| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
Taoki |
ok. What's different in /survival and /build? |
| 00:00 |
ShadowNinja |
very little atm |
| 00:00 |
kaeza |
survival Is well, survival. the bones mod, hostile mobs, etc |
| 00:00 |
Taoki |
nice. There are hostime lobs already in survival? |
| 00:00 |
kaeza |
build is for creative servers |
| 00:01 |
kaeza |
not yet |
| 00:01 |
kaeza |
but it's planned IIRC |
| 00:03 |
Taoki |
Ah. So the Creative system setting will go away and be replaced by that? |
| 00:05 |
ShadowNinja |
no, creative is in common |
| 00:05 |
ShadowNinja |
I think there should be a creative privilege |
| 00:05 |
ShadowNinja |
Easier than giveme and only for select players |
| 00:08 |
Taoki |
ok. Weird that a separate gametype is being used then |
| 00:13 |
Taoki |
So... will players have collisions with each other now? |
| 00:13 |
Taoki |
Just saw a commit about object to object collisions |
| 00:14 |
kaeza |
hmm... will this also affect item entities? |
| 00:14 |
kaeza |
I gotta test this |
| 00:14 |
PilzAdam |
Taoki, actually no |
| 00:14 |
Taoki |
Would be nice |
| 00:14 |
PilzAdam |
only palyer <-> Lua entity |
| 00:15 |
Taoki |
ok. Hope to see the player - player soon too, great update :) |
| 00:15 |
PilzAdam |
ehm, I think Lua entity dont collide with the player |
| 00:20 |
Taoki |
perhaps with each other |
| 02:25 |
|
dexter0 joined #minetest-dev |
| 02:26 |
|
kaeza1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:10 |
hmmmm |
it seems that malformed block data can get serverthread stuck in an infinite loop |
| 03:11 |
Exio |
malformed block? what? |
| 03:12 |
Exio |
in the map? |
| 03:12 |
Exio |
(file) |
| 03:12 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 03:12 |
hmmmm |
well, both really. |
| 03:13 |
hmmmm |
looks like in NodeMetadata::deSerialize, Inventory::deSerialize |
| 03:13 |
hmmmm |
feeding in the line to istringstream |
| 03:14 |
Exio |
i think i got it |
| 03:14 |
hmmmm |
so we know there needs to be some sort of additional check |
| 03:14 |
hmmmm |
most importantly, we need to see why it hangs up like that |
| 03:15 |
hmmmm |
something to do with locale |
| 03:15 |
hmmmm |
that's pretty unnerving, though. to think that istringstream can hang a program by passing along some special bytes |
| 03:16 |
|
kaeza1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:16 |
hmmmm |
well, i'll put that aside right now and focus on getting my program to work |
| 03:21 |
hmmmm |
oh. |
| 03:21 |
hmmmm |
it's not that the ctor of istringstream hanging, it's the loop condition itself |
| 03:22 |
hmmmm |
it only breaks if name == "EndInventory" or "end" |
| 03:28 |
hmmmm |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d01b74d00a39e38a898265adc0dbd3f15493cdc7 |
| 03:52 |
|
VanessaE joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:31 |
* VanessaE |
notes that latest commit and wonders what effect it'll have on her setup |
| 04:31 |
VanessaE |
(probably none, with my luck ;) ) |
| 05:16 |
hmmmm |
:D |
| 05:16 |
hmmmm |
http://ompldr.org/vaHdxZQ |
| 05:17 |
hmmmm |
that's not just any old block of cobble.. that's MY block of cobble, created external to minetest |
| 05:17 |
VanessaE |
working on a map editor? |
| 05:17 |
hmmmm |
sorta |
| 05:18 |
hmmmm |
it's easy to underestimate how much crap goes into saving a single block |
| 05:18 |
hmmmm |
i thought it would've been something that i can do in an hour or so |
| 05:18 |
hmmmm |
and it's in C too, so i had to rewrite a lot of it |
| 05:20 |
VanessaE |
who knows, maybe what you've just done outside the game could have implications for use inside the engine |
| 05:20 |
hmmmm |
nah. |
| 05:25 |
VanessaE |
well good luck with it anyway |
| 05:54 |
|
proller__ joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:00 |
hmmmm |
jesus christ.. http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Data_values#Data |
| 07:00 |
hmmmm |
minecraft really puts those 8 bytes to good use |
| 07:01 |
|
celeron55 joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:01 |
hmmmm |
i think we should start using param1 for more things |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
I forget, what can it hold now besides light values? |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
no, that's param2 |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
oh |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
right |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
param1 is for facedir and liquid levels and that's it |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
param2 is facedir. |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
hrmm |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
dunno about liquid levels. |
| 07:02 |
celeron55 |
what |
| 07:03 |
celeron55 |
light and facedir is in different parameter |
| 07:03 |
hmmmm |
oh yeah you're right |
| 07:03 |
hmmmm |
hmm |
| 07:03 |
hmmmm |
but that's beside the point |
| 07:04 |
hmmmm |
the point is that most of what minecraft stores is like 4 bits |
| 07:04 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L294 |
| 07:04 |
hmmmm |
i think we can solve a lot of problems by using param2 better |
| 07:05 |
celeron55 |
i've always had some kind of more clever allocation of the bits in mind but hadn't come up with anything (and hadn't had too much real use for such) |
| 07:05 |
hmmmm |
they store the dye color for wool in a nibble |
| 07:06 |
hmmmm |
now don't you think we ought to do something similar? |
| 07:06 |
hmmmm |
"colortransformlike" |
| 07:06 |
celeron55 |
many people want to use facedir for almost everything they make, so that leaves only the upper 3 bits |
| 07:07 |
celeron55 |
and nodeboxes require param1 to be light so that leaves no much room |
| 07:07 |
hmmmm |
if you look at vanessa's server, the majority of the crap is the same exact block with a different color |
| 07:08 |
VanessaE |
now that I could agree with |
| 07:08 |
hmmmm |
the modders who make these things have too much time on their hands |
| 07:08 |
VanessaE |
but the color transform has to be flexible of course |
| 07:09 |
hmmmm |
but anyway i don't think it's hard |
| 07:09 |
celeron55 |
i don't think there are other options here than defining some special metadata fields for color transforms and whatever |
| 07:09 |
VanessaE |
a mod should be able to at least specify hue, saturation, and lightness. |
| 07:09 |
hmmmm |
what if you register a set of 8 colors that will be used if the node also has facedir |
| 07:09 |
celeron55 |
a few bits isn't flexible enough |
| 07:09 |
hmmmm |
and then a set of 64 colors if there is no facedir defined |
| 07:09 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: not good enough unfortunately. |
| 07:10 |
hmmmm |
why isn't that good enough |
| 07:10 |
VanessaE |
well for starters, there are 89 colors in the standard set |
| 07:10 |
celeron55 |
and for starters, because VanessaE wants to use facedir for everything 8) |
| 07:10 |
VanessaE |
but more to the point, you'd be preventing such things as stairs from being colored. |
| 07:10 |
hmmmm |
that's completely arbitrary and ridiculous |
| 07:10 |
hmmmm |
why 89 |
| 07:10 |
VanessaE |
(beyond your suggested 8-color palette) |
| 07:11 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: because that's where I thought to draw the line when I wrote Unified Dyes, and that's what most mods that have dozens of colors use. |
| 07:11 |
hmmmm |
well i hope that would encourage people to not make everything possible facedir |
| 07:11 |
VanessaE |
the exceptions are Stained Glass and Unified Bricks, which define even more than the standard set. |
| 07:11 |
hmmmm |
well 89 colors is not an even number, you should've made it 64 |
| 07:11 |
hmmmm |
wait, why did i say 64 |
| 07:11 |
VanessaE |
12 colors in several shades, plus 5 greys. |
| 07:12 |
VanessaE |
that's why it's an odd number |
| 07:13 |
hmmmm |
just trying to think of how this would work |
| 07:13 |
hmmmm |
well, right off the bat, you'd be able to reduce the 89 nodes to 12 |
| 07:13 |
VanessaE |
yep |
| 07:13 |
VanessaE |
seems to me you'll need 3 bytes per node to properly set the hue/saturation/lightness offset |
| 07:14 |
hmmmm |
no, no |
| 07:14 |
hmmmm |
read up, i said you'll be able to register a color table |
| 07:14 |
VanessaE |
oh I missed that part |
| 07:14 |
VanessaE |
in that case, you'd need less than one byte |
| 07:14 |
VanessaE |
I could see that |
| 07:14 |
celeron55 |
hey, that is actually an interesting idea |
| 07:14 |
VanessaE |
but I presume it would be a global color lookup table |
| 07:14 |
celeron55 |
it could just be in the node definition as a simple list |
| 07:15 |
hmmmm |
yes, so you'll be able to fit all 89 colors in one node for a non-facedir thing |
| 07:15 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: part of the node's regular metadata |
| 07:15 |
hmmmm |
for facedir things you need to define 12 of them |
| 07:15 |
hmmmm |
eh |
| 07:15 |
hmmmm |
we don't need to use metadata all the time guys |
| 07:16 |
hmmmm |
that's heavier than what i'm proposing, by a lot |
| 07:16 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: ehm... well, as a special case, with meta_set_nodedef that would be possible; but VERY wasteful |
| 07:16 |
VanessaE |
well of course not, but doing so means no new map format or network protocol |
| 07:16 |
hmmmm |
this doesn't require a new map format.. |
| 07:16 |
hmmmm |
this is a bump in ContentFeatures |
| 07:16 |
VanessaE |
ah |
| 07:16 |
hmmmm |
it'd be an additional field |
| 07:16 |
VanessaE |
gotchya |
| 07:16 |
hmmmm |
and then if the colors are present, that'll be added along |
| 07:16 |
VanessaE |
I tend to forget you guys made that mode flexible than it used to be |
| 07:17 |
VanessaE |
more* |
| 07:17 |
VanessaE |
ok, so I generally agree with your idea |
| 07:17 |
celeron55 |
...ehm, how it was made "more flexible"? |
| 07:17 |
celeron55 |
i don't think i remember anything like that |
| 07:17 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: nevermind. maybe I'm getting mixed up again. |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
by having a version for each serialized class |
| 07:18 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: that has always been the case for ContentFeatures |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 07:18 |
VanessaE |
but 64 colors? I dunno about that - surely one would want to cover the largest current standard (insert xkcd comic here) |
| 07:18 |
hmmmm |
good thing we're the ones who make the standard |
| 07:19 |
celeron55 |
8) |
| 07:19 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 07:20 |
hmmmm |
but anyway the color idea was just one thing |
| 07:20 |
celeron55 |
(by the way, ContentFeatures should really be renamed NodeDef) |
| 07:20 |
celeron55 |
for some reason it's been left around with that ancient name |
| 07:21 |
VanessaE |
stained glass defines 108 colors, so we need at least 128 to cover that if the idea is to reduce such things down to one node. |
| 07:21 |
hmmmm |
look at what else the in-node-data is used for, redstone/rail power, damage level, height |
| 07:21 |
hmmmm |
erm wait a minute, why did i say 128 either |
| 07:22 |
hmmmm |
i meant 256 |
| 07:22 |
hmmmm |
i am confused because i'm tired |
| 07:22 |
VanessaE |
256 makes sense. |
| 07:22 |
VanessaE |
and certainly covers every probable use of the idea. |
| 07:22 |
celeron55 |
we need two modes of setting color; one is coloring grayscale things with RGB (possibly leaving already colored things as-is; easy to do in the engine); the other is the hue/saturation/lightness skew that VanessaE's unified dyes does |
| 07:23 |
celeron55 |
but that is easy to do |
| 07:23 |
VanessaE |
sounds fair. |
| 07:23 |
hmmmm |
wait why do we need that |
| 07:23 |
VanessaE |
and really, if you were to choose one, RGB is Good Enough â„¢ |
| 07:24 |
hmmmm |
i still don't understand what's wrong with defining a table of colors |
| 07:24 |
celeron55 |
well, at least we need the first one |
| 07:24 |
celeron55 |
i don't actually know if the second one is required 8) |
| 07:24 |
VanessaE |
I don't think it is, really |
| 07:24 |
VanessaE |
I only chose HSL because it is vaguely human readable |
| 07:25 |
hmmmm |
you can make a lua function in builtin to convert between the two |
| 07:25 |
VanessaE |
exactly. |
| 07:25 |
hmmmm |
ugh |
| 07:25 |
VanessaE |
converting between the two systems is, afaik, pretty well worked out. |
| 07:25 |
hmmmm |
why did i shovel this onto myself |
| 07:25 |
celeron55 |
i tend to shovel stuff like that onto myself too; the key here is just not do it :-D |
| 07:26 |
VanessaE |
and indeed I already settled on RGB values for the 89-color set long ago |
| 07:26 |
celeron55 |
focus on something and the rest is just talk; it's how the world works |
| 07:26 |
hmmmm |
alright, todo: optimize find_nodes_in_area, fix clearobjects, color param, block sending do-over, mapgen v7 |
| 07:26 |
hmmmm |
o |
| 07:26 |
celeron55 |
the other alternative is getting to work 8h/day on this and asking money for it (it's also called work) |
| 07:26 |
hmmmm |
i'll do them in that order* |
| 07:26 |
VanessaE |
here's the official set, if you care: https://github.com/VanessaE/unifieddyes/blob/master/colors.txt |
| 07:27 |
hmmmm |
the thing is i talk about it like it's all such far off stuff |
| 07:27 |
hmmmm |
but in reality if i just sit down and work at it, each item can be done in like a week |
| 07:27 |
hmmmm |
err, way less |
| 07:28 |
hmmmm |
again; i wish i was multithreaded |
| 07:28 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: don't we all. |
| 08:15 |
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| 08:37 |
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| 08:38 |
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| 09:40 |
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| 10:13 |
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| 10:50 |
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| 10:50 |
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| 11:51 |
|
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| 12:57 |
sfan5 |
thexyz, celeron55: is it acceptable if my guidelines checking script( http://forum.minetest.net/profile.php?id=4833 ) autmatically makes posts in mod releases topics? |
| 13:13 |
|
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| 13:15 |
celeron55 |
sounds somewhat floody |
| 13:16 |
celeron55 |
i guess it's reasonable if that makes it unnecessary for a moderator to say anything, and it's good at avoiding false alarms |
| 13:17 |
|
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| 13:18 |
sfan5 |
my script sees "wtfpl" (and other common licenses) as license even if the word "license" is not stated one |
| 13:20 |
sfan5 |
the mod releases forum has an awful topic without mistake quote |
| 13:42 |
|
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| 13:42 |
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Jordach joined #minetest-dev |
| 13:56 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: -> avg. Mistakes per Topic: 1.23778501629 |
| 14:03 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:12 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: so.. yes or no? |
| 14:32 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:32 |
PilzAdam |
has anyone anything against this? https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commits/ores |
| 15:32 |
PilzAdam |
Jeija and I have tested it and its pretty good now |
| 15:48 |
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| 15:50 |
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| 15:53 |
Exio |
hi hmmmm, anything more for the todo list? |
| 15:53 |
hmmmm |
?? |
| 15:55 |
Exio |
everytime i just read the backlog i see more things in your TODO list :P |
| 15:56 |
hmmmm |
i |
| 15:56 |
hmmmm |
i'll update the todo list on the dev wiki* |
| 15:56 |
hmmmm |
gotta hate how ' and enter are so close together |
| 15:56 |
Exio |
hehe |
| 15:59 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commits/ores are you ok with this? |
| 16:00 |
hmmmm |
sure |
| 16:01 |
hmmmm |
so let's see, that's diamond and gold, now we need copper, silver, and what was the other thing we agreed on |
| 16:03 |
PilzAdam |
what should be the use of it? |
| 16:04 |
hmmmm |
copper has use for mesecons already, and it could be smelted with iron to make bronze |
| 16:04 |
hmmmm |
as for silver, that's just like gold i guess |
| 16:04 |
hmmmm |
i don't remember the fifth one |
| 16:05 |
hmmmm |
also, this shouldn't be a direct MoreOres copy like I figured... |
| 16:05 |
hmmmm |
we are taking less than they had originally |
| 16:06 |
PilzAdam |
maybe bronze + steel tools makes them last longer? |
| 16:06 |
hmmmm |
we can alias the ores that are in moreores to "moreores:blah", but moreores would need to remove what we added into default |
| 16:06 |
hmmmm |
basically we need cooperation with the author of moreores |
| 16:06 |
hmmmm |
yeah, sure, sounds good |
| 16:06 |
PilzAdam |
yea, I will talk to Calinou |
| 16:08 |
hmmmm |
also LuaJIT still isn't in upstream.... we need to add that in before 0.4.6 |
| 16:08 |
hmmmm |
it's just such a huge benefit, it'd be wrong not to |
| 16:08 |
PilzAdam |
why not directly after 0.4.6 |
| 16:08 |
hmmmm |
because then people have to wait |
| 16:08 |
hmmmm |
i figure, why not slap all these speed improvements on at once |
| 16:08 |
PilzAdam |
but we have time to fix bugs |
| 16:08 |
hmmmm |
will there be any bugs? |
| 16:09 |
hmmmm |
i thought it was well tested |
| 16:09 |
PilzAdam |
only by RBA and VanessaE AFAIK |
| 16:09 |
PilzAdam |
and they tend to... not see bugs if they want it to be added |
| 16:09 |
hmmmm |
mmmmm... |
| 16:10 |
hmmmm |
alright, we'll save luajit for 0.4.7 |
| 16:10 |
PilzAdam |
I guess levelDB has to wait too |
| 16:10 |
Exio |
i just tested it |
| 16:10 |
Exio |
and i didn't see anything wrong or so |
| 16:10 |
hmmmm |
yeah levelDB and luajit will be put in together, it's decided |
| 16:11 |
PilzAdam |
oh, I see a problem in copper + steel tools: the wear of the tools will be lost, so its a 100% repair |
| 16:11 |
PilzAdam |
I dont think thats good |
| 16:12 |
PilzAdam |
so we need to make the bronze first |
| 16:13 |
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| 16:13 |
hmmmm |
i'd say eventually we should put anvils in anyway |
| 16:13 |
Exio |
how they would work in MT? |
| 16:13 |
celeron55 |
sfan5: i don't care about anything else than how many false errors it's likely to post; get that down to like under 5% of topics and it's good |
| 16:14 |
Jordach |
i will highlight that oldcoder uses levelDB for all his worlds |
| 16:14 |
Jordach |
and no-one has complained that they have broken |
| 16:14 |
Jordach |
(in the slightest) |
| 16:15 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: how would I notify all the mod authors if my script only posts in 5% of the topics |
| 16:15 |
celeron55 |
sfan5: you didn't understand |
| 16:15 |
celeron55 |
do you understand what a false error is? |
| 16:15 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 16:15 |
sfan5 |
... |
| 16:16 |
celeron55 |
do you understand what limiting the rate of false errors means? |
| 16:16 |
sfan5 |
i thought you meant the general posts |
| 16:16 |
* sfan5 |
understood now |
| 16:17 |
celeron55 |
as long as it doesn't accuse people of things they haven't done wrong, everyone will be happy |
| 16:18 |
sfan5 |
it also adds "\nIf you believe I have made a Mistake contact [url=http://forum.minetest.net/profile.php?id=239]sfan5[/url]" |
| 16:18 |
sfan5 |
to the message |
| 16:19 |
sfan5 |
and any mod that follows the guidelines should have "license: <something>" and not just "<something>" |
| 16:21 |
RealBadAngel |
luajit was tested not only by me and vanessa. also sapier and some other folks that posted in forums |
| 16:22 |
RealBadAngel |
also all players that play on vanessae server. because it runs luajit for weeks now |
| 16:22 |
sfan5 |
and now one of the regexes suddenly fail... :/ |
| 16:23 |
RealBadAngel |
only thing i found are escapechars. luajit is more restrictive than regular lua |
| 16:24 |
RealBadAngel |
thx to latest changes to ores and luajit combined game runs pretty nice there, almost 60fps all the time |
| 16:26 |
RealBadAngel |
set of mods is mesecons, technic, calinou's stuff, moretrees, technic ambience and lately joined slimes |
| 16:26 |
RealBadAngel |
and 128x texture pack ofc |
| 16:29 |
celeron55 |
by the way, does there exist a mapper tool for leveldb maps? |
| 16:29 |
celeron55 |
i think it shouldn't be the default before such does exist |
| 16:30 |
celeron55 |
leveldb is problematic because it's way less supported compared to sqlite3 |
| 16:30 |
celeron55 |
you can open sqlite databases in, like, anything |
| 16:30 |
celeron55 |
leveldb... more like nowhere |
| 16:40 |
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| 16:42 |
PilzAdam |
copper_lump (cooking) -> copper_ingot (+steel_ingot) -> bronze_ingot |
| 16:43 |
PilzAdam |
bronze_ingot can make tools, wich have same speed but more uses than steel tools |
| 16:43 |
PilzAdam |
and bronze blocks |
| 16:43 |
PilzAdam |
how rare should copper be? |
| 16:45 |
Jordach |
google it |
| 16:46 |
PilzAdam |
12^3 from -16 to -64 and 9^3 under it? |
| 16:46 |
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| 16:51 |
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| 16:52 |
PilzAdam |
https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commit/c82c74898ef3f352c0aea8d8d0e71e6f2136a8a7 |
| 16:54 |
Zeg9 |
PilzAdam, this looks great, more ores in default game |
| 16:56 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: sfan5-bot did its work |
| 17:00 |
celeron55 |
lol, the first page is full of random mods now |
| 17:01 |
celeron55 |
you botched up the message though |
| 17:01 |
celeron55 |
umm... actually no, it actually makes sense |
| 17:02 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, thought the same about the message |
| 17:03 |
celeron55 |
the bot seems quite random |
| 17:03 |
celeron55 |
for example, why does it think this has dependencies mentioned? http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=2262 |
| 17:08 |
Zeg9 |
sfan5, does it ask for dependencies in the repo (depends.txt) or in the forum post? |
| 17:08 |
sfan5 |
in the post |
| 17:09 |
sfan5 |
it checks the forum post, because it should conform the _forum_ guidelines |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=14697 |
| 17:11 |
PilzAdam |
lol, the download link! |
| 17:12 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: if "gpl" in post_html ... |
| 17:12 |
Zeg9 |
How often does the bot check for updates ? ;p |
| 17:13 |
sfan5 |
i run the script once a week or so |
| 17:13 |
Zeg9 |
okay |
| 17:13 |
sfan5 |
but the bot only posts when i want it to post |
| 17:15 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: rickrolled! |
| 17:15 |
* celeron55 |
wins |
| 17:15 |
sfan5 |
damn! i posted the PHPSESSID and forum_cookie_31d6ec on github again |
| 17:15 |
Jordach |
TROLOLOLOLOL |
| 17:15 |
* Jordach |
wins |
| 17:16 |
Jordach |
oops (thought this was #minetest) |
| 17:16 |
sfan5 |
but its no longer valid |
| 17:16 |
sfan5 |
shame on you, Jordach |
| 17:16 |
|
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| 17:19 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: i'll have to let you know that I also clicked on the download link in the mod releases guidelines |
| 17:19 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, you owe me tens of useless random blocks |
| 17:20 |
PilzAdam |
(the ones that are currently in MT do not count) |
| 17:23 |
PilzAdam |
Ill push the copper now |
| 17:45 |
|
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| 18:04 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 18:05 |
* VanessaE |
peeks in |
| 18:05 |
VanessaE |
ores: copper, tin, silver, gold, mithril. |
| 18:05 |
VanessaE |
bronze is made from copper + tin, not steel |
| 18:05 |
Jordach |
just add moreores and we can forget about this |
| 18:06 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, accoring to wikipedia bronze mainly consists of copper |
| 18:06 |
VanessaE |
luajit: I have indeed tested it quite thoroughly as have a number of others. I am one commit behind luajit's 2.0 git repo, and it is stable enough to add whenever you see fit to merge as seen fit. |
| 18:07 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: yes. copper + tin |
| 18:07 |
VanessaE |
"Bronze is an alloy consisting primarily of copper, usually with tin as the main additive." |
| 18:07 |
PilzAdam |
"usually", not always |
| 18:07 |
PilzAdam |
see my comment on GitHub |
| 18:07 |
VanessaE |
*grumble* |
| 18:07 |
VanessaE |
don't change it just to change it,. |
| 18:07 |
Zeg9 |
Why not make a poll ? |
| 18:07 |
VanessaE |
moreores already does copper+tin=bronze |
| 18:07 |
|
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| 18:08 |
VanessaE |
also, what comment? |
| 18:08 |
PilzAdam |
a comment on a comment on the commit |
| 18:08 |
VanessaE |
link? |
| 18:08 |
PilzAdam |
https://github.com/minetest/common/commit/c82c74898ef3f352c0aea8d8d0e71e6f2136a8a7#commitcomment-2900709 |
| 18:09 |
PilzAdam |
i dont want so many useless ores in the game |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
well |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
whether you want it or not, that is one of the standard 5 ores, and that is how bronze is supposed to be made |
| 18:10 |
PilzAdam |
what standard? |
| 18:10 |
VanessaE |
moreores of course. |
| 18:11 |
VanessaE |
plus, there's nothing in the wiki article saying that bronze can be made with steel. you're changing it just to be "different". |
| 18:11 |
PilzAdam |
no, I have done it like this because I dont want too many ores |
| 18:11 |
Exio |
add zinc |
| 18:11 |
Exio |
because tin is too mainstream |
| 18:11 |
VanessaE |
we need tin also damn it. |
| 18:11 |
PilzAdam |
for what? |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
well I use it in homedecor for starters, and any other material simply doesn't make any sense |
| 18:12 |
VanessaE |
just put the stuff in and let the modders figure out how to use it |
| 18:12 |
PilzAdam |
morores has it |
| 18:12 |
PilzAdam |
no, thats exactly what I dont want |
| 18:13 |
VanessaE |
why? |
| 18:13 |
VanessaE |
why must every damn object being added have to have a use right away? |
| 18:13 |
PilzAdam |
it should be a game and not a lot of resources for modders that doesnt make any sense |
| 18:14 |
VanessaE |
it doesn't make any sense to you because *you don't use it* |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
tin and mithril, eh |
| 18:14 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: mithril is our lapis lazuli. :) |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
those two are kind of iffy to begin with |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
yeah but we don't need a lapis lazuli |
| 18:14 |
VanessaE |
we don't need half the blocks we already have either |
| 18:14 |
PilzAdam |
I think we have enogh ores now |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
yeah same here |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
we have just as many as minecraft |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
any more is too ridiculous |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
tin.... like why tin? |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
that's sort of arbitrary |
| 18:15 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: originally because you use it to make bronze. |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
why not platinum or nickel or whatever |
| 18:15 |
VanessaE |
and bronze was used to for tools. |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
but you can make bronze with copper and steel |
| 18:15 |
VanessaE |
but that's a nonsensical alloy |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
minetest is nonsense to begin with |
| 18:15 |
VanessaE |
why would you waste steel to make a *weaker* material? |
| 18:16 |
hmmmm |
maybe it can have some use |
| 18:16 |
hmmmm |
doesn't need to have a use right away |
| 18:16 |
PilzAdam |
the alloy just makes it last longer |
| 18:16 |
Exio |
the tools have more uses and same time, iirc |
| 18:16 |
VanessaE |
didn't I say that 5 mins ago? |
| 18:16 |
VanessaE |
why does it have to be put to use immediately? |
| 18:16 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 18:16 |
hmmmm |
the greatest thing about minetest is that you can decide what ores you'd like in your game |
| 18:16 |
VanessaE |
true |
| 18:17 |
hmmmm |
these are some ores that _EVERYBODY_ agrees on |
| 18:17 |
hmmmm |
if you really wanted tin and mithril, you have other mods to add one |
| 18:17 |
hmmmm |
s/one/on/ |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
mmh |
| 18:17 |
hmmmm |
so what's not to like here? |
| 18:18 |
Calinou |
feel free to not add them |
| 18:18 |
* Calinou |
would rather see sapphires/rubies/emeralds |
| 18:18 |
Calinou |
not to make tools, but for other random things |
| 18:18 |
Calinou |
maybe armor :p |
| 18:18 |
hmmmm |
that was sort of the whole idea behind adding all ores to the base game.. |
| 18:18 |
hmmmm |
behind not adding all* |
| 18:18 |
PilzAdam |
Calinou, delete gold, copper and bronze from moreores, the aliases are already in minetest_game |
| 18:18 |
Calinou |
suddenly: 0.4.5 users |
| 18:19 |
Exio |
make a release of the actual moreores in a .zip |
| 18:19 |
Exio |
and then upgrade moreores-git |
| 18:19 |
Calinou |
some 0.4.5 users like to use my git repo |
| 18:20 |
Calinou |
and two repos is a gas factory |
| 18:20 |
Exio |
two repos? |
| 18:20 |
Exio |
who said that?" |
| 18:20 |
PilzAdam |
just create a dev branch and link that in the topic |
| 18:20 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: see? either all or nothing damn it. |
| 18:20 |
PilzAdam |
what should I see? |
| 18:20 |
Calinou |
:| |
| 18:20 |
VanessaE |
none of this half-ass crap |
| 18:21 |
hmmmm |
you view adding half of them as half-assed, but i view it as doing things the right way |
| 18:21 |
hmmmm |
half-assed would be adding all of them in without full judgement |
| 18:21 |
hmmmm |
this is the subset that everybody agrees on |
| 18:21 |
Exio |
i don't want a rainbow when i start mining really |
| 18:22 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, I dont want to add whole mods just because some parts of them are good for the game |
| 18:22 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: so don't add the whole mod - I'm talking about the ores here, not the tools et.al that go with it |
| 18:23 |
hmmmm |
we're talking about all the ores too |
| 18:23 |
PilzAdam |
I already have all ores in that I want |
| 18:23 |
VanessaE |
that YOU want |
| 18:23 |
Exio |
god, VanessaE, if you want tin |
| 18:23 |
VanessaE |
note that key word here. |
| 18:23 |
Exio |
you use moreores |
| 18:23 |
Exio |
if not, you don't |
| 18:23 |
Exio |
you already use it, don't you? |
| 18:23 |
VanessaE |
Exio: I already do that's my point. |
| 18:24 |
* VanessaE |
inserts the missing comma. |
| 18:24 |
VanessaE |
the point of porting external mods to the core game is to give players more options and eliminate the need for the external mod. |
| 18:25 |
celeron55 |
the mod developers are those who have to be flexible |
| 18:25 |
celeron55 |
if the core developers need to be flexible, it takes time from actual development |
| 18:25 |
celeron55 |
it isn't desired in the long run |
| 18:25 |
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| 18:27 |
celeron55 |
i can imagine this getting really bad if limits are not set somewhere, up to the point of nobody wanting to be a core dev |
| 18:29 |
celeron55 |
on the other hand, it's bad too if mod developers cannot predict at all what core will do |
| 18:30 |
celeron55 |
but i think this here is quite predictable |
| 18:30 |
celeron55 |
like, with common sense 8) |
| 18:33 |
hmmmm |
...except common isn't part of the core |
| 18:33 |
celeron55 |
it's part of the core in practice |
| 18:34 |
celeron55 |
should've probably used the word "upstream" though i guess |
| 18:35 |
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| 18:36 |
* VanessaE |
grumbles about the apparent lack of consensus on what 'common sense' means. |
| 18:37 |
hmmmm |
the subset formed by taking the intersection of all relevant peoples' sense |
| 18:37 |
VanessaE |
now how do you define "relevant" in this context? |
| 18:37 |
hmmmm |
directly involved with minetest development |
| 18:37 |
VanessaE |
seems to me that boils down to exactly three people - you, c55, and pilz. |
| 18:38 |
PilzAdam |
*Adam |
| 18:38 |
hmmmm |
you too... |
| 18:38 |
hmmmm |
any Core Developer or Active Contributor |
| 18:38 |
hmmmm |
btw, did celeron ever get a minetest.net email address? |
| 18:41 |
PilzAdam |
RBA should be added to "Core Developers" in the credits tab |
| 18:41 |
hmmmm |
yeah, i didn't get around to that. |
| 18:41 |
hmmmm |
proller too. core developer == someone with commit access |
| 18:42 |
PilzAdam |
oh, yea right |
| 18:42 |
hmmmm |
lol |
| 18:43 |
hmmmm |
if minetest becomes really big and popular, i think we should take the developer list that's in the core and use it to draw a cape on characters with our usernames |
| 18:43 |
hmmmm |
a la Minecraft |
| 18:43 |
hmmmm |
...and WoW for that matter |
| 18:54 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: i don't really care at all for getting one |
| 18:54 |
celeron55 |
actually i don't even want one :P |
| 18:54 |
hmmmm |
oh dear.. the @gmail.com sticks out on the credits tab |
| 18:55 |
celeron55 |
why should i care? |
| 18:55 |
hmmmm |
the minetest email is a good way to look professional and have some place to route all the github emails |
| 18:56 |
celeron55 |
github emails? what are those |
| 18:56 |
hmmmm |
github is a constant flood of email if you haven't configured it.... and it still is after you configured it |
| 18:56 |
celeron55 |
i get absolutely none |
| 18:56 |
celeron55 |
ah oh well, there's something it seem |
| 18:56 |
celeron55 |
+s |
| 18:57 |
celeron55 |
but why would i want a @minetest.net for that |
| 18:57 |
hmmmm |
by default it sends you an email anytime someone comments on an issue or pull request or anything like that |
| 18:57 |
hmmmm |
keeps everything neat and orderly |
| 18:57 |
celeron55 |
github isn't a minetest-only thing for me; github accounts are personal |
| 18:57 |
|
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| 18:57 |
celeron55 |
github actually disallows making separate accounts for separate projects |
| 18:57 |
celeron55 |
in case you haven't read the rules |
| 18:57 |
hmmmm |
i haven't |
| 18:58 |
hmmmm |
i wouldn't do that anyway |
| 18:58 |
celeron55 |
but yeah, i have long time ago already disabled most e-mail from github and stopped reading the notifications |
| 18:58 |
celeron55 |
there are simply too many to read while trying to keep sane at the same time |
| 18:59 |
hmmmm |
i'm really curious to know how many people there are who actually want email notifications and all that nonsense |
| 18:59 |
celeron55 |
let me guess... none? |
| 18:59 |
celeron55 |
8) |
| 18:59 |
hmmmm |
if they had them disabled by default, how many people would enable them |
| 18:59 |
hmmmm |
yeah, basically. |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
hmm, 490 unread notifications |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
would've guessed there are more; maybe they don't list old ones |
| 19:00 |
Exio |
what emails? |
| 19:00 |
Exio |
:P |
| 19:03 |
celeron55 |
but anyway basically, if i had a minetest e-mail it would be something i would never read |
| 19:04 |
celeron55 |
however nice that and professionalism would be, i don't really want that |
| 19:09 |
Jordach |
HOLD ON. |
| 19:09 |
Jordach |
I have the notifications for all github.com/minetest repos |
| 19:09 |
Jordach |
as email |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
oh god these launchpad deb things |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
i think i am able to update these now but this isn't going to look pretty by any debian maintainer |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
8D |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
why do they have all this crap in here |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
they should update these themselves and not leave that to me |
| 19:25 |
rubenwardy |
Jordach: you must be watching it |
| 19:41 |
celeron55 |
first try: botched |
| 19:42 |
celeron55 |
it's lovely to try to make correct debian packages when you're not running debian |
| 19:45 |
Jordach |
thats true |
| 19:46 |
VanessaE |
checkinstall. |
| 19:46 |
celeron55 |
eh what? that's a debian-only thing |
| 19:46 |
celeron55 |
and not useful at all |
| 19:47 |
VanessaE |
um |
| 19:47 |
VanessaE |
it makes other package formats |
| 19:47 |
VanessaE |
and I'm pretty sure it runs on other distros too |
| 19:47 |
celeron55 |
well, it makes rpms too; but it is not useful for distributed packages |
| 19:47 |
VanessaE |
it also makes slackware packages |
| 19:48 |
celeron55 |
and i am dealing with launchpad here, you should probably read up on it before saying anything to not sound so much like a number of very negative things |
| 19:49 |
celeron55 |
oh lovely, we now have stable ubuntu packages |
| 19:52 |
celeron55 |
and they now have freetype and curl |
| 19:52 |
celeron55 |
(hopefully) |
| 20:06 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, are the new damage_groups int only? |
| 20:13 |
|
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| 20:15 |
|
sapier joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:19 |
sapier |
hello anyone online interested in the scriptapi cleanup branch? I'm still looking for comments prior issuing a pull request ;-) |
| 20:20 |
sapier |
https://github.com/sapier/minetest/commits/scriptapi_separation |
| 20:20 |
sapier |
I wan't to avoid having files renamed on merge leaving reinclude protections wron as happened last time ;-) |
| 20:25 |
|
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| 20:41 |
|
troller joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:41 |
hmmmm |
this is a really humungous change |
| 20:41 |
PilzAdam |
https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commits/damage_system I have the new damage system done |
| 20:42 |
PilzAdam |
but I need help for reading the damage_groups from Lua |
| 20:42 |
sapier |
no problem what exactly do you need? |
| 20:42 |
PilzAdam |
http://dev.minetest.net/Damage_system |
| 20:43 |
PilzAdam |
read the damage_group table into the tool caps |
| 20:43 |
hmmmm |
first of all, there's a whole bunch of modapi files |
| 20:43 |
hmmmm |
in addition to scriptapi files |
| 20:43 |
hmmmm |
what's with all of that |
| 20:43 |
hmmmm |
there's so much more added, and for what actual benefit? |
| 20:44 |
sapier |
it's not really much code it's more files to split parts that are needed within core from those only relevant to lua |
| 20:44 |
sapier |
benefit is that lua is completely separated no more interfering with core development |
| 20:44 |
hmmmm |
which are the parts relevant to lua? |
| 20:45 |
hmmmm |
scriptapi or modapi? |
| 20:45 |
sapier |
modapi* is loa |
| 20:45 |
sapier |
scriptapi is internal interface |
| 20:45 |
hmmmm |
but i see lots of lua_* in scriptapi |
| 20:45 |
sapier |
the names may not be perfect |
| 20:45 |
hmmmm |
this is a lot of change for i'm not even sure of how much benefit |
| 20:46 |
hmmmm |
the scriptapi stuff really wasn't broken in the first place |
| 20:46 |
sapier |
its mainly a design cleanup that never adds additional functions |
| 20:46 |
sapier |
it was broken by design not by function |
| 20:46 |
sapier |
env reference for example |
| 20:46 |
hmmmm |
but this is a fundamental design change being done so late |
| 20:47 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: btw you forgot legacy nodenames for diamonds. |
| 20:47 |
sapier |
luaapi design was changed while developing without having a clear pattern thats why it got that creepy |
| 20:47 |
hmmmm |
what was the change in luaapi design? |
| 20:48 |
sapier |
there where two classes of global functions for example |
| 20:48 |
sapier |
minetest.X and minetest.env.X |
| 20:48 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, for wich mod? |
| 20:48 |
hmmmm |
well things that call env obviously have to do with the environment |
| 20:48 |
VanessaE |
http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=2724 |
| 20:48 |
VanessaE |
that one |
| 20:49 |
sapier |
of course but env is part of server |
| 20:49 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, what are the item names of that mod? |
| 20:49 |
sapier |
and server is saved within lua stack to |
| 20:49 |
VanessaE |
lemme check |
| 20:49 |
sapier |
so no need to have it saved redundantly |
| 20:49 |
hmmmm |
so this all comes back to you wanting to detach it from server |
| 20:49 |
hmmmm |
now what is the advantage of detaching it from server, again? |
| 20:50 |
sapier |
having lua separated from server will make locking and multithreading much more easy than if you don't see where it's used |
| 20:50 |
hmmmm |
if you don't see where the locking is used, you mean? |
| 20:50 |
VanessaE |
ore is diamonds:diamond_in_ground, the others are diamonds:block (obvious), diamonds:diamond (the crystal), diamonds:ingot, diamonds:sword, diamonds:axe, diamonds:shovel, diamonds:pick |
| 20:50 |
sapier |
no if you don't see what ways lua is called |
| 20:51 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: yes, i was thinking the groups should be ints |
| 20:51 |
VanessaE |
(the ingot...I dunno, maybe alias that back to default:diamond or something) |
| 20:51 |
hmmmm |
so now where is lua attached to? |
| 20:51 |
hmmmm |
if not the server |
| 20:51 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, ok, will change my code |
| 20:52 |
sapier |
scriptapi class is part of server |
| 20:52 |
hmmmm |
and scriptapi calls modapi? |
| 20:52 |
hmmmm |
or something? |
| 20:52 |
sapier |
and any scriptapi class contains (at least one) lua stack |
| 20:52 |
sapier |
not exactly |
| 20:52 |
hmmmm |
or is it that modapi is a detached version of scriptapi? |
| 20:53 |
hmmmm |
and essentially it's redundant code |
| 20:53 |
sapier |
if you want to do something from c++ you'll enter scriptapi module by functions defined in scriptapi* headers |
| 20:53 |
sapier |
if you're calling a c++ function from within lua you enter by modapi defined functions |
| 20:53 |
sapier |
no there aren't any duplicates |
| 20:53 |
hmmmm |
i'm sorry if i'm making you repeat yourself, it's just that it's hard to grasp exactly what's going on here and why |
| 20:54 |
sapier |
no problem I'm trying to explain as good as possible |
| 20:54 |
hmmmm |
so then how do people adding functions know where to put their new api? |
| 20:54 |
sapier |
adding new functions to be called from lua is within modapi stuff |
| 20:55 |
hmmmm |
so basically modapi is l_blah_blah(), and scriptapi is scriptapi_blah_blah() |
| 20:55 |
hmmmm |
all the things that were prefixed with l_ is now a part of modapi and so on with scriptapi |
| 20:55 |
hmmmm |
correct? |
| 20:55 |
sapier |
a little bit simplified but close yes |
| 20:56 |
hmmmm |
and also doesn't this change the way mods reference env functions? |
| 20:56 |
hmmmm |
instead of minetest.env:blah() they'd do minetest.env.blah() ? |
| 20:56 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: what needs to be added still to make it work, in addition to lua stuff, is network serialization of the additional things in the tool definition |
| 20:56 |
sapier |
thats intended to happen in future, currently minetest.env:function is supported by compatibility code |
| 20:57 |
hmmmm |
okay, so it's compatible at least |
| 20:57 |
hmmmm |
i really have to think about this and so does everybody else working on minetest |
| 20:57 |
hmmmm |
this is a major, fundamental change that should not be done this late in the project |
| 20:57 |
|
sapier1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:57 |
sapier1 |
I had a discussion with celeron some days ago where he asked why even use minetest.env prefix for those functions ... I don't see a reason for this |
| 20:58 |
sapier1 |
so I added all minetest.env functions directly to minetest |
| 20:58 |
celeron55 |
^ yes this is approved |
| 20:58 |
celeron55 |
(as long as compatibility is preserved) |
| 20:59 |
hmmmm |
and no bugs |
| 20:59 |
hmmmm |
the last time we did a major change there were 3 hard to track bugs |
| 20:59 |
sapier1 |
I've added compatibility code, mobf runs fine |
| 20:59 |
hmmmm |
(*cough* irrlicht -> stl) |
| 20:59 |
hmmmm |
but this change is even bigger |
| 20:59 |
celeron55 |
i will leave it for hmmmm to handle when this would be merged (if possible) |
| 20:59 |
hmmmm |
hrmm |
| 20:59 |
sapier1 |
this change isn't even close to be so invasive I didn't change the underlying functions |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
okay |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
help me out here |
| 21:00 |
sapier1 |
but of course it needs testing |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
there are enough modapi and scriptapi functions to be put into a separate folder... not "it would be nice to", but "it really needs to be put into separate folders" |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
but the problem is |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
the subdirectories are basically being used for third-party included libraries |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
how do we make the distinction |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
also i noticed you have scriptapi_backup |
| 21:01 |
celeron55 |
well, maybe put them all under src/3rdparty/ |
| 21:02 |
hmmmm |
how about something like ext_libs |
| 21:02 |
sapier1 |
thats a problem ... theres another reason why a folder would be good, there are some headers that shouldn't be used from within core code but only within scriptapi ... currently those are at most marked by comments |
| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
i think 3rdparty is a better name |
| 21:02 |
hmmmm |
visibility shouldn't be a concern, i feel like we're all competent coders here |
| 21:03 |
celeron55 |
it's obvious they're libraries anyway, and "ext" is quite ambiguous |
| 21:03 |
hmmmm |
ext, external to the project |
| 21:03 |
celeron55 |
they're not external because they're included in there, but they're still 3rd party 8) |
| 21:03 |
hmmmm |
mmmm.... |
| 21:04 |
hmmmm |
also another big thing, your class names aren't PascalCase like we settled on |
| 21:04 |
sapier1 |
they'd be somehow ext if they were parallel to src ... :-) |
| 21:04 |
hmmmm |
lower_case_unix_style is reserved for functions that aren't a part of any namespace or class |
| 21:04 |
hmmmm |
the exception being treegen.cpp, which needs a much larger cleanup |
| 21:05 |
sapier1 |
ok I'll rename them if you tell me how they should be |
| 21:05 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: where's that defined anyway? |
| 21:05 |
celeron55 |
i don't see it under the core category in the wiki |
| 21:05 |
hmmmm |
code style guidelines |
| 21:05 |
hmmmm |
? |
| 21:05 |
hmmmm |
http://dev.minetest.net/Code_style_guidelines |
| 21:05 |
hmmmm |
the guidelines i came up with that are the most sane but you don't agree with for some reason |
| 21:06 |
hmmmm |
and by the way, your previous style is definitely NOT linux kernel style |
| 21:06 |
sapier1 |
I can't do method names in camelCase |
| 21:06 |
hmmmm |
too much to change? |
| 21:06 |
sapier1 |
this would result in moding api being camelCase |
| 21:06 |
hmmmm |
yeah... |
| 21:06 |
hmmmm |
that we'd need to make an exception for |
| 21:07 |
celeron55 |
made it appear here: http://dev.minetest.net/Category:Core |
| 21:07 |
hmmmm |
i don't know how to do that. |
| 21:07 |
hmmmm |
and it is there already |
| 21:07 |
sapier1 |
I'll rename those methods not being directly mapped to api to camelCase |
| 21:08 |
hmmmm |
alright, sounds good |
| 21:08 |
sapier1 |
there's still one open point g_settings ... it's a global variable ... I don't like globals ;-) |
| 21:09 |
hmmmm |
don't even think about it |
| 21:09 |
sapier1 |
any reason I don't know about? |
| 21:09 |
hmmmm |
and i don't like hungarian notation either.... but you don't see me running around changing it |
| 21:09 |
hmmmm |
g_settings should remain global for everybody's sanity |
| 21:10 |
hmmmm |
changing that is overcomplication with ___LITERALLY______ NO BENEFIT |
| 21:10 |
sapier1 |
I don't like it for good reason, globals are common cases of unpredictable side effects when doing multithreading |
| 21:10 |
hmmmm |
i am already sort of against this huge change because it doesn't bring much actual benefit |
| 21:10 |
hmmmm |
and it's locked |
| 21:10 |
hmmmm |
if you read |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
g_settings can be global |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
everybody expects it to be global |
| 21:11 |
celeron55 |
just like logging |
| 21:11 |
hmmmm |
celeron, you never answered me that time about the profilers |
| 21:11 |
sapier1 |
ok no problem I just wanted to mention it because it's a inconsistency to the direction my changes are aimed to |
| 21:11 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: i have a vague memory of something but maybe you need to ask it again? 8) |
| 21:12 |
hmmmm |
mmm yes... |
| 21:12 |
hmmmm |
HOW THE HELL do they work even |
| 21:12 |
celeron55 |
lol |
| 21:12 |
hmmmm |
something's supposed to be a count, like number of object in environment, and it's a floating point number? |
| 21:12 |
hmmmm |
and it doesn't seem in the least bit accurate |
| 21:13 |
hmmmm |
maybe it worked for you in the past, but i wanted to add some things to the profiler, and i just can't figure it out |
| 21:14 |
hmmmm |
like what on earth is SPT_ADD and what is SPT_AVG, what's the difference between the two |
| 21:14 |
celeron55 |
the basic function of is to accumulate stuff and give it out for printing, and then it's supposed to be cleared |
| 21:14 |
celeron55 |
it can accumulate stuff in two ways |
| 21:15 |
celeron55 |
either simply add stuff and produce a sum at the end, or average stuff and produce the average of the inputted values at the end |
| 21:15 |
celeron55 |
then there's the graph drawing thing that's kind of simple |
| 21:16 |
hmmmm |
so how does the number of object in the environment become 1.5? |
| 21:16 |
celeron55 |
then there is the ScopeProfiler which allows profiling timing of block scopes like TimeTaker works; it will either produce an average (SPT_AVG) or the accumulated time (SPT_ADD) to the profiler output |
| 21:16 |
celeron55 |
it's the average for all sample points taken |
| 21:17 |
hmmmm |
i've got to wonder if it's even accurate though |
| 21:17 |
hmmmm |
what's with the uptime thing, it seems stuck at 5 |
| 21:18 |
celeron55 |
"Elapsed time" is just the accumulated time in a profiler period |
| 21:18 |
hmmmm |
i see |
| 21:18 |
celeron55 |
you can compare the other summed times to it |
| 21:18 |
celeron55 |
i find it odd that you haven't figured it out; it isn't that complicated 8) |
| 21:19 |
hmmmm |
it looks incomprehensible |
| 21:19 |
celeron55 |
all the times in the final output are seconds, and the rest are some kind of units |
| 21:19 |
hmmmm |
like there's the magic constant -2 floating around |
| 21:21 |
celeron55 |
i agree that the implementation might be a bit of wonky; the internal data of it isn't predefined and it needs to deal with whatever is put into it at runtime :P |
| 21:22 |
celeron55 |
the magic constants are there just as markers of whether a value has requested the averaging function or not |
| 21:23 |
hmmmm |
don't you think that should've been a constant like PROFILER_REQUESTED_AVG? |
| 21:24 |
celeron55 |
well, maybe 8) |
| 21:24 |
hmmmm |
comments aren't needed if code is self-documenting by being explanitory with variable names and what not... here, it lacks both comments and variable/function names are terse, leaving someone who looks at it that didn't create it confused |
| 21:25 |
hmmmm |
i just find it interesting, because for some pieces of code you have a lot of comments, even unnecessary comments, and here there's basically nothing |
| 21:26 |
celeron55 |
"mark add used as -2" is ridiculously incomprehensible |
| 21:26 |
celeron55 |
8D |
| 21:27 |
celeron55 |
i don't even understand what that means |
| 21:27 |
celeron55 |
ah, now i do |
| 21:27 |
hmmmm |
but you have -1 and then -2 |
| 21:27 |
celeron55 |
it means marking the action of act having been used as the constant -2 |
| 21:27 |
sapier1 |
"comments aren't needed if code is self-documenting" ..... |
| 21:27 |
hmmmm |
now -1 has something to do with it? |
| 21:28 |
hmmmm |
for something as trivial as a profiler, i would expect it to just work accurately and be easy to understand |
| 21:28 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, serialization done: https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/9cd0312bf5a93017aa298bc2218f2df9f4e48716 |
| 21:28 |
hmmmm |
i don't have the energy to actually go through the profiler just because i wanted to use it |
| 21:29 |
celeron55 |
i don't think i understand the -1 there |
| 21:30 |
hmmmm |
[05:27 PM] <sapier1> "comments aren't needed if code is self-documenting" ..... <-- whoops, i meant to say self-explanitory |
| 21:31 |
hmmmm |
well, self-documenting code is valid too |
| 21:31 |
hmmmm |
i know it sounded like an oxymoron |
| 21:31 |
sapier1 |
only code below some level of complexity can be self documenting imho |
| 21:31 |
hmmmm |
a profiler, come on |
| 21:31 |
hmmmm |
this isn't rocket science |
| 21:31 |
sapier1 |
you did a general statement ;-) |
| 21:31 |
Exio |
i think like 95% of the code can be "self explanatory" (or whatever it is spelled) |
| 21:32 |
celeron55 |
the -1 there just obfuscates the fact that it is in fact using only a single magic constant defining it doesn't use averaging |
| 21:32 |
celeron55 |
-1 isn't used for anything |
| 21:32 |
sapier1 |
you don't need to comment i++ ... but most time it's helpfull to comment what a loop is intended to do ;-) |
| 21:34 |
sapier1 |
I've got a good example for code that needs a comment in the scriptapi changes have a look at modapi_internal.h define REGISTER_LUA_REF |
| 21:34 |
sapier1 |
it's very simple but you need additional information to understand |
| 21:35 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, here is a actually working version: https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/105ed8c0141ba67c404067be6001da70ebb32140 |
| 21:36 |
PilzAdam |
now only the Lua part is missing |
| 21:36 |
sapier1 |
I'm adding it to my changes |
| 21:37 |
sapier1 |
I've alread touched everything so it's a minor additional change |
| 21:38 |
VanessaE |
what's the story on adding silver? |
| 21:38 |
VanessaE |
is that gonna be a go or no-go? |
| 21:38 |
PilzAdam |
not yet |
| 21:39 |
PilzAdam |
s/yet/now |
| 21:39 |
VanessaE |
gonna be (vt.) 1. "will it be done in the future" |
| 21:39 |
hmmmm |
just a side note, minecraft doesn't have silver |
| 21:40 |
hmmmm |
so it's not like we're playing ketchup there |
| 21:40 |
VanessaE |
oops, that shoulda been (vi.) |
| 21:40 |
Exio |
mc doesn't have copper either :P |
| 21:41 |
hmmmm |
anyway now that i actually read the profiler code, i understand it, but i don't understand how it's possible for an SPT_ADD value to print out 1.5 |
| 21:42 |
hmmmm |
so here's what i would do: |
| 21:42 |
sapier |
grr ... eclipse refactoring support is buggy |
| 21:42 |
hmmmm |
make a block comment at the top explaining what SPT_ADD and SPT_AVG and so on do, remove the whole -1 nonsense, make -2 into a define |
| 21:42 |
hmmmm |
ahh, caught ya |
| 21:43 |
hmmmm |
you use eclipse, that explains why you're so anal about organization |
| 21:43 |
sapier |
yes ... eclips with 100 files in one folder is a pain |
| 21:43 |
hmmmm |
didn't realize you were that masochistic |
| 21:44 |
sapier |
It's bad but I don't know of any better solution |
| 21:44 |
hmmmm |
i had to use eclipse for GWT development for a school project, it made me want to kill myself |
| 21:44 |
celeron55 |
import net.minetest.core.server.scriptapi.environment.lua; |
| 21:45 |
hmmmm |
if sapier had his way, that's what it would be like ^ |
| 21:45 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: I asked if it will be done in future because I'm about to add tin and mithril to gloopblocks, and if necessary silver also. |
| 21:45 |
hmmmm |
he wanted to separate client, server, and common into separate folders |
| 21:45 |
sapier |
not exactly I hate java ;-) |
| 21:45 |
celeron55 |
github repos hosting java code always give good laughs |
| 21:45 |
sapier |
most likely because of eclipse being so slow |
| 21:46 |
hmmmm |
ManualMapVoxelManipulatorEnterpriseAbstractFactory |
| 21:46 |
celeron55 |
they literally have directories starting from the TLD of that hierarchy |
| 21:47 |
sapier |
I think the principles below javas organisation are good ... but java is best example you can do every good concept to an extent where it turns to be worse |
| 21:56 |
VanessaE |
ManualMapVoxelManipulatorEnterpriseAbstractFactory <- that name isn't long enough. |
| 21:56 |
VanessaE |
need to add another 40-50 chars. |
| 21:56 |
sapier |
what does "Enterprise" mean? |
| 21:56 |
hmmmm |
http://www.classnamer.com/ |
| 21:57 |
hmmmm |
just some java bullshit |
| 21:57 |
hmmmm |
http://projects.haykranen.nl/java/ |
| 22:05 |
sapier |
are there any objections against macros in c++ code? |
| 22:06 |
hmmmm |
as long as they're not crazy |
| 22:06 |
sapier |
plz define crazy :) |
| 22:06 |
hmmmm |
Xorg |
| 22:07 |
sapier |
don't know xorg code ... maybe similar to strongswan code? within strongswan full object orientation (private/public/constructors/destructors ...) was rebuilt with macros ... but it's pure c |
| 22:07 |
hmmmm |
that is ridiculous |
| 22:08 |
sapier |
no I'm using macros atm to avoid writing same 2-5 lines over and over again |
| 22:08 |
hmmmm |
i would never go as far as using macros to make C object oriented |
| 22:08 |
hmmmm |
i mean.... that.... is literally C++ |
| 22:08 |
sapier |
me too but obviously the strongswan guys did it |
| 22:09 |
hmmmm |
the OpenBSD implementation is better |
| 22:09 |
sapier |
an I know of at least a second project where some ppl rebuilt at least try/catch with macros |
| 22:09 |
hmmmm |
oh, VPN |
| 22:10 |
sapier |
you mean isakmpd? those guys didn't manage to merge a simple patch making it compatible to rfc for almost 3 years by now ;-) |
| 22:10 |
Kray |
jfklösadf |
| 22:10 |
hmmmm |
i was referring to their IPSec code |
| 22:10 |
Kray |
oops |
| 22:11 |
hmmmm |
openbsd's ipsec code is the reference implementation, i think |
| 22:11 |
hmmmm |
so it must be good |
| 22:11 |
sapier |
maybe it was once reference but they didn't keep up to later ipsec definitions |
| 22:12 |
troller |
$#ck! now first running register_ore from lua, and then loadMapMeta and i cant easily make setting for springs in map meta 8( |
| 22:13 |
hmmmm |
ooh.. |
| 22:13 |
hmmmm |
about that, troller |
| 22:13 |
hmmmm |
you need to add it in init.lua or in mapgen.lua |
| 22:14 |
hmmmm |
register it if minetest.setting_getbool() |
| 22:14 |
sapier |
by the way someone once told hiding functions within local functions is a working security feature ... as soon as debug lib is loaded this isn't worth anything |
| 22:14 |
hmmmm |
the map meta thing, that's very difficult to accomplish because of the order in which the environment is created |
| 22:14 |
troller |
hmmmm, its works, but i trying use setting saved in meta |
| 22:15 |
hmmmm |
yeah that's basically impossible the way it's done now |
| 22:15 |
hmmmm |
we'd have to change the order in which things are done |
| 22:19 |
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Jordach joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:19 |
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Jordach joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:25 |
PilzAdam |
I think I got the Lua side now: https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/d2f9a5a25a1360583803bf9bd7402ba8743488aa |
| 22:27 |
sapier |
lol I was just wondering what is missing when looking at last commit :-) |
| 22:28 |
sapier |
how often is this function called? |
| 22:29 |
PilzAdam |
what function? |
| 22:29 |
sapier |
read_tool_capabilities |
| 22:30 |
PilzAdam |
ehm, dunno |
| 22:30 |
sapier |
I was wondering if it'd be worth moving all tool data to core on registration |
| 22:31 |
sapier |
but it's only called on punch so most likely this wouldn't have any noticable impact on performance |
| 22:34 |
troller |
https://github.com/proller/minetest/commit/a05fffe311a3e3aede8f4e0f2e80e0a5962a6ba7 - underground springs, try to access from lua to map meta |
| 22:35 |
hmmmm |
erm |
| 22:35 |
hmmmm |
i assume the param2 is there for testing purposes? |
| 22:35 |
troller |
no, for infinity springs |
| 22:35 |
hmmmm |
ahh |
| 22:35 |
hmmmm |
forgot about that |
| 22:38 |
troller |
commit it? |
| 22:38 |
hmmmm |
hmm |
| 22:38 |
hmmmm |
no |
| 22:38 |
hmmmm |
we need to figure out a better way to handle param2 like that |
| 22:39 |
hmmmm |
also what's the used_settings about? |
| 22:40 |
hmmmm |
not to mention that map_setting_get won't even work before env is created |
| 22:40 |
hmmmm |
but emergemanager is created along with env |
| 22:40 |
troller |
before creating it will point to g_settings |
| 22:41 |
hmmmm |
yeah, but we don't know if g_settings will be used |
| 22:42 |
troller |
now its not usable for init purposes |
| 22:42 |
hmmmm |
this is a problem that hasn't yet been solved |
| 22:42 |
sapier |
maybe we should make g_settings a smart pointer? |
| 22:42 |
hmmmm |
sapier, maybe not |
| 22:43 |
sapier |
don't let me die stupid tell me what's that bad about that suggestion? |
| 22:43 |
hmmmm |
well you need to make the case for using a smart pointer |
| 22:44 |
sapier |
everyone needs settings but it seems to me noone can be sure it's already present |
| 22:44 |
hmmmm |
troller, i need to work out a couple (a lot) of details with your commit before it gets merged |
| 22:44 |
hmmmm |
sapier, we know it's already present because it's created in main() |
| 22:45 |
sapier |
ok ok |
| 22:45 |
sapier |
btw then it's not present in prototype constructors :-) |
| 22:46 |
hmmmm |
prototype constructors? |
| 22:46 |
hmmmm |
oh, you mean globals? |
| 22:46 |
hmmmm |
yeah, that hasn't caused any problems though. there aren't many of those around |
| 22:47 |
troller |
hmmmm, ok, later. i tried to make simpler and faster |
| 22:47 |
sapier |
e.g. I use this to separate scriptapi from actual implementation of mods, scriptapi has a static list of api elements that need to be added on creation of actual scriptapi interface |
| 22:48 |
sapier |
so you don't need to add all headers to interface just to get lua stack initialized correctly |
| 23:01 |
hmmmm |
sapier, that's nice and all, but what's wrong with calling some explicit initialize function in main() for scriptapi? |
| 23:02 |
hmmmm |
after g_settings is set up |
| 23:02 |
hmmmm |
let's try to avoid things like smart pointers |
| 23:02 |
hmmmm |
the more like C it is, the better |
| 23:02 |
sapier |
what should this Initialize function be good? |
| 23:03 |
sapier |
the object is already created we do have all information for initialization at this point (except environment) |
| 23:03 |
sapier |
wich is initialized as soon as server tells scriptapi |
| 23:04 |
sapier |
server only needs to know there is a scriptapi and what functions need to be called to do something there not how it's done in there |
| 23:05 |
PilzAdam |
the damage system is done: https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commits/damage_system |
| 23:05 |
PilzAdam |
^ celeron55 |
| 23:05 |
sapier |
hiding implementation details to upper layers is good practice |
| 23:07 |
Jordach |
i just found this: https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/c521bb7c3df8a3fb576d2a1367d42064a45fc452#L9R53 why is it here |
| 23:08 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam: you should merge all moreores or not merge them at all. now you have created situation when mods will require both moreores and common. or will have to create own missing ores |
| 23:08 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, we had this discussion before, read logs |
| 23:08 |
RealBadAngel |
any solution lead to massive mess, lotsa aliases or double ores generation |
| 23:09 |
RealBadAngel |
i saw it "useseless ores" |
| 23:09 |
RealBadAngel |
thx |
| 23:09 |
sapier |
or moreores just removing common ores once they are really common |
| 23:09 |
RealBadAngel |
i need to rewrite whole technic thx to use of useless ores |
| 23:09 |
sapier |
why? |
| 23:09 |
RealBadAngel |
silver, tin, mithril |
| 23:10 |
sapier |
no why do you need to rewrite it? |
| 23:10 |
RealBadAngel |
because if i will require moreores now i will cause double ores generation |
| 23:11 |
RealBadAngel |
and duplicate ores |
| 23:11 |
sapier |
but only as long as moreores hasn't removed the now "common" ores? |
| 23:11 |
Jordach |
mining games need ores, not a lack of them |
| 23:12 |
Jordach |
they dont have to be terribly real, just something that can add a ton of fun into the game |
| 23:12 |
sapier |
i still don't understand the problem |
| 23:12 |
RealBadAngel |
you wanna strip moreores, leavin just a few ores in it |
| 23:12 |
sapier |
yes thats what I suggested |
| 23:12 |
RealBadAngel |
and force calinou to still call it moreores? |
| 23:12 |
sapier |
it's still more ores than common ;-) |
| 23:12 |
RealBadAngel |
moreores is standard |
| 23:13 |
RealBadAngel |
long time one |
| 23:13 |
RealBadAngel |
as i said, take it all or DO NOT TOUCH IT. |
| 23:13 |
RealBadAngel |
because now, PIlzaAdam, you have screwed it badly |
| 23:14 |
sapier |
imho moreores did generate too much ores but thats a personal preference |
| 23:14 |
RealBadAngel |
its about mining |
| 23:15 |
sapier |
i think there's no right or wrong in this case |
| 23:15 |
PilzAdam |
just adding billions of ores in without any uses for them is boring |
| 23:15 |
RealBadAngel |
WITHOUT???? |
| 23:15 |
RealBadAngel |
all technic is built on those ores |
| 23:16 |
sapier |
but technic isn't part of common .. is it? |
| 23:16 |
RealBadAngel |
every single ore has multiple purposes |
| 23:16 |
PilzAdam |
yes, but we are talking about the default game |
| 23:16 |
rarkenin |
It could be. |
| 23:17 |
RealBadAngel |
so screw me, force me to rewrite oregens, and add zilions of aliases |
| 23:17 |
RealBadAngel |
because you dont like silver and tin |
| 23:18 |
hmmmm |
sapier, like you said, the settings |
| 23:18 |
hmmmm |
because from what i understand, that's the reason why you want to use a smart pointer for g_settings |
| 23:19 |
hmmmm |
but i don't want to start using smart pointers and crap like that |
| 23:19 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, you have taken the mod that used to be standard in minetest modding |
| 23:19 |
hmmmm |
the constructs minetest uses should be common and simple |
| 23:19 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, you and VanessaE are always talking about "standard" mods |
| 23:20 |
RealBadAngel |
you have taken just some parts of it that you liked. those you didnt you threw away |
| 23:20 |
sapier |
no i don't need a smart pointer for settings it's been just a suggestion to solve prollers problem |
| 23:20 |
hmmmm |
like i keep seeing people want to "use a smart pointer here" or 'use a singleton there" and all these other things |
| 23:20 |
sapier |
I'm fine with it |
| 23:20 |
RealBadAngel |
but you havent asked MODDERS what they do think about it |
| 23:20 |
hmmmm |
oh.. proller's problem? |
| 23:20 |
hmmmm |
no, you misunderstand |
| 23:20 |
hmmmm |
that's completely different |
| 23:20 |
sapier |
possibly I'm sometimes a little bit too fast :) |
| 23:20 |
RealBadAngel |
and havent thought that your likeing will cause fuckup of many mods. |
| 23:21 |
hmmmm |
he wants to read settings for the map from g_settings, when you don't know if those are the settings being used |
| 23:21 |
hmmmm |
the solution to reading map metadata involves getting those settings straight from emerge->params |
| 23:21 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, because some are standards |
| 23:21 |
hmmmm |
he wants to make assumptions about things |
| 23:22 |
RealBadAngel |
and many other depends on them |
| 23:22 |
sapier |
I see |
| 23:22 |
hmmmm |
RealBadAngel, what's wrong with what pilzadam did? |
| 23:22 |
hmmmm |
people still need moreores for some things |
| 23:22 |
RealBadAngel |
with your changes you are breaking them all |
| 23:22 |
hmmmm |
how will it break a mod? |
| 23:23 |
RealBadAngel |
missing ores, duplicates and double ore generation |
| 23:23 |
RealBadAngel |
enough? |
| 23:23 |
PilzAdam |
what missing ores? |
| 23:23 |
Exio |
[20:10:54] <RealBadAngel> because if i will require moreores now i will cause double ores generation |
| 23:23 |
hmmmm |
yeah, how would ores be missing? |
| 23:23 |
RealBadAngel |
silver, tin, mithril |
| 23:23 |
hmmmm |
that problem would be caused by using an outdated version of moreores |
| 23:23 |
hmmmm |
and those ores would be added by using moreores |
| 23:23 |
Exio |
calinou will remove them from upstream/dev/github/whatever when the "release" gets stable |
| 23:23 |
PilzAdam |
Exio, when its stable, Calinou will remove the ores that are in common |
| 23:24 |
Exio |
exactly |
| 23:24 |
hmmmm |
oh, Pilz, so this is why you wanted me to add the ore disable |
| 23:24 |
PilzAdam |
<RealBadAngel> silver, tin, mithril <- how are they missing? they are in moreores |
| 23:24 |
VanessaE |
calinou won't remove them at all |
| 23:24 |
sapier |
just another suggestion, maybe it's been there before why not add a "register_ore()" function making core ore generator available/parametrizable frpm lua and remove every ore from core? |
| 23:24 |
VanessaE |
he said explicitly that doing so breaks 0.4.5-stable use of his mod. |
| 23:24 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, yes, he will do it if 0.4.6 is out |
| 23:24 |
hmmmm |
sapier, huh? |
| 23:25 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, if i do include moreores i do have duplicates |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
vanessae, he can still have two versions of his mod, one for legacy versions (0.4.5) and one for the current version (0.4.6+) |
| 23:25 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, if you use the dev version of minetest with the stable version of moreores, yes |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
or maybe he can just check which version is being used and not add them |
| 23:25 |
VanessaE |
he can, but would you want to have to do that if it were your mod? |
| 23:25 |
hmmmm |
well then he can check the version |
| 23:25 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, yes |
| 23:26 |
hmmmm |
oh hold on a minute |
| 23:26 |
hmmmm |
i have an even better idea |
| 23:26 |
PilzAdam |
I do that for my mods, if something in the engine is new |
| 23:26 |
hmmmm |
what if he just checks if gold and whatever exists? |
| 23:26 |
hmmmm |
if default:gold is registered, then don't bother adding it |
| 23:26 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmm, that would be better solution |
| 23:26 |
RealBadAngel |
dont allow register duplicates |
| 23:26 |
hmmmm |
come on guys, instead of setting artificial restrictions on things, why don't we come up with better solutions to problems? |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
realbadangel, the thing is, he's deciding this on the presense of the _node_, not the ore |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
there is no unique identifier for registered ores |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
and there's no real reason to have one either |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
so how about that? |
| 23:27 |
hmmmm |
calinou only registers the ores if default:stone_with_gold isn't present, and we all win |
| 23:28 |
RealBadAngel |
not really |
| 23:28 |
RealBadAngel |
users... |
| 23:28 |
RealBadAngel |
default:gold_ingot or moreores:gold_ingot... |
| 23:28 |
RealBadAngel |
that will overcomplicate mods |
| 23:29 |
|
ShadowNinja|Away joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:29 |
Exio |
? |
| 23:29 |
Exio |
moreores:gold_ingot will get deprecated |
| 23:29 |
PilzAdam |
minetest_game aliases moreores:* to default:* |
| 23:29 |
Exio |
and will work |
| 23:29 |
PilzAdam |
so there is no problem |
| 23:32 |
PilzAdam |
btw: I have the tool damage of the default tools ready for the new damage system: https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commits/damage_system |
| 23:32 |
RealBadAngel |
you know, minecraft had the very same problem at some point |
| 23:33 |
RealBadAngel |
they solved it within Forge project and called it Ores Library |
| 23:33 |
Exio |
minecraft? |
| 23:33 |
sapier |
can someone give me a hint were ore distribution code is? |
| 23:33 |
Exio |
minecraft is still *developing* the api |
| 23:34 |
RealBadAngel |
im not talkin mojang |
| 23:34 |
RealBadAngel |
i talkin about modders |
| 23:34 |
RealBadAngel |
they had the very same problem like duplicating ores etc |
| 23:34 |
PilzAdam |
the problem is that they have no register_ore() to generate the ores |
| 23:35 |
Exio |
or a real API |
| 23:35 |
RealBadAngel |
thx to this function you can generate hundreds of gold ores |
| 23:36 |
RealBadAngel |
with different names just |
| 23:36 |
PilzAdam |
AFAIK Calinou doesnt use register_ore() now, so he has to update when 0.4.6 comes out |
| 23:37 |
PilzAdam |
and putting a simple if not minetest.registered_nodes["default:stone_with_gold"] then arround it isnt very complicated |
| 23:37 |
RealBadAngel |
do you want mods to be 99% consist of if this and if that? |
| 23:38 |
sapier |
if we stop improving api minetest will be dead soon |
| 23:38 |
sapier |
imho we can't keep compatibility forever ... some versions ok ... but after some time ... a year for example ... mods have to be adapte |
| 23:39 |
PilzAdam |
the easiest way for Calinou is to provide a 0.4.5 and a 0.4.6+ version |
| 23:39 |
RealBadAngel |
this is not any easy way |
| 23:39 |
PilzAdam |
it is, I do it with my mods too |
| 23:40 |
RealBadAngel |
what are your mods like? two recipes in cross? |
| 23:40 |
RealBadAngel |
im not talkin code |
| 23:40 |
RealBadAngel |
but just recipes |
| 23:40 |
PilzAdam |
I have done it with the beds mod for example, when on_rightclick() was added |
| 23:41 |
RealBadAngel |
technic have hundreds |
| 23:41 |
sapier |
rba minetest api isn't frozen if we can't change anything that may conflict with any mod we can't do any development soon |
| 23:41 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc it isnt |
| 23:42 |
RealBadAngel |
but makin a change in worst possible way (just halfway) is a pain in the ass |
| 23:43 |
sapier |
I've removed lots of code from mob already because core got a more ore less better new feature replacing it ... it's normal for wip software |
| 23:43 |
RealBadAngel |
we could just consider moreores merged, switch, done |
| 23:43 |
RealBadAngel |
now everybody around have to rewrite mods |
| 23:43 |
PilzAdam |
but adding all ores from moreores isnt good for the game |
| 23:43 |
VanessaE |
why? |
| 23:44 |
PilzAdam |
because we will have too many ores without uses |
| 23:44 |
RealBadAngel |
where have you learned what is good for the game and whats not? |
| 23:44 |
VanessaE |
and this harms the game....how? |
| 23:44 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, I play games, and I listen to others what they think about games |
| 23:44 |
PilzAdam |
especially about MC |
| 23:45 |
VanessaE |
who cares about MC? |
| 23:45 |
VanessaE |
this is not MC. |
| 23:45 |
RealBadAngel |
we players made mods, made those ores, we use them |
| 23:45 |
RealBadAngel |
and now you dare saying there are useless? and not good for the game? |
| 23:45 |
PilzAdam |
yes |
| 23:45 |
VanessaE |
you are wrong, PilzAdam . |
| 23:46 |
sapier |
they ARE useless as long as you don't have technic too ... which I don't have normaly for example ... so you see different persons different preferences |
| 23:46 |
VanessaE |
sapier: technic isn't the only mod that uses them. |
| 23:46 |
RealBadAngel |
uh oh, is technic only mod that uses mithril silver and tin?? |
| 23:46 |
sapier |
I don't have any mod installed using moreores normaly |
| 23:47 |
sapier |
ok I admit I don't play very much |
| 23:47 |
PilzAdam |
what mods do use them? |
| 23:47 |
RealBadAngel |
point me mod that is using gold then |
| 23:47 |
VanessaE |
homedecor uses tin. |
| 23:47 |
RealBadAngel |
and bronze |
| 23:47 |
RealBadAngel |
what mod uses diamonds?? |
| 23:47 |
PilzAdam |
ok, 2 mods use it |
| 23:48 |
RealBadAngel |
im waiting PilzAdam.... |
| 23:48 |
PilzAdam |
default |
| 23:48 |
RealBadAngel |
name those mods... |
| 23:48 |
VanessaE |
a quick search shows several servers that use or used it |
| 23:48 |
RealBadAngel |
lol, not now. before you merged those ores |
| 23:49 |
VanessaE |
3d armor uses it |
| 23:49 |
PilzAdam |
why would I care? |
| 23:49 |
RealBadAngel |
what mods were using ores you have merged |
| 23:49 |
VanessaE |
(I think) |
| 23:49 |
sapier |
I'm starting to think this is a question of what default game should be |
| 23:49 |
RealBadAngel |
OH we got the point |
| 23:49 |
RealBadAngel |
YOU dont care |
| 23:49 |
RealBadAngel |
it only counts what you think and like |
| 23:49 |
sapier |
a full playable game or a engine without content |
| 23:50 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, what is the difference when I know the mods that use diamonds? |
| 23:50 |
RealBadAngel |
i would know your criteria to call something useless or not |
| 23:50 |
VanessaE |
every decent texture pack supports moreores also |
| 23:51 |
VanessaE |
dwarves game uses it |
| 23:51 |
VanessaE |
(or parts of it anyway) |
| 23:51 |
PilzAdam |
thats a game, we are talking about mods |
| 23:51 |
VanessaE |
what is a game but a collection of mods? |
| 23:51 |
VanessaE |
(customized of course) |
| 23:51 |
PilzAdam |
mods run on the default game; games doesnt |
| 23:52 |
VanessaE |
*facepalm* |
| 23:52 |
RealBadAngel |
hey, commons are also bunch of mods... |
| 23:52 |
sapier |
I suggest defining clear rules what is added to common and what not .... currently its a point of view thing |
| 23:53 |
PilzAdam |
sapier, c55 defined default as the basic content to make a MC like game |
| 23:53 |
VanessaE |
encrustable gems mod uses functions from moreores (but not the materials) |
| 23:53 |
RealBadAngel |
fuck MC. |
| 23:53 |
VanessaE |
simple cash exchanger mod |
| 23:53 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, why is that relevant? |
| 23:53 |
sapier |
"basic content" ... "mc like" .... both very vague terms |
| 23:53 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: you asked for a list of mods that use moreores. I'm listing them. |
| 23:53 |
RealBadAngel |
we are not mojang workers |
| 23:54 |
RealBadAngel |
and this is not mc this is minetest |
| 23:54 |
PilzAdam |
minetest is a MC like game |
| 23:54 |
VanessaE |
glomie's protector mod uses, I guess so does zeg9's, by extension |
| 23:54 |
RealBadAngel |
and youre like MC fan |
| 23:54 |
VanessaE |
so that's what, about 8 or so mods now? |
| 23:54 |
RealBadAngel |
are you ok with this? |
| 23:55 |
PilzAdam |
what? |
| 23:55 |
RealBadAngel |
lets have gold because mc has it |
| 23:55 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, and? whats the relevance for the current discussion? |
| 23:55 |
RealBadAngel |
but silver is no go because mc doesnt have it |
| 23:55 |
VanessaE |
ithildin mod uses it also. |
| 23:55 |
VanessaE |
YOU ASKED FOR A LIST. |
| 23:55 |
RealBadAngel |
for christ sake... |
| 23:55 |
VanessaE |
I AM LISTING. |
| 23:55 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, I think you missunderstand "MC like" |
| 23:55 |
sapier |
I don't understand why mods using some other mod make a mod so important that CORE development is forced to do what this mod requires? |
| 23:56 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, i clearly can see what are you doing |
| 23:56 |
RealBadAngel |
youre adding content literally to what mc has |
| 23:56 |
VanessaE |
automated trader uses it |
| 23:56 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, never saw bronze in MC |
| 23:57 |
RealBadAngel |
hallelujah |
| 23:57 |
RealBadAngel |
can we have hope for another thing in next few years? |
| 23:57 |
VanessaE |
bees and candles mod uses it |
| 23:58 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, I think you can stop... |
| 23:59 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: THIS is what sets the standard |
| 23:59 |
VanessaE |
not what you claim it to be. |
