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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-04-28

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:34 crazyR joined #minetest-dev
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04:19 paramat hi hmmmmm please can you leave generateBiomes in the mapgens? it's essential that each is customisable for each mapgen. i'm requesting this now to save you the work. although 4 mapges have identical generateBiomes, mgvalleys doesn't, mgwatershed and new mapgens will be increasingly specialised (i have a space mapgen planned), generateBiomes will be increasingly customised and use more variables from the mapgen
04:20 paramat soon 3 from 7 mapgens will have customised genBiomes, some will be closely linked to each mapgen, so it makes more sense to leave them in each mapgen
04:21 paramat instead we can have multiple versions of getBiome(x, [y], z) called from these to allow different types of biome calculations
04:26 sofar at mapgen time or after?
04:26 paramat i've worked on mgwatershed for a year and will merge it after release. it will be multi-levelled, getBiome(x, y, z) will not use y relative to water_level, but will use y relative to the sea level of each realm. this means genBiomes will be using more variables from the mapgen
04:27 paramat sofar you're referring to what?
04:27 sofar getBiome(x, [y], z)
04:28 sofar is it getting exposed to lua?
04:28 paramat that's during mapgen as the biome material is placed
04:28 paramat no, this is c++ stuff
04:28 sofar I still want to have a post-mapgen lua api for it
04:28 sofar not just me :)
04:28 paramat oh yes so do i
04:28 sofar ok
04:29 paramat it can be done easily by calculating heat/humid noises for that point
04:29 paramat most of the code is already there in mgv7
04:29 paramat just the API needs adding
04:30 sofar could you cache it in the mapblock (but not save it to disk) to speed up multiple accesses?
04:30 hmmmmm paramat, I believe you are fundamentally misunderstanding the goal of my work
04:31 paramat maybe, i'm just asking that genBiomes is left in the mapgens
04:31 hmmmmm sure, but it does evenetually need to get deduplicated
04:31 hmmmmm all of the modern mapgens are essentially v7 clones
04:32 paramat to a degree
04:32 hmmmmm for mapgens that do have slight differences, like valleys, maybe you should consider a way to modify a genericized interface that captures that specific difference
04:33 paramat i don't mind the 4 identical genBiomes being combined and centralised
04:33 hmmmmm as it stands right now this is bad coding practice
04:33 hmmmmm it quadruples the chances of bugs being introduced by accident
04:34 paramat yes indeed, for the duplicated ones
04:34 paramat the ability to have a custom genBiomes *in the mapgen file* is essential
04:35 paramat it already is for 2 mapgens, and will be increasingly in future
04:36 hmmmmm i don't think it's actually necessary for valleys mapgen
04:36 hmmmmm all you need is a bit more clever of a design
04:36 paramat well the river_water stuff could be added to the other 4, but it will be unused code
04:37 paramat mgwatereshed and others will need more complex cusomisations which will not be combinable
04:38 paramat (watershed)
04:39 hmmmmm so let's take valleys as an example
04:39 hmmmmm there are some misunderstandings here
04:39 hmmmmm the purpose of generateTerrain is to generate the shape of the terrain using three basic node types, the stone node type, water, and air
04:40 paramat and river water
04:40 hmmmmm the purpose of generateBiome is to replace the placeholder stone, water, and air nodes with the biome specific nodes
04:40 paramat that's the 4th base terrain node
04:40 hmmmmm it's not...
04:40 paramat it is
04:40 hmmmmm you made it that way but that simply isn't the intended design
04:41 paramat river water is a base node replaced by genBiome
04:41 hmmmmm i cannot understand the reason it should be.
04:41 paramat rivers have to be placed during baseterrain gen
04:42 paramat the whole mapgen is shaped around them
04:42 hmmmmm the originally intended purpose of generateTerrain is to generate the basic shape though
04:42 hmmmmm not place the specific permanent node types
04:42 paramat they could be filled with normal water but then you lose the ability to differentiate the river from the ocean, essential for glacier etc
04:42 hmmmmm now there are two non-basic nodes being placed in valleys' generateTerrain, sand and river water
04:43 hmmmmm it seems to me like this could be abstracted away by using voxelmanip flags
04:43 paramat yes i admit the sand is hacky
04:43 hmmmmm what you're actually trying to say here is, "hey this node is part of a river"
04:43 paramat it was a hack to avoid other problems
04:44 paramat we can improve that agreed
04:44 hmmmmm so one of the key advantages of having cleanly designed code is that it becomes easily to compartmentalize
04:44 paramat but river water being a 4th base terrain node is essential
04:45 hmmmmm you can compartmentalize generateTerrain to do one thing - generate the basic shape of the terrain
04:45 hmmmmm and then you can have biomes do one thing - replace the basic shape with biome-specific nodes
04:45 hmmmmm then you *could* have another function specific to valleys mapgen that does one thing - forms the nodes of the river
04:46 paramat it's much cleaner and simpler for that to be part of genBiomes
04:46 hmmmmm by doing this you're able to isolate the chunks of code that are unique to that mapgen
04:46 paramat ok i understand
04:46 hmmmmm by isolating chunks of code that are different, you're free to combine pieces of code that are the same
04:47 hmmmmm sure, i agree it might be simpler
04:47 paramat it's much better to have an entire customised genBiomes for mgvalleys
04:47 hmmmmm but so would everything if it were written in such a concrete manner with no regard to abstraction or inheritance
04:48 hmmmmm how about this
04:48 hmmmmm i'll clean up mgvalleys and retain the same exact functionality without removing anything or breaking anything
04:48 paramat nope, i don't mind ores, decos being combined and centralised, genBiomes is difeferent, remember i understand it more than you
04:48 hmmmmm then you can be the judge of whether or not it was worth it
04:48 paramat (different)
04:49 paramat yeah agreed
04:49 paramat but the same may not be possible for mgwatershed or a space mapgen
04:49 hmmmmm i wouldn't expect it to be
04:50 hmmmmm maybe that's a place where specialization is actually necessary
04:50 paramat so, we still need the option of a custom genBiomes *in the mapgen file*
04:50 hmmmmm for 6/7 of the mapgens it'd suffice to inherit 90% of the code from MapgenV7
04:50 hmmmmm paramat, do you understand what the keyword "virtual" means?
04:51 paramat not much
04:51 hmmmmm ok.  that seems to be where the misunderstanding stems from.
04:51 hmmmmm i just want this to be clear
04:51 hmmmmm i am not taking away your toys
04:51 hmmmmm i'm just putting them back in order in your room
04:52 paramat lol
04:53 hmmmmm you should read up on 'virtual'.
04:54 paramat ok. until then could you confirm that a heavily customised genBiomes in the maogen file will still be possible?
04:54 hmmmmm ..yes
04:54 paramat (Chairman Mao gen again)
04:55 paramat ok cool
04:55 hmmmmm what i'm frustrated about with valleys is how it's cemented to this single biome implementation
04:55 paramat well i admit mgvalleys is a nightmare
04:55 paramat it hurts my head
04:56 paramat my mapgens are beautifully clean in comparison
04:56 hmmmmm i guess what i could do is simply not allow alternative biomegens to be used with mgvalley
04:56 paramat that should be ok
04:56 paramat it's very specialised, following the lua version
04:58 paramat mgwatershed may have to be this way too
04:59 paramat as my work on it is centred around the 'original' biome system
04:59 paramat it will certinaly have a heavily custom genBiomes that will need to be in the mapgen file
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05:15 paramat hmmmm just to be clear, river water should remain a base terrain node placed in terrain generation. there's stone, air, gravity-settled mass liquid below a specific y (ocean), and downhill flowing non-settled liquid (rivers), it's fundamental enough to be a 4th base terrain node
05:23 paramat biome definitions define a node to replace river water, in glacier biome rivers become ice
05:32 paramat ok so virtual is about a mapgen being able to override a function in the base class :)
05:33 paramat hmmmmm while you're at it, dustTopNodes can certainly be combined and centralised, it's identical in all (non-mgv6) mapgens, even mgvalleys and in mgwatershed too i think
05:40 hmmmmm no kidding
05:40 hmmmmm i'm convinced that 90% of each of the new mapgens can be condensed
05:43 paramat we've discovered 2 old PRs with 2 approvals that were somehow forgotten #3267 #3977 will merge very soon if no objections. Zeno`
05:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3267 -- Standardize the menu button order and sizes by SmallJoker
05:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3977 -- Add basic_privs setting by rubenwardy
05:43 paramat will merge with #4031
05:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4031 -- Android menu: Unified serverlist by kilbith
05:54 hmmmmm all three look good to merge
05:55 hmmmmm actually hold off on 3977
05:56 hmmmmm doesn't lua interpret a blank string as an "empty" value?
05:57 hmmmmm nevermind, it doesn't, i just checked.
05:59 Zeno` 3267 and 4031 seem fine (I was looking at them only about an hour ago actually)
06:00 Zeno` I have no comment on 3977 but don't object either :P
06:00 paramat hmmmm this is why i misunderstood http://irc.minetest.ru/minet​est-dev/2016-04-26#i_4595531
06:01 paramat ok will merge all 3
06:01 Zeno` yay
06:01 Zeno` then we can release tomorrow!
06:01 paramat nope, see game
06:02 paramat oh heh
06:02 Zeno` I try not to look at the notifications for _game :)
06:02 paramat anyway, freeze will probably be moved to end of weekend
06:02 Zeno` delayed until end of weekend?
06:03 paramat might be sooner
06:04 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest​/minetest/graphs/punch-card
06:04 Zeno` looks like some kind of weird eye test
06:07 paramat but which time zone, UTC?
06:07 Zeno` no idea... looking at it started to make me dizzy so I closed it
06:08 paramat looks like UTC or adjusted for local time, i can see euro and us shifts
06:11 paramat #4032 needs review, i'm confident about it though, well tested
06:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4032 -- Mapgen: Make 3D noise tunnels' width settable by paramat
06:13 paramat now merging to engine
06:13 hmmmmm wait
06:13 hmmmmm before you do that, could you remove the newliens you added between all the Mapgen<XX>Params *sp = ...;  this->spflags = sp->spflags?
06:13 hmmmmm newlines*
06:14 hmmmmm this is horrible
06:15 hmmmmm nevermind just merge as-is, i'm going to have to deal with all the merge conflicts
06:15 hmmmmm and you understand that by merging this commit you will break existing valleys worlds, correct?
06:18 Zeno` is it ok to break things like worlds and protocols in a minor releasE?
06:19 sofar not really :D
06:19 sofar depends on your definition of "breakage" too imho
06:19 hmmmmm as i recall, the valleys mapgen was added within this development cycle
06:19 hmmmmm so by definition it's unstable
06:23 Zeno` what will break?
06:24 Zeno` oh i see...
06:27 paramat merged
06:27 paramat i didn't merge 4032
06:28 paramat just the first 3
06:29 paramat yeah it will break any existing mgvalleys worlds using custom noises
06:29 paramat i have put a post in forum explaining this and the workaround
06:30 paramat and yeah mgvalleys was added during 0.4.13 and is unstable, better to correct this now rather than never
06:30 Zeno` yes
06:30 paramat i'll remove the newlines as you requested
06:30 Zeno` and it's not a huge breakage anyway (from what I can understand)
06:30 hmmmmm don't bother
06:30 hmmmmm there are too many changes to avoid the merge conflicts
06:31 paramat so your request is for avoiding conflict, not a code style issue?
06:32 hmmmmm right
06:32 paramat ok. btw it's ok for a dev to add own approval
06:33 paramat my approval counts
06:33 hmmmmm where does it say that
06:33 paramat it's just not a 'code review by someone else'
06:33 Zeno` it's always been that way
06:33 paramat we can have another label for code approval if you want
06:33 paramat we discussed this already
06:33 hmmmmm WE did not
06:33 hmmmmm it was me, gregory, and celeron
06:33 Zeno` approval by two core devs means only one other core dev needs to approve if the PR is made my a core dev
06:34 paramat c55 discussed it with you last time you objected
06:34 paramat yeah
06:34 Zeno` It's been that way for at least 2 years
06:34 hmmmmm okay
06:34 Zeno` But I don't see the point of adding your own "1 approval" label heh
06:34 Zeno` seems redundant
06:34 Zeno` we all know you're a core dev :P
06:35 hmmmmm is there an argument for the current system other than "i've done it that way for a long time" ?
06:35 paramat erm possibly redundant, but i don't add it if it's WIP
06:35 paramat so it's useful this way
06:35 hmmmmm you can have a "ready" label
06:35 Zeno` hmmmmm, c55 says it cuts down on unnecessary work (which I agree with)
06:35 paramat certainly we might need a new label for 'actual *review* by someone else'
06:36 paramat sorry, i mean 'actual code review by someone else'
06:36 Zeno` paramat if it's work in progress you could simply use the WIP label :/
06:36 paramat this label is for 'overall dev agreement', only 2 are normally needed
06:36 paramat yeah
06:37 paramat but it is flexible of course
06:37 paramat 1-3+ depending
06:37 hmmmmm i'll make a post on the forum about this and gather everybody's opinion.
06:37 Zeno` we should have a vote every time
06:37 Zeno` like a poll
06:37 Zeno` </sarcasm>
06:38 Zeno` do we really have to discuss this every couple of weeks?
06:39 paramat funny that it only became an issue when i added labels
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06:39 Zeno` All "more approvals" will do is slow things down even more
06:39 paramat i agree the use of labels had caused confusion and seems to upset some people 'you can't self approve!'
06:40 Zeno` paramat, if you hadn't been adding the "one approval" label to your own PRs nobody would have noticed :P
06:40 paramat approval != review obviously
06:41 paramat yeah i did wonder about whether a core dev actually uses that label or not, i think i'll stop to avoid the complaints
06:41 Zeno` if merging gets any more difficult doing things will increase from a year to merge a PR to maybe 5 years
06:41 paramat evenif it's otherwise helpful
06:41 hmmmmm is it really difficult to merge things?
06:41 hmmmmm i don't get it
06:41 paramat dev shortage
06:42 paramat other mtgame devs are very absent
06:42 Zeno` hmmmmm, it is if we start having votes and requiring 3 agreements etc
06:42 paramat it's mostly me running things
06:42 paramat (in game)
06:42 hmmmmm the agreements part scales depending on the scope and importance of the commit
06:42 Zeno` yeah of course
06:43 Zeno` but to have a blanket rule that all PRs need 3 approvals is silly
06:43 hmmmmm nobody said it needs 3 approvals
06:43 hmmmmm that's only for something farmap sized
06:43 Zeno` hmmmmm, you are effectively (if you're saying that a core dev still needs approval from two other devs)
06:43 hmmmmm two other devs are going to code review it, right?
06:44 Zeno` not necessarily
06:44 hmmmmm for moderate sized changes
06:44 hmmmmm small changes require only one approval/code review, and then trivial ones don't require any approval/code review
06:44 hmmmmm or at least that was the concept
06:44 paramat my own review of my mapgen code doesn't count? here it does as i understand it more than anyone
06:45 paramat but other PRs may be different and need 2 code reviews
06:45 hmmmmm if you weren't confident in your own code, why would you be comitting it in the first place?
06:45 hmmmmm you need to convince others that it won't break everything
06:45 paramat because we don't merge things alone
06:46 hmmmmm in any case, the approval system has done an incredible amount more good than harm
06:46 paramat oh i see
06:46 hmmmmm there are so many bugs that have been prevented
06:46 hmmmmm the earlier a bug is caught, the less effort it takes to track and the less harm it could ever cause
06:46 paramat actually, i very often open PRs not confident in the code
06:46 paramat many contributors do
06:47 hmmmmm if you think this is a restrictive system you haven't seem very many code submission processes
06:47 paramat anyway 'approval' != 'code review'
06:47 hmmmmm i have to deal with shit that's 100x more obstructive and hardly any more effective at work
06:47 paramat yeahi can imagine
06:48 Zeno` hmmmmm, we're not a company where we have resources and most of the people are around at the same time every day
06:48 * sofar wonders what hmmmm does for work
06:48 paramat we got it easy here
06:48 hmmmmm Zeno`, most of the people review at their own leisure even during business hours
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06:49 hmmmmm in general things get reviewed slower than minetest
06:49 Zeno` so a small 50 line PR will take a year to get a year to get reviewed and merged?
06:49 hmmmmm 3/4ths of the developers decide it's not their problem and then the other 1/4th might give you a single set of comments one day and then re-review the next
06:50 hmmmmm there are plenty of PRs that are still pending after years if that's what you mean
06:50 paramat self-approving is useful because then one can filter for 'two approvals', that filter doesn't detect that the author is a core dev and that therefore their approval is obvious. so i'm re-adding my approvals
06:50 hmmmmm it fell through the cracks
06:50 hmmmmm if you post it here i promise i'll give you an answer right now
06:51 hmmmmm i honestly don't think minetest's code submission process is bad at all.  it could certainly be a lot more restrictive, and slower, the only major issue is one of organization
07:01 jin_xi guys anyone up for bouncing some questions about collision detection and mt?
07:03 paramat hmmmmm code style-wise would you prefer there to be no spaces in mapgen parameter lists? i was seperating flags from noises from others for clarity but i don't mind them together
07:03 hmmmmm just do whatever makes sense
07:04 paramat ok
07:15 hmmmmm valleys mapgen is so fucked from an organizational standpoint
07:15 hmmmmm the terrain is intermingled with the biome results
07:15 hmmmmm i'm going to write that one off as a lost cause
07:16 hmmmmm no offense to whoever originally developed it
07:17 hmmmmm separation of concerns?  i'm too cool for that!
07:17 hmmmmm put everything into one big monolithic blob why not
07:17 hmmmmm it's totally modular this way
07:34 paramat yeah i can barely understand it
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08:12 Hunterz that mapgen will be cool in the minetest: https://camo.githubusercontent.com/a66d97c5011​5a099d8f3e4033bd80d0ce7a75bc6/687474703a2f2f69​2e696d6775722e636f6d2f46634c52374d712e676966
08:14 Hunterz its very realistic terrain generator... hills, erosion...
08:15 est31 joined #minetest-dev
08:15 paramat MC mod?
08:15 proller joined #minetest-dev
08:16 paramat looks like it, nice
08:16 Hunterz yes mc mod
08:16 Hunterz https://github.com/Team-RTG/1.​9-Realistic-Terrain-Generation
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08:19 est31 nice mapgen
08:19 est31 still, its GPL v3
08:19 est31 so not usable for minetest
08:20 est31 @ least not as builtin mapgen
08:20 VanessaE ..unless you ask for permission.
08:20 VanessaE (to relicense)
08:23 est31 https://github.com/Team-RTG/1.9-Rea​listic-Terrain-Generation/blob/dev/​.github/CONTRIBUTING.md#coordinates
08:23 est31 hehe they should check out minetest
08:23 est31 we have far more coordinates
08:23 est31 chunks, blocks, nodes, then this BS nodes stuff, etc etc
08:23 est31 i think we also have absolute and relative node pos
08:23 est31 relative inside a mapblock
08:24 est31 used for nodetimer serialisation i think
08:25 hmmmmm wow
08:25 hmmmmm a third party mapgen has almost 2000 commits alone
08:26 est31 hmmmmm, you know that we are comparing ourselves with the most successful game of this decade
08:26 hmmmmm i know
08:26 hmmmmm they have the sheer volume of people necessary to make that happen
08:26 hmmmmm look at all those people dedicated to nothing more than a single mapgen
08:27 est31 and the result looks pretty good
08:27 hmmmmm no kidding!
08:27 hmmmmm or, as celeron would say, "it's too large-scale"
08:28 hmmmmm paramat, keep on the lookout for changes in this branch https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/tree/biomegen
08:28 hmmmmm i've made only one commit so far, https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/a699e1ba8d19a5635f6309b45b3896762b2a1df7
08:31 paramat ok
08:32 Hunterz I like nature and landscape, but minetest miss more diverse landscape, mountains, hills, natural formations, rock, landscape seems too rounded, lack of erosion, it's a much smoother ..
08:33 hmmmmm kinda hard to do erosion when you are only able to generate one cubic chunk of map at a time
08:33 paramat indeed
08:33 paramat it would be simulated
08:33 hmmmmm i'm figuring ways out around that
08:34 paramat mgv6 has a simple mudflow erosion though
08:34 hmmmmm possibly letting the mapgen insert its own block generation phases into the emerge/generate pipeline
08:34 hmmmmm that way the mapgen can have as much surrounding "context" as it needs
08:43 paramat anyway, given time (and money to live on) i could do something almost as good as that MC mod
08:46 Hunterz mgv8
08:48 hmmmmm go down to the job centre and get a jobby job!
08:48 hmmmmm ok later i'm going to have a cuppa
08:49 paramat toodle pip!
08:49 paramat anyway i can't get a job, that's the problem
08:50 paramat such a mapgen would probably not use the biome API, it's flexibility makes it limiting
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09:16 paramat (can't get benefits either, so no income)
09:27 celeron55_ minetest - brought to you by crazy homeless people
09:27 celeron55_ i've got a new interesting catchphrase
09:32 * jin_xi throws cat
09:33 paramat heh
09:36 Hunterz why you can't get a job? what is your specialty, practice and skills?
09:37 Hunterz i think everywhere is hunger for programmers
09:39 paramat i can understand you asking that and not understanding why, and if i explained you would understand, but it's personal information i prefer to not share
09:40 est31 build your free home in this free game
09:40 est31 developers scratching their itch
09:40 paramat heh yeah
09:40 Hunterz ok
09:42 celeron55_ i'm still waiting for paramat's monetary support button to appear somewhere
09:42 paramat i'm really not a programmer, i only know very basic c++
09:42 paramat yeah i must sort that out, i hate asking for donations
09:48 Hunterz yours mapgens are awesome, i think many people will support you without asking...
09:53 paramat :)
09:54 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4056-- Add donate to paramat button by Hunterz
09:54 Hunterz lol :)
09:56 Zeno` paramat, how are the release notes going? :-o
09:57 paramat you mean time of freeze?
09:58 Zeno` nah I mean the change log that has to go with the release
09:58 Zeno` http://dev.minetest.net/Changelog
09:59 paramat oh crumbs i haven't even thought of that
09:59 Zeno` :-(
09:59 paramat during freeze i guess
10:00 Zeno` Looks like that time it was just an edited list from the git history
10:00 paramat anyway, it's not necessarily my job
10:00 Zeno` last time*
10:00 paramat yeah it's not very clear
10:00 Zeno` But I've assigned it to you
10:00 paramat lol
10:00 Zeno` xD
10:00 paramat i might make a clearer explanation of my own mapgen stuff
10:01 Zeno` yeah, so the changelog is only going to include mapgen changes? :)
10:01 Zeno` sounds fair enough to me!
10:06 paramat i'm actually in the mood for refusing tasks because i do so much, i can do a simplified summary of mapgen changes (because i understand it), the full log can be done by someone else :P
10:08 Zeno` most of it can be done with a script and sed
10:08 Zeno` And then just hand-edited
10:08 * Zeno` wonders who is good at writing scripts
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10:10 kilbith rubenwardy wrote a script to make the changelog : http://paste.ubuntu.com/16093226/
10:10 proller joined #minetest-dev
10:11 Zeno` there we go
10:11 Zeno` job done
10:11 Zeno` well, 70% done
10:11 kilbith the last one has been made with this one
10:12 Zeno` I would say so yes
10:12 Zeno` which is probably why it said my real name instead of Zeno (until I changed the wiki today)
10:16 * Zeno` wonders how kilbith answered a question that he had not seen
10:16 Zeno` must be psychic
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10:20 paramat it's past your bedtime!
10:21 hmmmm back pain
10:21 hmmmm couldn't fall asleep
10:21 kilbith Zeno`, because i'm omniscient
10:21 paramat aww
10:21 * Zeno` puts on the heavy rubber gloves and hazmat suit
10:22 Zeno` ready for your massage, hmmmm?
10:22 hmmmm just shoot me already
10:22 hmmmm i can't take this much longer
10:22 Zeno` I am a pacifist
10:23 Zeno` hmmmm, go to the Dr!
10:23 hmmmm lol doctor handed me a perscription for muscle relaxants
10:23 Zeno` and no pain killers to go with them?!
10:23 hmmmm it's hard to diagnose because it's kinda vague but i need to be more aggressive about this issue because it's really screwing my life up
10:23 Zeno` they're normally prescribed together :/
10:24 Zeno` yeah, I had a medical issue and had to keep hassling the Dr for a long time
10:24 Zeno` it was hard to describe also
10:25 hmmmm did you get it fixed eventually
10:27 Zeno` yes
10:28 Zeno` not fixed as in a permanent solution, but something that makes my life live-able again
10:28 hmmmm that's good to hear
10:29 Zeno` Yeah, it did take awhile though :(
10:29 hmmmm me, my life is sorta livable, if i don't get ambitious..
10:29 Zeno` oh mine was also, but when the condition expressed itself I was basically immobolised
10:29 hmmmm hard to focus at times and i get frustrated with the constant pain
10:29 hmmmm it's literally non-stop
10:29 hmmmm there is no 5 minute break
10:30 hmmmm i just want to tell it time out
10:30 Zeno` yeah
10:33 paramat *** looking at remaining milestones i'm moving freeze to sunday ***
10:33 paramat but feel free to get them done sooner :)
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11:23 gregorycu Fixer, can you please stop breaking my shit please
11:24 hmmmm he certainly fixed your shit
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12:19 gregorycu Bloody hell, another API doesn't work properly
12:20 gregorycu One should expect it shouldn't be this hard to rename a file
12:25 gregorycu It just failed to write the file because file explorer was in the middle of querying file properties when it went to rename
12:25 gregorycu Like
12:25 gregorycu Are you kidding me
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12:43 gregorycu est31: How fare thee
12:44 est31 Me fealst good
12:44 est31 my shakesperian english sucks
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12:47 gregorycu The only language skill I care about is C++
12:51 est31 It could be better
12:53 est31 but i can express the ideas i want with it
12:53 est31 and i can read most of the code, and if i cant i know where and how to look it up
12:55 gregorycu What about C++11
12:56 est31 90% of my c++ knowledge is thanks to minetest
12:56 est31 and minetst doesnt use c++11
12:56 est31 so very lacking knowledge
13:10 gregorycu So, my code now attempts to replace the file, and it that fails cause the file doesn't exist, it moves it
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13:41 gregorycu Time for me to look at the pathfinder
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13:55 Zeno` #4039 seems ready to merge. Will do so shortly
13:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4039 -- Map boundary check for /teleport by tenplus1
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14:01 Zeno` done
14:01 gregorycu Not many milestone items left now
14:01 gregorycu #4032 and #4024
14:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4032 -- Mapgen: Make 3D noise tunnels' width settable by paramat
14:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4024 -- Expiring particle spawners broken
14:01 gregorycu The rest are non-issues
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14:03 Zeno` hopefully the milestones don't move again. Heh
14:04 Fixer i'm still busy, can't check filerename thing yet for few hours
14:06 gregorycu Ahh good :)
14:06 gregorycu No rush, we are sailing towards the milestone nicely
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14:11 gregorycu &result.first->second
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14:40 nore gregorycu: what about writing a new file over the previous one, and only then remove the temp file instead of doing a rename? Would it work?
14:41 gregorycu What is the purpose of the temp file?
14:42 nore having a backup if MT crashes/is killed or if there is a filesystem error while writing the file
14:42 nore In order not to lose important data
14:43 gregorycu So, we recover from the crash, and then what?
14:43 gregorycu If the temp file exists, do we use its contents instead?
14:43 nore Ehm, it's something that has to be done manually
14:44 nore The user (most likely server owner) sees there was a problem, and renames the temp file
14:44 gregorycu Why server owner? This is the favourites file
14:45 gregorycu The goal of the changeset wasn't to fix the potential to fix updates not getting saved, but the potential for the whole file to be wiped
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14:47 gregorycu We can retain the temporary file, but what if we cannot write to the temporary file
14:47 nore well, this function was introduced mostly for map_meta.txt
14:48 gregorycu Don't we have a standalone database engine?
14:48 nore I don't think so
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14:52 nore Could we avoid removing the file perhaps?
14:53 nore Or, isn't there any way to do an atomic rename?
14:54 gregorycu The problem isn't atomicidy
14:55 gregorycu It's the replace operation which has issues
14:55 gregorycu On windows it has to be a delete  + move
14:55 gregorycu the delete can "fail"
14:56 gregorycu There is a function that apparently protects against this, however the destination file must exist
14:56 gregorycu As the code suggests
14:57 nore What does it mean, that the delete can fail?
14:57 nore I mean, precisely
14:57 gregorycu It means windows can defer the delete until later
14:57 gregorycu Which causes the move to fail
14:58 nore What about then: rename the old file, then do the rename, then remove the old file that has the old name
14:58 nore (Yes, this is even hackier)
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14:59 gregorycu Yeah, there is probably a series of steps that will get us there
15:00 nore Is the rename immediate though?
15:00 gregorycu No
15:00 nore Uh
15:00 gregorycu I believe the rename can also be deferred
15:01 gregorycu It's not a very good system
15:01 nore Can't we set some kind of flag to tell the IO function to be blocking until the delete/rename actually happens?
15:01 gregorycu No, but we can check ourselves
15:01 gregorycu What we should really do is use a database engine where all these specific filesystem/OS issues have been solved
15:02 * nore agrees
15:02 gregorycu And rely on the more stringent database ACID guarantees
15:02 gregorycu We really don't want to reinvent the wheel here
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15:05 Zeno` Well it works fine for POSIX systems
15:05 Zeno` so maybe Windows is the problem :D
15:05 nore http://stackoverflow.com/questions​/1261269/how-to-open-file-in-windo​ws-while-not-blocking-its-renaming <-- looks bad
15:05 gregorycu We are still managing the transactionality ourselves
15:06 gregorycu But yeah, windows generally sucks at this stuff
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15:07 nore So, I guess the best solution would be to do the following things:
15:07 nore 1. Write the temp file
15:07 nore 2. Open the output file (erasing its data), and writing new contents over it
15:08 nore 3. Remove the temp file
15:08 gregorycu Except that 2 requires manual intervention should it fail
15:09 nore What do you mean?
15:09 gregorycu With the current system, should we crash in the middle of writing, we are in a good state
15:09 Zeno` I think you should go back to the code you had yesterday but add a check to ensure that the destination file exists (if not just create an empty file) before calling ReplaceFile
15:09 gregorycu If we were to crash at stage 2, we would have a half written file
15:10 nore Ah, indeed
15:10 nore What does ReplaceFile exactly do btw?
15:11 Zeno` I'm not sure if the Windows devs even know that for sure
15:11 gregorycu Zeno`: But the destination file may exist because it is held open for a few milliseconds because of a delayed delete
15:11 gregorycu Wait, nevermind, I think
15:12 gregorycu ReplaceFile does a lot of stuff
15:12 gregorycu A lot of low level calls, copies file attributes across, permissions etc.
15:13 Zeno` If there is a delayed delete then checking if the file exists should, I would imagine, return false even if the file is still there waiting for the final delete
15:13 gregorycu I'm not so sure
15:13 Zeno` If the OS can't handle this then everything breaks
15:14 gregorycu Bold statement
15:14 Zeno` Bold but true
15:14 gregorycu The OS will disallow you from opening the file if it's marked for deletion
15:14 Zeno` yes
15:14 Zeno` as it should
15:14 Zeno` but will it disallow you creating a file with the same name?
15:15 gregorycu Yes
15:15 gregorycu Unlike on linux
15:15 gregorycu The file is still there, linked to the name
15:15 gregorycu When you go to open, you get a permission denied error
15:16 Zeno` Surely there is a documented way to handle this
15:16 Zeno` I mean it's not uncommon for some other process to have a file open temporarily
15:17 gregorycu Yeah, you can still delete, you just can't quickly recreate the file
15:17 Zeno` And having apps write 1000 lines of code to handle something that is so common doesn't make sense
15:17 Zeno` let's use Qt
15:18 Zeno` That will handle it properly xD
15:18 Zeno` actually if it does, perhaps its source code provides a hint
15:22 celeron55_ gregorycu: what is this file thing you are talking about?
15:22 gregorycu I'm not sure you want to know
15:22 celeron55_ i want to make sure you are not breaking something i did
15:22 celeron55_ if it's a new thing, then i don't care
15:23 gregorycu #4042
15:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4042 -- Use ReplaceFile to rename files on Windows (not rename) by gregorycu
15:25 celeron55_ ok, as long as you are careful to not break the working posix implementation, i don't care
15:26 celeron55_ i agree that the windows one has been basically a catastrophe
15:30 gregorycu Yeah, all a fan for a better solution
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16:14 gregorycu No obvious error with the pathfinder code
16:14 gregorycu Which means I'll actually have to do context-sensitive analysis
16:14 paramat nore PilzAdam sfan5 ShadowNinja this is very masochistic of me but i'm proposing a new grass texture game#1025
16:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1025 -- Default: New 'dirt with grass' textures by paramat
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16:15 * paramat hides
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16:16 PilzAdam paramat, I really don't care about the grass texture anymore
16:19 PilzAdam paramat, I give this C1ffisme my vote on this issue; he seems to like discussing useless stuff
16:20 VanessaE paramat: for once, I actually kinda-sorta like it :)
16:20 VanessaE (which can't be a good thing :P )
16:20 gregorycu Dear me
16:20 gregorycu Night all
16:21 paramat it's Casimir's Voxelgarden texture modified
16:22 VanessaE (at least, the "vox7" variant shown in the first post, anyway)
16:22 paramat PilzAdam that's wise for your sanity, do you care about game at all?
16:22 paramat yeah 1st screenshot is the proposal
16:22 PilzAdam yes, of course I do
16:22 sfan5 paramat: so many screenshots which ones compare the current and new one?
16:23 paramat first post, proposal and current are labelled
16:23 paramat PA ok :) just wondering
16:24 ShadowNinja Merging Gradle conversion...
16:26 paramat celeron55_ it's such an important texture i would like you to be reasonably happy with it, or at least not hate it
16:26 sfan5 looks pretty much the same to me
16:27 nore paramat: the new one looks good to me
16:28 nore although the current one is fine too
16:28 nore so, +1 if you want to merge, but I don't really care
16:29 celeron55_ paramat: i really don't care because i don't think i have been asked about the previous ones either for a long time
16:30 paramat ok
16:30 celeron55_ it doesn't look awful
16:30 paramat phew
16:32 paramat thanks all for looking, i'm rather shocked at the lack of opposition. but will merge later
16:33 paramat lol
16:37 crazyR btw paramat my comment was'nt in opposition to your suggestion lol. I do like your suggestion under the current capabilities of minetest.
16:38 paramat ah you're ryan-nolan. no problem i didn't take it as opposition
16:40 crazyR Lol yeah i should probably add my alias in brackets to avoid confusion lol. Just though id mention i#as i sometimes say things and it come's across different to what I meant :)
16:40 paramat replied
16:43 crazyR thanks
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17:01 paramat added screenshot of side texture, which is almost identical to the current
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17:05 ShadowNinja #4046
17:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4046 -- Update and rework Android app by ShadowNinja
17:05 sofar can I make a proposal about textures & sounds?
17:06 sofar and models, too, for that purpose
17:07 sofar I think it's taking a long time to get past little one-by-one texture updates
17:07 sofar I'm wondering if we can somehow do it way more efficiently
17:08 sofar e.g. something like having a `visuals` branch and collectively merging it before release at once
17:08 sofar so that it doesn't stop the code review
17:09 sofar and settle on an actual *timeline* for discussing all the proposed changes and alternatives
17:09 sofar since it's always going to be a bit of a beauty peageant
17:13 paramat textures would have to wait to just before release to be considered?
17:13 sofar something like that
17:13 sofar e.g. they would get merged before freeze
17:14 sofar it's probably too late now to change the rules, but maybe we can do something like that for the next release
17:16 ShadowNinja Merging #3824.
17:16 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3824 -- Fix race on thread creation (fixes OSX thread tests) by ShadowNinja
17:16 paramat hm. not sure it would be more efficient, it might just mean a huge amount of argument all at once, instead of spread out over a dev version
17:18 paramat personally i would find it irritating to have to wait 8 months to have a texture considered, stuff should be discussed as it arises, because that's the 'right time' for it
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17:51 paramat any input on game#1060 ? specifically the 2nd commit
17:51 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1060 -- TNT: Fix multiple explosions erasing drops by sofar
17:54 est31 wow #3994 got merged without having conflicted #4033
17:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3994 -- Upgrade Android build to Gradle build system by ShadowNinja
17:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4033 -- Fix issue #4005 and update depends by MoNTE48
17:57 ShadowNinja est31: It did conflict actually, but only on two lines (I modified the line below the cURL version change, so Git marked them both as conflicting).
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18:02 est31 ShadowNinja, if you want to review a change, you can have a look at #4037
18:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4037 -- Pathfinder cleanup by est31
18:03 est31 note however that it does not intend to leave behind a perfect pathfinder
18:03 est31 i just want to alleviate the biggest aches reading the code made me feel
18:03 hmmmmm hold on a minute
18:04 hmmmmm i thought a release was going to be soon
18:05 est31 well idk the gradle pr went in as well didnt it
18:05 est31 and my pathfinder changes are even older i think they were just part of a separate pr ... if pr age matters anything
18:06 sofar the walkable fix is pretty crucial
18:06 sofar without it mobs can't walk through grass plants
18:06 est31 and it has a big speed improvement
18:06 sofar I'm thinking we should not make "unable to update cost map" an error
18:07 sofar it's a legitimate "there's really no path" case
18:07 est31 thats stuff i wanted to avoid in my pr
18:07 sofar yes, agreed that would be a new PR
18:07 est31 i wanted to be very cautious with stuff i do
18:07 sofar I've seen my target position code pick the top of a tree
18:07 est31 the first two commits should be completely non functional
18:08 sofar and it's obvious that the sheep can't go there
18:08 est31 they are added so that its super easy to review them
18:08 est31 hmmmmm, the patch is not complicated in any way, just read through it.
18:09 est31 and the suggested read order is to read every commit separately
18:09 est31 well I'm going now, bye
18:14 hmmmmm now why is gradle an 'upgrade' to ant exactly?
18:14 ShadowNinja hmmmmm: Ant support has been droped by the Android developers -- all further development happens on Gradle.
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18:15 hmmmmm ..swell
18:15 ShadowNinja And of course, gradle is easier to use and integrates some usefull functionality like vector compat and (experimental) JNI support.
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19:08 nore Should we close #4040?
19:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4040 -- Update tab_multiplayer.lua by Emon-Omen
19:29 Zeno` #3388 should be closed also
19:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3388 -- Add hunger by BlockMen
19:31 Zeno` If somebody wants to resurrect it then they can, and make a new PR, but atm there is no reason for it to sit there because it cannot be merged
19:34 Zeno` I think I'll just close it
19:34 Zeno` Will do so in 10 minutes
19:38 Zeno` Actually... no reason to wait :)
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20:17 nore There are way too many changes I want to do that are incompatible :/
20:18 nore Well, old maps could be converted, but old clients would not be able to connect to new servers
20:18 nore (I guess, it is only a protocol bump after all)
20:20 nore But that includes: BKVL serialisation, configurable map coordinates size; changing the map saving format (especially, how the coordinates of blocks are stored), client-side translations, natural/artificial lighting instead of day/night
20:21 nore Well, maybe it could be for 0.5...
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21:04 user3208 Can someone explain how Minetest does its meshing?
21:07 user3208 Does it just make a quad for each face exposed to air, or does it do more advanced techniques like combining faces to achive faster rendering?
21:08 KaadmY just adds a quad per exposed face i think
21:08 sofar content_mapblock.cpp
21:14 celeron55_ there's not much that can be done, and the remnants of any advanced techniques like that are rotting away because they're practically useless
21:14 celeron55_ but that's the file
21:19 jin_xi i'm hacking around trying to use greedily meshed blocks for collision detection, but they can ignore different textures and light values
21:19 celeron55_ yeah in use cases like that optimizing the mesh becomes way more useful
21:20 jin_xi but still its kinda hard with dynamic map...
21:21 user3208 What about merging adjacent block faces of the same type and using 3d lightmaps to implement lighting from nearby torches? Would that be possible?
21:21 celeron55_ jin_xi: you might want to check what buildat does: https://github.com/celeron55/buildat​/blob/master/src/impl/mesh.cpp#L823
21:21 jin_xi it does try and tile some faces
21:22 jin_xi thanks will do
21:22 celeron55_ it basically has rather huge mapblocks and then just optimizes the physics mesh inside each one individually
21:22 celeron55_ it doesn't make a mesh; it makes a list of overlapping boxes
21:23 celeron55_ and feeds them to urho3d's physics component which is basically bullet physics
21:24 jin_xi and this is done for every block alongside the mesh for drawing?
21:24 celeron55_ user3208: tough with irrlicht; feel free to attempt to rework
21:25 celeron55_ jin_xi: yes; i don't remember anymore but maybe they're generated only if the player goes close enough to them
21:25 celeron55_ feeding a lot of stuff into a real physics engine isn't exactly a free operation
21:26 KaadmY it isn't?
21:26 celeron55_ it takes time, and cannot be done in a different thread, at least in urho3d
21:26 celeron55_ well, again, if i remember anything right
21:30 celeron55_ that doesn't really matter though, don't believe me
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