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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-11-26

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Time Nick Message
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06:53 Zeno` Hi all. Just here to hand in my official resignation
06:54 Zeno` Maybe I shall return one day (I had a great time working with all the devs and other people on this project). I just don't seem to have the interest at the moment. *sigh*
06:57 Zeno` Removed myself from the repo (You left minetest. You will be missed.)
06:57 * Zeno` sheds a tear
06:58 * Zeno` waves
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07:05 kahrl nooo Zeno` :(
07:05 * sofar waves back
07:05 kahrl I hope it wasn't the Sisyphean nature of the irrlicht abstraction layer that burned you out
07:18 sofar ho hum. why does minetest.get_meta() not return nil if the meta field isn't present?
07:24 kahrl sofar: at the API level, node metadata is always considered present
07:25 kahrl sofar: but it may be empty
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07:25 kahrl (if it's empty, nothing will be stored in the database)
07:25 sofar I'm getting a '0' back on nodes that don't have the property
07:25 sofar so I can't use that to distinguish between nodes that have an int property set and ones that don't
07:26 sofar I know the meta stuff is always present
07:26 sofar this is about a specific int value inside the meta fields
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07:27 kahrl check if get_string(name) returns an empty string
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07:27 sofar I'm sorry, I just had convulsions
07:27 sofar lol
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07:29 sofar I'd rather use '1' as minimal value then, doing a totally odd workaround like that... shudder (if it even works, that's hella ugly)
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07:32 kahrl I guess it would be nice to have a 'contains' method in NodeMetaRef
07:32 kahrl (though it could technically implemented in lua using to_table(), that's quite wasteful)
07:32 sofar I can see why you'd be worried about returning nil
07:33 sofar probably break a few mods
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07:33 sofar maybe add warnings to the code if a property is asked that isn't present in the nodemetaref?
07:33 kahrl yeah, changing the behaviour of get_int at this point is out of the question
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07:36 kahrl warnings would just lead to warning spam, even though in most cases there's nothing wrong
07:37 sofar if you think that returning a value for a requested field is OK, sure, then it's just spam
07:37 sofar I'd argue that it's a bug
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07:37 sofar or, bad programming of API's
07:37 sofar maybe I'm too picky
07:37 kahrl sofar: the API is what is has been for several years
07:38 kahrl it can't be changed now since many mods rely on it
07:38 sofar never changing an API means you never improve
07:38 sofar but sure, I get it
07:39 kahrl breaking every mod ever is not an improvement
07:40 sofar without a warning you have no data that mods are relying on that behavior
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07:41 sofar I'm not that well into the core code ... I suppose I can see if I can try it myself to add a warning
07:41 kahrl it's inevitable with mods that rely heavily on node metadata, like technic
07:41 kahrl (not saying that I checked that technic specifically relies on it)
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07:46 sofar hmm, NodeMetadataList::get() nicely returns NULL
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07:47 sofar it's probably in the lua bindings then
07:52 kahrl add haskell bindings to minetest and make get_int returns a Maybe Int :P
07:52 kahrl return*
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07:53 sofar ahahaha
07:53 sofar someone was talking about javascript
07:53 sofar tbh lua is fine...
07:55 sofar it's too late for me to care...
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09:04 realbadangel__ mods like technic are using meta a lot
09:04 realbadangel__ pipeworks and mesecons too
09:05 realbadangel__ and those  are the most complex mods for mt out there
09:14 realbadangel__ breakin api will piss lotsa folks
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15:42 est31 bye Zeno.
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16:32 est31 :(
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17:29 VanessaE_ sorry to see you go, Zeno`  :(
17:49 hmmmm ahhh noo zeno` :(
17:50 hmmmm lol I guess we're not getting a graphics engine-independent minetest
17:50 hmmmm back to the drawing board...
17:52 VanessaE_ well I guess the bright side there is that by now, it would have been such a big rebase effort that someone would have to rewrite it anyway.
17:55 who_wants_some minetest development pace is too fast
17:55 who_wants_some sorry, wrong channel!
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18:34 realbadangel__ est31, i have analyzed the possibilities, only solution is real client side modding
18:34 realbadangel__ and im not experienced enough on that field to introduce it
18:35 realbadangel__ jeija on the other hand made a PR with proof of concept
18:35 realbadangel__ https://github.com/Jeija/mi​netest/tree/clientside_mods
18:36 realbadangel__ if somebody make this in, i can move further with client side shaders
18:37 realbadangel__ atm i dont wanna invent another override file
18:38 realbadangel__ ive read the code for all overriding stuff, like noise, textures
18:39 realbadangel__ all is just wrestling, freestyle
18:39 realbadangel__ imho real client side mods are the only solution
18:41 Calinou yeah, we should have it some day
18:41 Calinou even Quake modders eventually stopped doing everything server-side
18:41 Calinou they introduced CSQC ;)
18:41 Calinou and now they cram more and more things into it
18:42 Calinou (because clients are often more powerful than servers…)
18:42 realbadangel__ ofc clients are more powerfull
18:42 realbadangel__ we do buy ROG boxes
18:43 realbadangel__ or build them on our own
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18:43 realbadangel__ server can run on a hostin space
18:43 realbadangel__ client is about performance and FPS
18:44 realbadangel__ and NICE lookin
18:45 Calinou my VPS is 1 CPU (2 GHz), 1 GB RAM
18:45 Calinou my laptop is 8 threads (4C/8T), 8 GB RAM, and a dedicated card…
18:45 who_wants_some my fear is when it becomes client-side now the clients will have even more bad stutters
18:45 who_wants_some or crashes
18:45 Calinou that's the server owner's problem if they distribute poorly performing mods
18:46 Calinou crashes are preventable, but work needs to be done on that
18:46 realbadangel__ who_wants_some, when we will have client side modding you will get mobs, carts etc
18:46 realbadangel__ with no lags
18:46 realbadangel__ atm its impossible
18:46 who_wants_some I hope
18:47 who_wants_some please fix liquids over ignore and slow mesh gen that causes big stutters (ap-tly)
18:48 realbadangel__ liquids flow is not my area of interest at all
18:48 realbadangel__ i mean physics
18:48 realbadangel__ i do gfx only
18:49 who_wants_some texture tear problems *cough*
18:49 who_wants_some or 3166
18:49 realbadangel__ thats hardware
18:49 realbadangel__ and 3166? ooops ;)
18:49 realbadangel__ im stuck
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19:05 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Last release: 0.4.13, Aug 20 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
19:05 who_wants_some he is stuck
19:05 who_wants_some he needs some new idea from outside
19:05 who_wants_some "suggestion"
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19:06 RealBadAngel i know how it should work, but i dont know how to code it
19:07 RealBadAngel i started the work, its far enough to be considered a workin solution
19:07 RealBadAngel it just have some flaws which i cant fix atm
19:07 VanessaE_ it works, it improves things, and doesn't break anything, right?
19:07 VanessaE_ and nothing is worse off
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19:08 VanessaE_ then it should be merged.  The double-update can be solved later.
19:08 RealBadAngel propably i could but with spending lotsa time which i could use to develop other things
19:08 VanessaE_ better two nodes' worth of updates than 7 entire mapblocks
19:09 RealBadAngel i gave up dancing with double-update and picked shaders again
19:09 VanessaE_ hmmmm:  ^^^^^
19:09 who_wants_some that is slow
19:09 RealBadAngel so in two days i made mod definitions of shader use
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19:09 RealBadAngel you can try now water and lava
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19:10 RealBadAngel somebody already said that lava is "piece of art"
19:10 est31 yippee server is up
19:10 RealBadAngel and i really think it is
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19:11 RealBadAngel just compile and watch it :P
19:11 est31 I try to keep out of these discussions
19:11 est31 some will love it, some will hate it
19:11 rubenwardy Calinou, putting more code client side is bad if it makes the server vulnerable to cheating
19:11 est31 well, it depends
19:11 est31 if the server side code trusts the inputs, then yes.
19:11 RealBadAngel est31, can you take a look on Jeija's client side modding proof of concept?
19:11 est31 that code is years old
19:11 rubenwardy est31, "makes the server vulnerable to cheating"
19:12 RealBadAngel est31, it works
19:12 rubenwardy it works doesn't mean it's good
19:12 RealBadAngel code doesnt have age
19:12 rubenwardy hmmmm was working on a prototype
19:12 RealBadAngel it works or not
19:12 rubenwardy but he stopped for some reason - fixing stuff elsewhere
19:12 rubenwardy celeron55 wanted to do it after farview
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19:13 rubenwardy RealBadAngel, it's not black or white.
19:13 RealBadAngel but neither its grey
19:13 rubenwardy if something "works" but it's unreliable, then it might as well not work
19:13 RealBadAngel or at least it shouldnt
19:14 who_wants_some server needs some cheating protection already, there are hacked clients already :(
19:14 RealBadAngel atm development is stuck
19:14 Calinou rubenwardy, obviously it's not going to be cheat-sensitive code
19:14 Calinou but Minetest is pretty vulnerable to cheating as it is right now
19:14 rubenwardy who_wants_some, fly and fast are vulnerability
19:14 RealBadAngel see?
19:14 est31 fast is no vulnerability
19:14 est31 you can just adjust the speed setting
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19:14 rubenwardy because the server doesn't do proper client-side prediction and server reconcilliation
19:14 RealBadAngel we are all needing help from each other
19:14 rubenwardy yes, to cheating
19:14 who_wants_some rubenwardy, so server needs to check player movement anyway
19:14 Calinou est31, everyone disables anticheat actually :P
19:15 Calinou it's buggy, constantly resets innocent players
19:15 rubenwardy anticheat isn't real server side reconcilliation
19:15 est31 Calinou, then dont complain that minetest doesnt have anti-cheat
19:15 est31 but that its anti-cheat is buggy
19:15 est31 those are different things
19:15 est31 but yeah fly and noclip still remains
19:16 hmmmm i think anticheat should be a mod
19:16 rubenwardy Why?
19:16 hmmmm it's ancilliary functionality to begin with
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19:17 hmmmm its inclusion into the core implies that minetest is a "game" where people can "cheat" whereas really that all depends on the modpack installed
19:17 RealBadAngel i think we have started a storm in a glass of water
19:17 RealBadAngel hi Taoki :)
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19:54 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Last release: 0.4.13, Aug 20 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
19:54 rubenwardy I agree that farview as it is last time I used it looked out of place. But, WIP
19:56 hmmmm [02:44 PM] <RealBadAngel> c55 and hmmmm are too fucused on pure code, both treating it as kinda excercise, to show own abilities
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19:56 hmmmm no, it's because I realize that talking about things is useless because the code is not getting done
19:56 hmmmm minetest is a big project for sure but it needs even more development
19:57 hmmmm talking is bad because it makes you feel like you're accomplishing something when you aren't
19:57 est31 it looked great IMO last time I looked at it, just had two bugs.
19:58 est31 first is hard to describe
19:58 est31 I guess some driver thingy or so
19:58 est31 second is that it allocates tons of memory
19:58 est31 but the second was promised to get fixed
20:00 who_wants_some_ est31, is it possible to upload to GPU not 40 meshes in very limited time (causing big stutter), but spread them over time, so stutter is say 1ms per each rendered frame?
20:01 RealBadAngel hmmmm, for the single commiter thats nearly impossible now to get something done without touchin a few other areas of experitse
20:01 RealBadAngel and thats what im talkin about
20:02 who_wants_some_ est31, i've tried very simple flatgen mod and I still got pretty big stutter when new meshes generated (if trust F5 graphs), it is basically 15ms -> 30ms -> 15ms (that is too big and not acceptable)
20:03 RealBadAngel i can know everything about shaders (and i know that you dont know a single shit bout it). and vice versa, im trying to get something done in threads and all i get are lols
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20:04 RealBadAngel even when what i did to get my idea workin was copy paste of existing already solutions
20:04 est31 yea I guess the shaders I did were shit too.
20:05 est31 and your shaders are great
20:05 RealBadAngel hah, i could do better :P
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20:06 RealBadAngel but seriously est31 what shaders code you made?
20:06 RealBadAngel no offence, just asking
20:07 est31 tbh I haven't coded any real shaders yet
20:08 RealBadAngel so what have you meant?
20:08 hmmmm real developers don't pidgeonhole themselves into a single technology subset
20:08 RealBadAngel we are not real
20:08 hmmmm saying that you can't do threads but you can do shaders is ridiculous
20:09 hmmmm you are not real maybe
20:09 RealBadAngel well i am, sort of, a nick name :P
20:09 est31 I have expressed wrongly, it should have been "the shaders I would do would be shit"
20:09 est31 haha
20:09 RealBadAngel est31, you have tested water and lava
20:10 RealBadAngel can u express your opinion now?
20:10 RealBadAngel and here
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20:11 est31 I said its nice, but I dont know whether it should be the standard shader.
20:11 who_wants_some_ is someone has binaries for windows with new shaders, pls share with me, i want to see it on ati
20:12 RealBadAngel those are not standard shaders
20:13 RealBadAngel could be if mt would go HD and fine lookin
20:13 who_wants_some_ and slow working
20:13 RealBadAngel theyre pretty fast
20:14 RealBadAngel and moreover they eliminate some nasty visual bugs
20:14 RealBadAngel like different looking of block with same texture
20:15 RealBadAngel +s
20:15 RealBadAngel point of my latest PR is that, any node can have own shader
20:16 RealBadAngel independent from the engine at all
20:16 who_wants_some_ that is useful
20:17 RealBadAngel i wanted it first to be able to send shader code over net as a mod
20:17 RealBadAngel i dont think that could be a security problem but whatever
20:17 RealBadAngel client side modification pack is better place for it
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20:18 RealBadAngel client is having good box and gpu, then hes choosing candies
20:18 RealBadAngel no matter the server
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20:27 RealBadAngel so, for starters, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3391
20:27 RealBadAngel what are your votes?
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20:30 RealBadAngel above pull with will need client side modding for the feature to be complete ofc
20:31 RealBadAngel but both sides will require those definitions
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20:57 loggingbot_ joined #minetest-dev
20:57 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Last release: 0.4.13, Aug 20 2015. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
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21:12 RealBadAngel splitty day, i will ask again tomorrow ;)
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