| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 03:04 |
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lamefun joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:14 |
hmmmm |
i articulated my thoughts better here http://dev.minetest.net/Mapgen_V7 |
| 03:34 |
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| 04:28 |
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| 04:46 |
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| 05:12 |
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| 06:15 |
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| 06:45 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: if you modulate noise like that, you don't actually need to look at the end result to know how it was modulated |
| 06:46 |
celeron55 |
just look at the results of the noises that were used for modulation |
| 06:46 |
celeron55 |
(in addition to maybe looking the overall ground level in the result or so - but it doesn't need to be analyzed more than that) |
| 06:49 |
celeron55 |
for example. to know if there is much variance in the result (to determine mountains), you just look how large the persistence and scale are and whether the offset is something that makes it higher than average |
| 06:49 |
celeron55 |
the opposite determines plains or ocean |
| 06:51 |
hmmmm |
yes, but that single bit of noise doesn't fully determine the characteristics |
| 06:51 |
celeron55 |
then there is the problem of how to allocate "biome space" for the biomes that mods provide - but it won't be such a problem, and can be somewhat arbitrary |
| 06:52 |
hmmmm |
the base noise and modulation noise might cancel eachother out |
| 06:52 |
celeron55 |
hmm, well, that can be found out by trying to implement it |
| 06:54 |
celeron55 |
the biome space will be N-dimensional, where dimensions are heat, humidity and mountainness or maybe ground height |
| 06:54 |
celeron55 |
or something lik ethat |
| 06:54 |
celeron55 |
e<<1 |
| 06:55 |
celeron55 |
mod-provided biomes could insert points in that space, and the biome in some point would be the closest point in there |
| 06:55 |
celeron55 |
makes sense? |
| 06:56 |
celeron55 |
that'll behave like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voronoi_diagram |
| 07:30 |
hmmmm |
it makes sense, but now mod-provided biomes necessarily must modify all other biomes |
| 07:30 |
hmmmm |
adding one screws up others |
| 07:33 |
hmmmm |
also, biomes specified by heat and humidity are more cosmetic changes, certain nodes or things that spawn there, which could be applied to any variation of mountains or plains or whatever. |
| 07:33 |
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| 07:33 |
hmmmm |
originally i guess what we wanted was what minecraft has, but i think it's sort of dumb |
| 07:34 |
hmmmm |
they have snowhills, deserthills, 100 different types of hills and so on |
| 07:34 |
hmmmm |
really, the 'hill' detail is more like a different variable |
| 07:35 |
hmmmm |
i was almost getting to this with the original biome implementation i had, where desert, jungle, forest, snow were all flags |
| 08:08 |
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| 08:09 |
prestidigitator |
Greetings all. |
| 08:30 |
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| 08:57 |
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| 09:01 |
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| 09:13 |
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| 09:14 |
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| 09:30 |
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| 09:39 |
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| 10:02 |
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| 10:43 |
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| 10:44 |
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| 10:53 |
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| 11:20 |
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| 11:40 |
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BlockMen joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:41 |
BlockMen |
hi everyone |
| 11:44 |
BlockMen |
I wanted ask weather it is ok when I make a pull request for 2 graphic files( menuheader.png and menusplash.png) |
| 11:44 |
BlockMen |
the result would be look like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/mfcz2wy63yxvm2c/minetest_costum_menu.png |
| 11:54 |
PilzAdam |
sure |
| 11:56 |
PilzAdam |
what is this little gap at the right? |
| 12:01 |
BlockMen |
nice. and i'm not sure, have to check that |
| 12:10 |
BlockMen |
ok. there was missing 1px at the right |
| 12:29 |
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| 13:37 |
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BackupCoder joined #minetest-dev |
| 14:03 |
RealBadAngel |
hi |
| 14:04 |
RealBadAngel |
i dont know what others think but i dont like gfx by BlockMen |
| 14:19 |
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hmmmm joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:07 |
khonkhortisan |
The logo is fine, but the ground is a different projection than the clouds |
| 15:09 |
PilzAdam |
we should have a poll or something for the officical minetest logo |
| 15:15 |
hmmmm |
ehhhhhh... |
| 15:15 |
hmmmm |
i'd rather not change things just for the sake of change |
| 15:16 |
hmmmm |
that's how it really looks to me, some guy thinks his own art for the menu is awesome, so he comes in here and tells us about a pull request |
| 15:17 |
hmmmm |
it's not like we're obliged to comply with everybodys' requests; |
| 15:17 |
hmmmm |
a pull request is more like, "hey guys, i think i have something really cool, maybe you would like to merge it with upstream" |
| 15:19 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-03-24#i_2953816 <- have you coded anything for this yet? |
| 15:20 |
hmmmm |
oh, no.... |
| 15:20 |
hmmmm |
let's talk about details |
| 15:21 |
hmmmm |
if you were to write one linear-ramped ore distribution, you'd need to have it stop somewhere |
| 15:21 |
hmmmm |
so it'd actually take two |
| 15:21 |
hmmmm |
the increasing part, and then the part where the amount is constant after that point |
| 15:22 |
hmmmm |
so you'd have height_min = 0, height_max = -1024, and the amount of ore per chunk would increase at a constant rate |
| 15:22 |
hmmmm |
then from -1024 to -31000 you have another ore defined with no ramp that has the maximum ore distribution from the prior |
| 15:22 |
hmmmm |
yea? no? |
| 15:22 |
PilzAdam |
maybe merge it so there is only one ore definition? |
| 15:23 |
hmmmm |
that would be gross |
| 15:23 |
PilzAdam |
like: amount = {{height_min=-1024, height_max=0, type="linear"}, {height_min..., type="constant"}} |
| 15:25 |
hmmmm |
it'd require a lot of re-coding to do that |
| 15:27 |
PilzAdam |
then maybe do it your way |
| 15:28 |
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serengeor joined #minetest-dev |
| 15:28 |
PilzAdam |
how do we define how much it increases? with clust_scarcity_min and _max? |
| 15:28 |
hmmmm |
i don't know |
| 15:29 |
hmmmm |
i'm thinking about how you had it and it sounds more appealing the more i think about it |
| 15:30 |
hmmmm |
also, keep in mind that you'll only see this increase in whole chunks |
| 15:32 |
PilzAdam |
I think linear is enough, no need for quadratic,cubic or logarithmic |
| 15:32 |
hmmmm |
well isn't linear sort of boring |
| 15:32 |
PilzAdam |
no |
| 15:33 |
PilzAdam |
its not like everyone sees every ore; people will just notice: "The deeper I get the more ores I find" |
| 15:34 |
hmmmm |
nclusters = volume / (clust_scarcity / ((height_max - height_min) / height_max)); |
| 15:34 |
hmmmm |
hrm i need to multiply by nmax.Y too, woops |
| 15:35 |
hmmmm |
i'll do it later |
| 15:35 |
hmmmm |
working on something different at the moment |
| 15:35 |
PilzAdam |
maybe give Lua the ability to define a function(height) to return the scarcity |
| 15:35 |
hmmmm |
getting too complicated |
| 16:03 |
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| 16:03 |
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Jordach joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:08 |
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dexter0 joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:43 |
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rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev |
| 16:51 |
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Calinou joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:03 |
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| 17:10 |
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rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:18 |
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BlockMen joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:20 |
BlockMen |
hmmmm:"that's how it really looks to me, some guy thinks his own art for the menu is awesome, so he comes in here and tells us about a pull request" |
| 17:20 |
BlockMen |
actually i "came in here" to prevent the impression, that I'm thinking my art is so "awesome". Thats why I asked first wheather it would be ok to make a pull request for that. |
| 17:21 |
BlockMen |
I just wanted to support the project with something I can do, because I'm not a genius at C++... |
| 17:21 |
hmmmm |
oh... sorry, i didn't mean to put it that way |
| 17:22 |
hmmmm |
thank you for the contribution, it's just that it's not definite that your art will make it into the final product |
| 17:22 |
hmmmm |
people have to decide on this |
| 17:22 |
* Jordach |
votes for it |
| 17:23 |
BlockMen |
its ok. and i know that it is not definite |
| 17:23 |
BlockMen |
but honestly i don't know who does when decide what |
| 17:24 |
BlockMen |
so this thing i thought has the dev-team to decide |
| 17:25 |
BlockMen |
so should i make a competition on forum instead? |
| 17:27 |
hmmmm |
sounds good |
| 17:27 |
hmmmm |
and now that i look at it again, i do like the header, but not so much the footer |
| 17:28 |
hmmmm |
i know people are going to complain about how it looks similar to minecraft though. |
| 17:32 |
BlockMen |
ok, then i'm going to put a new topic on forum bout this later |
| 17:37 |
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proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 17:56 |
PilzAdam |
IMO we should remove the fleshy group from tools (so they cant be used as a weapon) |
| 17:57 |
hmmmm |
nonsense.. tools are weapons |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
you've never seen anybody get hurt when hit with a shovel? |
| 17:59 |
PilzAdam |
why do we have swords then? |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
to hurt more |
| 18:08 |
PilzAdam |
how fast should the diamond pick be? |
| 18:09 |
hmmmm |
i'd say the same speed as the mese pick |
| 18:09 |
PilzAdam |
currently I have 1 click destroy of stone |
| 18:09 |
hmmmm |
insta-mine? |
| 18:09 |
PilzAdam |
(wich is 0.3) |
| 18:09 |
hmmmm |
we should reserve that for enchanted tools |
| 18:10 |
PilzAdam |
I am rewriting every tool to be able to place diamond on top of it |
| 18:10 |
hmmmm |
hmm? |
| 18:10 |
hmmmm |
you mean you're making a diamond variant of the four tools |
| 18:10 |
PilzAdam |
s/every tool/all digging times |
| 18:10 |
hmmmm |
just make it the same as mese |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
the reason why you'd want a diamond tool is because it'll last longer than mese |
| 18:11 |
PilzAdam |
<hmmmm> i'd say the same speed as the mese pick <- also leave mese pick at the same speed? |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
diamond has to be rarer than mese though |
| 18:11 |
PilzAdam |
Im doing the tools first |
| 18:11 |
PilzAdam |
if you finished your thing then I can make the mapgen |
| 18:12 |
hmmmm |
(i guess the reason why i want it this way is because i feel like mese tools don't last long enough, given that they're the best tools) |
| 18:12 |
hmmmm |
mmm |
| 18:12 |
hmmmm |
alright, i'll get on tat |
| 18:12 |
hmmmm |
that |
| 18:13 |
PilzAdam |
I also put in mese axe, shovel and sword |
| 18:13 |
hmmmm |
i think celeron's intention with only having a mese pick was that the mese pick was the one tool to rule all of them and any other wasn't necessary |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
celeron doesn't like the whole mese crystal idea and he probably won't like that either, he seems to be quite picky about mese for some reason... |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
it's just a yellow block with a nonsensical name |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
at least we're giving it some substance |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
i'm sure the rest of the minetest players will like other mese gear |
| 18:17 |
PilzAdam |
IMO the mese pick should be a little bit slower than the diamond one |
| 18:17 |
hmmmm |
well okay |
| 18:17 |
Exio |
for me, not |
| 18:18 |
PilzAdam |
only 0.1 sec. |
| 18:18 |
hmmmm |
hmm, quick question for you guys |
| 18:19 |
hmmmm |
for mapgen v7 we're going to have to add portals of some kind, it's necessary for the hell/sky realms |
| 18:19 |
hmmmm |
do we want to use RBA's stargates, or copy minecraft's portals? |
| 18:19 |
PilzAdam |
maybe think of something else? |
| 18:23 |
hmmmm |
what else can we do? |
| 18:24 |
PilzAdam |
maybe dig into nether? |
| 18:24 |
rubenwardy|away |
how about something that looks like a stone henge? |
| 18:24 |
rubenwardy|away |
as a portal |
| 18:24 |
hmmmm |
bahahahahahah, dig into the nether, the nether is going to be at -4096 |
| 18:24 |
PilzAdam |
there are already shafts to -31000 |
| 18:25 |
hmmmm |
ruben, maybe, i like that idea, i think that portals should be more grand than they are in minecraft |
| 18:25 |
hmmmm |
maybe the stonehenge portal should be for teleporting to the sky |
| 18:26 |
rubenwardy|away |
:D |
| 18:26 |
rubenwardy|away |
or a star trek style portal... |
| 18:28 |
RealBadAngel |
my idea was 3x3 for local ones and 4x4 for server travel (like intergalactical travel) |
| 18:29 |
hmmmm |
intergalactic travel needed much bigger stargates, as in season 10 |
| 18:31 |
BlockMen |
how about sky like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw1movXKfsk#t=122 |
| 18:33 |
RealBadAngel |
who said mt world from orbit looks like earth? ;) |
| 18:35 |
BlockMen |
ok..then a big blue/green cube :) |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
about diamonds: |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
minetest.register_ore({ |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
ore_type = "scatter", |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
ore = "technic:mineral_diamond", |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
wherein = "default:stone", |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
clust_scarcity = 11*11*11, |
| 18:38 |
BlockMen |
moon would also be cool...that is maybe better for gameplay than space |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
clust_num_ores = 4, |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
clust_size = 3, |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
height_min = -31000, |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
height_max = -450, |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
}) |
| 18:38 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, pastebin |
| 18:38 |
BlockMen |
with moonstone or something similar |
| 18:39 |
RealBadAngel |
ooops. sorry that was supposed to copy pastebins link, not the content |
| 18:40 |
khonkhortisan |
there you are - it appears shading turns with the facedir |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
i saw the pictures, what were you using to move the nodes? |
| 18:41 |
khonkhortisan |
add_node |
| 18:42 |
khonkhortisan |
I'm loading the whole cube into a table, rotating the facedir into another table, then doing add_node right over the previous cube. |
| 18:42 |
RealBadAngel |
i will take a look at it, but that should not happen, i saw the lighting code and it should stay intact |
| 18:43 |
RealBadAngel |
are cubes regular nodes or nodeboxes? |
| 18:43 |
khonkhortisan |
//fixlight didn't help |
| 18:44 |
khonkhortisan |
they're nodes |
| 18:44 |
Exio |
hmmmm: i'd say "portals" crafted with expensive materials and so |
| 18:44 |
RealBadAngel |
okay, i will take closer look at it tommorow |
| 18:46 |
khonkhortisan |
okay thanks |
| 18:47 |
RealBadAngel |
please upload the code somwhere |
| 18:47 |
RealBadAngel |
so i can test it |
| 18:48 |
khonkhortisan |
pushed https://github.com/khonkhortisan/rubiks |
| 18:48 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: if you're rewriting some tool capabilities, let me review them first; i'm, not very comfortable with people's understanding of how it's supposed to be balaned |
| 18:48 |
celeron55_ |
balanced* |
| 18:48 |
celeron55_ |
-, |
| 18:48 |
khonkhortisan |
or not, I don't see my new commits |
| 18:48 |
* VanessaE |
peeks in |
| 18:49 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55_, why do swords have the group choppy and why is wood snappy? |
| 18:49 |
khonkhortisan |
there it is https://github.com/khonkhortisan/rubiks/tree/6dfacedir |
| 18:49 |
celeron55_ |
swords have choppy because you actually can chop wood with a heavy sword just as with an axe; about snappy i don't know |
| 18:50 |
PilzAdam |
Id like to remove choppy from swords and fleshy from all other tools |
| 18:50 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: what i am concerned is how you use the digging time values vs. maxlevel |
| 18:50 |
celeron55_ |
not much else |
| 18:52 |
RealBadAngel |
khonkhortisan, ok, i will use it for testing |
| 18:52 |
VanessaE |
guys, a question: |
| 18:52 |
VanessaE |
[03-26 14:48] <jojoa1997|Tablet> minecraft now supports and texture moving so now some things wont work |
| 18:52 |
VanessaE |
[03-26 14:50] <VanessaE> you mean animated ores |
| 18:52 |
VanessaE |
[03-26 14:50] <VanessaE> like an occasional glint of light on silver or something |
| 18:52 |
VanessaE |
[03-26 14:51] <jojoa1997|Tablet> yeah |
| 18:52 |
VanessaE |
Opinions on this? |
| 18:52 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: i don't think removing fleshy from eg. axes is wise |
| 18:52 |
celeron55_ |
it's very counterintuitive if you can't attack something with an axe |
| 18:53 |
celeron55_ |
VanessaE: what does that even mean |
| 18:54 |
sfan5 |
celeron55_: every texture can be 16x(16*frames) and it will be animated automatically |
| 18:54 |
VanessaE |
celeron55_: to expand on his question, imagine, say, silver ore that occasionally shines - like a lens flare that flicks by now and then |
| 18:55 |
celeron55_ |
where is the original source for this? |
| 18:55 |
celeron55_ |
a release notice? something? |
| 18:56 |
VanessaE |
a quick google search shows a number of people doing this in MC now. |
| 18:56 |
PilzAdam |
its very hard to create the group ratings for fleshy, because the current damage system of minetest sucks |
| 18:56 |
PilzAdam |
there are only players with fleshy=3 and snappy=2 |
| 18:56 |
PilzAdam |
nothing else |
| 18:57 |
celeron55_ |
the first part of making it better is explaining how it sucks |
| 18:57 |
rubenwardy |
Minetest, with a dayz style health system = awesome |
| 18:57 |
PilzAdam |
what sucks is that there is no armor that would modify the players groups |
| 18:58 |
PilzAdam |
then there are 2 groups, fleshy and snappy |
| 18:58 |
celeron55_ |
that isn't really related to the actual system |
| 18:59 |
PilzAdam |
players should have only the group fleshy |
| 18:59 |
celeron55_ |
i am not saying that the system is good - i am saying that it hasn't even been put properly into use yet, so nobody can know |
| 18:59 |
rubenwardy |
It would be great, if there was a damage multiplier. |
| 18:59 |
rubenwardy |
IE: armour can set it to 0.5, and stuff like hunger, drugs and illness can set it to 5 |
| 18:59 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: not that i know if they should or should not have only it, but... why? |
| 19:00 |
PilzAdam |
because when it comes to player damage, you just want to define the damage |
| 19:00 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: you are just throwing single statements in the air; do you have some kind of a coherent vision or goal here that would possibly explain all that you are going to make? |
| 19:01 |
PilzAdam |
like full_punch_interval/damage |
| 19:01 |
PilzAdam |
why would you need 2 groups for that? |
| 19:01 |
PilzAdam |
it would be much easier, if you just define the damage of a tool |
| 19:02 |
PilzAdam |
what complicates it currently, is that the player has 2 groups |
| 19:02 |
celeron55_ |
it could make deeper tactics and multidimensional usefulness of tools possible |
| 19:03 |
celeron55_ |
but you're free to remove the other and see how it works |
| 19:03 |
PilzAdam |
its hardcoded somehwere in the engine |
| 19:03 |
VanessaE |
celeron55_: the animated textures were added to MC on the 13th, version 1.5.0 |
| 19:05 |
celeron55_ |
VanessaE: hmm, apparently |
| 19:06 |
celeron55_ |
looks pretty much like how it has been in MT since last summer :P |
| 19:07 |
VanessaE |
yup |
| 19:07 |
VanessaE |
except that we have to explicitly enable animations in a given node. |
| 19:07 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: hmm, that's true |
| 19:09 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: it's in content_sao.cpp; in two occasions - one for the default for lua entities and one for players |
| 19:09 |
celeron55_ |
it's probably wise to change the default to the simplest possible and let games set them more complicatedly if they want |
| 19:10 |
PilzAdam |
the simplest possible is fleshy=3 |
| 19:11 |
PilzAdam |
also swords should wear out when punching entities |
| 19:12 |
celeron55_ |
actually you probably want to set it to fleshy=2 |
| 19:13 |
PilzAdam |
why? |
| 19:14 |
celeron55_ |
it gives one worth of room to both directions |
| 19:14 |
celeron55_ |
i don't know how balancing it will work out, but i think that would be a better starting point |
| 19:15 |
PilzAdam |
people are already complaining that its 3, because it allows only 2 possible armor improvements |
| 19:15 |
celeron55_ |
well that is exactly how the system can be misunderstood |
| 19:16 |
celeron55_ |
you set level to something higher to get a general improvement like that |
| 19:16 |
khonkhortisan |
RealBadAngel, more info: every face rotates the shading, not just the bottom |
| 19:16 |
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| 19:17 |
celeron55_ |
the player should probably have level=1 or level=2 by default so that there can be much easier targets than the player |
| 19:18 |
celeron55_ |
it's now 0 which is probably bad |
| 19:18 |
PilzAdam |
then make it 2, because there are tougher enemies than the player |
| 19:18 |
celeron55_ |
level goes to an other direction than the others |
| 19:18 |
celeron55_ |
higher is tougher |
| 19:18 |
PilzAdam |
oh, sorry, I read it wrong |
| 19:18 |
PilzAdam |
I read fleshy instead of level |
| 19:20 |
celeron55_ |
let me make some examples here... maybe it makes things a bit clearer |
| 19:21 |
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| 19:21 |
celeron55_ |
so let's assume the player is by default fleshy=2,level=1 |
| 19:23 |
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| 19:23 |
celeron55_ |
and let's assume a... pig is fleshy=3,level=0 and, say, a bear is fleshy=1,level=2 |
| 19:25 |
celeron55_ |
and some... ehm... rock monster is cracky=2,level=1 |
| 19:26 |
celeron55_ |
let's decide to create a sword that can just kill a bear |
| 19:27 |
celeron55_ |
it happens that the steel sword from default is like that; it has fleshy={times={[1]=2.00, [2]=0.80, [3]=0.40}, uses=10, maxlevel=2},fleshy={times={[1]=2.00, [2]=0.80, [3]=0.40}, uses=10, maxlevel=2} |
| 19:27 |
celeron55_ |
...crappy middle button |
| 19:29 |
celeron55_ |
so if you hit it maximally with that, it will... actually make 0.5 nodes worth of damage, which is 0 |
| 19:29 |
celeron55_ |
so actually this can't kill it |
| 19:30 |
celeron55_ |
actually 0.8/2.0=0.4 |
| 19:30 |
|
Calinou joined #minetest-dev |
| 19:32 |
celeron55_ |
hmm, setting this up is kind of odd |
| 19:32 |
celeron55_ |
so first of all, we never want to set a times value lower than full_punch_interval, because that's utterly useless |
| 19:32 |
celeron55_ |
i mean, higher than |
| 19:32 |
Calinou |
lower than allows some "error margin", it's fine that way :P |
| 19:33 |
PilzAdam |
<celeron55_> hmm, setting this up is kind of odd <- that was what I was talking about |
| 19:33 |
PilzAdam |
*is |
| 19:34 |
celeron55_ |
i'm going to do something about this, but i'll go through this |
| 19:34 |
celeron55_ |
so let's keep full_punch_interval=0.8, and set fleshy={times={[1]=0.5, [2]=0.33, [3]=0.2}, uses=10, maxlevel=2} |
| 19:34 |
celeron55_ |
actually no |
| 19:35 |
celeron55_ |
fleshy={times={[1]=0.4, [2]=0.2, [3]=0.1}, uses=10, maxlevel=2} this will make some sense |
| 19:36 |
celeron55_ |
so now you go hit the bear and it will make 2 damage every time it's perfectly done |
| 19:36 |
celeron55_ |
so now we shall test this against the other guys |
| 19:37 |
Calinou |
bear? |
| 19:37 |
PilzAdam |
https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commit/8fb22daaca73f1ac38ef0b23e6bdcc905f3bdb48 |
| 19:37 |
PilzAdam |
what I have currently for the digging times |
| 19:38 |
celeron55_ |
in pvp, this will deal 0.8/0.2 = 4 nodes of damage to a unarmoured player |
| 19:38 |
celeron55_ |
which makes some sense |
| 19:39 |
celeron55_ |
against the pig, it will do 0.8/0.1*2=16 (*2 because at a level difference of >=2, it will start multiplying like this) |
| 19:39 |
PilzAdam |
umm... isnt it 1/(full_punch_interval*damage)? |
| 19:40 |
celeron55_ |
wat? |
| 19:41 |
hmmmm |
hey celeron, why do you serialize all of the parameters together, and not whole MapNodes? did you figure that it compresses better with each of the fields combined like that? |
| 19:41 |
PilzAdam |
if you have the same level |
| 19:41 |
celeron55_ |
hmmmm: it will compress a lot better |
| 19:41 |
hmmmm |
yeah figured as much. |
| 19:41 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: what is "it", and what is damage? |
| 19:42 |
celeron55_ |
that doesn't make any sense to me |
| 19:42 |
PilzAdam |
oops, damage = group rating |
| 19:42 |
celeron55_ |
group rating? |
| 19:42 |
celeron55_ |
more like digging time, and even then it's completely wrong |
| 19:43 |
celeron55_ |
where did you pull that from :P |
| 19:43 |
PilzAdam |
my head :-( |
| 19:43 |
Calinou |
"diamond_in_ground.png" should be "default_mineral_diamond.png"... |
| 19:43 |
PilzAdam |
Calinou, it is |
| 19:43 |
Calinou |
ah ok |
| 19:43 |
PilzAdam |
I just forgot to delete diamond_in_ground.png |
| 19:44 |
hmmmm |
you know, minecraft doesn't have silver |
| 19:44 |
hmmmm |
i wonder if we need it? |
| 19:44 |
celeron55_ |
so continued; agains the stone monster it will obviously make zero damage (assuming it doesn't have cracky defined in addition to the beforementioned fleshy) |
| 19:44 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 19:44 |
VanessaE |
we have a standard 5-ore set. use 'em all |
| 19:44 |
VanessaE |
there's no reason not to anyway |
| 19:45 |
PilzAdam |
we already have gold without any use |
| 19:45 |
VanessaE |
so? |
| 19:45 |
hmmmm |
you can make decorative gold blocks |
| 19:45 |
VanessaE |
does dirt have any real use? |
| 19:45 |
Calinou |
+1 for silver |
| 19:45 |
VanessaE |
or gravel? |
| 19:45 |
PilzAdam |
do you want silver tools? |
| 19:45 |
Calinou |
yeah |
| 19:45 |
hmmmm |
ehh |
| 19:46 |
VanessaE |
I don't care about extra tools, I care about using those minerals to make other stuff |
| 19:46 |
Calinou |
faster than iron but less durability? |
| 19:46 |
VanessaE |
I use silver + copper to make brass in homedecor, for example. |
| 19:46 |
Calinou |
maybe give them a drawback: very long times to mine mese and such |
| 19:46 |
hmmmm |
perhaps silver can have some sort of use with its antibacterial properties |
| 19:46 |
PilzAdam |
silver apples instead of golden apples? |
| 19:46 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: a special weapon to defeat slines? |
| 19:47 |
Calinou |
we used to have iron apples, why not put 'em back |
| 19:47 |
hmmmm |
perhaps |
| 19:47 |
* Calinou |
never saw one though |
| 19:47 |
PilzAdam |
maybe only a silver sword |
| 19:47 |
hmmmm |
yeah, silver sword |
| 19:47 |
celeron55_ |
so, now if the player wants to protect himself from this sword in pvp, he wears up some armor that raises his level by one and lowers fleshy to 1, which makes him equal to the bear in terms of damage dealt... but there is no way anything could now take 1hp per proper hit from this sword... only 0 or 2 or higher 8) |
| 19:48 |
hmmmm |
heh |
| 19:48 |
hmmmm |
some mods can let you make a silver chloride powder that you can drop above cloud level and it'd cause rain |
| 19:48 |
celeron55_ |
this is actually quite complicated |
| 19:48 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: nice idea! |
| 19:49 |
hmmmm |
anyway the original usage for gold in minecraft was for currency |
| 19:49 |
celeron55_ |
i mean, improving this |
| 19:49 |
hmmmm |
there was an intended currency system.. also golden apples but that's a crappy idea because gold is quite rare |
| 19:49 |
celeron55_ |
if we're to make completely different definitions for weapons, then coupling weapon damage and node damage from eg. explosions is hard |
| 19:49 |
celeron55_ |
currently it's, in threory, trivial to do |
| 19:49 |
celeron55_ |
theory* |
| 19:50 |
hmmmm |
i feel like the damage system is overcomplicated, if i were implementing it i would've done something completely different |
| 19:50 |
hmmmm |
but it's here now and it's not going to change |
| 19:50 |
celeron55_ |
it's probably going to change; but it's still very unclear to me how exactly |
| 19:51 |
Calinou |
it's not that hard to understand once you've understood it |
| 19:51 |
hmmmm |
i'm staying out of it |
| 19:51 |
Calinou |
full punch interval = the max "damage power" you can have |
| 19:51 |
Calinou |
digging times = how much a damage point costs in "damage power" |
| 19:51 |
celeron55_ |
Calinou: it isn't that hard to understand, but even when i fully understand it, i can't make the results that i want using it |
| 19:52 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55_, maybe make everything the same level and invert the fleshy group (1 = weakest), so its easier to define the armor groups |
| 19:52 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: no, that isn't good |
| 19:52 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: ok, so... in addition to ore->lump->ingot->block, we have gold for currency, silver for that special sword, how about copper for anything conductive, tin for alloying with other stuff (e.g. to make bronze), mithril as another "magical" ore like mese, but perhaps more "powerful" |
| 19:52 |
VanessaE |
(given how rare it is) |
| 19:52 |
celeron55_ |
the way largest problem here is the roughness of the HP scale |
| 19:52 |
hmmmm |
well hold on |
| 19:53 |
hmmmm |
both gold and silver have higher conductance than copper |
| 19:53 |
celeron55_ |
the first thing i'll modify is making 1 node equal 10hp |
| 19:53 |
hmmmm |
you should be able to make conductive materials with any of those three |
| 19:53 |
celeron55_ |
that will get us to a good start |
| 19:53 |
VanessaE |
yes but how often do so see them used in anything except an IC or a connector? |
| 19:53 |
hmmmm |
well it's the user's own stupidity of he uses something rare like gold or silver for a connector 8) |
| 19:54 |
VanessaE |
but I'm just thinking of the primary use of each material |
| 19:54 |
VanessaE |
heh true |
| 19:54 |
hmmmm |
besides, minecraft has gold powered tracks |
| 19:54 |
VanessaE |
but I meant in the electronics industry |
| 19:54 |
celeron55_ |
then we'll add an alternate way of "digging times" of weapons, by putting something like this instead of "times": damage={[1]=10, [2]=6, [3]=3} |
| 19:54 |
hmmmm |
but nobody ever uses it |
| 19:54 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, dont be too realistic |
| 19:54 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: nothing wrong with "realistic" if it also makes sense generally. |
| 19:55 |
celeron55_ |
and still, "For lower leveled nodes, the use count is multiplied by 3^leveldiff" <- this is made 2^leveldiff |
| 19:55 |
celeron55_ |
then we will have a workable damage system |
| 19:56 |
celeron55_ |
(i didn't really expect anyone to understand but) ...how does that sound like? |
| 19:56 |
celeron55_ |
8) |
| 19:57 |
PilzAdam |
"damage={[1]=10, [2]=6, [3]=3}" why in this order? |
| 19:57 |
celeron55_ |
because that is how minetest's digging/damage groups are defined to work |
| 19:57 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: of course I can only speak of my own uses of the various materials... for example in homedecor, the oven uses a copper ingot in its recipe to represent the heating element, a fridge uses tin to vaguely represent the heat exchanger coils, silver and copper combine to make brass, gold and mithril aren't used for anything yet |
| 19:57 |
celeron55_ |
that is a thing that simply won't be changed |
| 19:57 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55_, I though you wanted {3,6,10} |
| 19:57 |
PilzAdam |
*thought |
| 19:58 |
celeron55_ |
but really, this actually still sucks |
| 19:58 |
PilzAdam |
or is this still digging time? |
| 19:58 |
celeron55_ |
it's just the same as how digging time works but it's calculated for the user |
| 19:59 |
PilzAdam |
because damage basically is inverted digging time |
| 19:59 |
celeron55_ |
this still sucks mainly because in digging time, a level difference of 1 doesn't cause any difference to time (this is good for digging things) |
| 19:59 |
celeron55_ |
but it is very bad for this |
| 19:59 |
celeron55_ |
or... somewhat bad |
| 20:00 |
celeron55_ |
or actually i don't know |
| 20:01 |
celeron55_ |
so let's define the requirements for a damage system |
| 20:02 |
celeron55_ |
one of the basis to this i guess is that players have 20 health points and other entities are expected to have similar amounts of those |
| 20:03 |
PilzAdam |
then there should be different armor groups, were tools cause different damages |
| 20:03 |
celeron55_ |
definitely; otherwise it's very monotonous |
| 20:05 |
celeron55_ |
so then, there is one question left: how is it handled that a player cannot kill a "boss" monster by using his initial weapons? i guess it's either just a matter of the monster having so many HP that it kills the player before the player kills it, or it has some armor that the player needs to find a special weapon for |
| 20:06 |
celeron55_ |
so now, this would imply that just defining how much HP a weapon does with a full hit to each group, and probably keep full_punch_interval around |
| 20:06 |
celeron55_ |
+would be enough |
| 20:07 |
PilzAdam |
that is what I wanted with inverting fleshy and leave level completly out |
| 20:08 |
celeron55_ |
i don't want to invert it; it has to behave like other groups |
| 20:08 |
celeron55_ |
any digging groups serve as armor groups too |
| 20:08 |
PilzAdam |
but it isnt like other groups |
| 20:08 |
celeron55_ |
it is |
| 20:08 |
PilzAdam |
I think that is what causes the most problems |
| 20:09 |
celeron55_ |
but you can't fix it properly because the only group you can possibly arguably invert is fleshy |
| 20:09 |
celeron55_ |
or do we define that all groups are inverted in entities? |
| 20:10 |
celeron55_ |
that is actually probably a possibility |
| 20:10 |
celeron55_ |
but what would the groups do? |
| 20:12 |
celeron55_ |
maybe make them, for entities, be signed numbers with 0 meaning no effect, negative meaning multiplication of damage and positive meaning division of damage... umm |
| 20:12 |
celeron55_ |
in some way |
| 20:15 |
hmmmm |
group is the exponent? |
| 20:16 |
hmmmm |
but that's what leveldiff already does |
| 20:16 |
hmmmm |
if leveldiff is negative it divides in effect |
| 20:16 |
hmmmm |
vanessae, let's try not to skew the usage for these blocks in any particular way, it's probably best left up to the modmakers to decide. |
| 20:17 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: that's perfectly fair. |
| 20:17 |
VanessaE |
I'm just trying to come up with a "reason" to add them, since that seems to be desirous among others here |
| 20:17 |
hmmmm |
well how about this: |
| 20:18 |
hmmmm |
the reason for gravel, sandstone, brick, etc. is because they're in minecraft |
| 20:18 |
hmmmm |
well, gold et al. are in minecraft too, so there's all the justification necessary |
| 20:20 |
VanessaE |
*sigh* another bad::alloc crash, same as the previous ones. http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5650397/ |
| 20:20 |
VanessaE |
ok, that's fair enough |
| 20:20 |
VanessaE |
if MC has them, there's no reason we can't as well |
| 20:20 |
hmmmm |
this might be a stl migration problem |
| 20:20 |
VanessaE |
(at least for ores, blocks, etc() |
| 20:21 |
hmmmm |
obviously, we need to check what code paths taken were modified when a player joins |
| 20:22 |
hmmmm |
perhaps you can compile as debug, and we'll know where the exception actually came from? |
| 20:22 |
VanessaE |
sure |
| 20:22 |
VanessaE |
willdo |
| 20:23 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55_, here is what I currently have for the digging times: https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commit/diamonds |
| 20:23 |
PilzAdam |
you wanted to look over them |
| 20:29 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: looks quite minor; i won't care until i see or hear it working badly :P |
| 20:30 |
celeron55_ |
umm |
| 20:31 |
celeron55_ |
how are you going to mine diamond or mese, as they both require diamond or mese picks? |
| 20:31 |
PilzAdam |
only the full blocks do |
| 20:31 |
celeron55_ |
the ores should probably have level=2 too |
| 20:31 |
celeron55_ |
or at least 1 |
| 20:32 |
celeron55_ |
currently you can just go and dig diamond with a stone pick |
| 20:32 |
celeron55_ |
not very good |
| 20:32 |
PilzAdam |
no, you cant |
| 20:33 |
PilzAdam |
stone pick has only cracky=2 while the ores have cracky=1 |
| 20:33 |
celeron55_ |
oh |
| 20:33 |
celeron55_ |
i see |
| 20:34 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: there, debug build is in place and running normally, under gdb. |
| 20:34 |
hmmmm |
grate |
| 20:34 |
PilzAdam |
and ores dont have level>0 because you only break the stone arround them |
| 20:34 |
* VanessaE |
hands hmmmm kitchen utensil. |
| 20:35 |
PilzAdam |
hm, should I make iron and gold cracky=2? |
| 20:36 |
hmmmm |
i don't think iron and gold are cracky |
| 20:37 |
PilzAdam |
but you shouldnt be able to dig them with a wooden pickaxe |
| 20:41 |
PilzAdam |
so there are 2 things missing for diamonds and gold to be merged: hmmmm's register_ore additions and the new damage system |
| 20:41 |
hmmmm |
doing other stuff atm |
| 20:42 |
PilzAdam |
but I think it could be pushed without the damage system |
| 20:42 |
PilzAdam |
just leave the TODO note there |
| 20:43 |
hmmmm |
grrrr |
| 20:44 |
hmmmm |
i'll do the ore thing, hold on,. |
| 20:49 |
hmmmm |
well, later. |
| 20:50 |
PilzAdam |
I can wait |
| 21:02 |
celeron55_ |
http://dev.minetest.net/Damage_system#Damage_calculation_2 |
| 21:02 |
celeron55_ |
based on all of my experience, that would/will work |
| 21:05 |
celeron55_ |
the implementation is incompatible (as in existing things will do nothing) (otoh, who uses the current tool damage anyway) but can share much of the existing framework; just a few pieces here and there get additions and modifications |
| 21:07 |
celeron55_ |
the only arbitrary thing is the percentage interpretation of the group value; it is the only sane way to do it, as groups values are integers and an inexisting group equals zero equals inexisting gtroup |
| 21:07 |
celeron55_ |
group* |
| 21:10 |
celeron55_ |
now i'm out; i might implement that if nobody else does it, but probably not too soon |
| 21:10 |
celeron55_ |
->Z |
| 21:10 |
celeron55_ |
...terrible typos all the time |
| 21:16 |
hmmmm |
hmmm alright, so i can do the ores while dinner is cooking |
| 21:16 |
hmmmm |
so i'll have two new fields and change another |
| 21:16 |
hmmmm |
clust_scarcity will be gone, clust_scarcity_min and clust_scarcity_max will be added, along with clust_scarcity_ramp_end |
| 21:17 |
hmmmm |
i'll find better names that aren't as long later |
| 21:17 |
PilzAdam |
sounds good |
| 21:17 |
hmmmm |
clust_scarcity_ramp will be a value strictly in between height_min and height_max |
| 21:17 |
hmmmm |
the greater clust_scarcity is, the less ore there is |
| 21:18 |
hmmmm |
but we want there to be at least clust_scarcity_min throughout the whole thing. |
| 21:18 |
hmmmm |
so if y is greater than or equal to clust_scarcity_ramp, the effective scarcity will be clust_scarcity_min |
| 21:19 |
hmmmm |
if height_max < y < clust_scarcity_ramp, then the effective scarcity will be clust_scarcity_min + R |
| 21:20 |
hmmmm |
R is the scarcity linearily interpolated with the amount it's down |
| 21:21 |
hmmmm |
R = min + d * (max - min), where d = [(clust_scarcity_ramp - height_max) - (current_y - height_max)] / (clust_scarcity_ramp - height_max) |
| 21:21 |
hmmmm |
that is, the percentage change |
| 21:21 |
hmmmm |
of the relative values of those height variables |
| 21:22 |
hmmmm |
and for a decreasing ramp, you'd just tack on a negative sign to the whole thing |
| 21:22 |
hmmmm |
and i have to properly adjust height_min/height_max for an upward/downward slope |
| 21:35 |
VanessaE |
I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to keep clust_scarcity anyway |
| 21:35 |
VanessaE |
and just not use it if the other params are not specified |
| 21:59 |
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BlockMen joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:00 |
BlockMen |
hi everyone |
| 22:02 |
BlockMen |
there are one or two questions left about the main menu competion |
| 22:03 |
BlockMen |
first: should just the two files be changed like at my try? |
| 22:03 |
BlockMen |
and second: should the new coulds be integrated? |
| 22:04 |
BlockMen |
and third: just the background or also the menu itself? |
| 22:07 |
|
ShadowNinja joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:07 |
PilzAdam |
second: yes |
| 22:08 |
PilzAdam |
it should work with them enabled and disabled |
| 22:11 |
BlockMen |
ok, then question 3 plz, because then question 1 is answered aswell ;) |
| 22:14 |
PilzAdam |
we need some suggestions for a redesigned menu |
| 22:16 |
BlockMen |
okay. summing up: no, yes, yes |
| 22:17 |
PilzAdam |
better: depends on 3; yes; maybe, depends how many people can code suggestions and if they are good |
| 22:22 |
|
troller joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:22 |
BlockMen |
Here are the rules: - The newly integrated dynamic clouds have to be part of design - The design should look good even with disabled menu clouds - You can also include suggestions for a new Menu layout itself |
| 22:22 |
BlockMen |
ok that way? |
| 22:23 |
ShadowNinja |
sounds good |
| 22:23 |
PilzAdam |
+ code for the whole menu if you suggest a general redesign |
| 22:23 |
PilzAdam |
otherwise nobody will do it |
| 22:24 |
BlockMen |
will be added |
| 22:25 |
PilzAdam |
and add the node "menu_clouds = false in minetest.conf to disable menuclouds" |
| 22:25 |
PilzAdam |
*note |
| 22:26 |
VanessaE |
guys, can we PLEASE change the filename spec for screenshots? |
| 22:27 |
VanessaE |
to something that makes some semblance of SENSE? |
| 22:34 |
BlockMen |
ok, here is the new topic: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=78959 |
| 22:35 |
BlockMen |
could someone check? |
| 22:35 |
hmmmm |
i guess it's fine |
| 22:36 |
hmmmm |
i still can't understand why the main menu needs to change |
| 22:36 |
hmmmm |
i thought almost everybody likes it? |
| 22:36 |
VanessaE |
I'm quite happy with the way the main menu is set up right now |
| 22:36 |
PilzAdam |
maybe someone comes up with something brilliant |
| 22:36 |
PilzAdam |
you never know... |
| 22:38 |
BlockMen |
dont get this wrong, i think that was a great idea with the clouds! |
| 22:39 |
BlockMen |
but IMO it just missing something |
| 22:41 |
BlockMen |
and thx for support so far btw |
| 23:50 |
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BlockMen left #minetest-dev |
