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IRC log for #minetest, 2019-10-01

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14:22 jas_ nepugia: if you've got its position, you can do anything.  remove the node manually, copy its information for transmission to various inventories, etc ...
14:23 jas_ local t = minetest.get_item_drops(minetest.get_node(pos).name); for i = 1, #t do player:get_inventory():add_item("main", t[i]) end; i dunno, something like that.
14:24 jas_ someone recently, anand? suggested an add_from_list type feature.  metatable?  i dunno these
14:24 jas_ anyways, you can get its drops with that feature, but it's listed in the docs are marked for removal
14:24 jas_ it works tho
14:25 jas_ speaking of features with warnings, minetest.register_on_place_node also contains one, recommending the node's on_place callback instead
14:25 jas_ but that works also
14:33 nepugia jas_ yeah, i did see get_item_drops, but using deprecated features is kinda ehh
14:34 nepugia I tried ItemStack(node.name) and variations but didn't have much luck there either (the room_for_item call always failed)
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17:11 MinetestBot [git] JamesTobin -> minetest/minetest: README: Add dependencies for Arch Linux (#8998) 251038e https://git.io/JenyV (2019-10-01T17:09:59Z)
17:11 MinetestBot [git] Wuzzy2 -> minetest/minetest: All Settings: Set min limit for crtitical settings (#9000) 7fafe65 https://git.io/Jenyw (2019-10-01T17:09:37Z)
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18:24 wowaname so wait what *was* the reason for jumping from 0.4 to 5.0 instead of like 1.0
18:26 Krock because Minetest is not just one, but 5x feature-complete
18:26 Krock s/one/once/
18:26 Krock 5x less bugs (from 0 to 0)
18:27 wowaname i preferred a serious answer
18:27 Krock well, it kinda goes into that direction
18:27 wowaname :v
18:27 Krock because people think that it's still in heavy development, unstable and that stuff
18:28 Krock whereas it might be, 5.0 is a nicer number than a leading zero
18:28 Krock and games are never complete, and there are always requests so 1.0 would be a worse choice than just dropping the leading ero
18:28 Krock *zero
18:29 Krock AFAIK there was a multi-page long discussion on that on the forums, like 7 months ago or so
18:36 Krock after all it was quite an unusual change in the history of Minetest. many old packet types were removed, including compatibility code and sending real floats over the network
18:37 Krock I hope that answers your question, wowaname
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18:53 Wuzzy "games are never complete" ... thats completely false. Chess is complete. i really hate the "eternal beta" ideology.
18:53 Wuzzy but yeah minetest 5.0 is really just minetest 0.5
18:53 Wuzzy well, not *really* of course
18:54 Wuzzy but minetest just has many many rough edges
18:55 Wuzzy i wonder what will be the equivalent to version 1.0 in minetest (since version 1.0 doesnt exist)
18:56 Wuzzy version 1.0 as in, the first truly release-worthy, promotion-worthy "bug-free" version that you can drop to the masses. something that could theoretically be reviewed
18:57 Krock Wuzzy: where's the 3D chess mode?
18:58 Krock there's also this weird bug where the towers can move
18:59 Wuzzy but i agree minetest is moving closer to a true 1.0 version
19:00 Wuzzy e.g. formspec coords have been fixed. thats a big one
19:00 Wuzzy but entities are still very painful to deal with. maybe it even needs a complete rework
19:01 kurtzmusch Wuzzy mt 1 would be good entitites. csm and network that doesnt lag for 1 or 2 seconds even though the actual ping is just 100 ms
19:01 Wuzzy especially collision of entities seems kinda broken
19:01 jas_ Wuzzy: nothing is complete
19:01 Wuzzy i dont think csm should be a requirement
19:02 Wuzzy "complete" doesnt mean "100% perfection". just "all the features we wanted in this game (engine)"
19:02 kurtzmusch i dont think its possible to make good entities without them... i might be wrong though
19:02 Wuzzy thats the reason why i am strongly opposed to the eternal beta ideology that seems infesting FOSS dev for some time now...
19:02 jas_ what's in a number?
19:04 jas_ personally i thought it was kinda unfortunate they mt skipped versions for appearance's sake.  i'm glad it seems to be working out...
19:04 Wuzzy i think #1 problem with entities is collision. there's just so many "mobs sneak through solid nodes" bugs in MCL2
19:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
19:04 kurtzmusch dafug
19:04 kurtzmusch #2
19:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood
19:04 jas_ #7924
19:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7924 -- [NO SQUASH] Allow binding dig, place actions to keys; remove LMB/RMB hardcoding by ClobberXD
19:05 jas_ heh, remembered the number by heart
19:05 Wuzzy oh yeah. non-moronic controls is another very important requirement imo
19:05 Wuzzy and number #2 problem with entities is their entire API
19:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood
19:05 jas_ i feel strongly mouse binds is an accessibility issue
19:06 Wuzzy entities are weirdly different from players. many calls that work for players dont work for entities ... and (this is the weird part) vice-versa
19:07 Wuzzy a fool might assume that players "inherit" features from entities (in an OOP) fashion but thats not exactly true. the devil lies in the details
19:07 Wuzzy no set_velocity for players
19:07 Wuzzy and the other way around, no gravity for entities. you all have to code it by hand
19:08 jas_ yeah
19:08 Wuzzy The whole api just doesnt make sense. maybe its best to just burn all entities to the ground and start over
19:08 jas_ wuzzy i just hope you don't get too overwhelmed with all of these details.  it is after all, just a game.
19:09 jas_ "burn it all to the ground and start over" is a good indication
19:09 jas_ lol o/
19:09 Wuzzy Games are serious business!
19:09 Wuzzy 😀
19:10 Wuzzy well but its all the details added together that make entities painful to deal with
19:10 Wuzzy one of the best games we have ucurrently has a very clever way to deal with entities
19:10 Wuzzy avoiding them like the plague 😀
19:10 Wuzzy i am talking of course of Inside The Box
19:12 Wuzzy one really frustrating bug is that you cannot even spawn entities reliably. add_entity() may or may not spawn an entity and its near-impossible to check if a spawn succeeded. and that's not just a detail
19:13 kurtzmusch Wuzzy: i strongly believe that seting player velocity should be done client side, just see how long it takes to sprint after you press E, even with ping about 100ms it can take 1 or 2 seconds
19:13 kurtzmusch this is why imo CSM MUST be a thing
19:13 Wuzzy look
19:13 Wuzzy thats what i hate about csm proponents
19:13 Wuzzy they always assume the only way to fix current issues is by CSM. no alternatives are considered
19:15 Wuzzy So, obviously, for player physics stuff like sprinting, handling it all server side is indeed stupid. i agree. but that doesnt neccessarily mean we need to have scripting on the client
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19:16 Wuzzy an alternative would be to let server define special controls that activate special player physics (e.g. sprint). the server just tells that the client ... once and thats it. no client scripts needed
19:17 Wuzzy thats admittedly only a rought example, but i just want to show that not every problem (if any) requires client scripts
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19:17 jas_ ok i'm back
19:18 kurtzmusch well, yes but that would be extremely limiting: allowing to have programable behaviour on the client side means a lot less work for engine devs and more stuff offloaded to modders. imagine covering all the possible stuff we can think of on the engine side...
19:18 jas_ you hate csm proponents?  you hate me wuzzy?  :'(
19:19 Wuzzy i'm not a friend of "offloading stuff to modders" just because you can
19:19 jas_ why do you hate me?
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19:19 kurtzmusch the thing about csm is that it allows modders to do more with less engine changes
19:19 Wuzzy jas_: thats not what i said!
19:19 jas_ the thing about csm is that it's c-l-i-e-n-t s-i-d-e
19:19 kurtzmusch im not a fan either, but its better with we have the control than not having anythung at all
19:19 jas_ oh, well u did say "one thing i hate about csm proponents"
19:20 jas_ perhaps you meant, one proposition csm proponents make i hate, is that...  it's the details, as you say
19:20 kurtzmusch its better if **
19:20 jas_ i mean, what other things do you hate about csm proponents, right? ;)
19:20 jas_ my hair?
19:20 Wuzzy you're overinterpreting, and you know that
19:20 jas_ you want this perfect thing, it's not happening
19:20 jas_ that's my interpretation
19:20 Krock jas_: your hair is floating awfully in this soup of csm contents
19:20 jas_ it does
19:21 jas_ very annoying
19:21 jas_ https://battleofthebits.org/barracks/Profile/everamzah/ i have a lot of hair
19:23 jas_ my problem wuzzy is that you argue these things, and sometimes get them removed.  you and i have very different ideals
19:23 jas_ recent tool regex for example.
19:23 Wuzzy did you use tool regex?
19:23 jas_ obviously, i am heavily reliant on sneak glitch, which u heavily advocated against in the past
19:24 Wuzzy well the problem was it was deeply ingrained into the engine and subjugated *all* games to sneak glitch. which is not good
19:24 jas_ it's great now, i hope you're satisfied
19:24 jas_ i know i am
19:24 jas_ it was a complete improvement
19:25 jas_ i use a hybrid old_move/new_move.  new_move with sneak glitch disabled by default, and when sprinting it's old_move with sneak_glitch enabled
19:25 jas_ but you can not imagine my dismay when it got removed
19:25 jas_ it's over, i'm over it lol
19:25 Wuzzy maybe if people really care they could push for the Return of The Sneak Glitch. except this time, as a proper feature that actually works without all the glitchyness attached to it.
19:25 jas_ i'm content now
19:26 jas_ i would like to see #9011 address
19:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9011 -- Movement: sudden X/Z speed vector erased while landing from jumps
19:26 Wuzzy and that could be turned on or off by game maker
19:26 jas_ i don't remember the proper number for the still-open issue
19:26 jas_ it's fine now for me Wuzzy, i know it's not "perfect"
19:26 Wuzzy so did you ever need tool regex?
19:26 jas_ but fall damage avoidance is addressed using get_player_velocity
19:26 kurtzmusch #9011 doesnt happen only when falling btw, it also happens when initiating a jump
19:26 jas_ so i can have my cake and eat it too
19:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9011 -- Movement: sudden X/Z speed vector erased while landing from jumps
19:26 jas_ you're missing the point wuzzy
19:27 jas_ the point is you want it gone
19:27 jas_ the's the point
19:27 jas_ 8 year old feature, and you want to kill it before anyone knew it was there
19:27 Wuzzy do you know anyone who uses tool regex?
19:27 jas_ celeron said it best, make the group-based PR first, then think about removing the old way
19:27 jas_ it's an interesting research project
19:27 jas_ but no, i do not
19:27 jas_ now, that is besides the point
19:27 Wuzzy see? thats the point
19:27 jas_ again, the point is you want it removed
19:28 jas_ "just because"
19:28 jas_ it doesn't fit your ideal
19:28 jas_ that's not fair
19:28 jas_ stop it!
19:28 Wuzzy but that was not the reason why i was opposed...
19:28 jas_ haha
19:28 Wuzzy i did not advocate for its removal because nobody used it.
19:28 Wuzzy i advocated for its removal because it just encouaged bad coding practice
19:28 jas_ so says you!
19:29 jas_ and maybe even kharl, again not the point
19:29 Wuzzy don't blame kahrl.
19:29 jas_ i don't blame anyone
19:29 jas_ that is the point
19:29 Wuzzy this system was added before we had groups
19:29 jas_ indeed
19:29 jas_ i read the discussion
19:29 Wuzzy now that we have groups, using regex is just completely dumb
19:29 jas_ unless
19:29 jas_ there exists no alternate
19:29 jas_ just because you think it's dumb
19:29 jas_ doesn't mean you gut it
19:29 Wuzzy But at least this is marked as deprecated
19:30 Wuzzy well i thought you read the discussion?
19:30 jas_ sure, now it can at least be addressed
19:30 jas_ and the discussed is good, the agreement to move to groups is good
19:30 jas_ the premature removal of a feature is not good
19:30 Wuzzy because then you know using regex would lead to hilarious bugs such as unexpectedly matching items that you never wanted to match
19:30 jas_ no
19:30 jas_ ur example is flawed
19:30 jas_ for example
19:30 Wuzzy why
19:30 jas_ if i search for stone group
19:31 jas_ i get stone, and i get stone walls
19:31 jas_ that's the reality
19:31 jas_ of the world, it's not perfect
19:31 jas_ it never will be
19:31 jas_ stop it!
19:31 jas_ :)
19:31 Wuzzy ...
19:31 Wuzzy you are using MTG as example
19:31 jas_ u can use regex correctly, it's done every day
19:31 Wuzzy its MTG's fault they are using groups incorrectly, not Minetest's
19:32 jas_ why are u using bad programming as a justification for removing it?  because it's any justification, and any jusitification will do, because it's not fitting with your ideal here
19:32 Wuzzy plus, it could be easily fixed
19:32 jas_ or something, because honestly, that feature NEVER BOTHERED YOU
19:32 jas_ stop it! heehhe okay o7 l8
19:32 Wuzzy it immediately bothered me as soon i learned about it
19:32 Wuzzy and i spoke out against it in the same day
19:35 blaise are there any shaders that give similar results in minetest as Sonic Ether’s Unbelievable Shaders do in MC ?
19:35 Wuzzy in Minetest or in general?
19:37 Wuzzy Minetets doesnt have great shaders and probably wont have them for a long time. Minetest is not about great graphics. in fact, the pixely style is even preferred
19:37 Wuzzy so I believe the answer is probably no
19:38 blaise I'm fine with the "pixely style" and also prefer it, I'm just wanting realistic shadows..
19:39 Wuzzy well we do have a smooth shadow setting
19:39 Wuzzy just go into the settings menu
19:39 Wuzzy but dont expect high-end graphics
19:40 kurtzmusch custom shaders would be fantastic for so much stufff that isn't 'realistic graphics'
19:40 Wuzzy fun fact: personally, i prefer the flat shadows because it allows me to see the light levels more clearly
19:40 Wuzzy with smooth shadows thats much harder
19:40 kurtzmusch also mipmaping and texture filtering is borked
19:41 Wuzzy issue ID?
19:41 kurtzmusch idk its very old
19:41 Wuzzy if its not on the bugtracker, then it doesnt exist 😛
19:41 kurtzmusch there is an issue
19:41 Wuzzy ok
19:41 kurtzmusch but i think it might have been forgotten
19:41 Wuzzy whatever
19:41 kurtzmusch lemme look
19:41 Wuzzy as long theres an issue somewhere i am happy
19:42 kurtzmusch basically the mipmaps or other forms of filtering are sampling transparent pixels
19:42 kurtzmusch but since the engine doesnt render transparecny, it uses the color values of the pixel to interpolate
19:42 Wuzzy which is probably why i never use it? 😀
19:42 Wuzzy i dislike filtering because everything looks so blurry
19:43 kurtzmusch so you could have a green grass that turns black or pink at a distance if you set the transparent pixels to pink
19:43 Wuzzy have fun fixing all the PNGs then, I guess 😆
19:43 kurtzmusch its a workaround obviously the problem is in the texture smapling implementation
19:43 Wuzzy yea
19:44 Wuzzy i think this is a common bug in many video games
19:44 kurtzmusch even ITB looks crap with filtering
19:44 Wuzzy i would dislike it even if not buggy i guess
19:44 kurtzmusch does MC looks blurry to you?
19:45 Wuzzy now this might shock you but
19:45 Wuzzy i never played MC
19:45 kurtzmusch lel
19:45 kurtzmusch i havent in a long time
19:46 kurtzmusch but i remember there was no noise at a distance and there was no changing in color with mipmaps or the "black" contour
19:47 Wuzzy jas_: but i am fine with the current compromise of deprecating the feature
19:48 Wuzzy so modders that *really* do want it can still use it (for now) but they are warned
19:48 kurtzmusch #6846 is one of them, ive seen more
19:48 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6846 -- Poor mip mapping of certain textures with transparent pixels
19:48 kurtzmusch you gotta choose btween warping lava or black plants at a distance
19:48 MinetestBot [git] SnicklePickles -> minetest/minetest_game: Grammar updates README.txt ce1eaee https://git.io/JenHZ (2019-10-01T19:47:58Z)
19:51 sfan5 hybriddog tested a better algorithm in this issue https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6917
19:51 sfan5 for mipmapping
19:51 Wuzzy about the dry shrub in #6846: IIRC, all pixels are either 0% or 100% in dry_shrub
19:51 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6846 -- Poor mip mapping of certain textures with transparent pixels
19:52 Wuzzy i believe, all plants in MTG are like that
19:55 kurtzmusch sfan5 i think it looks worse in most cases, still the real problem is with textures using transparency, like all plantlike wich i dont think his algortihm fixes?
19:56 sfan5 kurtzmusch: scroll down, there's some improved screenshots further down
19:58 kurtzmusch oh, yes, the one he uses 50% linear downscale looks the best imo
19:59 kurtzmusch wuzzy: its not about loosing detail( also a problem ) its about sampling the colors of transparent pixels, shifting the color of the plantlike nodes at a distance to black
19:59 kurtzmusch well, usually black but whoever made the texture can shoose the color
19:59 kurtzmusch 0% transparency still has a color
20:00 Wuzzy sorry, i was distracted by the 1st screenshot
20:14 kurtzmusch #2154 here you can see texture filtering is sampling the white from the transparent pixels
20:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2154 -- Texture filtering smoothes textures
20:17 kurtzmusch it says on the bottom that it got fixed but it didnt
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