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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-08-15

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Time Nick Message
00:05 kaeza joined #minetest-dev
00:17 est31 joined #minetest-dev
00:18 est31 @ shader discussion, copying the shaders before RBA's recent changes and switching back and forth shouldn't be too hard
00:19 VanessaE that sounds fair
00:19 VanessaE will that mess with that "tangent space" stuff he's talked about recently?
00:19 VanessaE (I assume not)
00:20 est31 if you replace the whole files, no
00:21 sloantothebone joined #minetest-dev
00:30 hmmmm est31:  sure, am aware, but they aren't really too relevant
00:31 hmmmm est31:  will look at your PR
00:31 hmmmm about shaders
00:31 hmmmm games typically have one shader for each effect
00:32 hmmmm the way RBA crams them all into a single shader is kind of ...
00:32 hmmmm not good
00:32 VanessaE bad.
00:32 hmmmm so any slowness added for one effect has effects on everything else
00:32 hmmmm when I start doing shader work I do intend on fixing this and making a way more modular setup for shaders
00:33 hmmmm also another quick thing we could do before release is run the shader optimizer on this
00:34 VanessaE there's a tool for that?
00:35 hmmmm have a look at this http://aras-p.info/blog/2010/09/29/glsl-optimizer/
00:35 VanessaE huh. TIL.
00:35 hmmmm oh god, reddit speak
00:36 VanessaE heh
00:36 VanessaE could be worse.  I could be jabbering in txtspk :P
00:46 est31 hmmmm, can you make the next larger thing you work on be client scripting?
00:46 hmmmm that was the plan
00:46 est31 good
01:00 paramat joined #minetest-dev
01:02 paramat will push #3061 soon
01:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3061 -- Defaultsettings: Increase client_mapblock_limit to 5000 by paramat
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01:02 VanessaE paramat: see what I said about that? (it was a joke :P )
01:02 hmmmm i honestly think 5000 is too small as well
01:02 hmmmm i think the default should be unlimited
01:03 VanessaE well, how much mem would 10k take?
01:03 hmmmm not really much
01:03 hmmmm also you guys are underestimating how small a mapblock really is
01:03 hmmmm like paramat said before, an 80x80x80 area is already 125 of those
01:03 hmmmm think about how many mapblocks are air and have no mesh
01:03 VanessaE indeed.
01:03 hmmmm those count against it too
01:04 hmmmm also just wondering
01:04 hmmmm this limit is client-side only
01:04 VanessaE right
01:04 hmmmm how does the server know that the client dropped the mapblock in question?
01:04 est31 yes it does
01:04 est31 its sent to the server
01:04 hmmmm that is
01:04 hmmmm what is*
01:05 VanessaE my joke btw was that, since cubert(5000) is a bit over 17, I offered up the cubes of 16, 17, and 20 in case someone complains that 5000 is not a perfect cube :)
01:05 est31 hmmmm, you agree to the client leaking then?
01:05 VanessaE (4096, 4913, or 8000)
01:05 hmmmm est31:  ???
01:05 est31 how would it be if the server never unloaded blocks
01:05 paramat ah
01:05 hmmmm how is it "sent to the server" though
01:05 hmmmm what packet does this use
01:06 VanessaE but that said, something like 15625 (cube of 25) might be usable, if slightly excessive.
01:06 est31 hmmmm, https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/blob/a8e238ed06ee8285ed4459e9deda31​17419837f6/src/client.cpp#L428-L458
01:07 est31 TOSERVER_DELETEDBLOCKS
01:07 hmmmm okay, good
01:07 hmmmm just wondering
01:10 paramat i'll leave that PR to ferment a little longer then
01:10 hmmmm what do you think
01:10 hmmmm imho i think the default should be unlimited
01:11 VanessaE isn't it already?  or rather, wasn't it, before the 1000 went in?
01:12 VanessaE the problem with making it unlimited is that mem usage just grows and grows, unless you timestamp the loaded blocks and just throw out the oldest stuff after some amount of time
01:12 paramat unlimited means the original problem of excessive memory use
01:12 est31 basically, a leak
01:12 VanessaE yep
01:12 VanessaE well not *really* a leak
01:12 hmmmm it is definitely not a leak
01:12 VanessaE but the effect is the same.
01:13 hmmmm if you continuously use every loaded block the effect is the same
01:13 est31 its keeping around data not needed anymore
01:13 hmmmm it doesn't, after a set amount of time it frees the unneeded data
01:13 est31 it isn't technically a leak
01:13 est31 but it is a leak the same way a lua error which stops the server process is a crash
01:14 hmmmm so then reduce the default block unload timeout
01:14 proller joined #minetest-dev
01:15 hmmmm i recognize the new unload method as a decent way to keep memory usage below a certain threshhold.  but I would not say that things were broken before this
01:15 VanessaE I thought the existing timeout just didn't work?
01:15 VanessaE (hence my previous comment)
01:15 hmmmm if it just didn't work, then we'd fix that bug
01:15 est31 it did work
01:15 hmmmm not ignore it and add a new method
01:15 est31 yes
01:15 est31 agreed
01:16 est31 but the new method is better
01:16 paramat the timeout is not a good way to limit memory use because it doesn't take into account how fast a player is travelling, for example constant flying
01:16 est31 ^
01:16 VanessaE paramat: in a way it kinda does.
01:16 hmmmm but the thing is
01:16 est31 its a bad way just like taking into account where a player is right now
01:16 VanessaE the faster you travel, the less time you spend in a given area, ergo the less stuff that should (theoretically) load for those areas.
01:16 hmmmm this doesn't actually keep memory usage below a threshhold
01:17 hmmmm just adds a theoretical maximum
01:17 est31 its a rough estimate
01:17 est31 yes
01:17 hmmmm there could be a really nasty mapblock made up of a checkerboard pattern of solid nodes and non-solid nodes
01:17 est31 yea
01:17 hmmmm which would theoretically take up the most mesh space possible
01:17 est31 but still, better than a timeout
01:20 est31 (the timeout makes total sense for servers, btw)
01:21 est31 for servers you limit player count
01:21 est31 not how long a player can play
01:24 est31 hmmm, feel free to add RAM useage measurement to mapblock storage
01:24 est31 would be a great addition
01:25 est31 what do people think should the shader regression issue be addressed before 0.4.13
01:25 est31 or should we wait until we find a new shader maintainer
01:25 est31 I'm neutral about this
01:29 est31 and about which default value to use, we should make it based on measurements
01:30 est31 If 100k blocks take less than 500 MB in total for the whole clients, I'm ok with a limit of 100k
01:30 est31 client*
01:32 paramat i'm flying fast over mgv7 right now, with the 5000 value, total memory use due to mt has stabilised at 1.4GB
01:32 hmmmm i think it would be pretty hard to calculate the memory usage of a mapblock since half of it is stored in irrlicht
01:33 hmmmm we don't have to have a shader "maintainer" - if you are able to fix the shaders, then do so
01:33 est31 this small patch makes you benchmark the number of loaded blocks : https://gist.github.com/ano​nymous/ef351c1b9d8222dead32
01:33 hmmmm why do people think they need to be pidgeonholed into a certain piece of code?
01:36 est31 s/shader maintainer/somebody who fixes this/
01:36 est31 bye!
01:38 VanessaE paramat: that's...  rather a lot.
01:38 paramat now i exit to menu, memory use drops to 1.3GB, it should frop further surely
01:38 paramat (drop)
01:38 VanessaE what's the measure on a fresh start?
01:39 VanessaE 1.3 GB is a fuckton
01:39 paramat 0.7GB was initial
01:39 hmmmm yeah I agree
01:39 hmmmm there's something else going on taking up too much memory
01:39 VanessaE so wait, it's hanging onto 600 MB after shutdown?
01:40 hmmmm we know from massif that a lot of it is noise buffers and mapblocks
01:40 hmmmm but there's no way noise takes up 700MB
01:40 paramat here i'm using my 'system monitor' watching total memory use
01:41 paramat 700MB before starting mt
01:42 paramat flying fast over mgv7 rises to 2.1GB and stabilises (with setting 5000)
01:42 paramat exit to menu falls to 2.0GB ?
01:42 hmmmm were you using v6 for the first test?
01:42 VanessaE for me, it's talking 75 MB at start, about 250MB after the world loads, 343 after it stabilizes, before I start exploring.
01:42 paramat no mgv7
01:42 VanessaE (vanilla mt_game, mgv6)
01:43 paramat so 1.4GB for 5000 mapblocks, seems excessive?
01:43 VanessaE rises to around 720 MB if I just pan around without walking from the spot I spawned at.  403 MB if I exit to menu
01:44 VanessaE so for me, it's hanging onto over 300 MB.
01:44 paramat obviously something isn't being cleared when exiting to menu
01:45 paramat but from previous tests the amount cleared when exiting to menu varies from almost all to almost nothing
01:45 paramat oh and i have a timeout of 3 mins
01:46 VanessaE correction, it's around 410 MB, not 720 (that was X, got it mixed up).
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02:02 paramat now with limit 1000 mapblocks, mgv7 singleplayer, total mt memory use stabilises at 0.7GB. exit to menu, falls to 0.2GB, more cleared this time
02:05 paramat i should increase my 'client unload timeout' to neutralise it's effect..
02:23 paramat .. not much difference. mgv7 singleplayer, mapblock limit 5000. stabilises at 1.5GB, exit to menu falls to 1.2GB
02:24 paramat re-enter world, falls to 0.8GB
02:28 paramat start flying fast again, rises unusually fast to 2.1GB and stabilises
02:30 paramat exit to menu again, falls to 1.4GB
02:41 paramat so for this release i think 5000 is about right, uses up to 2GB if re-entering worlds
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02:55 VanessaE bbl
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06:21 hmmmm hmm
06:22 hmmmm if a block gets force unloaded, should it be removed from the active block list, or should i allow the environment step to remove it?
06:25 nrzkt do the two actions together ?
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06:42 nrzkt will push #3054
06:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3054 -- Remove unused function getEvent from connection.{cpp,h} by nerzhul
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07:25 VanessaE hmmmm: still here?
07:29 hmmmm yeah?
07:31 VanessaE just reminding that #1425 needs fixed before release also
07:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1425 -- Deleting extraneous entities from a mapblock deletes PLAYERS also
07:31 VanessaE and whatever else is responsible for causing players to sometimes "lose contact" after connecting to VE-Creative
07:31 nore joined #minetest-dev
07:32 hmmmm wtf how old is this bug
07:32 VanessaE over a year.
07:33 VanessaE and this whole shit about not being able to safely run rollback because there's no way to selectively keep events out of it
07:34 hmmmm so aside from clearobjects, how else are extraneous entities deleted?
07:34 VanessaE (think for example a machine that's sitting there placing and digging stuff, like an automated tree farm.  bloats the rollback log into the 10's of gigs)
07:35 VanessaE they're allegedly deleted by the "too many objects" code.
07:36 hmmmm well i don't think it's necessarily bad to delete playersaos
07:36 VanessaE why?
07:36 VanessaE doing so disconnects the player for no good reason
07:36 hmmmm exactly, that shouldn't be the case
07:36 hmmmm rather no
07:36 hmmmm I mean it's not bad to delete statically stored playersaos
07:37 hmmmm i mean what kind of data do they have?  their data should all be in worlds/<world>/players/*
07:38 hmmmm lol statically stored playersao is an oxymoron
07:38 hmmmm player static objects should be safely deletable
07:38 hmmmm playersaos should never be deleted on the other hand
07:39 hmmmm deactivateFarObjects() is a total clusterfuck
07:40 hmmmm it's too big, the logic is too complex and fragile
07:42 hmmmm hmm
07:42 hmmmm are playersaos even allowed to have a static object counterpart??
07:42 hmmmm indeed no
07:43 hmmmm deactivateFarObjects() is player-safe.  same with clearAllObjects()
07:47 hmmmm kahrl fixed the latter with this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/88cdd3a363668cfb2fd07b5381cce29738aed0bf
07:54 hmmmm VanessaE:  what attempt to fix the bug are you talking about exactly?
07:55 VanessaE I don't remember what that was referring to
07:56 VanessaE probabvly the situation where //clearobjects (two slashes, worldedit) could also delete player objects.
07:56 VanessaE probably*
07:57 hmmmm lol, no... the fix for that was made in early 2012
07:57 hmmmm er wait a minute
07:57 VanessaE eh... no
07:57 hmmmm why does worldedit have its own separate clearobjects command
07:57 VanessaE that's for clearing objects just in the worldedit-selected region.
07:57 VanessaE most of this started with ShadowNinja's SAO rewrite a while back.
07:59 hmmmm https://github.com/Uberi/Minetest-WorldEd​it/blob/163dffccb38a1f4e37866d7232cecfb52​38f7af7/worldedit/manipulations.lua#L583
07:59 hmmmm ????
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08:00 VanessaE not sure when that check was added.  probably around the same time as the "attempt" in the engine.
08:02 hmmmm do you still see this problem regularly?
08:02 VanessaE you mean signing on and getting no map data/player deleted on signon?
08:02 hmmmm that?? or 1425
08:02 hmmmm cause i was talking about 1425
08:03 VanessaE the same.   happened just a few mins before I mentioned it initially.
08:03 hmmmm welll
08:03 hmmmm how are you sure they're the same
08:03 VanessaE I'm not sure, but the pattern is the same as it's been since I reported that bug
08:03 VanessaE VE-Creative is difficult to sign onto to just play
08:04 VanessaE because as soon as you're in, somewhere the engine thinks there are too many entities, deletes them, and deletes you.
08:05 hmmmm so do you see Cancelling: No player for peer_id=# in the log at the same time as the player attempts to log in but cannot get map?
08:05 hmmmm if you do, then it's the same bug
08:05 hmmmm if not, it's a different thing
08:05 hmmmm the engine thinking there are too many entities simply does not apply to players
08:05 hmmmm player objects are not allowed static counterparts so they're skipped over in deactivateFarObjects
08:06 hmmmm sorry to blow a huge hole in your theory :p
08:07 VanessaE I *do* see the "Cancelling" message
08:07 VanessaE right after I joined, in fact.
08:07 hmmmm aren't you supposed to get disconnected?
08:07 VanessaE sorry to blow a hole in your explosives ;)
08:08 VanessaE here's a log excerpt from that last event:  http://pastebin.com/SRzBmb9a
08:08 VanessaE note line 18...  the per-block limit on this server is 500.
08:09 hmmmm did you really emerge at block (-43, 1, -28)?
08:11 VanessaE probably.  I was off somewhere I didn't recognize.
08:11 hmmmm well
08:11 VanessaE wasn't the usual spawn area but some road and house, probably something cheapie had showed me recently.
08:11 hmmmm are you sure there aren't any mods that spawn objects right next to you as you join the game
08:11 hmmmm because that's what I think is going on
08:11 VanessaE I don't see how
08:11 hmmmm i'm telling you, players never get deactivated in the routine that error message originates from
08:12 hmmmm simply not possible
08:12 VanessaE I've seen it happen in areas with nothing whatsoever that could cause an object to be created.
08:13 hmmmm so as it stands right now I understand this bug as:
08:13 hmmmm "Player seems to successfully emerge but object gets deleted soon after"
08:13 VanessaE yep
08:13 VanessaE and if the player *does* successfully emerge and can hang about for more than a few seconds, then they generally don't get deleted after that
08:14 VanessaE it's like there's a several-second window right after emerge where they're vulnerable.
08:16 hmmmm i'd love to check it out
08:16 hmmmm but it's 4:15 AM
08:16 VanessaE I know.
08:16 VanessaE just point this out becasue this REALLY needs fixed before 0.4.12
08:16 VanessaE er 0.4.13
08:16 VanessaE as does tha rollback issue
08:17 VanessaE there NEEDS to be some way to prevent rollback from logging an action so that automated machines don't bloat the log
08:20 hmmmm then make a jira issue about it
08:20 hmmmm er, github issue
08:20 VanessaE I think such already exists.,
08:20 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2335
08:24 VanessaE as you can see, no one's done anything about it.
08:24 VanessaE right now I'm cleaning up, as c55 once put it, "a fuckton of griefing" by hand because of that.
08:25 hmmmm i think rollback sucks
08:25 hmmmm snapshots should be made instead
08:26 hmmmm diff-based snapshots
08:28 VanessaE wouldn't work so well in realtime
08:28 VanessaE rollback's main purpose is to undo griefing
08:28 VanessaE which needs at least per-minute granularity
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08:50 VanessaE paramat:  aliases are needed for pine wood slabs/stairs.
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09:40 VanessaE hmmmm: here's the latest OOM crash, now with modname, callback, and mem usage: http://pastebin.com/KHETC1Wa  (already pinged Sokomine, markers is hers)
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11:16 kahrl VanessaE: is your version of gdb by any chance incompatible with your compiler version?
11:16 kahrl because I see lots of dwarf errors there
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11:54 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_​game/pull/627#issuecomment-131355267
11:54 sfan5 >Poorly contrasted greenish planks VS. Faithful well-aged planks... but, well, as long as paramat is actively lobbying his stuff, it'll be preferred for paramat_game and never declined, as usual. No wonder why people like BlockMen are left (including me right now). This game is lost.
11:54 sfan5 lolwat
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12:05 kilbith ah sfan5 canalizing the attention of the pack to take offense against me, basely in my back
12:06 kilbith you're a coward guy that only wake up when the collective is/may against me
12:06 sfan5 correct, i never do actual development work on minetest
12:06 sfan5 it's obvious isn't it?
12:06 kilbith where did i said that ?
12:07 sfan5 it's kind of implied
12:07 kilbith it's interpreted and farfetched
12:07 kilbith so lay off
12:08 kilbith if you have some kind of problem against me, tell that when i can ensure my defense
12:08 kilbith otherwise you're just a coward
12:08 sfan5 <kilbith> it's interpreted and farfetched
12:08 sfan5 are you telling me what you commented on github is not interpreted and farfetched?
12:09 kilbith about what in particular ?
12:09 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_​game/pull/627#issuecomment-131355267 this one
12:10 kilbith i know but what bit of that comment offend you
12:10 sfan5 where did i say that
12:10 kilbith "i never do actual development work on minetest" <- where i implied that ?
12:11 kilbith it's just offtopic and out of the target
12:11 sfan5 "it's just offtopic"
12:11 sfan5 you're funny
12:12 kilbith for the umpteenth time you just wanted to present me as a villain
12:12 sfan5 i don't even know what you problem is
12:12 sfan5 all i did was comment on your github comment with "lolwat"
12:12 kilbith anyways, i don't care anymore
12:13 sfan5 then you go accusing me of only trying to take offense against you
12:13 sfan5 ah whatever
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13:09 Krock as usually, there's no pull request that someone doesn't like
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14:46 VanessaE kahrl: well I assume gdb and gcc/g++ are compatible with one another -- both are the packages that come with xubuntu.
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15:09 RealBadAngel hi
15:09 RealBadAngel hmmm youre quite wrong about that shaders optimizer
15:09 RealBadAngel this is not meant for open gl just for ES
15:10 RealBadAngel so good luck using that. you will just make shaders human unreadable
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15:11 RealBadAngel other thing. theres no one shader for everything
15:11 RealBadAngel shaders are instanced for each drawtype
15:12 RealBadAngel as usual you have ideas to make the code better but not a slightest idea how it works
15:13 RealBadAngel dont make an idiot of yourself and keep working on areas you know
15:45 leat joined #minetest-dev
15:45 hmmmm so you came around just to taunt me?
15:45 hmmmm don't become a proller
15:48 RealBadAngel no
15:48 Player_2 joined #minetest-dev
15:48 RealBadAngel i am answering to what you have said while i was absent
15:49 RealBadAngel you propably have never read the link about optimizer you have put there
15:49 tuy joined #minetest-dev
15:49 RealBadAngel otherwise you want be saying such bullshits
15:49 hmmmm look, fuck off back to your fork or whatever already, i'm tired of your attitude
15:50 hmmmm maybe it was for the best that you left minetest
15:50 RealBadAngel so stop insulting me behind my back
15:50 RealBadAngel there are logs, i can still read them :P
15:51 hmmmm i never said anything insulting about you
15:51 hmmmm never mind that.  it's off topic for this channel.
15:51 RealBadAngel i also never mind that. that part is over for me
15:52 RealBadAngel so just please read what you have posted and check out how shaders work
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16:00 VanessaE regardless of who knows what about which feature, we need simple shaders equivalent to what was present just after the "Waving" stuff went in, before 0.4.13 goes out.
16:09 hmmmm if we do that, is there any point to having shaders enabled?
16:09 hmmmm is the acceleration of finalColorBlend actually worth it?
16:09 VanessaE idk
16:09 VanessaE for me, shaders cost fps.
16:10 hmmmm then the answer is no
16:10 VanessaE for others, evidently they're faster
16:10 hmmmm fwiw I run with shaders disabled anymore, I still take a nasty FPS hit since that one commit
16:10 RealBadAngel then stay in stone age
16:10 VanessaE RealBadAngel: R9 280X is NOT "stone age".
16:10 VanessaE if shaders are slower than baseline code on my GPU, there's something wrong with the shaders code.
16:11 RealBadAngel my gtx also is not
16:11 RealBadAngel and yet i do get twice or four times more fps than you or hmm
16:12 RealBadAngel with all the possible effects around
16:13 RealBadAngel more i let to be done GPU side, more fps i get
16:14 RealBadAngel also i cannot see any difference with shaders enabled and disabled
16:14 RealBadAngel i just get more fancy gfx with shaders
16:14 RealBadAngel disabling shaders at all doesnt cause any speed up as you are claiming
16:15 RealBadAngel just world lighting is fucked up by definition
16:16 RealBadAngel anyway lite shaders will use glsl 2.1 enough for older boxes
16:16 VanessaE kaeza uses 1.2...
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16:17 RealBadAngel we are mixing glsl and opengl versions
16:18 VanessaE Irrlicht log: GLSL version: 1.2
16:18 VanessaE you were saying?
16:18 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2866
16:18 RealBadAngel https://en.wikipedia.org/wi​ki/OpenGL_Shading_Language
16:19 RealBadAngel OpenGL 2.1 comes with shading language GLSL version 1.2
16:20 VanessaE "<RealBadAngel> anyway lite shaders will use glsl 2.1 enough for older boxes"
16:20 RealBadAngel #version 120 will be absolute minimum to talk about shaders
16:20 VanessaE "we" are not mixing anything up.  you are.
16:20 RealBadAngel current version is 450
16:20 RealBadAngel and this one i will support and use with regular shaders
16:21 RealBadAngel yeah, i mixed that.
16:22 RealBadAngel versions #120 is the correct one for GLSL
16:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/120 -- lua_api.txt is missing important stuff
16:23 RealBadAngel 120 is several years old
16:23 RealBadAngel enough even for watches to work with
16:24 RealBadAngel but dont expect even bumpmapping working there properly
16:24 RealBadAngel just final color blend, some waving and period
16:25 VanessaE I think that's all that's wanted.
16:25 VanessaE no one expects fancy shaders like that to work on old GPUs
16:26 VanessaE but a simple shader like waving or lighting should work everywhere
16:26 paramat nore sfan5 your opinions on game#631 ?
16:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/631 -- Default/functions: Half rate of leafdecay ABM by paramat
16:26 hmmmm speaking of waving we need to draw backfaces on waving nodes
16:26 nore hm... I would agree with est31 on this one
16:27 paramat yeah it's controversial =)
16:27 RealBadAngel hmmmm, not only them.
16:28 RealBadAngel but this i want to move to geometry shaders at all
16:28 RealBadAngel thats a proper place to do such things
16:28 RealBadAngel including extruding things
16:32 RealBadAngel meanwhile some1 could took care of guys flying around on hacked clients and destroyin other players work
16:32 RealBadAngel that should be more important for you than a few fps
16:34 RealBadAngel while my work can be turned off you cant turn on a guy flying around and watchin while he is destroyin what you have build for weeks
16:34 RealBadAngel *turn off
16:36 paramat hmmmm okay for #3061 ? from my testing in logs seems okay for now
16:36 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3061 -- Defaultsettings: Increase client_mapblock_limit to 5000 by paramat
16:36 hmmmm I guess it's okay
16:36 paramat okay will push later
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16:38 Krock paramat, why 5k?
16:38 paramat see discussion linked to
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16:39 Krock oh. Haven't seen that link
16:40 Krock gonna change it to 200 when I got a new build :P
16:40 paramat that's way too low, not even 2 mapchunks
16:41 Krock mapchunks != mapblocks??
16:41 paramat 1 mapchunk = 125 mapblocks
16:42 Krock oh
16:43 paramat or rather 1 chunk contains 125 blocks
16:43 paramat 5^3
16:44 Krock but the chunk size is changeable
16:44 paramat yeah, 125 with the default
16:45 paramat mapblocks are fixed size, so the setting is in mapblocks
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16:56 Taoki hmmmm, RealBadAngel: I can confirm that disabling shaders increases FPS very noticeable, actually. This is of course understandable, shaders cost the GPU.
16:57 Taoki The slowdown isn't much more dramatic than say, when enabling shaders in a Quake engine fork. In Minetest it might be a bit slower though, since there might be a bit more unoptimized surfaces (being a voxel engine and all)
16:59 Taoki In any case, RealBadAngel has done an amazing work with shaders since he's been working on them. Which is one reason why I'm among those wanting him to stay with Minetest (that doesn't impede him working on his own fork as well, pluu requsts should be easy to make to both projects).
16:59 Calinou most games today don't offer fixed-function fallbacks because it's a huge code saver; Sauerbraten and Red Eclipse recently removed fixed-function rendering support, bumping the minimal OpenGL version supported to 2.1 (2006-2007 era)
17:00 Taoki OpenGL 2.1 is a very reasonable requirement in my book.
17:00 Calinou yes, we shouldn't be afraid to require that
17:00 Calinou this is not OpenArena (I hope)
17:00 Taoki Not like what High Fidelity did... bumping the minimum required version to OpenGL 4.1, which is why I'm not unable to use it any more.
17:01 Calinou the free drivers will soon support OpenGL 4.1
17:01 Calinou but it'll be a year or so until it lands in distributions
17:01 Taoki Calinou: There has been a LOT of conflict in the Minetest dev team over new vs. old. Some (like RBA) want to sacrifice very old compatibility for newer features. Others want Minetest to stay compatible with computers 20 years old.
17:01 Calinou I don't think it's compatible with 1995 computers :)
17:01 Taoki And of course, not many make an effort to stay civil about it either it appears :/
17:02 Taoki so hopefully this is something that can be dissected better someday.
17:02 Calinou we need more AAA game competitors, and for that we need better graphics, it has been proven it's the only way to attract people
17:02 Taoki That's surprising :P
17:02 Taoki Calinou: +1
17:03 Taoki Better graphics TOO, not ONLY better graphics. Otherwise we end up like Unreal Tournament 3: Great graphics, the most depressive and useless gameplay.
17:03 Taoki Thankfully that's not the case with Minetest, the gameplay and functionality is great already.
17:03 Calinou but the stability isn't :s
17:03 Taoki True
17:03 Calinou (well, many AAA games are poorly optimized and unstable too)
17:04 Taoki No stability in either the engine, nor the dev team. Hard to tell where the most bugs and crashes exist between the two :P
17:05 hmmmm we need more manpower really
17:05 Calinou sorry, not going to learn C++ anytime soon 8)
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17:05 Taoki That too
17:05 Calinou my studies won't ever focus on it
17:05 Krock Calinou, minetest runs on P2 (1997-2001)
17:05 hmmmm as far as it stands right now we have two people basically running the show and then dozens of other people making small patches on what /they/ want (not what the project needs)
17:06 Taoki MT has quite a few devs already, but it could use even more. Also, considering all the conflicts, more devleopers (meaning more points of view) might be even harder to manage than the current situation...
17:06 hmmmm we don't just need more devs, we need high quality devs too
17:06 hmmmm the problem with that is high quality devs usually have real life jobs and they're not able to dedicate too much time
17:07 Taoki From a perspective of code knowledge, the core devs I'm familiar with are pretty good, from what I can tell
17:07 Calinou yeah, high quality devs would rather work where it's profitable
17:07 Taoki The story of open-source :)
17:07 Calinou they're maybe pretty good but they have bad workflow or practices... maybe you can put up with that, but hmmmm can't
17:11 hmmmm hmm
17:11 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issu​es?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Ablocker
17:11 hmmmm this is what we should be talking about
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17:12 hmmmm so est is probably working on then inventory bug so 3048 is accounted for, there's already a PR for 3042, and 3045/3064 probably need fixing as well
17:13 hmmmm I am all for simple solutions but gregorycu's patch seems to just shift problems around instead of solving them
17:13 nrzkt Calinou: OpenGL 4.2 is now supported by MESA fully, radeon and nouveau will support them soon
17:13 Calinou right
17:13 Calinou http://mesamatrix.net/
17:13 BlockMen hmmmm, #3045 is fixed by #3041
17:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3045 -- Glitching through ceiling
17:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3041 -- Fix sneaking (fixes #329 and #665) by BlockMen
17:14 hmmmm ahh that
17:14 Taoki nrzkt: Not r600. Which is why I might be stuck with OpenGL 3.3 for god knows how long.
17:14 hmmmm yeah that's a very heavy solution
17:14 Taoki If you want an example of what NOT to do, High Fidelity is a great one in this domain (as much as I love the project): Making OpenGL 4.1 a requirement when not even the native Linux driver supports it.
17:14 BlockMen node is just checked now if sneaknode changes
17:15 hmmmm BlockMen, what about 3064?
17:15 nrzkt Taoki r600 is not supported anymore by AMD as i remember
17:15 Taoki Making OpenGL 2.1 a requirement though? Come on... of course that's a reasonable minimum version.
17:15 hmmmm Taoki:  I would be okay with making 2.1 a requirement
17:15 Taoki nrzkt: Ah... good to know. The free driver isn't developed by AMD however, so this doesn't affect me. Linux devs offer support for much longer.
17:15 Taoki Another good reason for me not to use fglrx.
17:16 BlockMen hmmmm, you think its related?
17:16 nrzkt Taoki radeon free driver is developped by AMD itself, not r600. AMD works on radeon and the new AMDGPU driver (which will land in Linux 4.2) for new cards
17:16 Taoki hmmmm: If there are ever shaders that need that, or it would improve performance, sure. Obviously we don't need to make it a requirement just for the sake of it... only if it ever gets in the way of anything (my opinion)
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17:16 hmmmm BlockMen:  Of course
17:17 Taoki nrzkt: Ah, interesting.
17:17 hmmmm well
17:17 nrzkt Taoki: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=artic​le&amp;item=amd_bordeaux_strategy&amp;num=1
17:17 hmmmm it has to do with sneaking, and this wasn't a problem before, all of a sudden it's a problem
17:17 Taoki Well r600 hasn't been abandoned form what I read. And probably won't be
17:18 Taoki It might of course be ported to the new drivers they're making
17:18 BlockMen hmmmm, cant reproduce locally
17:18 nrzkt AMDGPU is the new unified driver and this driver based upon mesa will unify Radeon on newer cards with FGLRX
17:18 Taoki As in, I won't have a Linux update make my video card not work any more :P Cuz that would be crazy... especially since it's still rather new.
17:18 Taoki Huh... isn't fglrx close-source?
17:20 * Taoki will stick with the open drivers, whichever those are.
17:20 hmmmm well then
17:20 nrzkt yes but the new goal of AMD is to have a common part, i don't which part, but a common part. And Alex from AMD is the best Radeon contributor, we have OpenGL 4.1 on radeon because of him and 2 -3 other AMD developpers dedicated to opensource
17:21 Taoki This is good to know... wasn't aware of some of that.
17:21 nrzkt i use Radeon on archlinux and on Linux 4.1 + Mesa 10.6 it works very great, but stucked to opengl 3.0, we need mesa 11.0 to have opengl 4
17:21 Calinou FWIW, radeon requires a binary blob to deliver 3D and video acceleration :-)
17:21 Taoki Yes
17:22 nrzkt like in Intel and nvidia softs
17:22 Calinou go boot a PC with an AMD card or IGP with Linux-libre and enjoy everything breaking
17:22 Taoki Yeah, the firmware.
17:22 Calinou nrzkt, this is the case of Intel Skylake too, now
17:22 paramat VanessaE and all, how much need is there for pinenode aliases? (due to there recent renaming) pine nodes have only been placed by mapgen during 0.4.12dev, so perhaps there is no strict requirement for aliases? i would rather have none
17:22 Calinou they added a required blob :/ and Maxwell will also require a signed blob with Nouveau
17:22 Calinou (well, there's still zero Maxwell support in Nouveau for now)
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17:22 BlockMen hmmmm, cant reproduce on that server either
17:24 hmmmm BlockMen, did you see the comments for #3041?
17:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3041 -- Fix sneaking (fixes #329 and #665) by BlockMen
17:24 Taoki I can live with the firmware being a blob. I mean, it's not like the physical graphics card is open-source either, so to say. It's mostly instructions on how to cross the wires, more so than usable software.
17:25 Calinou the problem is that crippling (compute, overclocking, fan control) often happens in the firmware
17:25 Calinou maybe you'd like to overclock your card, or remove crippling (eg. HDMI limitations)...
17:25 Calinou it'd be much easier with free firmware, and wouldn't require binary hacks
17:26 Calinou (have you seen binary hacks available for the proprietary NVIDIA driver? it's insane, but they exist)
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17:26 Calinou AMD has been caught crippling their HDMI adapter in fglrx
17:26 Calinou but they didn't do so in radeon
17:27 BlockMen hmmmm, how else should you get the highest point of a nodebox? each node can have multiple nodeboxes and guessing its size (like we did before) caused hovering over slabs, stiars, etc when sneaking
17:27 Taoki Obviously it would be ideal.
17:27 hmmmm BlockMen: ??
17:28 BlockMen you dont like the cb_max = 0, right?
17:28 hmmmm huh no
17:28 hmmmm that comment applied to all within the range
17:29 hmmmm the act of calculating the maximum point in a nodebox is something that ought to be calculated once, not every single time
17:29 hmmmm but I also added another comment saying it's fine that way for now since it's not executed every single step
17:30 BlockMen sry, github didnt noticed me :\
17:30 hmmmm I'm just saying that I think ContentFeatures should have a new field like "highest_boundingbox_point" or something that's computed once, when the client receives the NodeDef
17:31 hmmmm and that way you wouldn't have to recompute it each time
17:32 BlockMen ah, yes. that makes sense.
17:34 hmmmm BlockMen:  another thing, in "if (!is_climbing) { ...}
17:35 hmmmm you moved that part where speed in the Y direction gets bounded to 0, unconditionally
17:35 hmmmm is that intentional?
17:37 BlockMen yes
17:38 hmmmm I'm not going to pretend I understand what's going on in that code :p
17:38 hmmmm I hope this patch doesn't break anything else
17:39 hmmmm well, maybe I do understand it.  tell me if I'm wrong:
17:40 hmmmm hmm no i don't get it
17:40 hmmmm how is it possible for the player to go downward if sneaking
17:42 BlockMen The collision detections seems to be broken at all (e.g. you are sinking in objects that have collide_with_objects) enabled. From what i found out this happens with sneaking aswell, so the speed = 0  is needed here to not glitch from the node when "beside" an sneaking
17:43 BlockMen so it should be added "workaroud: remove when fixed collision"
17:44 BlockMen *at sneaking only when "over" the edge of the node you are sneaking on
17:44 BlockMen so we can either use this partial fix for now or just revert the last sneaking fix that got merged recently
17:45 BlockMen idc which way around
17:48 hmmmm well
17:48 hmmmm which is more work
17:48 hmmmm and which are you confident about having less bugs in the end
17:48 hmmmm however you want to approach it is fine by me
17:53 BlockMen hmmmm, since you pushed that. has it fixed #1551 or not?
17:53 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1551 -- disable_jump group doesn't work on nodeboxes
17:54 hmmmm I do not know
17:55 hmmmm people report it as fixing the 1551, I didn't test it on my own
17:55 hmmmm when I wrote "can confirm, works for me too", I was mistaken that casmir's trampoline mod uses nodeboxes
17:55 BlockMen well, then i guess reverting is the safe method to get nothing else broken
17:56 hmmmm ?
17:56 hmmmm your patch modifies the exact same lines that 5c3c965 touches
17:56 hmmmm take a look at what it actually does https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/5c3c965c1a6e1fb5957d441c2d04d8470b80d710
17:57 hmmmm instead of checking the half-height of the player, it checks the collision box close to the player's feet
17:57 BlockMen my changes more. and i have tested many cases, but the old is tested more. furthermore idk if i may break disable_jumping (again)
17:58 BlockMen i ment "those lines and more", not "my changes" :\
17:58 hmmmm well test it out!
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18:04 hmmmm guys, please take a look: https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/393345e6f78a21b4f7284f942ddb81066fbd2077
18:05 nrzkt hmmmm: what does our patch ?
18:06 hmmmm er....
18:06 hmmmm #3066
18:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/3066 -- SEnv: Remove static_exists from ActiveObjects in deleted blocks by kwolekr
18:15 BlockMen hmmmm, why is static_block alsways 0,0,0?
18:15 hmmmm it's that by default
18:16 hmmmm if a value isn't specified
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18:17 BlockMen but when this is supposed to be used only when deleting block from map, why having that parameter at all?
18:17 hmmmm just for completeness
18:18 hmmmm what if sometime in the future people decide to use it for something else?
18:18 hmmmm shrug
18:19 BlockMen then they add the param i guess? but beside that it seems good to me, but i have to say i have no clue how objects are handled serverside at all
18:19 BlockMen or what happens when they are not set static
18:20 BlockMen and disable_jump still works with my patch
18:20 hmmmm see
18:20 hmmmm it's difficult to say exactly what happens
18:21 hmmmm ServerEnvironment is so intertwined with other pieces of minetest that it's practically impossible to understand the impact of one change
18:21 hmmmm way too much state imho
18:22 hmmmm BlockMen:  I approve of your patch
18:27 BlockMen ok, then i add the comment where speed is set to 0 and push it
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18:38 BlockMen hmmmm, comment understandable? https://github.com/BlockMen/minetest/commi​t/7238df4c5952ed9eec491f424b8ca4b790cf7558​#diff-efb51cde4bb3c805a95dc31b2b1781d0R197
18:41 hmmmm sure looks good.
18:42 BlockMen thx. pushing now
18:46 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/383e135ffed520e40393e25acf16762838ef7c9f  PTAL
18:50 BlockMen PTAL = please take a look?
18:50 hmmmm yes
18:50 BlockMen approved then
18:51 hmmmm that was an original bug from 2012 :)
18:51 hmmmm heh
18:56 hmmmm alright so the rest is basically up to est
18:56 hmmmm and then I think we can release
18:56 hmmmm I'll try to figure out vanessae's playersao removal problem but no promises
18:57 hmmmm the reason why I don't consider it a blocker is because it only affects vanessae and she keeps up to date with development versions
18:57 VanessaE hmmmm: did you see that latest OOM log I paste(bine)d?
18:57 hmmmm no, can you link me?
18:57 VanessaE sec.
18:58 VanessaE http://pastebin.com/KHETC1Wa
18:58 VanessaE short version:  on_playerReceiveFields() in the markers mod
18:58 VanessaE 891MB in use at the time
18:58 hmmmm mmmm.
18:59 hmmmm on_PlayerReceiveFields is a formspec thing, right?
19:00 BlockMen yes
19:00 VanessaE yeah
19:00 VanessaE Sokomine says she pulls in a list of areas to fill some formspec field, but I know the areas database is less than 1 MB and under 5000 entries
19:02 hmmmm 891mb is such an odd amount of mem to crash on
19:02 hmmmm but it could be a plausible amount for it to be the luajit limitation
19:03 hmmmm the luajit limitation is caused by the range of the memory addresses allocated
19:03 hmmmm so plausibly, just enough memory could've been allocated for non-lua purposes below the 2GB mark
19:03 hmmmm and it didn't get a sufficiently low address from mmap
19:04 hmmmm sokomine is female?
19:04 VanessaE yeah
19:04 hmmmm did not know that
19:04 hmmmm well you know what they say about girls on irc right
19:04 hmmmm (or more specifically, EFNet)
19:05 VanessaE ha!
19:05 hmmmm where men are men, women are men, and little girls are FBI
19:05 hmmmm I bet sokomine is a fed
19:05 VanessaE looks, btw, like jualit has a 1GB limit, not 2
19:06 hmmmm our leet hacking ring is going to get busted
19:06 hmmmm VanessaE:  it's disputed
19:06 VanessaE and allegedly can be extended to 4GB with some compile option(s).
19:06 hmmmm the official complaint says it's 2, I personally observe 2gb, and then some other people see it at 1 only
19:06 hmmmm i think it heavily depends on the version of your kernel among other factors.
19:07 hmmmm i think we may need to scrap luajit altogether at some point
19:07 VanessaE also this, http://lua-users.org/lists/​lua-l/2012-04/msg00729.html
19:07 hmmmm the author retired and nobody is taking his place so I think it might become a dead project
19:07 VanessaE oh that's bad
19:08 hmmmm also somebody posted earlier a benchmark that shows that interpreted lua 5.3 is faster than luajit (!!!!)
19:08 hmmmm will need to investigate
19:08 VanessaE how's that even possible?
19:08 hmmmm it's going to take a bit of integration effort though, since certain apis have been removed
19:08 hmmmm I have no idea
19:09 VanessaE "All of that said: don't worry, LuaJIT is in good shape and it's NOT
19:09 VanessaE going away! It's open source, it has a great community. It just needs
19:09 VanessaE a new management."
19:09 VanessaE http://www.freelists.org/post/luajit​/Looking-for-new-LuaJIT-maintainers
19:09 VanessaE says CloudFlare has taken over "stewardship" of it)
19:09 hmmmm it was being developed by a single person
19:09 hmmmm nobody understands the code lol
19:10 hmmmm anyway i'll have to check out the markers mod later
19:10 VanessaE ok.
19:11 VanessaE sokomine's gonna try to minimize the amount of items in whatever list it is that she's creating, but in the meantime the underlying cause still has to be fixed (if possible)
19:12 hmmmm it's difficult to accidentally get into a runaway malloc situation with Lua
19:12 hmmmm if anything I'm guessing markers does something odd to expose a bug in the core
19:12 hmmmm man I dunno
19:13 hmmmm I think I could do a whole lot more by submitting some patches to LuaJIT
19:13 hmmmm backtraces on OOM are definitely possible but not without modifying their exception handling internals
19:17 VanessaE inb4 <hmmmm> oh shit, I know why... this is stupid
19:17 VanessaE ;)
19:17 hmmmm oh that's not gonna happen
19:18 VanessaE sure.. spoil the joke :P
19:26 paramat hmmmm or anyone about to merge to the engine? i would like to push 3061
19:26 hmmmm go ahead
19:27 paramat thanks now pushing
19:27 Sokomine hmmmm: the markers mod shows (when nothing else fits more cloesly) a list of all areas players protected on a server. this list can get long. vanessaes server has over 3000 areas. and my markers mod shows them all in a list in a formspec
19:27 hmmmm WELL THEN
19:28 VanessaE didn't I say that half an hour ago? :)
19:28 Sokomine it's a bit surprising that such a long list works at all. i think i'll have to shorten the list for big servers so that it gets more convenient
19:28 Sokomine oh, sorry :-)
19:28 hmmmm try pagination?
19:30 Sokomine well, apart from putting the string together for the formspec, there's also some collecting of which areas are to be shown inside a list and a sorting of said list using vector.distance and table.sort prior to composing the formspec
19:31 paramat merge complete
19:31 Sokomine hm, or just showing player names who protected areas. i think i'll have to find a more practical way to use that part (the normal use case is to show the current area and its extension)
19:31 Sokomine and yes, i'm female. i've just learned long ago not to show that due to too many pre-puberty young boys getting too excited to see any female name :-/
19:40 Sokomine (on irc in general; not here)
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19:58 VanessaE hmmmm: http://bayesanalytic.com/acce​ss-extra-memory-from-lua-jit/
20:13 paramat will push game#622 very soon
20:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/622 -- Default: New grass textures, new footsteps overlay texture by paramat
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20:18 paramat now merging game 622
20:18 luizrpgluiz the rubenward is very smart, now I can limit the size of the world now
20:18 luizrpgluiz :D
20:22 paramat merge complete, no more depressing grass! https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/3686677​/9239537/91ae1006-4154-11e5-94e6-1b42d44d35e8.png
20:24 luizrpgluiz that strange, only works in the release candidate of 0.4.13
20:28 VanessaE paramat: can you make the leaf decay interval and chance public so I can access them from moretrees?
20:30 paramat i guess not worth it because leafdecay will be moved to engine soon according to est31
20:30 VanessaE ok
20:30 paramat my PR was unpopular
20:30 VanessaE how about at least reading a group so I can set how fast the decay goes?
20:30 VanessaE e.g. leafdecay = 2 would be half as fast as = 1.
20:31 paramat same answer =)
20:31 VanessaE D:
20:31 luizrpgluiz ^^
20:31 VanessaE well let's just see how bad it gets.
20:31 * VanessaE switches moretrees over to using default leaf decay settings.
20:31 paramat eek
20:34 paramat is there much actual need for pine node aliases? pine nodes have only been placed by mapgen during 0.4.12dev, so strictly we can leave out the aliases, for tidyness, i would prefer none
20:34 VanessaE hard to say but already people have been using them in some worlds
20:35 paramat hm yeah
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20:36 Amaz I've made fairly extensive use of them in some buildings on a couple of servers.
20:36 paramat okay stairs/slabs too?
20:37 paramat yes okay i'll add the stair/slab aliases too then
20:37 Amaz Yeah
20:40 hmmmm lol
20:40 hmmmm leafdecay was handled by the engine as well as grass growing
20:40 hmmmm there was some kind of strange push to put it in lua...
20:42 paramat !
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20:54 VanessaE paramat: no appreciable change in CPU when letting a giant sequoia decay using default code
20:55 paramat surprising but good
21:00 paramat the lua load would be heavy though, but perhaps no different to a forest of little default trees
21:12 sloantothebone I wish minetest would support 2d games
21:14 hmmmm lol
21:14 hmmmm I suppose it is possible by restricting view to third person only at specific camera angles
21:15 kahrl ... or formspecs >:-P
21:15 sloantothebone No I mean squares instead of voxels
21:15 sloantothebone Like this: http://zanzlanz.com/MineBlocks
21:17 hmmmm well, it seems like you're looking for a different engine altogether
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21:19 sloantothebone Do you know of such an engine?
21:20 hmmmm no, and it seems like this isn't a #minetest-dev discussion
21:20 hmmmm please stay on topic hee
21:20 hmmmm here*
21:20 sloantothebone https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/11375751/ this is paper minecraft, I like this because it darkens nodes that are out of site
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21:21 sloantothebone I thought this was the place to discuss features of the engine
21:21 hmmmm it's for development
21:21 hmmmm discussions are typically of a technical nature
21:22 sloantothebone Ok, can you tell me if its possible?
21:22 sloantothebone Alright I'll talk about it in #minetest
21:22 hmmmm it's absolutely not possible... this is akin to saying that your train is really nice but you wish it were able to go underwater too
21:23 hmmmm what is possible (and quite easy, in fact) is to restrict camera angles and make the world only 1 node in a certain dimension so that it can emulate a 2d view
21:24 sloantothebone Well that would work
21:25 sloantothebone could we make lighting 2 dimensional too?
21:25 sloantothebone The controls would have to be modified
21:25 paramat we wouldn't want to support 2D stuff, try modding it instead
21:26 sloantothebone How do you redefine the controls and the way the player moves in lua??
21:27 paramat ask in the other channel =)
21:27 sloantothebone Ok
21:27 twoelk 2D?  I would rather think everything is possible but will somebody ever do it? Probably not ever and actually I wouldn't know why somebody should as that would be a totally different game alltogether
21:27 VanessaE why would you *want* to?
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22:04 Donillo Hello. I've sent minetest download page to my friend, he told me about minetest.exe saying "the program can not start because zlibwapi.dll is missing from your computer. try reinstaling the program to fix the problem"
22:04 Donillo what could be reason for this?
22:27 RealBadAngel missing library....
22:32 Donillo uh, what he can do?
22:32 Donillo could it be wrong version?
22:32 Donillo I don't run windows to test that
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22:33 paramat game#635 VanessaE does this look okay?
22:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/635 -- Stairs: Add aliases needed due to new pine wood name by paramat
22:36 VanessaE I think so
22:52 sloantothebone +CD-Server
22:52 sloantothebone <Segfault22> no way to copy from minetest chat because some devs thought that we shouldnt have that as a feature -- but FALLING THROUGH THE CORNERS OF BLOCKS is just fine and dandy
22:55 VanessaE this is a known bug, in irrlicht apparently.
22:55 VanessaE (the copy&paste)
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23:10 hmmmm you know what
23:11 hmmmm minetest modding is following the path of evolution for graphics cards
23:11 hmmmm >have fully-DIY code modules that let you do anything with tiny but efficient interface
23:12 hmmmm >too slow!  oh no, we'll just speed up commonly used routines by doing it in the core with more APIs
23:12 hmmmm >too limited!  a gazillion parameters
23:12 hmmmm then we get to the equivalent of shaders
23:13 hmmmm natively compiled .dlls instead of Lua
23:13 hmmmm right now though, we have fixed-function rendering :(
23:14 VanessaE heh
23:14 hmmmm maybe it would be prudent to create a C++ api instead of a lua one
23:15 hmmmm and then if anybody wants the Lua API back, then there could be a C++ mod that executes lua
23:15 VanessaE maybe "in addition to"
23:15 VanessaE but definitely not exclusive.
23:17 paramat hmmmm some observations on the dungeon ring mystery https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/2926#issuecomment-131467196
23:18 deltib_ joined #minetest-dev
23:19 hmmmm i think this may have something to do with the "voxelmanipulator flags"
23:20 paramat yeah possibly
23:20 paramat i stared at the code and wondered that
23:23 paramat the flags are the only thing i could not get my head around, everything else seemed fine
23:23 hmmmm VMANIP_FLAG_DUNGEON_INSIDE
23:24 Donillo apparently my friend have just something weird with whole system, now he says that another game asks for libwinptheard-1.dll
23:25 thatgraemeguy joined #minetest-dev
23:27 paramat perhaps i'll rework the flags and see what happens
23:28 paramat now pushing game 635
23:32 hmmmm honestly the dungeongen can use a lot of rework
23:33 hmmmm I think the code that exists right there was just celeron messing around with the concept - it's not good code, but it tries out interesting things
23:33 hmmmm was never meant to be perfect
23:33 paramat ! i love it as it is
23:33 ShadowBot paramat: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command).
23:33 paramat heh
23:33 hmmmm ho hum
23:33 hmmmm caves and dungeons seem to follow the sameish algorithm
23:33 hmmmm start at some point
23:33 hmmmm choose a random direction
23:34 hmmmm make a room/cave/thing, choose a random direction starting from there, repeat
23:34 paramat i just want to remove the rings, too common, and leave the complete/protruding dungeons as an option
23:34 hmmmm it's nice for what it is, I guess, we shouldn't try to change it anymore
23:35 hmmmm I think next we should try to make a buildinggen
23:35 paramat could always add a second dungeon type
23:35 paramat yeah
23:35 hmmmm which is similar to dungeongen except "packs" the rooms together
23:35 hmmmm maybe start out with a single rectangular space and make walls instead of make rooms and tunnels
23:36 paramat i love stuff like this ^_^
23:36 paramat merge complete
23:37 hmmmm we need to try generating structures based on worley noise sometime
23:37 paramat mtgame devs are considering simple houses / small villages as part of default mapgen
23:38 * paramat looks up worley noise
23:38 hmmmm you know what a voronoi diagram is right?
23:40 paramat yeah
23:40 paramat aha i see
23:40 paramat to divide a space into rooms
23:41 hmmmm exactly.
23:41 hmmmm for the distance metric instead of using euclidian we could use a taxicab space instead
23:41 hmmmm that would make the rooms square-ish
23:41 hmmmm taxicab distance i mean
23:47 Donillo left #minetest-dev
23:56 VanessaE hmmmm, RealBadAngel...  can something be added to spawn_tree() to force trunks to overwrite other stuff as they're "drawn"?
23:56 VanessaE (so that multiple neighboring trees don't have their trunks cut by intervening leaves etc)
23:58 paramat sounds like paramat job =/
23:58 VanessaE ok paramat then ;)
23:59 VanessaE I'm talking about the lsystem call though.
23:59 twoelk wouldn't that generate the same effect just the other way round?
23:59 VanessaE twoelk: trunks should cut through leaves, not vice versa :)

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