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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-01-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 red-001 I don't think meshs are need for trapdoors?
00:01 sofar nope, they work fine as is
00:01 sofar the door mesh is nothing more than a glorious nodebox anyway
00:01 sofar it needs to be a mesh only because nodeboxes can't texture larger than 1x1x1
00:02 sofar pushed a fix for the bad light inside the upper door node
00:02 sofar it's better now
00:03 red-001 why was check_player_priv renamed?
00:03 sofar because I intend to use it for other ways to access the node as well
00:03 sofar so the name can be more generic
00:04 sofar most of the code was actually entirely rewritten
00:04 sofar I started out from blank
00:04 red-001 so made can_access
00:04 sofar I wanted to make sure I wasn't copying old code that needed cleaning up
00:05 sofar yeah, it's just a name anyway
00:05 sofar the "access" priv needs to go into this as well
00:05 red-001 yes
00:05 sofar since that's about to get merged into minetest_game
00:05 sofar plus I need to somehow mod in my keys mod as well
00:05 sofar s/mod/patch
00:06 * red-001 needs to start up github for windows
00:06 sofar are steel doors not diggable by hand? I thought they were...
00:07 red-001 shouldn't can_dig be local to the file so the code is not duplicated?
00:07 sofar it is local
00:07 sofar ah you mean, defined only once?
00:07 red-001 yes
00:08 sofar then you'd have to lookup nodedef each caller
00:08 sofar not that that's so bad
00:08 sofar yes, I had it that way first
00:08 sofar there's not enough doors in the game to make a big difference
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00:32 * red-001 needs sleep
00:45 paramat bunch of minor mapgen fixes i will merge soon https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3556
00:47 paramat all trivial
00:48 sofar yeah, pretty much
01:29 paramat thanks for looking, now merging
01:39 paramat merged
01:42 paramat next i would like to improve (non-mgv6) caves by using a method used in c++ valleys mapgen: placing biome material on the cave floor in cave entrances, no longer bare and ugly and more a part of the world surface
01:43 sofar paramat: any time to look at the aspen/apple noise params?
01:45 paramat i need to consider those, should appletree and aspen be equal in distribution or should aspen be fewer in number?
01:45 sofar as I made it, aspen are a smaller percentage
01:45 sofar the median is slightly below the middle
01:46 sofar I found reasonable spreads whereever I looked, I'd say it's 25-75 or 33-66 or so
01:46 paramat i'm thinking some areas pure appletree, many areas mixed, should there be pure aspen areas though?
01:47 sofar at the far end of the probability, there will be almost 95% aspen
01:47 sofar so that's pretty much an aspen forest exclusively
01:47 sofar it'll be rare
01:48 sofar paramat: I've noticed that there's a huge grassland biome without any trees
01:48 sofar don't know which one it is
01:49 sofar but I was wondering if we could introduce random, small clusters of aspen in those
01:49 sofar very sparsely planted
01:49 sofar anyway that's a different patch
01:50 paramat ok now looking at noises
01:51 sofar toddler dinner time
02:14 paramat ok made the world all-deciduous forest. i feel appletrees should dominate and many areas should be appletree-only, then other areas a varying mix. 66% 33% by number seems good. will tune noise params
02:47 paramat ok added my suggestion to the thread. world is feeling richer due to the logs and mix of trees
02:52 paramat now it's my feeding time bbl
02:52 kaadmy imo apple trees should be very spare, and be rare. if hunger's ever added, you can just collect several stacks of apples
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03:32 sofar kaadmy: "apple trees" are just the oak trees name
03:37 kaadmy ah
03:45 sofar uhhh
03:45 sofar how come seed doesn't change if I delete map* in a world folder?
03:45 sofar o_O
03:46 kaadmy there's a cfg file, world.txt iirc that has the seed
03:47 sofar map_meta.txt has it
03:47 sofar and I deleted it
03:47 sofar but every time I started that world again, it kept the same seed
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04:34 sofar paramat: would you mind if I clean up 'saveschems' and fork it to minetest-mods?
04:34 sofar paramat: it's way too useful, we should really try and take care of it together
04:35 paramat ok go for it
04:37 sofar I will try and convert the existing schems to the format I used for aspen, since it's so darn easy to make trees that way
04:37 sofar hopefully it'll help others
04:38 paramat i have a local copy that gets changed a lot, the version at my github is probably a little behind
04:38 paramat ok
04:41 sofar ok, let me do some cleanups on it first.
04:41 sofar you know what, lowering the trunk x2 actually looks pretty decent
04:41 sofar so, I'll just do that
05:13 paramat ok
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13:51 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/fpSRahc.png
13:51 RealBadAngel live meshes in formspecs
13:52 RealBadAngel lotsa of inventory images code to be trashed soon
13:53 est31 I guess its connected with an fps drop
13:53 est31 but I'm too tired to discuss with you
13:53 RealBadAngel rather no drops
13:54 est31 (btw I havent tested whether paramat's bugreport is true whether there is a real fps drop from your commit)
13:54 est31 but drawing fixed images is far more easier than drawing meshes
13:54 est31 at least I assume
13:54 RealBadAngel main goal of this one is to get rid og preload item visuals
13:55 RealBadAngel so theyre not needed anymore, huge save on ram
13:55 est31 thats probably true
13:56 est31 but paramat will be against it I guess simply because it comes from you
13:56 RealBadAngel idc
13:56 est31 he'd want you to not do meshes but instead place single faces of them
13:56 RealBadAngel he may be conservative and keep to mt spirit
13:56 RealBadAngel i wont
13:56 est31 because its "minetest style"
13:57 RealBadAngel im coding modern game
13:57 RealBadAngel not the 80's
13:57 nrzkt RealBadAngel, i prefer having a formspec thing to have mesh viewer rotating the mesh :D
13:57 est31 even in the 80's it was totally ugly to place single face
13:57 RealBadAngel nrzkt, look closer
13:57 nrzkt and let users use this new formspec thing to do more things
13:57 RealBadAngel the meshes are rotating
13:57 est31 <RealBadAngel> the meshes are rotating
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13:58 est31 paramat will -1 it, and c55 will close it
13:58 RealBadAngel atm i let selected or hoovered ones to rotate
13:58 est31 just because they are rotating
13:58 RealBadAngel lol
13:58 RealBadAngel no problemo
13:58 RealBadAngel that will land in minetest HD then
14:00 RealBadAngel to make things clear, i dont completely care bout paramat's or c55's opionions
14:00 est31 probably its really the best idea if you forked it
14:00 RealBadAngel and i will code things only based on my vision and taste
14:00 RealBadAngel i dont wanna fight
14:01 RealBadAngel theyre having different one, so its ok
14:01 est31 minetest is open source, forking is part of open source life
14:01 est31 closed source games cant fork they have only one version
14:01 est31 minetest can have hundreds of versions and tastes
14:01 RealBadAngel ofc
14:02 RealBadAngel but in the long run mainstream will suffer
14:02 RealBadAngel but thats not my problem
14:02 est31 probably yeah
14:02 est31 minetest should be split up imo
14:02 est31 one lib for the network
14:03 est31 one for the graphicd
14:03 est31 graphics*
14:03 est31 etc
14:03 est31 then forks can keep common parts
14:03 est31 and improvements of e.g. network can be shared between all
14:07 est31 and the deserialisation and database code can be used by minetest mapper scripts
14:10 RealBadAngel est31, that may be propably good idea
14:10 RealBadAngel but im talking about replacing old, faulty and dead slow code
14:10 RealBadAngel and replacing it with native meshes
14:11 est31 you want to render them in real time
14:11 RealBadAngel i do
14:12 RealBadAngel 100 nodes rendered on one frame more?
14:12 RealBadAngel is that a big problem?
14:13 RealBadAngel drawtime thingy doesnt move with that
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14:31 RealBadAngel nrzkt, can you edit your comments on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3547 ?
14:32 RealBadAngel defining functions virutal for that class is not a subject of this PR
14:32 RealBadAngel you made look this PR buggy while its not
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14:36 RealBadAngel btw, dead code to delete: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/​blob/master/src/content_cao.cpp#L136
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14:37 RealBadAngel and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/​blob/master/src/content_cao.cpp#L280
14:37 RealBadAngel both those CAO's are not used
14:38 RealBadAngel (items are genericCAO)
14:45 nrzkt RealBadAngel, done
14:47 RealBadAngel k
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18:13 paramat hmmmm celeron55 and all, any comments on the suggested fix for this important issue? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3530 '21-25% FPS drop with shaders disabled due to vertex tangents commit' ie split the renderer
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18:16 * Fixer hears echo
18:17 RealBadAngel paramat, i said i can do that when needed, what for you need c55 at all?
18:17 RealBadAngel have you excavated another box without shaders support?
18:18 paramat since it's important issue i'm asking for other expert opinions
18:19 RealBadAngel no need to repeat that opinion each time im on the channel
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18:24 paramat there's no opinion, just a question. the suggested fix needs discussion
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18:32 paramat i decided to discuss this before i saw you were on-channel
18:32 RealBadAngel im reorginizing now that stuff, i can do that
18:33 RealBadAngel mainly, i can split things into textures (non shaders.old way) and meshes, native irrlicht way
18:35 RealBadAngel but frankly i am afraid old way will be slower
18:35 RealBadAngel it is already
18:36 RealBadAngel thx to that render-to-texture magic way
18:36 RealBadAngel if something is native in engine, why to use magic tricks to show it?
18:37 RealBadAngel if you cant, it means you just dont know how to use the engine :P
18:38 paramat i see. the main issue though is fps with shaders off, i guess the slowness of formspecs won't eliminate the 25% gain in fps
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18:39 RealBadAngel main goal of the meshes for items change is to free ram
18:40 RealBadAngel now each item needs extra texture to be shown
18:40 RealBadAngel more items, more ram needed
18:41 paramat i see. do you need vertextangents for inventory meshes?
18:41 RealBadAngel also, to get the texture, costly process was called
18:41 RealBadAngel i do need that vectors for almost everything
18:41 RealBadAngel its like you have asked me do i need sun
18:41 RealBadAngel yes i do
18:42 RealBadAngel do you need mapgen noise gens? or other stuff?
18:44 RealBadAngel such things are basic for everything with textures
18:45 RealBadAngel nothing is possible without it
18:46 RealBadAngel i had to cheat to get absudly costly tanget space before
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18:46 RealBadAngel i mean calculated out of 2 vertices only, in shaders
18:46 paramat yes
18:48 paramat before splitting the renderer lets get some other devs' input on the idea
18:53 hmmmm oh no please don't split that
18:54 hmmmm the better idea would be to find the root cause of the slowness instead of splitting things into slow and slow-but-not-quite-as-slow
18:54 hmmmm the best idea would be to use a different god damn graphics engine though
18:55 RealBadAngel hmmmm, i saw you mentioned that some time ago but i afraid its not that easy
18:55 RealBadAngel each and every triangle is using just more data
18:56 RealBadAngel 2 more vectors per each vertice
18:56 RealBadAngel thats why it is slower
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18:57 RealBadAngel its all about numbers
18:57 paramat since you (RBA) seem to be starting a HD branch or fork, it might be simpler and less work for you and everyone just to revert vertextangents in master
18:57 RealBadAngel more we "see" more data we got
18:57 RealBadAngel paramat, you may want to trash all my commits, youre free to do so
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18:58 RealBadAngel just go on or shut up
18:58 RealBadAngel other way youre playin flat world madman just
18:59 RealBadAngel and frankly you shall start branch for museum workers all around globe :P
19:00 sofar you guys remind me of "the red and the blue" claymation
19:05 paramat heh. i'd prefer to keep vertextangents but also fix the non-shader slowness, if that's possible. reading the forum there are players who are, erm, very keen to see their fps return
19:06 RealBadAngel as i said, i can do that but only by separating
19:06 RealBadAngel fancy mind tricks using templates are out of discussion
19:07 RealBadAngel if something is good for all cases it means is worth shit
19:08 RealBadAngel simple, old, gold rule
19:14 paramat okay. well, hmmmmm suggests a split renderer may not be the thing to do, and i somewhat trust his judgement
19:14 RealBadAngel its not his code, he havent touched a sigle key coding it
19:15 RealBadAngel his knowledge is next to google one
19:15 RealBadAngel same as yours :P
19:15 RealBadAngel but you know the best
19:16 RealBadAngel what if i make a commit with separation and you will try it just?
19:19 RealBadAngel meanwhile, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3547
19:20 paramat well, i'm asking for consideration of the method before you start a lot of work. i do tend to trust c55 and hmmmmm more than you even on graphics
19:20 RealBadAngel paramat, c55 lately is using way more advanced methods in his farmesh branch
19:20 RealBadAngel say hello to VBO code
19:21 RealBadAngel and the same way say good bye to your low end boxes
19:23 RealBadAngel frankly, demand to be compatible with something more than 10 yrs old in gaming is like demand to be compatible with dinosaurs
19:23 RealBadAngel sorry, i dont like to fuck with them l;)
19:24 RealBadAngel OpenGL 1.2
19:24 RealBadAngel Release date: March 16, 1998
19:25 paramat my box is an intel core i5 with intel haswell integrated graphics :)
19:25 sofar what does android have nowadays?
19:25 RealBadAngel wonder if all the fridges and washing machines support 1.2 already
19:26 RealBadAngel some of the watches already do
19:26 RealBadAngel saw minetest running on the watch already
19:26 Fixer even my crappy laptop with Pentium-M 2GHz with Intel Integrated has OGL 2.2 iirc
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19:26 Fixer and it already has red blocks issue
19:30 RealBadAngel fixer, im am developing now separate shaders for both GLSL and ES
19:30 RealBadAngel they have to be different
19:30 sapier great :-)
19:31 sapier so we might be able to use ogles2 soon?
19:31 RealBadAngel no way to have same for both
19:31 RealBadAngel yes
19:31 RealBadAngel i am able to use shaders for postprocessing for GLSL and ES already
19:31 sapier on the other hand as of speed there doesn't seem to be a difference, at least on my device
19:31 RealBadAngel @paramat, its called SEPARATION
19:42 paramat i'm just trying to discuss calmly and sort this out, it's tough work with your current attitude =P
19:44 Calinou <sofar> what does android have nowadays?
19:44 Calinou OpenGL ES 3.0, 3.1
19:44 Calinou (well… Irrlicht is stuck on ES 2.0 since forever)
19:44 Calinou <+RealBadAngel> no way to have same for both
19:44 Calinou we could switch to ES 3.0 for everything, it's plenty
19:48 sapier Calinou: we use ogles1 and as I mentiones about 15 minutes ago I don't see any benefit on ogles2.0 atm do you know about any benefit 3.0/4.1 might have?
19:49 sapier just a higher number ain't exactly a valuable benefit ;-)
19:51 Calinou Irrlicht has support for OpenGL ES 2.0, it's even mentioned in the Minetest settings
19:51 Calinou sapier, having shaders?
19:51 Calinou OpenGL ES 1.0 is fixed-function, nobody should use it anymore.
19:51 paramat input on this is needed, but my feeling is it's best RBA starts a branch or fork, and we revert vertextangents here
19:51 Calinou OpenGL ES 2.0 is still very limited (source: reduz, the lead developer of Godot)
19:51 Calinou OpenGL ES 3.0 is liberating compared to 2.0
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19:53 sapier Calinou: many ppl disable shaders on pc too ;-)
19:54 Calinou you should work on OpenArena, probably
19:54 paramat btw c++ valley's mapgen may be merged soon, last chance for reviews or objections https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3508 < hmmmm
20:01 hmmmm I can't find any real objections
20:01 hmmmm if you guys like it and it works well, then so be it
20:02 hmmmm lots of copying from mapgen to mapgen though, I'll try to see if I can't generalize a couple of the most repetitive functions sometime
20:03 paramat ok thanks
20:03 hmmmm love how there's exactly 1,337 additions - wondering if duane intentionally did that
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21:01 RealBadAngel hmm, showin native meshes instead of textures is circa 500 lines code less
21:02 RealBadAngel is that enough for you to like it?
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21:03 RealBadAngel you have always pointed me to accomplish the task with minimal code needed
21:08 RealBadAngel anyway im pretty close to paramats demand
22:10 celeron55 what
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22:31 RealBadAngel celeron55, im talkin about implementing advanced stuff, like VBO for example
22:31 RealBadAngel youre smuggling it in without any comments
22:32 RealBadAngel do you expect me to collect all the "non mt spirit" comments for ya?
22:33 celeron55 what the hell now again
22:33 RealBadAngel not any hell, please calm down
22:33 celeron55 i am not doing anything whatsoever at the moment
22:34 celeron55 and that branch will not be merged without further reviews and tests
22:34 RealBadAngel i am trying now to replace textures with meshes
22:34 celeron55 sounds dumb
22:34 RealBadAngel you know meshes are native
22:34 celeron55 textures aren't native?
22:35 RealBadAngel making scene to get a texture is wise?
22:35 RealBadAngel when you can just display it?
22:36 celeron55 well i don't really care about that
22:36 RealBadAngel ofc you dont
22:36 RealBadAngel thats why its fucked up
22:36 celeron55 make good code and don't create regressions for older hardware or something and i guess it's fine
22:37 RealBadAngel im polishing the code now, need a few days
22:37 sofar I think code speaks
22:37 RealBadAngel scales are weird for any case
22:37 RealBadAngel thats my problem
22:38 RealBadAngel i just raised the idea becuase i know it wil work
22:38 RealBadAngel and i love the selected item to spin :)
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22:57 RealBadAngel sofar, howgh
22:57 sofar howgh to you too
22:57 RealBadAngel but ive seen that too many times
22:58 RealBadAngel mt is F16 flying bombmers codebase
22:59 RealBadAngel i mean "dont touch"
22:59 sofar fuck, the f16 is one of the best fighter jets in the air still
22:59 RealBadAngel ask hmmmm
23:00 sofar they've been trying how long to make a cheap, better replacement for it? and failed how many times? :)
23:00 RealBadAngel dont ruin my joke
23:00 sofar you may need to adjust metaphors ;)
23:00 RealBadAngel hmmm is involved here :P
23:00 sofar point taken, though
23:01 RealBadAngel anyway, we need to advance
23:02 RealBadAngel endless fiddling with bugs is a no waY
23:02 RealBadAngel i do really love your code on the custom drawtypes
23:03 sofar the fences?
23:03 RealBadAngel faster and saves shitload of ram
23:03 RealBadAngel connected nodeboxes
23:03 sofar I'm going to try and finish that one up this week
23:04 sofar I had it on a backburner for a bit thinking about other stuff
23:04 RealBadAngel but one con
23:04 sofar but I think I can finish it
23:04 RealBadAngel youre good to go with pipes, tubes etc
23:05 RealBadAngel you will fail with mesecons climbing walls
23:05 sofar yeah, mesecons is semi-special since it attempts to mimic minetest redstone
23:05 RealBadAngel thats why i told u to contact nore
23:05 RealBadAngel he made that math
23:05 sofar and redstone can connect to 9 other nodes, not 6 or 5
23:05 sofar frankly, I don't think I want to fix it
23:06 sofar I'd be happy if it connects 6-ways
23:06 RealBadAngel if you wont i will do that
23:06 RealBadAngel thats crucial imho
23:07 sofar there's no 3d model you can make that can cross an infinitely small line with a density larger than 0
23:07 RealBadAngel since a few weeks im takin all the steps ive promised earlier
23:07 RealBadAngel one by one
23:07 sofar anyway, premature
23:07 sofar maybe we will figure out a way
23:08 RealBadAngel just ask nore
23:08 sofar but first i have to implement the matching API
23:08 sofar way more important
23:08 RealBadAngel its a real fucked up math
23:08 RealBadAngel see open source redstone
23:09 RealBadAngel creator of it, female, said she went drunk one day
23:09 RealBadAngel next day she woke up she have workin ones
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23:11 sofar wait, who?
23:13 RealBadAngel eloraam
23:14 sofar sorry, I don't know the old coders of lore ;)
23:15 RealBadAngel eloraam is creator of RedPower
23:15 RealBadAngel she left the scene in sake of creating own game
23:16 RealBadAngel some folks recreated the mod called RedPower
23:17 RealBadAngel and it is open source
23:18 RealBadAngel i am coder, 40+, i miss ability to create complex logic machines in mt
23:18 RealBadAngel in mt ive build a tree farm, it took me a few months to build
23:19 RealBadAngel shitload of wires and gates
23:19 RealBadAngel mt is not capable of running such shit at all
23:20 RealBadAngel in mt it is possible to build emulations of 8 bit CPUs even
23:20 RealBadAngel thats what makes MT epic
23:21 RealBadAngel EPIC even
23:21 sofar I had not suspected you to be an old fart like me... ;)
23:21 RealBadAngel i am
23:22 RealBadAngel i was coding candies before most of contributors to mt was even born
23:22 RealBadAngel so i have right to shout
23:23 sofar I prefer to use less words and confuse the less wise with well-placed cryptic messages
23:24 Megaf funny, you all still adding more and more stuff to Minestest, I forked Minetest and all my work so far was removing all that stuff
23:24 RealBadAngel youre pretty new to this place
23:25 Megaf my fork + my subgame = 9.5M
23:25 sofar I wasted a year or two on Bukkit
23:25 Megaf compiled
23:25 RealBadAngel you will sooner or later get to the point i am
23:25 RealBadAngel total frustration
23:25 RealBadAngel i am devoted to mt
23:26 Megaf What I have removed so far, stupid useless bitmap fonts, mapgen flat, v5, v7 and soem other
23:26 RealBadAngel 4 yrs already
23:26 RealBadAngel youre new
23:26 RealBadAngel so pick
23:26 Megaf I have removed support for Redis, LevelBD and Dummy
23:26 Megaf there is really lots of redundant stuff in Minetest
23:27 Megaf and, RealBadAngel, shaders is disabled on my fork, and so is minimap
23:27 sofar I love the minimap
23:27 Megaf and I'm having a hard time to find all related files/line to that stuff to properly remove it
23:27 sofar I could love bumpmapping but it's so darn hard to make textures work well, and I don't like the default textures much
23:27 Megaf All that I mean is. stop adding features to minetest
23:28 Megaf and begin removing old/redundant code
23:28 sofar nothing wrong with a stripped down fork imho
23:28 Megaf fixing the BLOODY MEMORY LEAKS
23:28 sofar well those fixes should go upstream
23:28 Megaf you can't even fix old bugs and are adding 3D support for fecks sake
23:29 Megaf maybe make a good branch for Minetest Stable and a branch called Minetest Experimental where all that stuff can be tested
23:29 sofar that's already been proposed and accepted
23:29 sofar so in reality you can start pushing your cleanups and leak fixes to master
23:30 sofar I suppose RealBadAngel actually should create the branch for his work already
23:30 Megaf sofar, I will not
23:30 Megaf zeno has done some clean up, and so sapier did, but they seem like lone players, with not much support from other devs
23:31 sofar I suppose they need your help?
23:31 Megaf $ du -hs minetest/fonts/
23:31 Megaf 15Mminetest/fonts/
23:31 Megaf 15 MB in bloody ttf fonts
23:31 sofar why stand at the sidelines screaming foul if you are wearing the team outfit?
23:31 Megaf I'm just asking that people do basic and easy stuff
23:31 Megaf step by step
23:31 sofar it's OSS, don't ask. You can do.
23:31 Megaf and stop trying to bloat up Minetest with these features
23:32 Megaf sofar, I can not help, I can't even code, yet I managed to do this cleanup
23:32 Megaf s/can/can't
23:32 Megaf ops
23:32 Megaf can not is correct :)
23:32 sofar you obviously can
23:32 sofar it really, doesn't, take, much
23:33 Megaf sofar, I already tried to proposed changes, did submit pull requests
23:33 Megaf but all the time minetest devs seems to know more, know whats better
23:33 Taoki joined #minetest-dev
23:33 Player2 joined #minetest-dev
23:33 Megaf I've seen two devs that wanter to reduce code, optimize and hunt bugs, sapier and zeno
23:33 Megaf and that's about it
23:34 Megaf zeno more than sapier perhaps, sapier came up with the 3D support
23:34 sofar I don't think anyone is against optimizing and reducing bugs
23:34 Megaf it works great indeed, yes it does and I used it a lot. But for now, is just bloatware
23:35 Megaf sofar, how many people you think will be in favour of removing mapgen flat, v5, v7 and the other that I don't recall the name?
23:35 Megaf singlenode
23:36 sofar ah, that's a very good point
23:36 Megaf all mapgens can make flat terrain, that makes mapgen flat redundant, v6 was created only because v5 had a bug, but it had nice features so they decided to keep it
23:36 sofar I can see v5 getting removed
23:36 Megaf v7 was created because v6 had a bug, it couldn't make mountains
23:36 Megaf sofar, is bloat on top of bloat
23:36 sofar totally agreed
23:37 Megaf now, think about of hours of work put into making each magen
23:37 rubenwardy singlenode has a use. v5/v6/v7 has purposes, however it should be easer to remove them for a build
23:37 rubenwardy the dummy backend is used by CTF and is very fast
23:37 sofar more #ifdefery ?
23:38 Megaf now, about databases, sqlite is fantastic, and it needs very few adjustments to make it faster and use less space for the db, like enabling vacuum
23:38 rubenwardy and useful for testing mods
23:38 rubenwardy database backends are more of a server thing, and shouldn't be included in the client by diffault (other than a good all round one)
23:38 Megaf rubenwardy, on my tests dummy wasnt any faster than sqlite properly set up
23:39 sofar I thought only sqlite is enabled for the client by default?
23:39 Megaf in real life tests I eman
23:39 Megaf mean*, actually playing on a server using dummy
23:39 rubenwardy ~web title https://github.com/rubenwa​rdy/capturetheflag/pull/36
23:39 ShadowBot rubenwardy: Recommend the Dummy backend by asl97 · Pull Request #36 · rubenwardy/capturetheflag · GitHub
23:39 Megaf and that's other thing I question, do devs actually play Minetest?
23:40 rubenwardy sqlite3 (syncronous & ramdisk) 1.105558        dummy 0.012
23:40 rubenwardy actually, that's only for deleted
23:40 rubenwardy o
23:40 rubenwardy acta
23:40 sofar I'm no dev, but yes, I actually play
23:40 rubenwardy actually, it's only faster at deleting, not at editing
23:41 rubenwardy Most of this could be solved by adding C++ mod support - core mapgens could be compiled modules
23:42 Megaf I'm developing my own fork now, I have been running MT servers for about 4 years and playing as long
23:42 rubenwardy less bloat is good, I guess.
23:42 Megaf other thing, Lua is great indeed, but Python *might* be better
23:43 rubenwardy heh
23:43 Megaf and now, contradicting myself, why not add support for modding done in Python too? Keep the lua thing, and python, Irrlicht already supports it AFAIK
23:44 rubenwardy "Irrlicht already supports it"
23:44 rubenwardy what?
23:44 rubenwardy Yes, there may be wrappers allowing you to add scene nodes etc
23:44 rubenwardy But that would only be applicable to client side modding, not to Minetest's server mods
23:45 Megaf ok, unofficial biding for Python https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrlicht_Engine
23:45 rubenwardy Where is your fork, Megaf? megaf/minetest?
23:45 Megaf rubenwardy, nope, is not even on Megaf account
23:45 Megaf I don't want to make it public just yet
23:46 rubenwardy I think that the minimap is useful for gameplay if they made it better. Ie, the ability to require the crafting of an item to use.
23:46 Megaf and at the moment it is very dirty, the dbs/magen removal was very dirty (since I can't code)
23:46 Megaf rubenwardy, I like the minimap, a lot actually, I just think is not the time to have it
23:46 Megaf it could have been done via a mod perhaps
23:46 rubenwardy slow
23:46 Megaf not adding compiling time and memory use
23:47 Megaf so add features, yes, but make room for it first
23:47 Megaf or something line that
23:47 sofar client-side modding has been desired for a long time
23:48 sofar it could certainly render a minimap if done correctly
23:50 Megaf sofar, bottomline is, I'm kinda frustrated with Minetest and I don't see my suggestions getting accepted by Minetest dev team anytime soon, so I'm forking it, selling it, making money from it, and donating part of the money back to Minetest
23:50 Megaf so far*
23:51 sofar so assuming you're properly adhering to the licenses, I'd say you've found a perfectly valid way of contributing to the project in your own way
23:52 Megaf I'm not sure about the licenses, but I am giving all the credit to Minetest and c55
23:53 Megaf I didn't create the thing, just made it smaller and faster
23:53 rubenwardy You also have to share the full source code of the engine to anyone that buys/has a executable version of your fork
23:53 sofar let me buy a copy from you :)
23:54 Megaf rubenwardy, the source code is already available and will always be
23:54 Megaf as long as Minetest is Open Source
23:54 lemon joined #minetest-dev
23:55 rubenwardy your version needs to be too
23:55 Megaf I'm charging only for my work hours and the compilation
23:55 Megaf rubenwardy, that's what I mean, my version will be Open Source and has it's code available as long as Minetest is too
23:55 Megaf and Irrlicht, and OpenGL
23:56 rubenwardy ?
23:56 sofar well no
23:56 rubenwardy I don't understand what you mean
23:56 sofar you are not allowed to refer to minetest.org for source code
23:56 rubenwardy You have to publish modifications, even if they're removals
23:56 sofar right
23:57 rubenwardy (also, minetest.net)
23:57 sofar irrlicht is not GPL, you don't need to give people the source code for that
23:57 sofar but minetest is
23:57 Megaf ok, rephrasing everything. The source code of my fork is available. Credits do go to Minetest
23:57 sofar do you have it on github?
23:57 Megaf so I am giving the source for my fork and telling where to get the source for Minetest
23:57 Megaf sofar, yep,
23:58 Megaf not on Megaf
23:58 Megaf I have to go now, good night everyone :)
23:58 rubenwardy o.

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