| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:02 |
ShadowNinja |
hmmmm: responsiveness seems better |
| 00:14 |
hmmmm |
shadowninja, are you on windows? |
| 00:19 |
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| 00:40 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, http://pastebin.com/GCfzceWR |
| 00:40 |
RealBadAngel |
cannot compile that branch |
| 00:42 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: check your last two commits, one of those is responsible |
| 00:42 |
hmmmm |
? |
| 00:42 |
VanessaE |
I just tried to git pull + compile and got the same error as RealBadAngel |
| 00:42 |
hmmmm |
weird.... |
| 00:44 |
VanessaE |
you bwoke it! :'( |
| 00:44 |
hmmmm |
now why does this work for me |
| 00:44 |
hmmmm |
anyway just put that label after END_DEBUG_EXEPTION_HANDLER(errorstream) |
| 00:50 |
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| 00:50 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmm, btw i was reading the whole discussion regarding rotating nodes and how it should be done ideas |
| 00:51 |
RealBadAngel |
answer is any other way is impossible from what i can see in code |
| 00:52 |
RealBadAngel |
if cuboid would be rotated, it will end with rotating lights, shader effects and so on applied to all faces |
| 00:57 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: just checked, commit 6981e3[...] seems to compile okay, so it's just that last one. |
| 00:57 |
hmmmm |
i know exactly what it is... |
| 01:06 |
hmmmm |
celeron, i do not understand the whole "add" and "avg" profiler thing, what do each of them do exactly? |
| 01:06 |
hmmmm |
the code for it is.... quite... odd... |
| 01:46 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, after some testing i think it may be possible on the vertex level |
| 01:47 |
RealBadAngel |
but not all of my code has to be dumped, that lookup table is necesary |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
i haven't looked at it too much, but that's good |
| 01:47 |
RealBadAngel |
http://i.imgur.com/Np9h5xv.jpg |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
whoa cool |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
what is that? |
| 01:47 |
VanessaE |
gah, jpg for a screenshot. I hate you. |
| 01:47 |
VanessaE |
:-) |
| 01:47 |
RealBadAngel |
at vertex level i can easily rotate textures |
| 01:47 |
hmmmm |
ah |
| 01:48 |
hmmmm |
yes, this would be way cleaner and more efficient |
| 01:48 |
hmmmm |
i just got a wacky idea for adding tesselation... |
| 01:48 |
hmmmm |
i kid, i kid. |
| 01:49 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe |
| 01:50 |
RealBadAngel |
i think facedir code will be splitted into two parts, one at vertex level responsible for rotating textures |
| 01:51 |
RealBadAngel |
and 2nd as before responsible for picking faces from lookup table |
| 01:52 |
RealBadAngel |
i will think about it for a while |
| 02:37 |
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| 07:39 |
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| 08:16 |
celeron55 |
http://dev.minetest.net/Network_Protocol |
| 08:17 |
celeron55 |
is that missing anything important? |
| 08:17 |
celeron55 |
hmm, the connection and disconnection sequences should be written down probably |
| 08:27 |
celeron55 |
now there's a bit of that too |
| 09:16 |
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| 15:35 |
JoeA |
Hello, myself and Andy are very interested in helping with development, are there any aspects of the game that need focusing on immediately? |
| 15:36 |
VanessaE |
JoeA: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues?state=open |
| 15:36 |
VanessaE |
start there :-) |
| 15:36 |
JoeA |
Thanks :) |
| 15:39 |
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| 18:09 |
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| 18:15 |
PilzAdam |
thexyz, any ideas about the broken win build? |
| 18:24 |
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| 18:27 |
thexyz |
PilzAdam: define broken |
| 18:28 |
PilzAdam |
https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/4954879 |
| 18:51 |
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| 19:55 |
proller |
works! http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4780 |
| 20:05 |
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| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
it's very annoying to jump up steps with this new movement |
| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
because you have to get the player up to speed and then jump at the right time |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
you can't just press forward and jump because it'll jump mainly up and then you like fall on your face because it's just so dumb |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
this is stupid and i hate minecraft because of it works a bit like this |
| 20:11 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: get back the sane behavior |
| 20:11 |
celeron55 |
i'm not going to use minetest like this |
| 20:11 |
Taoki |
You can walk up stairs |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
... |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
a game is not fun if it is not fun to move around |
| 20:12 |
Taoki |
I don't understand what "jump up steps" means exactly |
| 20:12 |
PilzAdam |
the problem is the 1/4 movement when in air |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
i'm actually quite angry because people screw up things that work well |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
it's not like i hadn't tuned it already a lot |
| 20:13 |
Taoki |
Yeah, air movement is 1/4. Because otherwise it felt very wrong |
| 20:13 |
Taoki |
Old behavior here can be re-enabled from minetest.conf however, if anyone wants it on their server |
| 20:14 |
Taoki |
Air movement feels a lot better to me, I think most people can agree. Not realistic necessarily, just more right |
| 20:14 |
PilzAdam |
if you just hold down jump, you are in air nearly all the time, and moving with 1/4 speed is annoying |
| 20:14 |
celeron55 |
i'm not going to even argue about this |
| 20:14 |
PilzAdam |
wich makes climbing hills a pain |
| 20:15 |
Taoki |
Why would anyone want to accelerate in the air? |
| 20:15 |
celeron55 |
why NOT? |
| 20:15 |
Taoki |
It makes no sense, you walk while on the ground |
| 20:16 |
Taoki |
At least not in a way that this should be noticeable |
| 20:16 |
PilzAdam |
if you climb a hill with holding down jump and collide with a node all the velocity is away and you have to accelerate with 1/4 of the normal acceleration |
| 20:16 |
celeron55 |
i seriously hope you haven't screwed up this so that i am unable to set the good settings back |
| 20:16 |
celeron55 |
because that is what i am doing now |
| 20:16 |
Taoki |
On the old physics it felt very bad, because you could walk on air directly. Gave the feeling physics aren't even completed. I imagined that's something anyone would want to get fixed |
| 20:17 |
PilzAdam |
its maybe right to not accelerat in the air, but its wrong when it comes to gameplay |
| 20:17 |
Taoki |
Just please don't change it upstream. We don't want the ugly movement again :P |
| 20:17 |
PilzAdam |
s/we/I |
| 20:17 |
Taoki |
If really needed, change air acceleration to 1 from 0.5, but please not more |
| 20:18 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: i call what you have done "minecraftifying"; it has no other sane reason |
| 20:18 |
Taoki |
celeron55: I did not do it with any minecraft reference. I just did what felt right |
| 20:18 |
celeron55 |
yes, and i am just about to do what feels right |
| 20:18 |
PilzAdam |
the problem is that its server side, so changing it locally wont effect playing on servers |
| 20:19 |
PilzAdam |
movement_acceleration_air = 2 <- feels like before |
| 20:20 |
* Taoki |
can foresee there will eventually be a split in the development this way... |
| 20:20 |
Taoki |
PilzAdam: Yes, setting that will get the old (and horrible) air acceleration back |
| 20:21 |
PilzAdam |
lower air accelration makes even walking _down_ a hill slower |
| 20:21 |
Taoki |
I hope celeron55 doesn't plan to disable diving in water too. Hopefully nothing will be changed in upstream, I think everyone will agree with the current settings |
| 20:21 |
PilzAdam |
wich really feels wrong |
| 20:21 |
Taoki |
PilzAdam: It shouldn't, because you only accelerate slower, you don't slow down as you walk |
| 20:21 |
PilzAdam |
if you start walking, it is slower |
| 20:22 |
Taoki |
It only changes the fact that while you are in the air, it takes longer to reach maximum walk velicity. If you jump while on the ground, you maintain that velocity |
| 20:22 |
celeron55 |
why does this move as fast in water as walking is? |
| 20:22 |
Taoki |
Yes, but it's not good to start walking in air :P |
| 20:22 |
Taoki |
Moving in water is slower than in ground, but water has friction |
| 20:22 |
celeron55 |
not that i really care (because it isn't annoying), but that's oddish |
| 20:23 |
Taoki |
Anyway: If you really really must increase air acceleration upstream, please don't set it higher than 1 (currently it's 0.5). I don't think a change is needed, but if one must be done that would be a good common ground I believe |
| 20:23 |
celeron55 |
i'm changing all three accelerations back to 4 until somebody is able to show me something that is actually better (or make a vote for such with a majority agreeing) |
| 20:23 |
Taoki |
That's a very bad decision IMO, and will ruin a lot |
| 20:24 |
Taoki |
I suggest leaving them as is until we discuss them |
| 20:24 |
celeron55 |
it doesn't ruin anything; it's the same as before |
| 20:24 |
Taoki |
Yes, and before they were horrible |
| 20:24 |
celeron55 |
you are the one possibly ruining things |
| 20:24 |
Taoki |
This means downgrading them to feel as basic and bad as before |
| 20:24 |
celeron55 |
i know i am getting support from hmmmm and F00 and PilzAdam and many people |
| 20:24 |
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| 20:25 |
Taoki |
If someone supports the old physics, they probably don't support this project advancing, and want movement to stay as ugly as it was |
| 20:25 |
Taoki |
I suport a MineTest that advances and feels better and more modern |
| 20:26 |
Taoki |
You're basically downgrading the physics |
| 20:26 |
PilzAdam |
make the acceleration lower so that you feel it doesnt mean better physics |
| 20:26 |
Taoki |
If you want a vote, I suggest leaving them as they are not and voting on how to change them |
| 20:26 |
Taoki |
PilzAdam: What do you mean? I did, but c55 wants to downgrade |
| 20:27 |
celeron55 |
i'm basically hitting my head in the wall because i can't understand how anyone would consider the clumsy physics of Minecraft good in any way |
| 20:28 |
F00 |
Taoki: That's kind of disingenuous. |
| 20:28 |
PilzAdam |
your movement feels more like RL physics because you have lowered the acceleration so that you really notice the accelration time |
| 20:28 |
F00 |
I'm all for fast move in water/climbing/etc. |
| 20:28 |
Taoki |
celeron55: I am because I can't understand how anyone would want movement to work like that |
| 20:28 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Also, defaults need to be changed in 2 files, if you really insist to. Check where the same values are initialized in the client. |
| 20:28 |
F00 |
I'm not for making nearly all the existing mine shafts into lethal death traps unless they're modified to have 100 ladder blocks at the bottom |
| 20:28 |
Taoki |
Your commit is only half of the thing |
| 20:29 |
PilzAdam |
F00, place slabs there and hold shift |
| 20:29 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Also, change _fast acceleration to 4 too. Using _dast will feel reaaaaally slow :) |
| 20:29 |
F00 |
That's another "bug" that will be fixed. |
| 20:29 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: maybe you could tell where |
| 20:29 |
Taoki |
**fast |
| 20:29 |
F00 |
What I object to is |
| 20:29 |
Taoki |
Fine, I'll help you ruin the changes I made, because I'm such a nice person. Hold on I'll look |
| 20:30 |
F00 |
In 0.4.4, you can make a shaft into an elevator that stops at certain spots just by digging a hole and placing ladders at strategic spots |
| 20:30 |
F00 |
I do not accept sneak/holding fast as a substitute for that because it requires player interaction |
| 20:30 |
F00 |
Which is tedious if it's a very large shaft on a laggy server |
| 20:30 |
PilzAdam |
grabbing a ladder after a 100+ m fall will simply break your arms |
| 20:30 |
Taoki |
celeron55: player.cpp line 61. Blast them there too :P |
| 20:31 |
F00 |
Yes, and carrying 3200 m^3 of cobblestone around in real life will crush you to death |
| 20:31 |
Taoki |
PilzAdam: In reality it would. In MineTest, we must have magical physics |
| 20:31 |
Taoki |
Cuz some people can't agree with MT becoming more modern and using saner physics like most games have |
| 20:31 |
PilzAdam |
if nodes would support friction it would be possible to make ladders instant stop for the player |
| 20:32 |
Taoki |
Yeah, more insane physics :P |
| 20:32 |
F00 |
That seems circular, though. |
| 20:32 |
F00 |
It's quite strange to have water/climbing instantly remove all your vertical inertia |
| 20:32 |
F00 |
But while that's weird, I prefer it to sliding down 100 blocks of ladders after a 100-block fall. |
| 20:33 |
PilzAdam |
I actually dont like this kind of glitches (ladders stopping fall) and Im happy that they are fixed |
| 20:33 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Could you at least test air acceleration 1 or damn... even 1.5? Or in case you set ground acceleration to 4 too (also very bad and I don't think THAT one was any harm), try 2 for air, or 2.5 or something like that. |
| 20:33 |
F00 |
Eh. I see them as bugs that have been adopted and deemed desirable by most of the community. |
| 20:34 |
F00 |
On most servers I've visited, sneak elevators are the norm and they have a bucket worth of water at the bottom or a ladder/rope |
| 20:34 |
PilzAdam |
I dont like a Minetest like this |
| 20:35 |
Taoki |
celeron55: What I mean is, if you don't have anything else to work on now, maybe spend some time playing with these settings. Maybe you can find something you agree on but which doesn't make movement feel as basic and static. I don't think ground acceleration 2 was bad (it feels almost no different), maybe try 1.5 or so for air |
| 20:35 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Also a friendly hint: Don't set fast acceleration to 4, because then accelerating and decelerating in _fast mode will feel slow. And from what I see you want all accelerations to be fast. |
| 20:36 |
F00 |
As I mentioned yesterday, since the walk accel/decel was multiplied by BS twice, it actually used to be 40, not 4. |
| 20:36 |
Taoki |
F00: Yeah, all settings are * BS (not sure what that means exactly though) |
| 20:38 |
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| 20:38 |
F00 |
The motivation behind it is explained in constants.h:65 |
| 20:38 |
F00 |
But anyhow, it's 10 and its accidental double usage is why accel/decel in 0.4.4 and earlier releases is 40, not 4 |
| 20:38 |
F00 |
Which is why a value an order of magnitude less feels so tiny |
| 20:38 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Anyway, let me know if you have more questions about how these work. Didn't mean to get pissed at you changing them, but I just ask to please test them a bit than just setting everything the old way. Maybe you can find something nice that you like as well |
| 20:39 |
Taoki |
The point of lower air acceleration isn't to make movement in the air harder. But to remove that feeling that you are walking on air like on the ground, cuz it feels very wrong. If a higher air accel can prevent that feel, I'm ok with it |
| 20:39 |
Taoki |
Also, ground accel 2 should really be ok and not bother anyone |
| 20:40 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, also change the settings in minetest.conf.example |
| 20:40 |
F00 |
My thinking is this: Nobody will disagree that fast move in liquids and when climbing is a good thing. In fact, I bet it will cause ladders/ropes to replace sneak elevators in most instances. |
| 20:40 |
Taoki |
Leave them there at least :P |
| 20:40 |
F00 |
However, most of the other parts of the patch come down to taste. |
| 20:41 |
F00 |
I personally prefer high air control and massively fast accel/decel, which apparently feels cartoony and wrong to others |
| 20:41 |
Taoki |
F00: Best thing then is to find the most common settings for everyone. I don't want hugely slow acceleration either, but just enough so you don't feel like your speed is set directly when you move |
| 20:41 |
Taoki |
As in, have the player feel he IS accelerating at all |
| 20:42 |
Taoki |
An acceleration of 4 does not show this. Before I looked at the code, I didn't even KNOW horizontal acceleration existed. I thought pressing forward just moves you in that direction over a fixed pattern |
| 20:42 |
F00 |
Well, yeah |
| 20:42 |
PilzAdam |
Im fine with: default = 3; air = 2; fast = 20 |
| 20:42 |
F00 |
Because it's 40/s, you hit 4/s in 0.1s |
| 20:43 |
Taoki |
PilzAdam: Sounds more ok to me than setting them all to 4, yes. |
| 20:43 |
Taoki |
Though for fast, something like 8 or 10 is good, so you still feel a little bit of acceleration there too |
| 20:43 |
Taoki |
Again, just enough so you can feel you ARE accelerating at all |
| 20:43 |
PilzAdam |
fast should be definetly be that high, because its God mode and God doesnt need acceleration |
| 20:44 |
Taoki |
Well, ok. I don't care about acceleration with _fast that much. Though I'd still encourage leaving just a little bit so there is some smoothing for a good feel |
| 20:44 |
Taoki |
Even if you only feel it for 5 or so frames |
| 20:45 |
Taoki |
Try 10 or 15 too or such |
| 20:45 |
F00 |
One of the big things I object to is the different decel rate between normal and fast move |
| 20:45 |
F00 |
Although I know why that happens, code-wise |
| 20:45 |
Taoki |
F00: Yes, can't be helped. Unless we also remove acceleration entirely in non-fast mode |
| 20:45 |
F00 |
Or have deceleration be a constant except when fast and fly are enabled. |
| 20:46 |
PilzAdam |
fast = 10 is ok too |
| 20:46 |
Taoki |
PilzAdam: Sounds great to me then |
| 20:46 |
PilzAdam |
so: (3,2,10) is my suggestion |
| 20:46 |
F00 |
I don't much care for accelerating for multiple seconds. |
| 20:46 |
PilzAdam |
^ celeron55 (if you still care) |
| 20:46 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Can you try the values PilzAdam suggested? default 3m air 2, fast 10? |
| 20:46 |
F00 |
Consider the case of traversing a hill |
| 20:46 |
F00 |
Where you repeatedly whack into rising terrain and need to re-accel |
| 20:47 |
Taoki |
I'd still say at most 1.5 fir air, but 2 is certainly better than 4 |
| 20:47 |
F00 |
*40 |
| 20:48 |
PilzAdam |
my suggestion doesnt really differ from the former values except a bit of the feeling of acceleration |
| 20:48 |
Taoki |
yeah, that feeling is what I mean |
| 20:49 |
Taoki |
Anyway, at least the code is there, so anyone can get the old (or new) settings on their server. Making them configurable was one point, and this proves useful |
| 20:49 |
PilzAdam |
most people will use default values |
| 20:49 |
Taoki |
yeah. Defaults should be somewhere in the middle |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
in other news: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commits/menubackground |
| 20:50 |
Taoki |
eg: I say 0.5, c55 says 4, you say 2. So something around 2 sounds reasonable for everyone |
| 20:50 |
celeron55 |
do people approve this one |
| 20:51 |
Taoki |
celeron55: That is some good news at least. Any screenshots? Textured menus sound really nice |
| 20:51 |
celeron55 |
ehm... that is not what it is |
| 20:51 |
Taoki |
<sarcasm>Let's ust make sure the texture isn't too pixelated, else we'd be copying MineCraft</sarcasm> |
| 20:51 |
Taoki |
Ah.. |
| 20:52 |
Taoki |
Says something about menu background images |
| 20:52 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, I dont like the filter |
| 20:52 |
Taoki |
Any screenshots tho? |
| 20:52 |
PilzAdam |
just take the background of the worlds game that is selected in the world list |
| 20:53 |
celeron55 |
i'd kind of like it if games could "brand" themselves better, in addition to having a better background images |
| 20:53 |
celeron55 |
-a |
| 20:53 |
PilzAdam |
I mean, I *really* dont like the filter |
| 20:54 |
proller |
liquid want to merge! https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/482 |
| 20:54 |
PilzAdam |
seperating the games isnt the right way |
| 20:54 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: ack |
| 20:54 |
* celeron55 |
is awaiting more opinions until deciding on anything |
| 20:54 |
RealBadAngel |
http://i.imgur.com/pghAGlG.png |
| 20:54 |
PilzAdam |
(sorting the full list would be ok) |
| 20:55 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Oh, now I see what it does. Different background for each MineTest game. That's a perfect idea! |
| 20:55 |
RealBadAngel |
hi all. menu background were possible before, but hard to scale |
| 20:55 |
Taoki |
Default background might be too pixelated, but the idea and system are excellent |
| 20:55 |
RealBadAngel |
ive made this months ago |
| 20:56 |
Taoki |
Gonna test various physics and suggest them for now, see if I can find anything good enough |
| 20:57 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, im thinkin now where to put the code for rotating tiles (withot transform stuff added to texture name) |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
http://ompldr.org/vaGg2dQ/tscrot-2013-02-15_22-56-54.png |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
that should explain it somewhat |
| 20:57 |
Taoki |
Hmm... looks good |
| 20:58 |
celeron55 |
http://ompldr.org/vaGg2dw/tscrot-2013-02-15_22-57-56.png |
| 20:58 |
celeron55 |
i'm not sure about the world list filtering though |
| 20:58 |
Taoki |
I like |
| 20:59 |
PilzAdam |
Id suggest this as a background for default (warning, large): https://raw.github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/816594ac57dadcc53412c3f4185a5ad46d2344ea/textures/base/pack/menubg.png |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
isn't that quite dull? |
| 21:00 |
PilzAdam |
well, its a background |
| 21:00 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Regarding the accelerations, I have one more wish: Please test the values PilzAdam suggested (default = 3, air = 2, fast = 10). I tried them out, and it removes that ugly feeling with air acceleration, while keeing it controlled well enough. If you can put those upstream, I won't have reasons to complain about the default physics again... they're good for me |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
this isn't call of duty or mafia 2 anyways |
| 21:01 |
PilzAdam |
I will take it for PilzTest if you dont like it |
| 21:01 |
celeron55 |
(i'm always wondering why new games lack all color) |
| 21:01 |
PilzAdam |
its not that I insist on using this |
| 21:01 |
RealBadAngel |
http://i.imgur.com/aGL96cQ.png |
| 21:02 |
RealBadAngel |
i made quite nice wallpaper a while ago |
| 21:02 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, that is called "Fake" |
| 21:02 |
Taoki |
RealBadAngel: That's a MineTest screenshot from the fairly close future ;) |
| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: a final image isn't something i want to choose now; i just made that as a prototype for the idea so that we can know where to aim for |
| 21:02 |
PilzAdam |
sure |
| 21:02 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, this is called "Wallpaper" |
| 21:02 |
RealBadAngel |
:P |
| 21:03 |
PilzAdam |
btw: Terasology does look like this |
| 21:03 |
PilzAdam |
(a bit more cartoon-ish) |
| 21:03 |
Taoki |
celeron55: I'm not sure if the branch does this already. But what I'd consider for each world is taking a screenshot before the player exists, and using that as the background next time you select it |
| 21:03 |
RealBadAngel |
no, Minetest looks like this :P |
| 21:03 |
celeron55 |
maybe i should make a game where you can't see anything from all the blur and lense flare |
| 21:03 |
celeron55 |
everybody would be like "OMG OMG COOL GFX" |
| 21:03 |
Taoki |
Same way you take screenshots with F12, but automatically when you quit. And make that a background for the given world |
| 21:04 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Not THAT exaggerrated, but I'm hoping we will have that too :) |
| 21:04 |
Taoki |
At least it couldn't be accused of copying MineCraft |
| 21:04 |
F00 |
celeron55: Don't forget the extreme bloom |
| 21:04 |
celeron55 |
F00: yeah i forgot that word |
| 21:04 |
Taoki |
^ yes yes |
| 21:04 |
RealBadAngel |
http://i.imgur.com/eIg5Yyq.png |
| 21:04 |
F00 |
Turning around should make your screen look like you put a bunch of watercolour paints in a blender |
| 21:09 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, shall i apply facedir here https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/blob/master/src/mapblock_mesh.cpp#L381 or maybe here with NDT_NORMAL case: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/blob/master/src/content_mapblock.cpp#L150 ? |
| 21:09 |
RealBadAngel |
what do you think? |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
eh |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
of course not in mapblock_mesh_generate_special |
| 21:11 |
celeron55 |
getNodeVertexDirs or makeFastFace or something like that |
| 21:11 |
celeron55 |
if somebody feels like that menu background stuff needs to go upstream, feel free to take it and do whatever to it |
| 21:11 |
RealBadAngel |
i was thinkin bout makeFastFace too |
| 21:11 |
RealBadAngel |
i like the idea, was asking you for it half year ago :) |
| 21:12 |
RealBadAngel |
not to mention that game could play menu_default.ogg while in menu |
| 21:12 |
RealBadAngel |
that would be somethin really cool |
| 21:14 |
RealBadAngel |
or selected game/menu_default.ogg |
| 21:16 |
|
Taoki joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:21 |
|
ffoxin joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:21 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: i pushed those values for now |
| 21:21 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Was just checking them out. Thanks for considering my suggestion. If they don't go higher, I'm ok with those being the defaults |
| 21:21 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, i think i found nice place to transform tile vertices: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/blob/master/src/mapblock_mesh.cpp#L723 |
| 21:22 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: i think you should try something like such that some time after jumping it would be possible to control the player with high acceleration |
| 21:22 |
RealBadAngel |
right before smooth lighting is applied |
| 21:23 |
RealBadAngel |
i do have here all i need, needed tile and its vertices |
| 21:23 |
Taoki |
Yeah, those defaults feel very good now. |
| 21:24 |
Taoki |
Might look into ways to improve this again if I poke into the physics. But I'm making plans for other areas and features otherwise |
| 21:24 |
PilzAdam |
Taoki, the long "sliding" effect after fast move is reduced a lot |
| 21:25 |
RealBadAngel |
Taoki, let folks play with it for a while and then listen to suggestions they may have |
| 21:25 |
Taoki |
PilzAdam: Normal move acceleration was increased a bit, so that's normal |
| 21:26 |
Taoki |
RealBadAngel: Yeah. I'm ok with other suggestions, just really wouldn't have wanted the exact same old values back. Current ones are good since they should feel ok for those who liked the old movement too |
| 21:26 |
Taoki |
As in, work close to the same way, but also give that feeling of being a bit more modern |
| 21:26 |
celeron55 |
does someoone have some insights to this? < proller> liquid want to merge! https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/482 |
| 21:26 |
Taoki |
But for now, the physics feel fine here... I think anyone else can agree. Would be good to let them be and focus on other important features |
| 21:27 |
Taoki |
celeron55: What does it do exactly? The description ain't too clear |
| 21:27 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, it works quite nice now, played for half an hour, filled some caves with water |
| 21:27 |
RealBadAngel |
Taoki, it applies finite liquids |
| 21:28 |
proller |
celeron55, PilzAdam looks too |
| 21:28 |
Taoki |
What's finite liquids exactly tho? |
| 21:28 |
RealBadAngel |
same as IRL |
| 21:28 |
RealBadAngel |
make pump and pump out the ocean or a lake ;) |
| 21:28 |
Taoki |
Kinda getting it now, but still not sure -exactly- what it does |
| 21:29 |
Taoki |
Does it make water node sources get smaller as the fluid flows? |
| 21:29 |
RealBadAngel |
when you will place water on a hill it will flow down |
| 21:29 |
proller |
Taoki, water is not 4d marmalade, its water 8) |
| 21:29 |
Taoki |
RealBadAngel: Doesn't that happen already? |
| 21:29 |
RealBadAngel |
no |
| 21:30 |
RealBadAngel |
it means after the while water will be down there |
| 21:30 |
* Taoki |
scratches head |
| 21:30 |
RealBadAngel |
not where you have placed it |
| 21:30 |
proller |
but there is way ro place infinity source block, and it will floooood all around |
| 21:30 |
Taoki |
If I place a water source on a hill, water does flow down like in MineCraft |
| 21:30 |
Taoki |
ah. So the water -source- gets moved? |
| 21:31 |
RealBadAngel |
not source |
| 21:31 |
Taoki |
It creates additional water sources where water piles up then? |
| 21:31 |
RealBadAngel |
water itself, there are no infinite sources |
| 21:31 |
Taoki |
*flowing water piles up |
| 21:31 |
Taoki |
Ok. I still don't get it as hard as I try :P |
| 21:31 |
RealBadAngel |
theres water volume |
| 21:32 |
Taoki |
Currently, if you place a water node somewhere, that will stay there as still water while generating flowing water around itself. What changes from that? |
| 21:32 |
RealBadAngel |
when you place full water volume in one node wide hole it will fill it up |
| 21:32 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: this is one thing that proves you are SO stuck in MC |
| 21:32 |
Taoki |
Ugh! It's not MC, I just don't understand what the patch does :P |
| 21:33 |
RealBadAngel |
when you increase the hole to be 2x2 wide, each will hold 1/4th of max volume |
| 21:33 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: it is 8) |
| 21:33 |
Taoki |
This IS one of the many things I believe can be improved compared to MC. |
| 21:34 |
hmmmm |
indeed, i vouch |
| 21:34 |
Taoki |
RealBadAngel: Ok, now it's making a bit of sense. So if I dig a hole and place a water node in it, then dig another hole next to it, both holes will then have what could be called a "water slab"? |
| 21:34 |
RealBadAngel |
yes |
| 21:34 |
hmmmm |
from what it looks like offhand, it seems that at least 70% of people hate the new physics |
| 21:34 |
Taoki |
Finally I get it :) That's a great idea, totally up for it |
| 21:34 |
hmmmm |
what they like is fast move in water and up ladders |
| 21:35 |
RealBadAngel |
and i like gravity settings |
| 21:35 |
Taoki |
hmmmm: The default values were just changed in GIT, and should not give anyone a reason to hate the new physics |
| 21:35 |
Taoki |
They feel much more like the old ones now |
| 21:35 |
hmmmm |
i hope so.. |
| 21:35 |
RealBadAngel |
but imho this should depend on height which could be used in near core biomes, aether or space biomes |
| 21:35 |
PilzAdam |
proller, it works quite nice compared to the version I tested before |
| 21:36 |
Taoki |
I liked the new ones, but since many people don't this is a common ground I think everyone will find fine |
| 21:36 |
Taoki |
Anyway, if the finite water is ready, I'd love to see what upstream |
| 21:36 |
Taoki |
But I can imagine many ways in which it could go wrong |
| 21:36 |
F00 |
Aside from taste stuff, there are still legitimate bugs - like shooting tens blocks off the top of a ladder when fast moving up it |
| 21:37 |
Taoki |
That's not a bug, it's just how it works... can't he helped |
| 21:37 |
Taoki |
**be |
| 21:39 |
celeron55 |
it is either a bug or a lack of feature |
| 21:40 |
celeron55 |
also, as i use e for descending, it is odd to go in water with fast_move on but not holding e |
| 21:40 |
celeron55 |
it goes fast in that case |
| 21:40 |
celeron55 |
that at least is a bug |
| 21:40 |
Taoki |
No, it's intentional |
| 21:41 |
Taoki |
When aux1_descends is 1, e is used to go down. So it can't be used as the Fast button too. Therefore, if fast_move is enabled, fast must be automatic in water and on ladders |
| 21:41 |
celeron55 |
but when i play, i always have fast_move on |
| 21:41 |
Taoki |
There's no logical way around that, since E takes the function of fast and makes it "go down" |
| 21:41 |
Taoki |
yeah, |
| 21:42 |
celeron55 |
and expect the game to behave in these ways: when i am not flying, the player goes fast when i press e, and when i fly, the player goes always fast |
| 21:42 |
celeron55 |
in that sense, going in water is equal to walking on ground and not equal to going in air |
| 21:42 |
Taoki |
That part should work fine |
| 21:42 |
celeron55 |
it should descend from shift when in water, even with e being descend when flying |
| 21:42 |
celeron55 |
and go fast by 'e' |
| 21:43 |
celeron55 |
i belive this is how everyone else using aux1_descends wants the game to work |
| 21:43 |
Taoki |
That part can be fixed. Although that would be confusing... you descend with E in air but with Shift on ladders and in water |
| 21:43 |
Taoki |
It is however something I can fix, yes |
| 21:44 |
Taoki |
So aux1_descends only affects free_move |
| 21:44 |
celeron55 |
i don't know, but going automatically fast in water when not flying is just wrong |
| 21:44 |
Taoki |
But I think a lot of people will find that confusing |
| 21:44 |
Taoki |
My suggestion would be not having aux1_descends at all. But a lot of people are used to that, so they wouldn't like it |
| 21:44 |
F00 |
Maybe the backstory is that the player character is half human, half speedboat |
| 21:44 |
Taoki |
Using shift to go down anytime is logical |
| 21:44 |
Taoki |
:) |
| 21:45 |
proller |
also new masterserver with auto announce ready for test https://github.com/proller/minetest/tree/masterserver |
| 21:45 |
Taoki |
But yeah, we should find a good way to fix this problem. Automatically going fast in water is wrong, but aux1_descends takes the E button's function |
| 21:46 |
celeron55 |
well, going fast down could be e+shift 8) |
| 21:46 |
Taoki |
proller: Sweet! |
| 21:46 |
celeron55 |
in ladders |
| 21:46 |
Taoki |
hmmm... |
| 21:46 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Erm, it already is when aux1_descends is not enabled |
| 21:46 |
celeron55 |
it's weird as hell from a programming standpoint, but it still could fit human's intuition when playing 8D |
| 21:47 |
Taoki |
celeron55: When aux1_descends is off, you swim normally, including up and down. Holding e causes you to swim fast, and e + space or e + shift to sink or float fast too |
| 21:47 |
Taoki |
The problem is that this option gives E 2 functions. IMO aux1_descends should be removed, but would it hurt people who are too used to it? |
| 21:47 |
celeron55 |
of course it would, including me |
| 21:48 |
Taoki |
ok. Only possibility then is to let shift descend in water and on ladders regardless. And aux1_descends only influences free_move then |
| 21:48 |
Taoki |
It will be confusing for many, but best that can be done |
| 21:49 |
Taoki |
Note that it's the same situation on ladders, now that fast_move can be used there. So again, even if you have aux1_descends, you go down with Shift on ladders. If that's ok I can get around to it |
| 21:50 |
Taoki |
celeron55: ^ Do you agree with that happening in case of ladder movement? |
| 21:52 |
celeron55 |
umm... e should descend in ladders, definitely |
| 21:53 |
Taoki |
ok. Can't fix fast movement being always active on them in that case, as long as e is used to descend. So not sure what to do |
| 21:53 |
celeron55 |
well, shift+e could then be fast descending |
| 21:53 |
Taoki |
Third option would be to make fast_move on ladders and water impossible when aux1_descends. But then people who have this can't use fast movement there at all |
| 21:53 |
celeron55 |
it just flips the speed modifier |
| 21:53 |
Taoki |
That is an idea |
| 21:54 |
Taoki |
And space + e fast climb |
| 21:54 |
Taoki |
Erm no, that wouldn't work out |
| 21:54 |
Taoki |
Yeah... the problem also exists for climbing |
| 21:55 |
Taoki |
Shift would have to act as the Fast button in that case. But that would be a bit weird |
| 21:55 |
proller |
celeron55, its possible to host masterserver at servers.minetest.net ? |
| 21:55 |
celeron55 |
well... guess shift can be the speed modifier for that too |
| 21:55 |
Taoki |
celeron55: What if aux1_descends simply flips the Shift and E keys entirely? |
| 21:56 |
Taoki |
That would make most sense I think |
| 21:56 |
celeron55 |
that doesn't work, because shift has been sneaking for a long time |
| 21:56 |
Taoki |
ok |
| 21:56 |
celeron55 |
the whole point of aux1_descends is to have the old controls that all old farts are used to |
| 21:56 |
Taoki |
Then E would mean fast on ground, and Shift would mean fast in water and on ladders. Will be pretty confusing, but it's one of the few options |
| 21:57 |
Taoki |
It's probably what I will go for then, since it's the most gentle possibility |
| 21:58 |
celeron55 |
proller: your water thing just managed to completely jam a singleplayer server |
| 21:58 |
Taoki |
Might get around to it tomorrow or in the next days if not tonight |
| 21:58 |
celeron55 |
i dug a hole into a cave under a lake 8) |
| 21:58 |
proller |
its wet 8) |
| 21:59 |
Taoki |
BTW, another thing about the water patch: Can you make it so that if water flows into a hole, a water source slowly builds up in there? |
| 21:59 |
Taoki |
That would make a lot of sense with your change |
| 21:59 |
Taoki |
Also, this sounds like we might be able to remove the use of offseting water top texture by 2 pixels |
| 21:59 |
Taoki |
Like shaders do currently |
| 22:00 |
Taoki |
Since I understand the height of a water node will mean its quantity |
| 22:00 |
proller |
liquid_relax = 1 -- will restore source blocks |
| 22:00 |
celeron55 |
even just making fast vertical moving not possible would be better; currently i basically die if i go to a ladder |
| 22:00 |
proller |
but water be not finite |
| 22:00 |
Taoki |
ok |
| 22:00 |
celeron55 |
8) |
| 22:01 |
Taoki |
At the same time, if a water source flows too much, it should disappear, as the point where it flows appears. Basically get transferred there |
| 22:01 |
proller |
but much better than now |
| 22:01 |
Taoki |
Say you put a water source on a hill, and it flows into a hole. The water node on the hill will depleat as a new one(s) are built where the flowing takes place |
| 22:01 |
sfan5 |
that'd make sense |
| 22:01 |
Taoki |
If there's no hole for water to build in, then the water source disappears without filling anything |
| 22:02 |
Taoki |
Like if it spills over a plain |
| 22:02 |
sfan5 |
that makes less sense to me |
| 22:02 |
sfan5 |
it shouldn't completly disappear |
| 22:03 |
Taoki |
sfan5: It's like throwing a bucket of water. If you throw it on the ground, that water is as good as gone. If you throw it in a hole, that hole gets filled |
| 22:03 |
proller |
in first one water node will drop down |
| 22:03 |
Taoki |
I assume MineTest will never support dirt nodes containing water in themselves, so each node can have a wetness level |
| 22:04 |
celeron55 |
proller: your code is very screwed up; this jams all the time |
| 22:04 |
Taoki |
So that dirt or sand can absorb water. That would be fun but prolly VERY difficult to do |
| 22:04 |
celeron55 |
i hope nobody accidentally merges it upstream at this state |
| 22:04 |
Taoki |
If it's buggy I agree. The feature is still great otherwise |
| 22:04 |
F00 |
celeron55: Why do you have your repo set up the way you do? |
| 22:04 |
sfan5 |
Taoki: imagine a swimming pool, blocks would need a propety water_drains_into_block = <bool> |
| 22:04 |
* F00 |
much prefers each dev to only have write access to their own repo |
| 22:04 |
celeron55 |
i have some experience of finite water; it was the first kind of water i tried to implement in minetest |
| 22:05 |
celeron55 |
i must say it is fucking hard to do anything that scales without basically consuming infinite resources |
| 22:05 |
Taoki |
I can imagine |
| 22:05 |
celeron55 |
so i don't really expect this to ever become actually usable |
| 22:05 |
celeron55 |
if it becomes, then it's fine; but anyways |
| 22:05 |
Taoki |
If it was easy MC would have had it too. AAAAND, we would have been copying it now so this feature would have been bad :3 |
| 22:06 |
Taoki |
So thank god MineCraft doesn't have this hehe |
| 22:06 |
sfan5 |
^ yep |
| 22:06 |
proller |
celeron55, but now it is adjustable and disabled by default |
| 22:07 |
sfan5 |
i wouldn't like finite water by default |
| 22:07 |
Taoki |
proller: Does flowing water work well with this? eg: Does the height of flowing water adjust itself to the size of the blocks? |
| 22:07 |
Taoki |
I would like it :) |
| 22:07 |
celeron55 |
proller: how do you limit infinitely large operations in your code? |
| 22:07 |
celeron55 |
if i attempt to drain a large lake, what happens? |
| 22:07 |
proller |
celeron55, queue like in current code |
| 22:08 |
hmmmm |
oh dear god |
| 22:08 |
proller |
they will slowly drain |
| 22:08 |
hmmmm |
a new way to kill everybody's cpu |
| 22:08 |
celeron55 |
that does not sound like a good idea |
| 22:08 |
celeron55 |
nor anything that would actually work |
| 22:08 |
Taoki |
proller: BTW. Can your change be made so that "water source" and "flowing water" can become the same thing, and everything is a water node? Thgat could be kind of useful and more correct |
| 22:09 |
Taoki |
So placing a water source block on the ground causes more of it to appear as it spills, as the original decreases. And of course the surfaces to connect in order to still LOOK like flowing water does now |
| 22:09 |
proller |
i have tested it in more than new 100 worlds |
| 22:09 |
celeron55 |
it needs something to very quickly and in a reasonably well cached way decide that some body of water is too large to be handled finitely and stick to it efficiently |
| 22:09 |
Taoki |
But in reality, have everything be water sources / nodes |
| 22:09 |
celeron55 |
there is no other way of making it handleable |
| 22:09 |
hmmmm |
why are people making such huge changes and additions to minetest all of a sudden |
| 22:09 |
hmmmm |
and someone just added in a JSON library |
| 22:10 |
Taoki |
hmmmm: Maybe because it's gettind more devs and more attention. It's a great thing that this is happening at last :) |
| 22:10 |
hmmmm |
this is not good |
| 22:10 |
Taoki |
It's a very alive project... other FOSS projects are not as lucky |
| 22:10 |
hmmmm |
it's going in every single direction possible |
| 22:10 |
hmmmm |
if we accept everybody's contributions, we'll probably have 300 dependencies |
| 22:10 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: i approved json; it is a reasonable counterpart to curl - but your concern is very valid and i have been seeing it too |
| 22:10 |
Taoki |
Contributions that add new dependencies are a different story |
| 22:11 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: note that the json lib can hang around in minetest's repo; it's not that bad that way |
| 22:12 |
hmmmm |
now why do we need json exactly |
| 22:12 |
Taoki |
That is a good question |
| 22:12 |
* Taoki |
is still wondering how the sqlite vs leveldb story is goind too |
| 22:12 |
hmmmm |
i mean i don't think we should reinvent the wheel, but we shouldn't add in an entire library for a single feature that only makes use of a small subset of it |
| 22:12 |
F00 |
hmmmm: Minetest won't be complete until it's integrated an httpd and a smtpd |
| 22:13 |
Taoki |
I agree there |
| 22:13 |
F00 |
As well as maybe a PDF reader |
| 22:13 |
Taoki |
I say we make MineTest an operating system! |
| 22:13 |
ShadowNinja |
don't forget sshd! |
| 22:14 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: saying "subset of json" is quite... ehm... interesting, as json is so small you basically always end up using everything from it |
| 22:14 |
Taoki |
If someone wants to add extra libs though, I have a sweet suggestion: Polyvox |
| 22:14 |
Taoki |
(not really though :P ) |
| 22:15 |
Taoki |
Not cuz it would be bad, but it would prolly be a huge effort to switch the voxel system to Polyvix |
| 22:15 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: but indeed using json for one new feature and nothing else is a bit silly |
| 22:15 |
Taoki |
**polyvox |
| 22:16 |
celeron55 |
we could rule that minetest will do all future communication to outside things that do not use the minetest protocol by using json; that would make it reasonable-ish |
| 22:17 |
celeron55 |
that includes in-game mod repositories and whatever |
| 22:17 |
Taoki |
That would rock |
| 22:17 |
Taoki |
If anyone here plays MegaGlest by chance, they have a sweet mod repository system built-in to the default menu. MineTest could surely use one too |
| 22:18 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: it's Minetest, not MineTest |
| 22:18 |
celeron55 |
we need a bot here to say that |
| 22:18 |
Taoki |
right |
| 22:18 |
sfan5 |
i can give you a bot, but not a bot that does that exact thing |
| 22:18 |
Taoki |
BTW: Is Minetest going to be the final name? Or maybe there will be another once more of it is ready? |
| 22:19 |
Taoki |
It does sound kind of beta-ish |
| 22:19 |
Jordach |
FreeMines? |
| 22:19 |
Taoki |
Would take some thinking |
| 22:20 |
Taoki |
CeleronCraft :D |
| 22:20 |
PilzAdam |
there are many forum threads about this topic |
| 22:20 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: it isn't probably going to change until someone makes a succesful fork, or until something else than minetest_game gets most popular and minetest+that_one starts to get published instead of minetest+minetest_game |
| 22:20 |
sfan5 |
i just found this: http://code.google.com/p/jslibs/ |
| 22:20 |
sfan5 |
it has nearly any library used by minetest |
| 22:20 |
Taoki |
Makes sense |
| 22:21 |
Taoki |
Errrm... javascript? Sounds like we'd be duplicating what we already have with LUA |
| 22:21 |
celeron55 |
it's Lua, not LUA |
| 22:21 |
Taoki |
The times I make that mistake xD |
| 22:22 |
celeron55 |
taOKI |
| 22:22 |
Taoki |
:) |
| 22:24 |
hmmmm |
so what does taoki mean |
| 22:24 |
hmmmm |
is that some kind of hawaiian greeting |
| 22:24 |
Taoki |
Nothing exactly. Just a name that sorta came to mind, when I was still new to the internet |
| 22:25 |
celeron55 |
it sounds japanese |
| 22:25 |
Jordach |
chitchat -> #minetest |
| 22:25 |
hmmmm |
so let me understand this exactly |
| 22:26 |
celeron55 |
apparently it's some kind of word or name in french too |
| 22:26 |
celeron55 |
Jordach: oops |
| 22:26 |
hmmmm |
the point of this 'Masterserver' branch is to add name and description to the serverlist |
| 22:26 |
PilzAdam |
Jordach, this conversation is completly relevant for development of Minetest |
| 22:26 |
sfan5 |
minetest developers are allowed to go offtopic once a day ;) |
| 22:27 |
Taoki |
xD |
| 22:29 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: it is to add a feature to the server to be able to announce itself to the public server list |
| 22:29 |
hmmmm |
i see |
| 22:29 |
hmmmm |
ahh |
| 22:29 |
hmmmm |
that makes sense, i was reading the commits upside down |
| 22:29 |
celeron55 |
json kind of makes sense in that because such web backends tend to easily support it |
| 22:30 |
hmmmm |
dumb.. more recent events should be at the top of the page |
| 22:30 |
sfan5 |
it would be nice if you could easily add new mod languages to minetest, we could have init.lua,init.js,init.sq,init.py,init.pl and maybe even init.[so;dll:dylib] |
| 22:30 |
hmmmm |
yeah, now that i'm looking at it more it's making sense |
| 22:30 |
hmmmm |
now what about the authentication |
| 22:30 |
hmmmm |
how's that fitting in |
| 22:30 |
Jordach |
minetest.ru could be the account holster |
| 22:30 |
sfan5 |
*hoster |
| 22:30 |
Jordach |
(considering the uptime is 100%) |
| 22:31 |
hmmmm |
should be somewhere trusted |
| 22:31 |
sfan5 |
what about gpg-signing? |
| 22:31 |
hmmmm |
well i mean |
| 22:31 |
hmmmm |
maybe |
| 22:31 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: this is pretty much copycatting openttd; i don't think it has any kind of authentication other than probably rate and ip limiting |
| 22:31 |
hmmmm |
i just don't think it's good for rogue servers to add themselves on the list with malicious lua mods |
| 22:32 |
hmmmm |
or exploit the clients |
| 22:32 |
celeron55 |
the server list of openttd never seems to have problems while the game freely announces to it |
| 22:32 |
hmmmm |
well, i don't know, can client-side lua be a security problem, or no? |
| 22:32 |
hmmmm |
there's still the problem with the greatly increased surface area of attack |
| 22:32 |
celeron55 |
clients don't run any lua code at the moment |
| 22:33 |
hmmmm |
could've sworn they did.. must be going bonkers |
| 22:33 |
hmmmm |
someone mentioned client-side lua at some point |
| 22:33 |
celeron55 |
but a server could possibly attack using crafted images, models or exploiting some buffer overflow or similar stuff in the protocol |
| 22:33 |
hmmmm |
right |
| 22:33 |
hmmmm |
which is what i'm afraid of |
| 22:33 |
celeron55 |
the attack surface is very large |
| 22:33 |
ShadowNinja |
Jeija has a proof of concept for client-side Lua mods |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
it's similar to web browsers; almost impossible to keep perfect track of |
| 22:34 |
sfan5 |
think the other way 'round: clients exploting servers |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
the server has much smaller attack surface |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
it doesn't open images or models |
| 22:34 |
hmmmm |
so like |
| 22:34 |
sfan5 |
the protocol? |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
altough it runs mods that can have exploits |
| 22:35 |
celeron55 |
so it could be larger too... |
| 22:35 |
hmmmm |
yeah but that needs to be done at the server admin's beheast |
| 22:35 |
hmmmm |
what's the verdict? do we add in something to prevent rogue servers from spamming/advertising on the announce list? |
| 22:36 |
hmmmm |
like maybe they apply for their server to be registered |
| 22:36 |
celeron55 |
there is nothing we can do |
| 22:36 |
hmmmm |
and if we get reports from them we remove it ourselves |
| 22:36 |
celeron55 |
well, except registration; but it doesn't really help either and very much is a pain in the ass for legitimate use |
| 22:36 |
hmmmm |
if minetest gets big and lots of people use it, this really might be a problem in the future |
| 22:37 |
hmmmm |
i can see a LandMine paying somebody to write up an exploit for libpng or whatever and then hosting this rogue server |
| 22:38 |
ShadowNinja |
imo a registration requirement should be an option for server lists to impose |
| 22:39 |
celeron55 |
there'll likely be mostly just one server list that everyone uses; it's not like people would care to change the default one |
| 22:39 |
hmmmm |
i don't think there are going to be many server announcers aside from the official one, honestly.. |
| 22:40 |
ShadowNinja |
good point |
| 22:40 |
ShadowNinja |
I think the official one should have some registration |
| 22:40 |
ShadowNinja |
just not anything to hard to get into |
| 22:41 |
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| 22:41 |
celeron55 |
what's the point of automatic announcement then? |
| 22:41 |
celeron55 |
and such registration doesn't keep anyone out who wants to exploit things |
| 22:42 |
celeron55 |
he'll just register 20 accounts and switches between those |
| 22:42 |
hmmmm |
true.. |
| 22:43 |
sfan5 |
yeah |
| 22:45 |
celeron55 |
so i think it will either be done fully openly announceable or we will have a website with a non-automated server list (somewhat similar to current servers.minetest.ru) |
| 22:46 |
Taoki |
BTW. Is it possible / will it be possible for different minetest games to have their own versions of minetest.conf? |
| 22:50 |
celeron55 |
not possible; could possibly made possible if we can figure out a good way of doing it |
| 22:51 |
celeron55 |
it definitely is possible to move settings to the game's game.conf, but some kind of a settings overlay thing needs much more consideration |
| 22:55 |
Taoki |
Ah, so there is a game.conf already |
| 22:56 |
Taoki |
Wondering about things like each game having its own player physics, with the new system |
| 22:56 |
Taoki |
But that means it should be possible |
| 23:00 |
celeron55 |
not directly; game.conf has nothing to do with the global settings |
| 23:00 |
Taoki |
ah |
| 23:09 |
proller |
celeron55, in luquid i can make: if queue |
| 23:10 |
proller |
> 5000 -> force to infinite without leveling |
| 23:13 |
proller |
or completely to old algorithm |
| 23:15 |
proller |
most lags from mapgen, he adds to queue many blocks, but they calculated in 10-30 secondt |
| 23:15 |
proller |
btw, you set liquid_update = 0.2 ? or 0.1 |
| 23:24 |
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| 23:26 |
celeron55 |
i think this is starting to be relatively good http://multa.bugs3.com/minetest/forum/ |
| 23:28 |
Jordach |
celeron55, its rather mature too |
| 23:30 |
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| 23:31 |
celeron55 |
more actual modders should go and attempt to use it, and shout at rubenwardy about all remaining rough edeges in functionality |
| 23:31 |
celeron55 |
(http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=3656) |
| 23:32 |
Jordach |
celeron55, if it were more intergrated with the current site it'd more than likely be more useful |
| 23:32 |
celeron55 |
it's kind of up to thexyz of when it would be hosted at an official location (because it integrates with the forum accounts) |
| 23:33 |
Jordach |
mods.minetest.net |
| 23:33 |
celeron55 |
also, i don't think it shouldu se such a direct copy of the main site's layout; it needs some kind of variation |
| 23:33 |
Jordach |
some gradients to shine it up a little? |
| 23:33 |
celeron55 |
ugh |
| 23:34 |
Jordach |
or just different colours in general |
| 23:35 |
celeron55 |
more like a smaller title thing and some other variation of the colors |
| 23:36 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, well it works, proper tile is picked up in getNodeTile, rotation is passed to makeFastFace and here vertex_dirs are rotated. |
| 23:36 |
celeron55 |
and a better layout otherwise; for example the box at the right makes it look horribly cramped |
| 23:36 |
RealBadAngel |
looks like i got rid of ^[transform even for default facedir |
| 23:37 |
celeron55 |
the information is at roughly the right place but it needs tuning |
| 23:37 |
Jordach |
celeron55, on this 17'' monitor everything is nice and clear |
| 23:38 |
Jordach |
and i know VanessaE complained that somethings arent in the right place |
| 23:39 |
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| 23:41 |
celeron55 |
i kind of hate the minetest.net layout |
| 23:41 |
celeron55 |
and style |
| 23:41 |
RealBadAngel |
http://pastebin.com/ze6zp3vd and http://pastebin.com/sj7rVBNz |
| 23:42 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, how about now? |
| 23:42 |
celeron55 |
it suits reasonably as a "front door" to minetest, but it doesn't work for pages with a lot of functionality |
| 23:42 |
Taoki |
celeron55: Kinda asked this before on the channel, but was curious what you think: What do you think about supporting svg textures? Given the simplistic style, some mods could go very nicely with vector graphics :) |
| 23:42 |
Taoki |
But... does Irrlicht support that? |
| 23:42 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: no and not trivial |
| 23:42 |
Taoki |
Ok. Would have been pretty awesome |
| 23:43 |
celeron55 |
well, not really |
| 23:43 |
celeron55 |
it's just a matter of rasterizing them at texture load time rather than texture pack packaging time |
| 23:43 |
Jordach |
the textures would be of infinite scale |
| 23:43 |
Jordach |
(if left to render as an svg would.) |
| 23:43 |
Taoki |
celeron55: I was actually thinking of rendering them as vector images, so they'd have infinite resolution. But Irrlicht would need to support that |
| 23:43 |
Taoki |
Yes, what I was thinking about |
| 23:43 |
celeron55 |
i don't think anything supports that |
| 23:45 |
Taoki |
Web browsers do :P But I'm not aware of 3D engines either |
| 23:45 |
Taoki |
Theoretically, it wouldn't be impossible. But I don't know when the irrlicht people will ever add that |
| 23:45 |
celeron55 |
if you want to render stuff at realtime in 3D, you need to rasterize all textures in any case |
| 23:46 |
Taoki |
Well, svg could still be used to generate png versions of textures based on screen resolution and such. But that would be sorta silly |
| 23:47 |
Taoki |
So if someone has a small screen resolution, the engine converts them at the highers resolution they can't notice. But that would be a bad idea so no |
| 23:47 |
Taoki |
Would only be of use if they could be rendered in realtime |
| 23:56 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, can you take a look at new facedir code and comment if it is acceptable now? |
