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| 09:49 |
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| 09:50 |
emptty |
Hello there |
| 09:50 |
emptty |
It seems that minetest 4.7 crashes with a floating point exception if the openGL support is not sufficient : http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=720385 |
| 09:51 |
Calinou |
"Severity: important" |
| 09:51 |
emptty |
do you guys know about this issue, or should I report it as a new issue? |
| 09:51 |
Calinou |
it's not like there are too few drivers supporting it... |
| 09:51 |
Calinou |
it wouldn't run anyway... |
| 09:51 |
emptty |
it could be a clean abort() after detecting that openGL is not sufficient, couldn't it? |
| 09:52 |
emptty |
I agree that the severity is a bit overstated, but it's not my fault ;) |
| 09:52 |
Calinou |
then that's a minor bug, and nothing important |
| 09:52 |
Calinou |
and that almost never actually happens, the open source drivers supporting 2.1-3.1 |
| 09:53 |
emptty |
I will downgrade the severity. |
| 09:54 |
emptty |
could you guys add a cleaner exit(1) where it belongs? |
| 10:01 |
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| 10:07 |
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| 10:30 |
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| 10:31 |
BlockMen |
morning, any comments on that? -> https://github.com/BlockMen/minetest/compare/pause_menu |
| 10:41 |
Exio4 |
https://github.com/BlockMen/minetest/compare/pause_menu#L1R1465 |
| 10:42 |
Exio4 |
why do you do that? |
| 10:44 |
BlockMen |
because when the game is paused the cpu usage reduces from ~20% to 5% with that |
| 10:44 |
BlockMen |
and the user wont notice a difference |
| 10:44 |
Exio4 |
the gui is rendered "with the same" delay though |
| 10:45 |
BlockMen |
yes, thats why the delay is 100 and not greater |
| 10:46 |
BlockMen |
upps..200 |
| 10:46 |
BlockMen |
:D |
| 10:46 |
Exio4 |
it is 200.. |
| 10:46 |
Exio4 |
ok |
| 10:46 |
Exio4 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/237 |
| 10:46 |
Exio4 |
calinou's request |
| 10:49 |
BlockMen |
hmm..could be done, but idk if it makes that much sense, because it should be cut at 200 IMO (else you would have these gui lags) |
| 10:50 |
Exio4 |
200ms is 5fps |
| 10:51 |
Exio4 |
the input latency is "up to" 200ms with that delay |
| 10:53 |
Exio4 |
anyway, a coredev should talk |
| 10:54 |
BlockMen |
well, im not fixed on the delay, i just thought it would be nice to have it in |
| 10:54 |
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| 11:02 |
troller |
https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/heat https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/liquid63 |
| 11:03 |
nore |
you should make a bot for that ;) |
| 11:04 |
troller |
8( |
| 11:04 |
troller |
simpler on join script |
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| 15:35 |
proller |
https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/heat https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/liquid63 |
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| 20:09 |
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| 20:25 |
sapier1 |
iqualfragile I've got a problem mobf is too big for mmdb filesize limit ;-) is there a way to specify a external link? |
| 20:26 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, external links are too insecure |
| 20:26 |
sapier1 |
ok then I request a larger file limit ;-) |
| 20:26 |
PilzAdam |
we dont support bloated mods :-p |
| 20:27 |
sapier1 |
I'm going to kick your as sooon ;-P |
| 20:29 |
sapier1 |
why does every tool have it's own markup language ... github mmdb forum |
| 20:31 |
sapier1 |
where to find a doc how "unflavored markdown" works ? |
| 20:37 |
sapier1 |
PA external links can be secured by md5 sums ;-) |
| 20:37 |
sapier1 |
ok sha512 is better |
| 20:38 |
sfan5 |
> secure > md5 |
| 20:45 |
sapier1 |
I guess for files even md5 is safe enough sfan5 ... not for passwords of course |
| 20:46 |
sfan5 |
there are tools available that make it easy to produce an md5 collision for given files |
| 20:47 |
sapier1 |
I guess this will result in huge bloated files ;-) but I already said sha512 would be better ;-) |
| 20:48 |
sapier1 |
but I prefere increase of filesize limit |
| 20:49 |
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| 20:57 |
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| 21:25 |
kahrl |
gentoo checks sha256, sha512, whirlpool and size |
| 21:26 |
sapier1 |
whirlpool? |
| 21:27 |
kahrl |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirlpool_%28cryptography%29 |
| 21:27 |
sapier1 |
wasn't that the one mathematics aren't exactly sure if it's really that safe? |
| 21:27 |
kahrl |
dunno |
| 21:28 |
sapier1 |
something about a mathematic operation used guessed to be very expensive but not prooven ... but I'm not sure if I mix this up with some other algorithm |
| 21:29 |
sapier1 |
but I don't think hash support will be added that soon ;-) unless something else wants to add it |
| 21:29 |
kahrl |
mathematics aren't even sure if P=NP; if P=NP then true one-way functions don't exist afaik |
| 21:31 |
sapier1 |
yes P=NP isn't prooven ... not sure what you mean with one way ... security isn't based uppon one way or not but one way beeing way more expensive than the other one |
| 21:32 |
kahrl |
that's what is meant by one-way function |
| 21:32 |
sapier1 |
ok ok |
| 21:33 |
sapier1 |
but the problem isn't security of hash algorithm but unknown modsize limit of mmdb ;-) |
| 21:38 |
kahrl |
I wonder if should remove the color support from textlist when I add the tables |
| 21:38 |
kahrl |
if i* |
| 21:38 |
sapier1 |
tables? |
| 21:39 |
sapier1 |
I'm against removing color support there are many cases where colored list elements are very usefull |
| 21:39 |
kahrl |
http://paste.dy.fi/BJ9 |
| 21:40 |
sapier1 |
are you really sure this is usefull at all? I mean it's going to work of course but who the hell will be able to write this? |
| 21:40 |
kahrl |
yeah but the tables cover textlists as a very simple special case, and I don't like how you have to escape every textlist element starting with '#' |
| 21:40 |
kahrl |
oh I am coding away |
| 21:41 |
kahrl |
(and nobody cares to escape textlist elements starting with '#') |
| 21:41 |
sapier1 |
imho you're doing work better invested in a more complete solution |
| 21:42 |
sapier1 |
but as I'm sure you wont stop either ;-) |
| 21:42 |
kahrl |
what would that encompass? |
| 21:42 |
sapier1 |
I guess you already have read why I didn't do treeview so no need to discuss again |
| 21:42 |
kahrl |
I might have but it's been long ago |
| 21:43 |
kahrl |
if you find it in the logs link it, or re-tell |
| 21:43 |
sapier1 |
ok short I didn't do it because this is additional work to a already overcomplicated by design flawed gui language |
| 21:44 |
sapier1 |
formspec is nothing but another gui description language |
| 21:44 |
kahrl |
I don't see any replacement coming soon |
| 21:44 |
kahrl |
and we (imo) need a better looking serverlist to release 0.4.8 |
| 21:45 |
sapier1 |
maybe but adding even more features won't make the task easier and if someone is gonna do this all the work you did is wasted |
| 21:45 |
Exio4 |
the thing kahrl is coding will be useful "for laterz" |
| 21:45 |
sapier1 |
it's usefull for NOW |
| 21:46 |
sapier1 |
if the clean solution is implemented it's useless |
| 21:46 |
kahrl |
I guess if it seems useful it could be adapted to a new GUI thing |
| 21:46 |
sapier1 |
but of course I don't know if and when that is gonna happen |
| 21:46 |
Exio4 |
isn't kahrl implementing in-text colors for that? |
| 21:47 |
Exio4 |
(like it was "just that") |
| 21:47 |
kahrl |
Exio4, not really |
| 21:47 |
Exio4 |
ah |
| 21:47 |
kahrl |
you can set a color for each cell |
| 21:47 |
sapier1 |
no it can't be adapted as most of the work you do is defining parsing and evaluating data structures which most likely will be different if someone implements support for another more common gui description language |
| 21:48 |
sapier1 |
that doesn't make your work bad of course it's quite good ... I'm just afraid it's something as damage handling ... working but way to complex to be usefull |
| 21:49 |
kahrl |
the event handling can be reused (IGUIListBox and others can't be used without the hacks that are there now) |
| 21:50 |
sapier1 |
I'm not even sure if event handling (except lua part) can be reused if new gui isn't done with irrlicht gui elements for example |
| 21:51 |
sapier1 |
I suggest adding textlist compatibility support I guess it's not too difficult to map it to your new mechanism |
| 21:51 |
kahrl |
yep that's what I am doing |
| 21:51 |
kahrl |
GUITable has a setTable() and a setTextList() method ;) |
| 21:51 |
sapier1 |
kahrl how do I specify different table options for e.g. two tables in a formspec? |
| 21:52 |
kahrl |
tableoptions[] table[] tableoptions[] table[] |
| 21:52 |
sapier1 |
no no |
| 21:52 |
kahrl |
what's wrong this time |
| 21:52 |
sapier1 |
that's adding context sensitivity to formspec are you really really sure you want to open up this thing? |
| 21:53 |
kahrl |
isn't it effectively context sensitive already, with size[] |
| 21:53 |
sapier1 |
no |
| 21:53 |
kahrl |
and what's the problem when it is context sensitive |
| 21:54 |
sapier1 |
a second size overwrites first one |
| 21:54 |
proller |
https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/heat https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/liquid63 |
| 21:54 |
sapier1 |
it's not "wrong" but adds a lot of complexity |
| 21:56 |
kahrl |
an additional field in parserData is a lot of complexity? |
| 21:56 |
sapier1 |
e.g. what to do if options is missing? don't draw table at all? use default value? |
| 21:56 |
kahrl |
all options have default values |
| 21:57 |
sapier1 |
what if between options and tables is another field? use last options? yes that's all a matter of definition but you need to add this to documentation |
| 21:57 |
kahrl |
I think it already states that |
| 21:57 |
sapier1 |
no it doesn't |
| 21:58 |
sapier1 |
your examples show tables without table options so what options are used? |
| 21:58 |
sapier1 |
I guess default |
| 21:58 |
sapier1 |
but it'd be perfectly ok if last options set where used |
| 21:58 |
kahrl |
guess you can interpret "last" in different ways |
| 21:59 |
kahrl |
but yeah that is what is meant, and if there are none then the defaults are used |
| 21:59 |
kahrl |
you can use "tableoptions[]" to reset all options |
| 22:00 |
sapier1 |
so actualy you specify a single formspec isn't "sometext[]" anymore but can be a sequence of those elements too |
| 22:00 |
kahrl |
(if you say tableoptions[background=#AABBCC] table[...] tableoptions[background_alpha=#00] table[...], the second table doesn't use the background from the first tableoptions) |
| 22:01 |
sapier1 |
but you'd actually have to post an error in this case as the formspec definition is broken |
| 22:01 |
kahrl |
what? |
| 22:02 |
sapier1 |
sorry didn't read the table in there |
| 22:02 |
kahrl |
formspec doesn't have a way to report errors |
| 22:02 |
sapier1 |
error is reported to log only of course |
| 22:03 |
kahrl |
I won't add parsing for that kind of stuff |
| 22:04 |
kahrl |
if you say tableoptions[...] tableoptions[...] the first will be silently ignored |
| 22:04 |
sapier1 |
never mind I don't want to stop you just want to make sure you are aware you increase complexity level of formspec language by a whole class by doing it that way |
| 22:05 |
sapier1 |
no kharl thats wrong the second one needs to cause an error message as this is a invalid formspec tag |
| 22:05 |
kahrl |
huh? |
| 22:05 |
sapier1 |
there's no effect of that statement there's no use to do it that way |
| 22:06 |
sapier1 |
chances for this to be an error is 99.99999999% |
| 22:06 |
kahrl |
you can code a nop in many languages without causing an error |
| 22:06 |
kahrl |
(in fact the halting problem shows you can't even decide if some code is a nop) |
| 22:06 |
sapier1 |
"error" in formspec is comparable to a warning |
| 22:07 |
sapier1 |
as your table is a very very complex design you really should warn about invalid parts |
| 22:07 |
sapier1 |
you can't tell in general that's completely different from you can't tell |
| 22:08 |
kahrl |
I can see someone adding the same tableoptions[...] at the top of all his formspecs, to have certain defaults, but have (additional) tableoptions in formspecs that want different ones |
| 22:08 |
kahrl |
that shouldn't cause a warning |
| 22:08 |
sapier1 |
I just don't want another "damage system" cause where docs and implementation have been that bad I needed to use gdb do find out how it works |
| 22:09 |
kahrl |
besides trying to warn about such things would be the *only* thing that adds complexity to the parsing |
| 22:09 |
sapier1 |
I thought table options are used for the very next table only? |
| 22:09 |
kahrl |
no, I thought I said that |
| 22:10 |
sapier1 |
ok :-) I guess this is already first case of missunderstanding |
| 22:10 |
kahrl |
they stay until they are changed |
| 22:10 |
kahrl |
they affect any tables that are created while they are active |
| 22:11 |
sapier1 |
ok so the setup a context ... ok then the warning is bogus of course |
| 22:12 |
sapier1 |
is this same for tablecolumns? |
| 22:12 |
kahrl |
yeah |
| 22:13 |
sapier1 |
ok ... hope you know what you're doing ;-) |
| 22:15 |
kahrl |
no doubt this will be the most difficult formspec element to master, but there will be examples of it in the main menu |
| 22:15 |
sapier1 |
I'm sure it's gonna work somehow ... but I'm not convinced this is right direction to go |
| 22:17 |
kahrl |
basically what the formspec docs will be saying is: here are some simple tools for your formspec, use them, but if these aren't enough, here is an advanced tool that can do a lot more stuff |
| 22:18 |
sapier1 |
I suggest creating a classlike interface for this one maybe this will reduce complexity to a managable level |
| 22:18 |
kahrl |
classlike? |
| 22:19 |
kahrl |
don't know how that would work with the formspec syntax |
| 22:19 |
sapier1 |
e.g. local table = fs_table.create() |
| 22:19 |
sapier1 |
table.add_column(some name) |
| 22:19 |
sapier1 |
... |
| 22:19 |
kahrl |
stress will do that ;) |
| 22:19 |
sapier1 |
and last table.get_formspec() |
| 22:20 |
sapier1 |
at least you won't have to count your "," |
| 22:21 |
kahrl |
it'd be weird to have this in the core, but only for table and not for other elements |
| 22:21 |
sapier1 |
or maybe table.insert_text/image/(row,column,text/texture) |
| 22:21 |
sapier1 |
of course ;-) |
| 22:22 |
sapier1 |
but I'm almost sure if I'm gonna use that thing I'll write a interface like that because I usually forget some "," |
| 22:23 |
sapier1 |
have a look at the filterlist implementation that's similar, I didn't want to implement a filtered list for each tab on its own ;-) |
| 22:25 |
sapier1 |
btw are there any plans to release 0.4.8? |
| 22:25 |
PilzAdam |
I think 0.4.8 waits for kahrl HTTP fetch thingy |
| 22:25 |
sapier1 |
why is kahrl working on tables then? |
| 22:26 |
kahrl |
I'd really like to have the tables in the 0.4.8 main menu |
| 22:26 |
kahrl |
these text flags aren't gonna cut it |
| 22:26 |
sapier1 |
this is gonna delay 0.4.8 for additional 2-4 weeks ... long enough to get another "must have" feature |
| 22:27 |
sapier1 |
imho we should release more often ... at least as long as we have a stable version |
| 22:28 |
sapier1 |
and as far as I see current version is most solid one for quite some time |
| 22:28 |
kahrl |
the textlist bugs that I fixed recently would have been bad to be in a release |
| 22:29 |
sapier1 |
of course there are some bugfixes we should add |
| 22:29 |
sapier1 |
but no big feature enhancements |
| 22:29 |
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| 22:30 |
PilzAdam |
I dont like releases blocking too much development, and each release needs a feature freeze, so too frequent releases are not good |
| 22:30 |
sapier1 |
last version is 3 months ... that's biggest gap for quite a long time |
| 22:30 |
sapier1 |
to frequent? have you read what you wrote? ;-) |
| 22:30 |
PilzAdam |
I read what you wrote |
| 22:30 |
PilzAdam |
<sapier1> imho we should release more often |
| 22:31 |
kahrl |
aside from the odd thing here and there the stable and git versions should be mostly network compatible |
| 22:31 |
kahrl |
right now, unless I'm missing something |
| 22:31 |
PilzAdam |
there is this water glitch when connecting to an old server, should that be fixed? |
| 22:31 |
kahrl |
oh that |
| 22:31 |
sapier1 |
yes still git version is way more advanced than stable one and adding everything you want to add kahrl will delay release for at least another month |
| 22:32 |
sapier1 |
I expect it to be 2 |
| 22:32 |
sapier1 |
do we really want to exclude less experienced users from those features for that much additional time? |
| 22:33 |
kahrl |
building up anticipation is a good thing in the gamedev community ;) |
| 22:33 |
sapier1 |
you know trend is to do more ci? |
| 22:33 |
proller |
your glitch fixed here - https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/liquid63 |
| 22:34 |
PilzAdam |
proller, your "fix" is just commenting out my code, thats not good |
| 22:34 |
sapier1 |
we've even passed kernel innovation cycles by now ;-) |
| 22:35 |
sapier1 |
maybe we should use release branches? |
| 22:35 |
sapier1 |
so release branch is feature frozen while development on git branch can continue |
| 22:35 |
proller |
PilzAdam, your code strange, have errors and must no touch visual |
| 22:36 |
PilzAdam |
proller, if it doesnt change the drawtype then it looks weird with range of 2 or 3 |
| 22:36 |
kahrl |
we already don't have enough manpower to deal with all the pull requests, adding more rebasing and merging work isn't going to help |
| 22:36 |
proller |
PilzAdam, who will use your "feature" ? |
| 22:36 |
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| 22:37 |
sapier1 |
so we keep on doing our stuff for our selfs and discover community has gone due to boredome ? |
| 22:37 |
PilzAdam |
proller, how is that relevant? |
| 22:38 |
proller |
PilzAdam, my code allow to change number of water levels, its can be used in same way as your "range" |
| 22:38 |
kahrl |
I'm not paid so I don't really care how many people use or don't use minetest |
| 22:38 |
ShadowNinja |
+1 for sapier's release branch idea. Only merge new commits into it that areproven bugfixes. |
| 22:39 |
PilzAdam |
proller, hm? does your code change anything in normal liquids? |
| 22:39 |
kahrl |
when there are releases, I do want them to be of good quality |
| 22:39 |
proller |
PilzAdam, no |
| 22:39 |
PilzAdam |
so it cant be used instead of my code |
| 22:40 |
proller |
dont call them "normal" |
| 22:40 |
sapier1 |
kahrl I'm not paid too but I'm still interested in minetest to be a success ... it's disapointing to have none use it because this game is dead becaus it's not updated for half a year |
| 22:40 |
sapier1 |
the release branch would minimize the merge effort |
| 22:41 |
ShadowNinja |
It is startingto get a bit long... |
| 22:41 |
kahrl |
what keeps people interested is mostly the mods, not the engine |
| 22:41 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, minimize merge effort? |
| 22:41 |
kahrl |
and mods don't follow the engine release schedule |
| 22:41 |
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AllegedlyDead joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:41 |
sapier1 |
exactly and current git version is a huge jump in mod support |
| 22:42 |
ShadowNinja |
Mods depend on the engine, a lot of the nice mods depend on features like LuaVoxelManip. |
| 22:42 |
sapier1 |
the online modstore is a big benefit compared to old version that's why I want to get this thing out into wild |
| 22:43 |
sapier1 |
imho modstore is a "killer feature" delaying it will harm minetests spread |
| 22:43 |
kahrl |
use the time until the release to get all the popular mods into the modstore? |
| 22:44 |
PilzAdam |
to accomplish that you need to make the modstore actually useable |
| 22:44 |
kahrl |
if it is a killer feature it has to "launch" well |
| 22:44 |
sapier1 |
you know that this is a chicken egg problem |
| 22:44 |
sapier1 |
why add it if noone can use it? |
| 22:45 |
kahrl |
git users != noone |
| 22:45 |
sapier1 |
git users == nokia n900 users ... others == iphone users ... guess whom are more |
| 22:45 |
kahrl |
also it will ensure that people who only use stable will see their mod once the modstore launches in a release |
| 22:47 |
sapier1 |
there won't be any noticable mod count differenc if we launch in 2 weeks or 2 months ... ppl are lazy if you tell em it's 2 month they'll think "enough time I'll add it later" |
| 22:47 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, mmdb needs more developement, its not in a state for a release yet |
| 22:47 |
kahrl |
why do the authors have to be asked at all? most mods are WTFPL |
| 22:47 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier1: How does the mod manager work? I only see options to download or install mods that are already installed. |
| 22:48 |
PilzAdam |
ShadowNinja, click on "Download" |
| 22:48 |
PilzAdam |
its very unintuitive |
| 22:48 |
kahrl |
PilzAdam: I agree |
| 22:48 |
sapier1 |
any better options? |
| 22:49 |
ShadowNinja |
There, but it took about five seconds to load. |
| 22:49 |
proller |
PilzAdam, i dont know how to combine this place, your code incompatible with my |
| 22:49 |
sapier1 |
rename download to "browse modstore"? |
| 22:49 |
kahrl |
an interface similar to the firefox addon manager maybe |
| 22:49 |
ShadowNinja |
And the down arrow takes a few seconds too... |
| 22:49 |
sapier1 |
kahrl if you want to write this thing go on |
| 22:49 |
PilzAdam |
proller, make the drawtype depend on the finite_liquid setting |
| 22:49 |
kahrl |
maybe it should download the mod repository once and not on every page load |
| 22:50 |
sapier1 |
shadow it's not gonna get any faster it's downloading on the fly |
| 22:50 |
kahrl |
update once a day |
| 22:50 |
proller |
PilzAdam, new drawtype only for your feature? |
| 22:50 |
ShadowNinja |
It also shows four pages, two of them are empty. |
| 22:50 |
PilzAdam |
proller, no, not new drawtype, just an if(finite_liquid) |
| 22:50 |
proller |
client doesnt know it |
| 22:51 |
sapier1 |
yes those mods don't provide downloadable versions ... but this isn't told in overview |
| 22:51 |
ShadowNinja |
Also: WorldEdit isn't detected, which prings me to annother bug, I cannot enable WorldEdit because I have it installed inside a modpack. |
| 22:51 |
PilzAdam |
proller, oh; maybe it would be nice to have an addditionl liquidtype "finite" in the nodedef, since finite liquids dont need source and flowing |
| 22:52 |
sapier1 |
ok ... I understand you ppl want the golden edge version ... so I'm gonna wait until pilzadam requires a feature for his mods |
| 22:52 |
PilzAdam |
so its not a setting in minetest.conf anymore but up to mods to register their liquids as finite |
| 22:52 |
kahrl |
sapier1, it's just not usable as is |
| 22:52 |
ShadowNinja |
It adds WorldEdit to world.mt, not worldedit, worldedit_commands and worldedit_infinity. |
| 22:52 |
sapier1 |
no kahrl thats plain wrong it doesn fit your feelings |
| 22:52 |
ShadowNinja |
(Notice caps) |
| 22:53 |
kahrl |
my feeling are fine :P I know the code so I can use it |
| 22:53 |
sapier1 |
it's does everything it's designed for of course this can be done better ... there's always a thing that can be done better |
| 22:53 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, kahrl is right, its not very useable |
| 22:53 |
kahrl |
but everyone who talks about it is stumped by it |
| 22:53 |
ShadowNinja |
+1 for finite in nodedef, it would allow for things like oil. |
| 22:54 |
sapier1 |
the only ppl talking about it are the ppl who wanted to do it better for about a year but didn't do it |
| 22:54 |
proller |
PilzAdam, now source better for optimizing abm, |
| 22:54 |
PilzAdam |
proller, can you please write English? |
| 22:54 |
proller |
and "finite" - now incorrect, better "real" or.. |
| 22:55 |
sapier1 |
so yes this is a first step and yes it needs rework ... but NO its not unusable |
| 22:55 |
proller |
PilzAdam, no |
| 22:55 |
sapier1 |
maybe "download" isn't best label for that button but switching to e.g. "browse online" isn't a big deal |
| 22:56 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, the text is not a big problem, but the whole GUI design |
| 22:56 |
PilzAdam |
the button is under the "Installed mods" list, so people figure it has something to do with it |
| 22:57 |
sapier1 |
pilzadam I guess I'm gonna ignore your jelous comments |
| 22:57 |
PilzAdam |
the "Remove" and "rename" buttons, which actually modify the list, are somewhere else |
| 22:57 |
proller |
mixing finite and old liquids is hard, now only one queue, its need to split |
| 22:58 |
sapier1 |
and installing a mod doesn't modify the list of course |
| 22:58 |
kahrl |
sapier1: what? what PA says about the buttons is right |
| 22:58 |
sapier1 |
no he isn't |
| 22:58 |
sapier1 |
did you mention the free room above the depends list? |
| 22:58 |
kahrl |
it's a basic rule of UI design that things that belong together should be positioned together |
| 22:59 |
sapier1 |
this is reserved for mod icon and description |
| 22:59 |
* VanessaE |
peeks in |
| 22:59 |
sapier1 |
not beeing present atm |
| 22:59 |
VanessaE |
saw the previous chat about the mmdb... tried to add pipeworks just now and it didn't show in the web page's list after adding. |
| 23:00 |
VanessaE |
(figured I'd get a jump on it before 0.4.8 goes out) |
| 23:00 |
kahrl |
VanessaE: you'll have a little bit of time ;) |
| 23:00 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: I added a mod and it worked, although the screenshots don't. |
| 23:00 |
VanessaE |
ok :) |
| 23:00 |
sapier1 |
so the right half is for modifying the thing described above (of course htat information isn't complete) |
| 23:00 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, if the whole area is about local mods, how should the user figure out that the bottom left corner is about downloading them from an external repo? |
| 23:01 |
sapier1 |
while the left one is list manipulation |
| 23:01 |
VanessaE |
oh there it goes. |
| 23:01 |
VanessaE |
it just took a bit for the list to update. |
| 23:01 |
kahrl |
imo the mod manager should initially show the online modlist |
| 23:01 |
sapier1 |
no |
| 23:01 |
ShadowNinja |
Better to add mods before the release. And the mmdb also needs a redesign, the|xyz posted a really nice one. |
| 23:02 |
sapier1 |
if you do so kahrl you kick out everyone without curl support |
| 23:02 |
kahrl |
the users who need it will see an empty list which isn't useful at all |
| 23:02 |
sapier1 |
it is usefull as you can install mods from local files |
| 23:02 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, downloading a mod is more common than removing installed ones |
| 23:02 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: actually, I think the way the web page works now is fine. Just that screenshot/title pic issue, and a minor layout tweak is all that are needed |
| 23:02 |
sapier1 |
thanks for your oppinion o blessed one |
| 23:02 |
kahrl |
the vast majority use the windows build, which has curl support |
| 23:03 |
PilzAdam |
btw, "Configure" in the world selection should be named something like "Mods" so its more obvious to users what it actually does |
| 23:03 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: This is what he posted: http://i.imgur.com/MZyGxJN.png |
| 23:03 |
sapier1 |
your argumentation is inconsistent "most users are git users" and now you tell vast majority use windows builds |
| 23:03 |
VanessaE |
ew. |
| 23:03 |
VanessaE |
that's just too spartan |
| 23:03 |
sapier1 |
plz decide what you wanna tell me |
| 23:03 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, nobody said that most users are git users |
| 23:04 |
kahrl |
please show me where I said that |
| 23:04 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: Notice that the download/no release button overlaps with everything under it? |
| 23:04 |
sapier1 |
(00:47:45) kahrl: git users != noone --> impies you assume a at least big git userbase |
| 23:04 |
kahrl |
no, that statement implies there is at least 1 git user |
| 23:04 |
PilzAdam |
no, he implied that there is 1 or more |
| 23:04 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: well yeah that page needs some tuning |
| 23:05 |
sapier1 |
you're cherrypicking and reeinterpreting to your current needs ... no use to continue this discussion |
| 23:05 |
ShadowNinja |
I like that desgin, anyone else? |
| 23:06 |
kahrl |
so I can work on the table code again? :P |
| 23:06 |
proller |
PilzAdam, old liquid can be switched to getLevel/getMaxLevel and starts support change number of levels |
| 23:06 |
sapier1 |
do what you want with main menu I'm out until you settled what you wanna do make minetest your privat playground kicking all different oppinions or make it a successfull project |
| 23:06 |
PilzAdam |
proller, I dont like how you want to push the whole core into finite liquids |
| 23:07 |
kahrl |
sapier1, I don't know why but you seem to get very protective of your code and ideas |
| 23:07 |
kahrl |
in a "don't change that!" sense |
| 23:08 |
sapier1 |
no I'm not protecitve I don't have any problems with adding your tables |
| 23:08 |
sapier1 |
I'm just annoyed all things I did are endlessly delayed although they are way better than before |
| 23:09 |
VanessaE |
hm, another issue - why are there only ever 12 entries shown on the mmdb page? |
| 23:09 |
VanessaE |
OH |
| 23:09 |
proller |
PilzAdam, "finite" now only in Map::transformLiquidsFinite, other changes about all liquids |
| 23:09 |
VanessaE |
that's pages 1 and 2.. not "there are 12 pages" |
| 23:09 |
VanessaE |
duh |
| 23:09 |
sapier1 |
minetest needs a mod manager if someone comes up tomorrow with a way better one than the one I did I'll be the first to demand releasing that one |
| 23:09 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, all the annyoing things were fixed lately by kahrl (lists jumping arround etc.) which you have labeled at "wont fix" before |
| 23:09 |
sapier1 |
but I don't think this is gonna happen |
| 23:10 |
VanessaE |
put dashes between the numbers and move them up next to "Pages:". |
| 23:10 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, this gives me the impression that you dont have high quality standards for releases |
| 23:10 |
sapier1 |
yes if you have a look at the amout of work required to fix it and the benefit they gave you know why I didn't want to do it right upfront |
| 23:11 |
sapier1 |
you're right I'm for release early release often |
| 23:11 |
PilzAdam |
you underestimate the benefit |
| 23:11 |
sapier1 |
as adding all that work creates facts whil we don't even know if this is gonna be the design ppl want |
| 23:12 |
kahrl |
if the UI behaves extremely annoyingly users are going to reject it |
| 23:13 |
kahrl |
it has to work reasonably well to get people's real opinions |
| 23:13 |
kahrl |
besides, deleting code is cheap |
| 23:13 |
sapier1 |
ok and we need pretty server flags for a reasonable well working ui true? |
| 23:13 |
PilzAdam |
if I would have known about this beahaviour of the Lua menu then I would have never agreed to merge it |
| 23:14 |
sapier1 |
if you didn't know about it that's your fault, it's been there for about a month prior beeing added |
| 23:14 |
VanessaE |
also, all of the mods that come as part of minetest_game (or just the game itself? something) need to be added to the deps/soft deps lists. |
| 23:15 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, just wanna give you an impression how big these bugs are |
| 23:15 |
PilzAdam |
*were |
| 23:15 |
sapier1 |
and that this wasn't 100% finished wasn't a secret it's been told prior merging |
| 23:16 |
sapier1 |
I don't deny there where big bugs when beeing merged that wasn't avoidable as none of us did even know how old menu did behave |
| 23:17 |
proller |
https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/heat -- small temp-humidity improvement |
| 23:17 |
sapier1 |
but the big ones are gone and kahrl didn't only fix bugs in mainmenu some of the bugs have been present before too |
| 23:17 |
sapier1 |
e.g. doubleclick bug |
| 23:18 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, but these bugs were fixed after being upstream for rather long time |
| 23:18 |
PilzAdam |
so frequent releases arent possible (at least in this case) |
| 23:18 |
sapier1 |
of course we can't release a version not beeing usable but that's not the case atm |
| 23:19 |
PilzAdam |
there are 3 people complaining about the modstore |
| 23:19 |
PilzAdam |
so it might be not useable |
| 23:19 |
kahrl |
at least in my case, it took me quite some time to get used to the new mainmenu code |
| 23:20 |
kahrl |
that's why I wouldn't have been able to fix the bugs in july |
| 23:20 |
sapier1 |
I don't blame anyone for having to learn how code works that's pretty normal |
| 23:22 |
sapier1 |
my simple question is do we want to give ppl chance to try it out and use their feedback for a real good version or do you wanna add your personal golden edge until christmas and then tell ppl "its done that way, I believe it's perfect, get used to it" |
| 23:23 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, people are free to test the git version; there are even windows build of its so we get quite a lot of "testers" |
| 23:23 |
PilzAdam |
its not like every not released commit is hidden to the public |
| 23:23 |
sapier1 |
I'll gladly help rewrite it to adjust it to users needs but I'm not gonna rewrite it to match pilzadams/kahrls personal feelings just to rewrite it again if other ppl feel different |
| 23:25 |
sapier1 |
I alread did rewrite parts to match pa s feelings just to rewrite it again because it wasn't right either |
| 23:25 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, any examples for that? |
| 23:25 |
sapier1 |
background |
| 23:25 |
PilzAdam |
can you explain that a bit more? |
| 23:25 |
sapier1 |
there have been 3 wrong versions how background is set |
| 23:26 |
sapier1 |
no one did know what's correct but noone did admit to not know |
| 23:26 |
PilzAdam |
I never changed my mind regarding the background, and it fits what we have currently |
| 23:27 |
sapier1 |
of course you're perfect pa |
| 23:27 |
PilzAdam |
I always told you how it behaved before the Lua menu |
| 23:28 |
sapier1 |
no you didn't you've been wrong about overlay too |
| 23:28 |
kahrl |
in all this time spent talking somebody could implement a perfect modstore :P |
| 23:29 |
sapier1 |
I guess you're gonna present a perfect bugfree modstore tomorrow along with tables and http fetcher? |
| 23:29 |
sapier1 |
of course don't forget about the offline modmanager feature and add the screenshots and description to all existing mods |
| 23:29 |
kahrl |
don't take it so serious man |
| 23:29 |
PilzAdam |
sapier1, judging the code kahrl submited in the past that is not very unlikely ;-) |
| 23:31 |
sapier1 |
kahrl I guess you already mentioned I'm not gonna start big tasks anymore for quite a while due to merge policy enforced ... it's almost unpredictable what's gonna be merged and what not |
| 23:32 |
sapier1 |
to mee it looks like if a core developer is interested in a particular commit every crap is merged if something doesn't match his current feelings a patch can be not good enough to be merged |
| 23:33 |
sapier1 |
and this is anyoing and frustrating |
| 23:35 |
sapier1 |
and PA your comment is quite useless no matter how good kahrl is |
| 23:35 |
kahrl |
I don't have a solution to that, merging pull requests is unrewarding work so it's rarely done |
| 23:36 |
sapier1 |
this could be interpreted as "either be a core developer or fork it yourself" |
| 23:36 |
ShadowNinja |
64 now, remember when 40 was very high? |
| 23:37 |
kahrl |
forking is always an option... for example I don't think minetest-delta was harmful, in fact it seemed like a very productive fork |
| 23:38 |
kahrl |
and most of it got merged back into minetest-c55 eventually |
| 23:38 |
sapier1 |
that's an issue because I couln't even do a cleanup to thise things I wrote because I'd need to rebase it 20 times untill it's gonna added again |
| 23:38 |
sapier1 |
it's easy to you kahrl because you can add it as soon as it's finished |
| 23:39 |
sapier1 |
if I'd rewrote modmanage I guess it'd be october until it'd be merged |
| 23:42 |
kahrl |
sapier1, being a core developer makes some things easier, yes, but I still have to wait sometimes to get some things merged |
| 23:42 |
kahrl |
either because no one is around, or it sucks, or it conflicts with something else going on at the moment |
| 23:43 |
kahrl |
it just reduces the number of other people having to agree with it from 2 to 1 |
| 23:43 |
sapier1 |
I know you can't do everything |
| 23:44 |
sapier1 |
no the big difference is what you already told "merge is not a rewarded" ... you can do it yourself no need for someone to have interest in merging |
| 23:44 |
kahrl |
if I did that I'd get kicked out of the dev team almost instantly |
| 23:44 |
sapier1 |
I guess I'd rewrite about 20-50% of mainmenu after current feedback ... but it's useless |
| 23:44 |
proller |
https://github.com/proller/minetest/compare/heat -- 3 days waiting for approve |
| 23:45 |
PilzAdam |
proller, maybe thats because several other core devs already told you to develop that in a fork? |
| 23:45 |
sapier1 |
kahrl I don't mean you can add it without approval but you can add it instantly after approval |
| 23:45 |
sapier1 |
to be more precise "YOU" can add it |
| 23:46 |
proller |
PilzAdam, and make new game weatertest? |
| 23:46 |
sapier1 |
to others it's not likely that something is even approoved but not added because noone cares enough to add |
| 23:46 |
sapier1 |
unlikely of course |
| 23:46 |
kahrl |
if some pull request gets 2 approves it always gets merged relatively quickly |
| 23:46 |
kahrl |
I haven't seen otherwise |
| 23:46 |
kahrl |
the problem is getting the approvals |
| 23:47 |
sapier1 |
I don't have numbers for this but it doesn't feel to be so not only to things I suggested |
| 23:48 |
kahrl |
if it happens feel free to mention it here, that's what chat is for |
| 23:48 |
sapier1 |
you know how often I mentioned different pull requests allways getting reply of a single core dev but rarely 2 devs at same time |
| 23:48 |
kahrl |
I don't see a reason it wouldn't get merged in such a case, except "either because no one is around, [...], or it conflicts with something else going on at the moment" |
| 23:49 |
sapier1 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/846 for example I don't know exactly how often I mentioned this one at least 3 times |
| 23:49 |
kahrl |
the same commit can get approvals from 2 devs at different times |
| 23:50 |
sapier1 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/640 is another candidate too |
| 23:51 |
kahrl |
sapier1: did anyone actually approve them? |
| 23:52 |
VanessaE |
that one pull there would mean deleting about half of plants_lib :P |
| 23:52 |
VanessaE |
(which is a good thing) |
| 23:52 |
sapier1 |
as ppl don't actually say "I herby hnoroably approov commit xxx" I can't tell this for sure |
| 23:52 |
VanessaE |
maybe what's needed is a signed-off-by tag? |
| 23:53 |
kahrl |
well that's the problem: getting someone to actually review the code (which is hard work) |
| 23:53 |
kahrl |
I mean, for #640, I looked at the code briefly and found some minor things I thought were problems, and mentioned them |
| 23:53 |
kahrl |
but I never thoroughly reviewed the code |
| 23:53 |
sapier1 |
the only issue mentioned to 640 is that there are similar but yet different functions present ant those could possibly be merged with a some time ... I guess this is what you mean |
| 23:54 |
sapier1 |
-a+e |
| 23:54 |
kahrl |
in cases like omnicleanup where no one is ever going to review the code, yes being a core dev makes things drastically easier |
| 23:55 |
sapier1 |
actualy beeing a non core dev only minor changes have a real chance to get merged ... I'm still astonished how I managed to get scriptapi split as well as mainmenu in. |
| 23:56 |
ShadowNinja |
You're lucky if your pull gets merged at all, regardless of it's size. One line changes can wait months before being merged. |
| 23:59 |
kahrl |
remember that even for one line changes, code review means thinking of all the places that might be affected by the change |
| 23:59 |
kahrl |
it's not simple at all |
| 23:59 |
sapier1 |
maybe really enforcing merge policys would make merging at least more transparent |
| 23:59 |
sapier1 |
e.g. 2 core devs have to comment a commit as "approved" |
