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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2018-01-30

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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04:46 QwertyCool hey all
04:46 QwertyCool going to try and fix this, but have a question or two
04:46 QwertyCool https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6977
04:47 QwertyCool I can see a couple ways to approach the problem: efit the error message to be more broad(probably not ideal) ie cant place IGNORE// unknown blocks)
04:48 QwertyCool or modify the map section to not set unknown blocks to "ignore_content and instead make it its own type
04:48 QwertyCool but still disable it from being placed
04:50 QwertyCool im concerned that if i change the object type to a new type it might cause errors elsewhere, not familiar enough with the code but since its not getting placed it shouldn't really interect elsewhere
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14:09 ThomasMonroe #6957
14:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6957 -- Add a refresh button to the serverlist by ThomasMonroe314
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15:13 Megaf https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/pull/6048#issuecomment-310934029
15:13 Megaf sfan5: There's no need for all that space in the search box
15:14 Megaf is not that the buttons takes much space, search box does
15:15 sfan5 why are you highlighting me to just to tell me that you have a differing opinion
15:16 Megaf Because is better than commeting on a closed PR on Github?
15:27 ThomasMonroe I think #6957 is done.
15:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6957 -- Add a refresh button to the serverlist by ThomasMonroe314
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16:04 Megaf #6957 looks good to me. Even with the icon isntead of text
16:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6957 -- Add a refresh button to the serverlist by ThomasMonroe314
17:04 Megaf wow, we have been growing a lot recentely. So many new faces reporting bus on GitHub
17:05 Megaf quite nice. Though it may prove to be a challenge to take care of all that
17:06 Megaf by the way, just merge this already https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/pull/1929
17:06 Megaf "Carts: Correct visuals of going up/down"
17:08 Krock triggered
17:09 Krock Megaf, it's already outdated and needs more changes from the boost_cart repo
17:09 Megaf make that your top priority then :P
17:10 Krock adding....  echo "do game 1929" >/dev/null
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20:08 sfan5 merging #6948 and #6989 in a few minutes
20:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6948 -- Add Android drivers to the video_driver drop-down menu by Wayward1
20:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6989 -- Fix liquid bottom by numberZero
20:09 nerzhul sfan5, nice
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20:12 sfan5 fucking github
20:12 sfan5 i did not want to rebase this
20:13 sfan5 (force pushing to squash last 3 commits)
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22:21 red-001 anyone have time to review #6982?
22:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6982 -- Make settings files per-world. by red-001
22:30 sofar =^o
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23:04 Fixer i've read yesterday conversation, the problem is minetest too beaurocratic, introvert, and accepting of PRs/ideas depends on "hive" mood of that day (that boiles down to p-r-mat, because he is often the only active member)
23:06 Fixer other problem is very few active members
23:06 Fixer core ones i mean
23:08 Fixer you need a lot of patience to develope for minetest
23:09 Fixer it is also quite conservative project it seems
23:10 Fixer despite that engine has progressed a lot and seems very stable to me
23:11 Fixer and game is evolving ridiculously slow (don't know why very few contributors to it compared to engine)
23:12 Fixer it is not like it is bad game, it is slow evolution of it
23:12 Fixer just my impressions
23:13 Fixer in a way i feel minetest development is opposing of DCSS development (another project), that is more anarchic and open in nature
23:14 Fixer here is good article on that anarchic approach https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201​7/03/23/making-dungeon-crawl-stone-s​oup-with-253-cooks-and-no-head-chef/
23:15 paramat no, accepting of PRs depends on dev approvals, accepting of ideas depends on multiple dev opinions. random opinons on ideas might be me if i'm the only one active
23:17 paramat it's not particularly beaurocratic, we have rules for good reason. not introvert, everything is open and public
23:17 red-001 minetest game only really has one active core dev, so no surprise it's slow
23:18 paramat well, 2 now :)
23:18 red-001 ThomasMonroe, reviewed your in-game menu thing PR
23:19 Fixer "In NetHack they have this model where if somebody [on the team] objects to something, it will not happen. So every person can veto every change. And in the end you could see that NetHack was dead, much less from having no releases – even when they had a few releases the changes that would appear were miniscule."
23:19 Fixer “I try very hard to always shift in the direction of more changes. Because if you try something and it doesn’t work – and this happens from time to time – you can revert. But if you don’t even try, you are stuck. We have to try radical things.”
23:20 red-001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto
23:20 red-001 seems like that never ends well
23:20 red-001 be it for countries or for games
23:21 sfan5 the wikipedia article describes a veto rule, we have no such thing
23:22 paramat we only need 2 dev approvals for a merge, that's the absolute minimum you can have without people acting on there own, so we add stuff as easily as is possible
23:22 red-001 sfan5, refering to what Fixer was talking about
23:22 paramat *their
23:22 sfan5 oh
23:22 Fixer i rarely see those article about open source development process, i find it very interesting
23:23 Fixer articles*
23:26 Fixer minetest is more complex though
23:27 Fixer 0.5.0 is perfect time to experiment
23:28 Fixer so don't wait, or you will be stuck with some changes you wanted during breaking compat
23:30 Fixer sofar: curious why you want bigger maps for minetest, I had opposite impression of people reducing/cutting map sizes, limiting mapgens, etc, typical server owner can't afford large maps
23:30 sofar those voices are vocal
23:30 sofar most people don't care
23:30 Fixer 65x65x65km is not enough?
23:31 rubenwardy there are better ways to limit map sizes
23:31 sofar you won't hear people come in and ask us if we can use more space
23:31 Fixer sofar: what is worrying me is not 65x65, but 65km of wasted height
23:31 rubenwardy such as not saving chunks which have not been modified
23:31 sofar sure, there's a risk to that, though
23:31 Fixer i think freeminer already has that
23:31 sofar maybe an age timestamp on a chunk would help
23:31 Fixer can be ported
23:32 sofar e.g. generated but untouched for N seconds
23:32 nerzhul rubenwardy, agreed
23:32 sofar so you could drop and regenerate those chunks later again without penalty
23:32 sofar and not constantly generate/delete/generate/delete the same chunks
23:32 Fixer but then tons of server owners will yell - it increased our server load, it lags!
23:33 sofar there are plenty of people interested in larger maps
23:33 sofar I just recently imported an MC map that didn't even fit
23:33 sofar lost a few km
23:33 rubenwardy you could always not automatically delete
23:34 Fixer what we need is nicer seeds for server, server owner refuse to use new fancy stuff and choose boring seeds
23:34 sofar I had to physically "move" it 15+km to get it to import
23:34 red-001 I think want we need is easy to configure vertical limits
23:34 rubenwardy but offer   ./minetest --delete-unmodified  or similar
23:34 red-001 no-one needs 32 km of empty air
23:34 rubenwardy or chat command
23:34 sofar what we need is a less restrictive environment
23:34 sofar then all the other things come free
23:35 sofar a flight sim needs more than 32km of air
23:35 sofar kerbaltest
23:35 sofar etc.
23:35 sofar stop thinking small :)
23:35 Fixer if someone can make large maps, i'm totally fine with this, i'm very sure server owners will impose limits, don't forget those autoexploring bots
23:35 sofar absolutely
23:36 sofar this isn't "you must use this"
23:36 red-001 what happened to that PR to detect noclip and fly?
23:36 sofar this is a "use it if you want" feature
23:37 Fixer map size limit should be considered by server owner depending on their hard-drive space, amount of backups, etc, it is already possible to limit it, large maps does not cause trouble, unless admin missed limit part
23:37 Fixer red-001: there is server-side movement PR, that should solve this iirc
23:38 sofar maybe a server owner wants to offer a large but shallow static pre-generated map
23:38 Fixer you can't fly/noclip, if it is calculated server side
23:38 sofar so size may not be any issue at all
23:38 Fixer may not
23:38 sofar it shouldn't be up to us to decide "it'll get too big", essentially
23:38 Fixer it boils down to "who will code it"
23:39 Fixer red-001: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6219
23:39 sofar it's not difficult, just tedious and nanometer type work
23:39 red-001 s/s16/s32
23:43 Shara I'm all for bigger maps. My issue is how map saving is handled.
23:44 Shara I'd love to be able to let my players walk on forever. But if they don't change the environment, then everything they generate being saved is a complete waste of space.
23:44 Fixer yeah
23:44 Shara And once you are handling 25GB map sizes, it ain't fun.
23:44 Fixer pfff
23:45 Fixer 25gb is nothing
23:45 Fixer minecraft oldest maps go into terabytes now
23:45 Shara Fixer: If I had funding to run servers, sure.
23:45 red-001 depends on how many backups you have
23:46 Shara Back ups can be sent elsewhere easily enough.
23:46 Shara But even that part starts being not much fun if you don't hav ea good download speed
23:47 Fixer also, is not rollback was meant to be a backup? it is just too damn slow
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23:48 Shara I have never had half the trouble with rollback that many seem to get, but maybe that's because I don't expect it to be a miracle-working cure-all
23:48 Fixer iirc vanessa had
23:49 Shara But really, as someone who is keen on having good and felxible methods of limiting maps - that's only because they are so wasteful in how they are saved, and not because I want small maps.
23:49 Shara flexible*
23:51 VanessaE for me rollback is slow and creates dozens-of-GB log files, because it can't filter-out technic automata.
23:52 VanessaE (doing a rollback check was usually fine, it was doing the actual rollback that was slow - and memory-hungry.
23:52 VanessaE )
23:52 Shara I don't allow technic on my servers, which is likely why I don't have issues.
23:54 VanessaE my players would string me up if I got rid of technic :P
23:54 Shara Once you add it... stuck with it :P
23:55 sofar just simulate a large EMP happened and all technic ceased to function
23:55 VanessaE hah!
23:55 Shara :D
23:56 ThomasMonroe lol
23:56 Fixer VanessaE: i'm not sure why it is multigigabyte, say griefer griefs some half-griefed dirt house, you rollback that players actions, how it ends up with multigigabyte memory eating disaster?
23:57 VanessaE Fixer: because it records every.  single.  place.  action.
23:58 VanessaE including every player doing stuff, and in particular, the actions of the hundreds of technic automata that run 24/7.
23:59 VanessaE I think something was added to the modding API to resolve that but technic et al. don't use it
23:59 VanessaE (0.5.x-only I think)

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