 |
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| 17:22 |
proller |
https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/weather_fog |
| 17:29 |
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| 17:47 |
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| 17:56 |
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| 18:02 |
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| 19:05 |
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| 19:14 |
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| 19:18 |
Taoki[laptop] |
RealBadAngel: Got confirmation that attributes are not supported in Irrlicht 1.7 and 1.8 at all. So you'll likely have to find another way sadly |
| 19:18 |
proller |
ogre or sdl ? ;) |
| 19:18 |
Taoki[laptop] |
yeah, good question at this point :) |
| 19:19 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Kinda upset at OGRE too because their shaders don't seem to work for ATI + Linux |
| 19:19 |
Taoki[laptop] |
But we ATI Linux user are used to getting some discrimination from the software xD |
| 19:20 |
sapier |
guys switching 3d engine is a very very big task it's useless to restart the discussion every 4 weeks without anyone who is willing to spend at least 2-4 weeks full time work |
| 19:21 |
Exio4 |
*at least* |
| 19:21 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Still, I wonder how hard it would be to switch to raw openGL at this point. Probably pretty hard, but stil |
| 19:21 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Ah, that actually answers that lol |
| 19:21 |
Exio4 |
at least you mean for getting a basic minetest that half-works? |
| 19:21 |
sapier |
switching to raw opengl is a half year job |
| 19:21 |
sapier |
full time of course |
| 19:21 |
Taoki[laptop] |
ouch |
| 19:22 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Hmm... I wonder something else however. But I doubt it's stable and possible... |
| 19:22 |
sapier |
about 1-2 months for gui toolkit rewrite and same time for rest of 3d environment (at least) |
| 19:22 |
Exio4 |
c55 said something about "the minetest rewrite" |
| 19:22 |
Exio4 |
if it is ever done, there is something more to it! |
| 19:23 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Would it be possible to compile MineTest with custom Irrlicht patches? For examples, there is a patch that gets Instancing working under Irrlicht. Perhaps Minetest could include it with directives to compile Irrlicht using that code replacement? |
| 19:23 |
sapier |
yes that'd be not much more yes |
| 19:23 |
sapier |
network code scripting api map code (except formspec) could be preserved |
| 19:24 |
sapier |
so just forget about it for now ;-) |
| 19:24 |
Taoki[laptop] |
What about my idea? Can MineTest include Irrlicht patches and compile with those?? |
| 19:24 |
PilzAdam |
why forget it? it would be nice if somone would do it |
| 19:24 |
sapier |
pa i said "for now" |
| 19:25 |
sapier |
if someone is willing to do that of course ;-) |
| 19:25 |
Taoki[laptop] |
PilzAdam: Yeah, but who has the knowledge + time + energy to? |
| 19:25 |
sapier |
I don't see a way to patch irrlicht which is part of users distribution |
| 19:25 |
sapier |
unless we include irrlicht to minetest I don't think we can add own patches |
| 19:25 |
PilzAdam |
Taoki[laptop], I guess none of the core devs |
| 19:26 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Doubtfully, sadlly |
| 19:26 |
sapier |
taoki major problem is time |
| 19:26 |
Taoki[laptop] |
sapier: Some projects choose to come with their own version of a rendering engine, though that's harder to maintain. Grit Engine for instance uses its own version of OGRE |
| 19:27 |
Taoki[laptop] |
sapier: Ironically, I have the time but now the knowledge and energy |
| 19:27 |
sapier |
and it's not a thankfull job at all ... after you switched you'll have to fix incompatibilities ... all that time you hear "but it did work before" ;-) |
| 19:27 |
Exio4 |
i guess more than time the main problem is the pain it is |
| 19:29 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Can't say Irrlicht is all bad, but it occasionally has disappointing limitations you wouldn't expect |
| 19:30 |
sapier |
I'm not sure if we didn't just switch irrlicht limitations against xxx limitations |
| 19:30 |
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| 19:31 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Raw OpenGL prolly wouldn't have any limitations except hardware ones. OGRE would have fewer limitations than Irrlicht I believe, but can't say for sure |
| 19:32 |
sapier |
raw opengl has limitation of missing gui as well as missing support tools ... |
| 19:33 |
sapier |
you can do everything in assembler too still for most things c/c++ (or any other high level language) is better ;-) |
| 19:33 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Yeah, those we'd have to make on our own |
| 19:33 |
Taoki[laptop] |
I wonder if it would ever be a choice to have our own version of Irrlicht? But repasinb it on Irrlicht updates would be hard |
| 19:33 |
Taoki[laptop] |
**rebasing |
| 19:33 |
sapier |
I'm not willing to write a own 3d engine ;-) |
| 19:34 |
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| 19:35 |
Taoki[laptop] |
PilzAdam: What do you think about a MineTest specific version of Irrlicht? Would that be a bad idea, and possible to maintain updated with originall Irrlicht? |
| 19:36 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Such could easily work around the current issues... like difficult-to-achieve dynamic lighting, lack of shader attributes, etc |
| 19:36 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Not sure if there are enough reasons for this yet though |
| 19:37 |
Taoki[laptop] |
It could also include any improvements that original Irrlicht doesn't choose to. That goes back to the VBO code issue |
| 19:38 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Aaaahhh... I just remembered the VBO code isn't in yet >:O Ahem... but yeah |
| 19:38 |
kahrl |
the VBO problem could be fixed in minetest, no need to touch irrlicht (... I think) |
| 19:38 |
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| 19:38 |
Exio4 |
yeah |
| 19:38 |
Exio4 |
there was an idea that hmmmm suggested |
| 19:39 |
Exio4 |
copying the "chunk behavior" of minecraft, that is, load a range of X mapblocks around the player and unload the ones that are far away |
| 19:40 |
sapier |
exio as far as I know it's already done that way |
| 19:41 |
kahrl |
no, the mapblocks that are out of the viewing range are still in memory |
| 19:41 |
kahrl |
including their meshes (which is causing the VBO troubles) |
| 19:41 |
sapier |
when are those unloaded? |
| 19:41 |
Exio4 |
but generating the meshes is slow right now |
| 19:41 |
Exio4 |
sapier: after 10 minutes (default setting) |
| 19:42 |
kahrl |
client_unload_unused_data_timeout |
| 19:42 |
Taoki[laptop] |
Yeah, 10 minutes is too long which is the problem |
| 19:42 |
sapier |
so it's just a big cache ... what about switching from time to memory based exceeding? |
| 19:42 |
kahrl |
but setting the timeout lower causes more network traffic which is undesirable |
| 19:43 |
kahrl |
right now there is some code that relies on the assumption that every loaded mapblock also has a mesh |
| 19:43 |
sapier |
kahrl why not remove time at all and only unload if something new is loaded and some memory limit is exceeded? |
| 19:44 |
kahrl |
guess it could be done that way |
| 19:45 |
sapier |
I don't like timeouts because they tend do be wrong all the time ;-) |
| 19:45 |
kahrl |
you need some way to track the memory used by a mapblock |
| 19:45 |
sapier |
yes do we have a way to do that? |
| 19:45 |
kahrl |
no |
| 19:46 |
sapier |
difficult to add? |
| 19:46 |
kahrl |
which is why when I implemented max_clearobjects_extra_loaded_blocks I defined it as number of blocks and not amount of bytes |
| 19:46 |
kahrl |
not sure how difficult it is |
| 19:46 |
kahrl |
I doubt irrlicht gives you way to get the memory used by a VBO, but it could be estimated |
| 19:47 |
kahrl |
s/you/you a |
| 19:47 |
sapier |
I guess this could fix a lot of issue so it may be worth to investigate that issue |
| 19:51 |
Exio4 |
i guess a mapblock limit (if there is some 'aproximated value') would be better anyway |
| 19:52 |
sapier |
yes mapblock limit is still better then time limit |
| 19:53 |
Exio4 |
memory usage can be guessed but it can't be accurate |
| 19:54 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, I wouldnt mind if you change the heat and humidty used for biome selection |
| 19:54 |
sapier |
if we don't have a exact number I'd prefere the mapblock way |
| 19:54 |
PilzAdam |
I can easily adjust the values used in Pilztest |
| 20:17 |
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