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IRC log for #minetest, 2016-07-06

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:10 haole do we have an issue for this problem report? https://www.reddit.com/r/Minetest/​comments/4ehcmd/mouse_moves_on_its​_own/?st=iqa4ndm6&sh=6b9899ac
00:10 haole couldn't find one, but maybe I'm missing it, otherwise I'll create it and try to come up with a patch
00:10 haole I can reproduce it quite easily
00:12 everamzah try: enable_joysticks = false
00:12 everamzah i think it's related, couple of issues for that. recently fixed?
00:12 everamzah default false maybe.
00:12 haole everamzah: ok
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00:14 haole everamzah: can't find the settings... is there an easy way to do it ingame?
00:14 haole I mean, the entry enable_joysticks
00:16 haole the entry doesn't exist with /set... should I create it?
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00:18 haole everamzah: it fixes it! do you know if this was tracked in a github issue? I want to reply on reddit about this
00:18 haole argh, no... it happened again :(
00:19 haole is there a dev here? what's the best way of tracing minetest's code and where should I start regarding the mouse vs camera movement behavior?
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00:21 robinspi @haole: I am no dev, and there are lickely no devs here. I would suggest trying out the forums
00:24 whitephoenix there are tons of devs here
00:24 whitephoenix theres also the minetest-dev channel
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00:29 haole ok! will try in the forums, but let me know if someone knows the answer
00:29 haole (about the implementation)
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00:32 robinspi I will. I think that there have been multiple projects with Minetest and VR, some motion tracking devices. I know there has to be some type of documentation for some of them.
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01:25 haole well, I cannot seem to be able to speak on #minetest-dev :(
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01:36 robinspi @haole: I am not surprised. That channel is generally silent anyway.
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01:39 haole created an issue for this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4287
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01:45 robinspi Ahhh
01:45 robinspi I have seen that before
01:45 robinspi What mouse are you using, and are you on a laptop?
01:46 robinspi @haole that is
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02:21 haole robinspi: laptop, but it happens with my usb mouse as well
02:21 haole both touchpad and mouse
02:27 swift110-phone ok
02:34 robinspi interesting... I have had this happen before as I said...
02:34 robinspi interesting... I have had this happen before as I said in the Github issue
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06:19 Out`Of`Control hi
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06:33 shangul how much does minetest eat my internet bandwidth while multi playing?
06:33 shangul hai
06:38 Svet i have no idea but i am wondering the same
06:47 VanessaE shangul: not much, maybe 50 kBytes/sec or so, more if you're playing in a busy area on the server.
06:49 VanessaE except when you join a new server for the first time, then you can expect as much as 40 MB of new data, at up to around 2 MB/sec or so if you're on a very fast server and your machine's sufficiently fast as well.
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06:50 VanessaE (after which it slows down to a more "normal" speed)
06:52 shangul k
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07:30 Out`Of`Control is there option to flip with WE?
07:30 Out`Of`Control 90 or 180 degree
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09:05 JamesTait Good morning all!  Happy Wednesday, and happy International Kissing Day! 😘
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09:24 Calinou that's not my day :)
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10:55 Out`Of`Control how disable death message?
11:16 Krock edit source code?
11:16 Out`Of`Control Krock:  there is no option in config?
11:16 Krock haven't seen one last time
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11:37 haole just created a pull request to fix the weird "camera moving on its own" issue that I talked about yesterday: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4289
11:43 Krock looks good
11:45 Krock but on which systems does this happen?
11:50 haole Krock: windows 10
11:50 haole but may happen on others, I think
11:55 * T4im imagines microsoft employees playing with haole's input devices for fun via their remote control mechanisms
11:59 * haole gave up on privacy and controlling his own computer long ago...
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12:00 haole but to be fair I have logs setup in my router and I don't see much home dialing from them (and I'm a long time linux user)
12:03 T4im how do you check? if they connect via 80/443, quite a few things might be hidden inside your day to day web traffic
12:04 T4im browsers are especially sneaky with that
12:04 T4im even the open source ones could behave a bit better :(
12:04 haole some IPs from their servers recommended by "the experts"
12:04 haole but browsers are indeed sneaky and they are so on every platform
12:04 T4im yea
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12:05 haole :)
12:05 haole btw, is there a port of minetest for webgl or similar ongoing?
12:05 T4im not that I know of
12:05 T4im but check github, maybe someone has experimented with that
12:11 Out`Of`Control Krock: edite source code, deathloop is gone
12:12 Krock good
12:15 Out`Of`Control but fix is buggy, it eats more and more ram
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12:40 Fixer "Symantec's solution runs in the kernel, allowing any malware that targets it to have kernel permissions. They were also using “at least” seven-year-old forks of open source libraries"
12:40 Fixer LOOOOL
12:43 Calinou haole: no, there isn'(t
12:43 Calinou -(
12:45 haole have the devs seem this new language yet? http://terralang.org/
12:45 haole seems like a good choice for writing complex code in lua that runs really fast :)
12:46 T4im if it's just about executing native code, you'd probably be better off with something like ffi or bindings from c
12:46 T4im unless you want the engine to be rewritten in that :P
12:48 haole T4im: no :)
12:48 T4im for luajit that would maybe already work: http://luajit.org/ext_ffi.html
12:48 T4im but would need still fallbacks for plain lua then
12:49 haole sounds cool! I want to contribute to one minecraft-like game, and I was checking out both minetest and terasology, but I like minetest's approach better
12:49 haole will try to ramp up and start contributing some code
12:49 T4im great :)
12:50 haole just the name is weird haha I have to explain to my friends that it's not a test of anything, it's a game (or game engine)
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12:58 haole are there any mods around with advanced AI for mobs?
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13:35 Calinou haole: no, but engine has built-in pathfinding
13:35 Calinou don't expect something that will replace your Quake 3 bots
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13:45 Markow I've been testing both MT (C++ / Lua based) vs MC (Java based) in parallel. I must say, although I'm impressed by the efforts of the MT devs, the performance of MT is quite poor given that it is coded in C++ / Lua. Add to this, the 'world map' is also smaller. What does impress me is the speed of MC given: 1) Its large world size, 2) Coded in Java. This is my honest opinion. Conclusion: MT's performance, given it's C++ affiliation, should be exponentiall
13:47 Krock !c 64000^3
13:47 MinetestBot 64003
13:47 Krock !c 64000**3
13:47 MinetestBot 262144000000000
13:47 Krock !c (2**32)**2 * 256
13:47 MinetestBot 4722366482869645213696
13:47 Calinou C++ is only ~15% faster than Java
13:48 Krock !c 'mc maps are ' + (4722366482869645213696 / 262144000000000) + ' bigger than the mt ones'
13:48 MinetestBot TypeError: Can't convert 'float' object to str implicitly
13:48 Calinou and, Minetest is very unoptimized, both in renderer code and mod code
13:48 nore Markow: world sizes have nothing to do with speed, only a very small part of the world is loaded at once
13:48 Krock !c (4722366482869645213696 / 262144000000000)
13:48 MinetestBot 18014398.509481985
13:48 Markow Calinou: I don't even see 15% performance increase of MT vs MC
13:48 Calinou we use a pre-made renderer, Irrlicht
13:48 Calinou Minecraft uses a custom-made renderer using LWJGL
13:48 Markow That's where I believe the issue is, in Irrlicht
13:48 Calinou Irrlicht is fast when used well
13:48 nore Markow: Java/C++ has little to no impact on FPS too
13:48 Calinou but, it was never made for voxel games…
13:49 nore this is mainly the GPU that does the work
13:50 nore to be short: being coded in C++ won't help, the bottlenecks are not there
13:50 nore and, the world size has nothing to do with speed
13:50 Markow Calinou: The "C++ is 15% faster than Java" is questionable. I think it's much faster than that, IMO by using both.
13:51 swift110 good morning
13:51 T4im stop comparing apples with oranges :D
13:51 Calinou Markow: Java is very optimized for a JIT language
13:51 Calinou it is, on average, slightly faster than C#
13:51 Markow It's optimized, true
13:51 Calinou it's compiled ahead-of-time just like C# and C++
13:51 Calinou (to bytecode, not native code, though)
13:52 T4im C/C++ is AoT compiling, Java is using a JIT compiler additional to limited AoT
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13:53 T4im which means it can do things like code inlining and loop unfolding over library boundaries that are unknown at compile time. So when you compare a highly modular C/C++ environment with a modular java environment, you can easily end up with java outperforming ansi C for that task
13:53 T4im but of course it won't do that for monolithic arithmetics and that stuff
13:54 Calinou also Java is faster to compile in most cases, IIRC
13:54 Calinou and, once you compile it, it can run on any platform and architecture that supports Java
13:54 Calinou (if it didn't do that, Minecraft would likely never have supported Linux, so be happy)
13:55 haole java is great, if you are willing to put the energy needed on it :)
13:55 haole but for me, it's way too verbose and counter-productive for fringe stuff
13:55 Calinou Java is overall easier to write than C++
13:56 Calinou the syntax feels less obtuse, and it's garbage-collected
13:56 Markow The expectation among even many coders was that a C++ version of MC would have much higher performance and speed. I code more in Java than in C++.
13:56 Calinou I'd use the shit out of it if the GUIs produced by it looked decent :/
13:56 haole you like java's syntax? ok...
13:56 Markow I do
13:57 Calinou haole: generally when I look at C++, I see things like template<std::vector>****
13:57 Calinou you get it :P
13:57 Markow Calinou: GUI's produced by utilizing JavaFX DO look great
13:57 Calinou too many weird characters all over the place
13:57 Calinou Markow: not on Linux
13:57 Calinou let me start one
13:57 twoelk I always had the impression mt was better on low end machines than mc and would indeed run on hardware too old to make mc even twitch a little. On high-end hardware though mt seems to start tripping
13:57 Calinou well, they can look good if you make them yourself
13:57 Calinou https://lut.im/tIty0cXIWG/lX8ebpdbzYjvYh8W.png
13:57 Calinou this is a good Java GUI
13:58 Markow I've been using JavaFX for a while now, on Linux only, and they look good
13:58 Calinou but, it's not "native"
13:58 haole terasology would be a more fair comparison to minetest, given the resources available
13:58 haole and terasology is slower on my machine :)
13:58 T4im Calinou: what gui is that? looks web based
13:58 Calinou Terasology doesn't even run at 60 FPS here
13:58 Calinou T4im: no idea…
13:58 Krock Calinou, C++ isn't that complicated but Minetest is a big project and has calls functions across 20 different files
13:58 Calinou it's PDFSam
13:58 Markow Terasology runs poorly
13:58 Krock *funcion calls
13:59 Calinou Krock: "Remember: functions are fun!" --my PHP teacher
13:59 Calinou he says that so that people don't write "fonction" instead (French for "function")
13:59 Krock yes, they're really funny :)
13:59 T4im maybe that's the first every good looking swing look and feel :D
13:59 Krock eww, that looks awful
14:00 T4im Krock: you haven't seen other swing look and feels
14:00 T4im it's like it can do everything, but only colorblind people create l&f's
14:01 T4im I mean, who comes up with something like http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~cs3283/ftp/Java​/swingConnect/friends/brokat/main_metal.gif
14:02 Calinou about Java being fast to build
14:02 T4im it looks like windows 95 had a child with my little pony
14:02 Calinou NeoTextureEdit builds in 2 seconds here
14:02 Markow Nice speed
14:02 Krock hehe.. fancy windows inside and simple window style outside
14:03 Markow T4im: Swing isn't JavaFX. Why are you showing Swing based GUIs?
14:03 Fixer gui of java programs i seen were so ugly
14:03 Markow Fixer: Not in JavaFX
14:04 T4im because pdfsam uses swing according to wikipedia
14:04 Fixer maybe
14:04 T4im but maybe that's outdated
14:04 Markow Most legacy apps coded in Java were mostly done with Swing
14:04 Fixer banking program in java I seen was grey coloured crap
14:04 Markow Probably utilized Swing
14:04 T4im yes
14:05 Calinou ok, here: https://lut.im/8Od8IkRPlF/cZRr6NLRHkmht8JN.png
14:05 Markow Calinou: That's nice
14:05 Calinou font rendering is horrible, buttons look bad
14:06 T4im those widget's aren't
14:06 T4im yea
14:06 Calinou font rendering of my system is super pretty in comparison
14:06 Calinou (using KDE, with Roboto font)
14:07 Markow Java doesn't deserve the negative rap it receives from C purists. It's actually quite good.
14:07 haole have you guys seen this game? http://www.quelsolaar.com/love/index.html
14:09 T4im Markow: that's probably because they never bothered to look closer; but the same could be said about any language purist
14:09 Markow T4im: Every language has its advantages / disadvantages
14:10 T4im except for … ;-)
14:10 T4im nah
14:10 Calinou too bad NeoTextureEdit is no longer maintained…
14:10 Markow Seriously, given that MC is in Java, I'd say it runs pretty damn well.
14:10 Calinou Substance Designer beats it in every way, but it's proprietary, paid and runs only on Windows
14:10 Calinou (Substance Painter does run on GNU/Linux though)
14:11 T4im do you know of any open alternatives?
14:12 T4im I mean gimp/inkscape/blender pipeline for stuff is obvious, but what else do you use?
14:12 Markow I think Calinou hit it correctly: MT must be better optimized and I think it does have more potential to render faster without choppiness
14:13 T4im if you find MT some rendering specialists, I'm sure everyone would appreciate that
14:13 Calinou T4im: no
14:13 Calinou T4im: GIMP and Blender are not tools specialized in procedural texture generation
14:13 Calinou https://lut.im/giAFkV3UtH/c2gWdVYsx1tnEGw8.png https://lut.im/c31L7G9p7O/kgzG1NLsK90Fj7AP.png
14:13 Calinou imagine if that was More Blocks Iron Stone :p
14:13 Calinou iron stone tile*
14:13 T4im I know that they aren't specialized in it, but they do have some features to that end
14:13 Calinou or checker
14:14 Calinou they really don't in my experience :( also, there's no 3D preview
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14:15 T4im Calinou: https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc​:2.4/Manual/Textures/Types/Procedural
14:15 Calinou making an open source alternative to Substance Designer/Painter is a lot of work
14:15 Calinou T4im: those are not easy to merge together
14:15 Calinou Blender does provide a graph system for merging them, but it sucks
14:15 T4im yea, I know, it's pretty limited :/
14:16 T4im but then again, blender is so full of features already :D
14:16 Markow Blender is a feature packed tool, I enjoy using it
14:17 Calinou maybe someone could fork NeoTextureEdit, add more filters, PBR support…
14:18 Calinou but basic stuff like data loss prevention or undo/redo is missing
14:18 Calinou texture exporting is done all using the CPU, using only 1 thread, it's very slow for 2048×2048 textures which are common in games now
14:19 Calinou (in comparison, Substance apps do it using the GPU)
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14:23 Markow Definitely enhanced performance is given when the GPU handles such
14:24 Calinou but it's harder to make use of the GPU
14:24 Calinou than of the CPU
14:24 Markow It's takes the load off from the CPU
14:24 Calinou Substance apps do it using DirectX 10
14:24 Calinou (compute shaders?)
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17:43 agaran Hello
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17:51 Krock hi
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18:11 thePalindrome_ Fun fact: a bucket of water in minetest weighs 2,198 pounds
18:11 thePalindrome_ Discuss
18:11 KaadmY OH NOES
18:11 Krock !g 2,198 pounds in kg
18:11 MinetestBot Krock: Problem getting data from Google.
18:11 thePalindrome_ 997 kg
18:12 thePalindrome_ I converted to pounds
18:12 thePalindrome_ I hate being murican
18:12 Krock huh? always use SI
18:12 thePalindrome I have no sense of anything in SI units :P
18:13 Krock !c 1 * 10**3
18:13 MinetestBot 1000
18:13 thePalindrome That's assuming the ambient temperature is 25C in minetest
18:13 Krock 100 litres = 1000 kg
18:13 Krock *1000 litres = 1000 kg
18:13 thePalindrome ?
18:14 thePalindrome That's dependant on the temperature of the water
18:14 Krock does -20°C water exist?
18:15 thePalindrome I don't believe so
18:15 Krock maybe it would because on the mt everest you only need about 70°C to cook water
18:15 Krock if not less
18:15 thePalindrome That's because the pressure, but... :hmm:
18:16 Krock but no idea about the freezing temperature
18:16 Krock heh, the mt everest would just melt away, so this is imposs
18:18 KaadmY MT EVEREST
18:18 KaadmY MT
18:18 KaadmY MT
18:18 Krock we, we get it
18:18 Krock *ye
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18:44 Fixer test
18:45 Krock test
18:45 agaran tset?
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19:00 jomat mine*
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20:52 STHGOM is there anything that smoothes nodes out?
20:52 Calinou no
20:52 STHGOM dammit
20:53 STHGOM i meant groups of nodes. not the actualy nodes themselfs. still no probly
20:58 Calinou https://github.com/zyedidia/micro/commit/​3d3b76a31c8b6bd1482095549679fb8bd4601547
20:58 Calinou :D
20:58 Calinou (I contributed the color scheme)
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21:02 Megaf Hi, can anyone confirm this on your Linux box please?
21:02 Megaf #4292
21:02 Megaf -ShadowBot/#minetest-dev- https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4292 -- cmake fails to find postgre on Debian. Missing option to add include library.
21:02 Calinou I'm not on Debian/Ubuntu
21:02 Megaf the missing include library is OS independent
21:03 Calinou I'm cloning Minetest Git to see
21:03 Megaf Thanks
21:04 Calinou -- Found PostgreSQL: /usr/lib64/libpq.so (found version "9.5.3")
21:04 Calinou -- PostgreSQL backend enabled
21:04 Calinou -- PostgreSQL includes: /usr/include
21:04 Calinou works here… maybe a Debian/Ubuntu-specific bug?
21:04 Calinou also why isn't gettext enabled by default? ._.
21:09 Megaf hm
21:16 whitephoenix I'm on debian testing, I'll try it in a minute
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21:56 Fixer ugh, opera 10.63 with flash 9 will not run youtube on piii for some reason, maybe I didn't wait more enough
22:00 Megaf Fixer, piii? What's that?
22:01 T4im just remove flash then
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22:02 Fixer removed, but it does not remove it completely
22:02 T4im :/
22:10 Fixer T4im: it seems even those days it was piece of crap
22:10 Fixer that can't uninstall itself
22:12 Megaf Fixer, oh, you meant, Pentium III?
22:12 Megaf Fixer, what about html5 version?
22:13 Fixer Megaf: does not work I guess
22:13 Fixer banned IE5 in firewall
22:13 Fixer :3
22:14 Fixer T4im: deleted flash plugin for opera, so should be no problem
22:20 T4im wait you installed an old version of flash?
22:20 T4im and went into the internet? :o
22:21 whitephoenix I'm so powerful I run everything as root
22:21 whitephoenix and shitpost in the wrong channels
22:22 Megaf good for you whitephoenix
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23:21 Fixer T4im: yes, youtube only though
23:58 AndDT Fixer: win98?
23:58 Fixer yes
23:59 AndDT I used to use it on my p1-mmx when I was interested in downgrade

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