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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-03-24

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Time Nick Message
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00:41 hmmmm VanessaE:  Can you cherry-pick this?  https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/57cb93857ae80d10122b178fbbd2ba1a226aafdb
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03:17 VanessaE hmmmm: applied over clean HEAD (11372ac6 at the moment), but it does not help.  In fact both the place-to-autoroute delay and the crafting grid glitchness are WAY worse now
03:17 hmmmm oh wow!
03:17 hmmmm okay a couple things:
03:17 VanessaE I mean several-seconds-to-a-response worse
03:17 hmmmm 1). I don't experience this at all
03:17 hmmmm 2). that reverted the suspected bad commit in terms of functionality
03:18 VanessaE weird
03:18 hmmmm VanessaE, try minetest at 1b2f644 and tell me if it works there too
03:18 VanessaE ok
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03:19 hmmmm how did you arrive at 1b2f644 anyway?  did you just see that it affected crafting and figured it could be it, so you reverted to the commit before that and voila the problem is fixed?
03:19 VanessaE I went with est31's original bisect result, rolled back to the same point, got similar results
03:19 hmmmm ahh i forgot est31 worked on this as well
03:21 Tablet_One Sorry, trying to fix that >.<
03:21 VanessaE placement and crafting lag are about as bad at 1b2f644 as they were at HEAD.
03:22 VanessaE (HEAD without your "soft" patch I mean)
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03:23 VanessaE which is to say, up to about 1 second delay in the place-to-autoroute instance, and just the just-annoying-enough-to-infuriate glitchiness in the crafting. :)
03:23 hmmmm and the commit just before 1b2f644 has no such lag??
03:23 VanessaE let me try again just to be sure.
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03:28 VanessaE oh yeah, 038d3a31d is WAY better.  no perceptible crafting glitch (if it's there, I can't see it at all), and placement-to-autoroute delay is again small and variable, but tolerable.,
03:28 VanessaE you know, I distinctly recall sapier mentioning during his first big re-origanization during the 0.4.9 cycle, how this network-related behavior always seemed to change from one person's machine to another, even when it should be perfectly predictable.
03:28 VanessaE maybe this is more of the same?
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03:33 VanessaE greetz, Zeno
03:33 hmmmm i have no idea
03:34 hmmmm the only thing I can think of is that the regression started with 1b2f644 and then something else was added in later that also causes the same regression
03:34 hmmmm and its effects were masked by the earlier one
03:35 hmmmm so reverting 1b2f644 might be one of several reverts needed to actually fix this
03:35 hmmmm I think it would be much more efficient at this point to just find out what the cause of the regression is directly
03:42 Zeno` howdy
03:58 hmmmm i really wish nerzhul would look into this
03:58 hmmmm we can prove it was at least one of his commits involved
04:04 VanessaE hmmmm: that's more or less what I was thinking
04:05 VanessaE but this is a mish-mosh of commits and changes to dig through, let alone revert
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04:21 Zeno` there is a problem...
04:21 Zeno` packets that are sending strings are getting strings that seem to be not nul-terminated
04:22 hmmmm that's like a critical bug and needs to be fixed asap
04:23 Zeno` e.g. 14:11:47: VERBOSE[ServerThread]: TOSERVER_INVENTORY_ACTION: data=Move 999 current_player main 3 current_player craft 7 is followed by a whole bunch of illegal characters
04:23 Zeno` every time
04:24 VanessaE Zeno`: sounds like probably cause for that serialization issue that was just posted, with the log full of gibberish
04:24 VanessaE probable*
04:24 Zeno` I don't understand oldForgePacket()
04:24 Zeno` and u8* datas = getU8Ptr(0);
04:24 Zeno` something seems dodgy but I can't work out what
04:28 Zeno` seems like a whole lot of effort just to get rid of some memory allocation requirements for new packets
04:29 Zeno` I don't understand why the packet wasn't simply copied right at the beginning in .Send()
04:29 hmmmm oldForgePacket is a kludge so that nerzhul's new network interface works with the older low-level code
04:29 hmmmm lol Old Forge is the name of a town nearby where I live
04:29 hmmmm so whenever I see that function I think of pizza
04:30 Zeno` yeah, but... why not copy the packet in void Client::Send(NetworkPacket* pkt) .... errrr, nvm
04:30 * VanessaE sighs and pines for the days when sapier was here to work on networking code...
04:30 Zeno` Pizza!
04:30 Zeno` let's all order pizza from Old Forge
04:31 hmmmm I think that it was more or less the fact that an inexperienced newcomer with a track record of shoddy code comes around and rewrites a *major* subsystem of the project
04:31 Zeno` I don't like that function at all
04:31 Zeno` I suspect it's the source of many of these strange bugs
04:31 hmmmm it triggered my spidey senses
04:31 hmmmm but because I didn't substantiate anything (was relying on others' who reported the bugs in the first place) I was made out to seem like the bad guy
04:35 hmmmm lol, m_datasize += msgsize * sizeof(char)
04:35 hmmmm for those cases where sizeof(char) might not be 1
04:36 VanessaE there are platforms where a char isn't exactly 1 byte? O_o
04:37 hmmmm yes, but i was being sarcastic
04:37 VanessaE oh heh ok
04:37 hmmmm the C and C++ standards say that sizeof(char) will ALWAYS be 1, regardless
04:37 VanessaE I misread that anyway :)
04:37 hmmmm but a char might be more than one "octet" (for example, on many TI DSPs they're 32 bits)
04:38 hmmmm CHAR_BIT would be set appropriately
04:38 VanessaE interesting.  didn't know that
04:38 hmmmm char is always the smallest unit of memory that can be addressed by the platform
04:39 Zeno` memset(&sb[2], 0, m_datasize); segfaults?
04:39 hmmmm it does??
04:39 Zeno` yeah
04:39 hmmmm where is that
04:39 Zeno` why would it do that if a can memcpy
04:39 Zeno` I added it in oldForgePacket
04:40 hmmmm hmm
04:40 Zeno` ignore me for a moment... looking more
04:40 hmmmm u8* datass
04:40 hmmmm dat ass.
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04:44 hmmmm huh, Zeno`, the old network serialization didn't have a null terminator on the strings either
04:44 hmmmm don't you think that'd be kind of weird if it did?
04:44 Zeno` yes, but I don't remember all these messages in debug.txt that were not nul-terminated
04:45 Zeno` I'm sure i would have noticed because Kate switches to Read Only with a big yellow message at the top when there are invalid characters
04:46 Zeno` I'm not sure if I would find it weird if the packets had nul-terminated strings
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04:47 Zeno` maybe I've just never used verbose when checking crafting before :)
04:48 hmmmm well if they already have a length prefix, a null terminator would be verbose and useless
04:48 hmmmm maybe you're looking at a packet that had two strings in a row, and you mistook the high byte of the next string as being a null terminator to the previous one?
04:49 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blo​b/stable-0.4/src/util/serialize.cpp#L31
04:54 Zeno` maybe. I really don't want to be looking at this code but it's annoying me heh
04:54 Zeno` and I can't stop myself :(
04:55 Zeno` VanessaE, you still there?
04:55 VanessaE yeah
04:56 Zeno` reverting 133128ab8 makes the inventory lag less noticeable for me
04:56 Zeno` oops sorry
04:56 Zeno` that's my hash id :)
04:56 VanessaE heh
04:57 Zeno` 2f0107f4
04:58 VanessaE I'll try it
04:58 Zeno` it's still there, but seems to be a lot better than before
04:58 Zeno` ok, thanks
04:59 Zeno` gawd, now it's back
05:01 VanessaE aw hell no.
05:02 VanessaE 'nuff said? :)
05:04 Zeno` I'm not looking at this anymore
05:08 Zeno` too annoying :)
05:16 Zeno` there is no problem in e6ad2ace1072160adcf34a254add4447f935268c
05:16 Zeno` maybe just use that
05:16 Zeno` :D
05:58 Zeno` I've added high priority and blocker to #2544 because it seriously affects playability
05:58 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2544 -- Moving items into crafing grid and back got glitchy (regression) on dreambuilder
05:59 Zeno` should probably remove that "on dreambuilder" as well VanessaE
05:59 Zeno` I can notice the regression using minetest_game if I run it under valgrind
05:59 VanessaE tell est31 :)
05:59 Zeno` oh
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05:59 Zeno` lol
05:59 Zeno` I'll just change it myself :)
05:59 VanessaE ok
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07:09 Zeno` hmm reverting 2 commits makes the issue disappear
07:09 Zeno` hmmmm
07:10 hmmmm which ones?
07:10 hmmmm and how did you find them
07:10 Zeno` https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest/commits/master
07:10 hmmmm heh
07:10 Zeno` There are some things I didn't need to revert... I might add them back one by one
07:10 hmmmm there's no way getPeerId() is that slow
07:11 Zeno` you know how much I profiled...
07:11 Zeno` it was never on the radar
07:12 hmmmm i don't get it
07:12 hmmmm how does that cause the regression
07:12 Zeno` nfi... that's why I might add them back one by one
07:12 Zeno` but try it. regression gone
07:13 Zeno` actually I don't want to work on this, so I'll let nazghul add them back one by one
07:13 Zeno` heh
07:13 hmmmm how did you find it so quickly?
07:13 hmmmm i didn't bother working on it actually
07:13 Zeno` well I reverted the commit like you did
07:13 hmmmm i'm working on the opaque handle thing
07:13 Zeno` but it didn't make a difference (as you know)
07:14 Zeno` then i figured that many of the conflicts were caused by that other commit so I decided to start again and revert that other one first
07:14 hmmmm didn't realize that
07:15 hmmmm i just saw "ugh holy shit conflicts" and i just undid what 1b7 did in functionality
07:17 Zeno` well that's what I did at first as well :)
07:18 Zeno` the whole thing would have been easier to revert if those two commits were together
07:18 hmmmm nerzhul does this thing i think on purpose
07:18 hmmmm and to inflate the number of commits
07:21 hmmmm i think the workflow involved with making a PR is better overall since it encourages you to condense all of those kinds of commits down into a single commit, and focus more quality on it
07:22 Zeno` well, yeah. I've reverted stuff that didn't need to be reverted
07:23 Zeno` had to use the hammer :/
07:23 Zeno` but they can be added back
07:24 Zeno` now i've made a mess of my master
07:28 hmmmm hmm
07:29 Zeno` all fixed
07:29 Zeno` I like git
07:32 hmmmm damn
07:32 * Zeno` waves... outside time
07:32 Zeno` damn?
07:32 hmmmm i just noticed a very subtle bug in my code that had been there for about a half a year
07:33 Zeno` :D
07:33 Zeno` sleep well
07:33 hmmmm night
07:41 VanessaE confirmed zeno's "double revert" to fix the problem.
07:41 VanessaE dammit, just missed.
07:53 * VanessaE wanders off to bed
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11:57 Zeno` Any further comments on #2540?
11:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2540 -- Slow down the "key repeat" touch speed some Android controls by Zeno-
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13:01 Zeno` slow night
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14:40 Megaf Hi everyone
14:41 Megaf I'm trying to find the file we have to edit to change this #2539
14:41 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2539 -- Server console/log timestamp format
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14:45 Megaf here? https://github.com/minetest/mi​netest/blob/master/src/log.cpp
14:47 Megaf Found it https://github.com/minetest/minet​est/blob/master/src/log.cpp#L127
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15:04 leat Megaf: https://github.com/minetest/minet​est/blob/master/src/gettime.h#L58
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15:09 Megaf Zeno`: cool
15:09 Megaf #2549
15:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2549 -- Update timestamp to include date by Zeno-
15:11 Zeno` HUGE change
15:11 Megaf Imense
15:11 Megaf so much code added, I'm afraid it will crash the whole network stack Zeno`
15:11 Zeno` it might
15:14 Zeno` might even crash the internet
15:15 Megaf I can foresee some backbones going offline with this change
15:16 Megaf Internet is already slower here since I added this changes to my server!
15:16 Megaf Even the clock is moving slower
15:17 Megaf Zeno`: It would be funny if that actually had side affects on the network stack
15:17 Zeno` I suppose I could make it thread safe but I'm not sure it's worth it
15:18 Megaf safe enough already
15:21 Zeno` @&$*@ though
15:21 Zeno` that's returning a pointer to a local variable (I don't care if it's inline)
15:22 Zeno` that's bad
15:25 Megaf I dont really get why this time thing is defined in two different ways in two different places for the same thing
15:25 Megaf https://github.com/minetest/minet​est/blob/master/src/log.cpp#L127
15:25 Megaf https://github.com/minetest/minet​est/blob/master/src/gettime.h#L58
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15:26 Zeno` it's not
15:26 Zeno` your original link is calling the function referenced in your second
15:29 Megaf I see
15:33 Zeno` oh it's returning std::string already
15:33 Zeno` phew
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15:43 VanessaE Megaf: how about also fixing the "timestamp" on screenshots while you're at it :)
15:49 Megaf ^ Zeno`
15:49 Megaf :P
15:51 Zeno` what timestamp on screenshot?
15:51 Zeno` s
15:52 VanessaE the random number minetest adds to the screenshot filename
15:52 VanessaE makes it pretty well impossible to sort by name
15:52 VanessaE (and in a web view, by date either)
15:53 Zeno` it's not completely random
15:53 VanessaE it should be something more sane like,  screenshot-20150324-115310.png
15:53 VanessaE or something
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16:09 Zeno` I didn't even know you could take a screenshot
16:09 Zeno` heh
16:11 VanessaE I mostly quit using the built-in because of the weird numbering :P
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16:21 Zeno` ok I will merge #2529 I think
16:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2529 -- Protect Player::hud from concurrent modifications by nerzhul
16:21 Zeno` it's pretty trivial
16:21 Zeno` agree, hmmmm?
16:22 hmmmm that was already added
16:22 Zeno` huh
16:22 Zeno` when?
16:22 hmmmm sometime yesterday
16:22 hmmmm i was there when it happened
16:22 Zeno` doh
16:22 hmmmm 0e5e497 and 0ae75f2
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16:23 Zeno` sorry, wrong number... #2549
16:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2549 -- Update timestamp to include date by Zeno-
16:24 Zeno` kind of crazy even asking :/ But...
16:25 Zeno` I should push my latest update which adds a comment after the array size heh
16:25 hmmmm yeah, fine
16:26 Zeno` I know it's a big change so thanks for reviewing
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16:33 twoelk I love that suggestion to add a name based on the date to the screenshot. Would be nice if the seperator in the debug.txt would also sport a date
16:36 Megaf I will be testing the new timestamps in a couple of minutes
16:36 Zeno` I'll do it now then
16:38 Zeno` with the date in the timestamps the date in the separator is probably not essential
16:40 twoelk it simply makes the seperator mor meaningfull when quickly eyeballing the file
16:43 Zeno` VanessaE, twoelk, #2520
16:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2520 -- Android: noclip, fly, etc. buttons are way too sensitive
16:43 VanessaE ?
16:43 Zeno` I cannot type :/
16:43 Zeno` lol
16:43 Zeno` #2550
16:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2550 -- Change filename of screenshots to something more human readable by Zeno-
16:44 Zeno` I leave you with it
16:44 VanessaE wow, that took a fair bit of code.
16:44 Zeno` not really
16:44 * Zeno` wanders off in a daze
16:46 Zeno` so it'll be screenshot_20150324_024600.png
16:46 twoelk VanessaE: :) that was indeed the suggestion that I was refering to
16:46 hmmmm ugh this ruins my workflow
16:46 hmmmm i need a new spacebar heater now
16:46 Zeno` lol
16:47 VanessaE https://xkcd.com/1172/
16:47 VanessaE damn it, ninja'd
16:48 Megaf 2015-03-24 12:47:43: ACTION[ServerThread]: Announcing to servers.minetest.net
16:48 Megaf Looks better
16:50 Megaf VanessaE: we can relate to that
16:53 Zeno` ok, I know it's a big change and hmmmm needs a new spacebar heater but I think I'll just merge it
16:53 Zeno` ok? :)
16:54 hmmmm just add an if (g_settings->getBool("spacebar_heating"))
16:54 * Zeno` adds and merges
16:54 Zeno` lol
16:56 Zeno` damn. I forgot to add the check in config
16:56 Megaf lol
16:59 VanessaE haha
17:00 twoelk be carefull with the spacebar heater, nyankittens may fry
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17:09 Megaf I found a way to reduce the game/source files size in 10.6 MB
17:10 Megaf https://github.com/Megaf/minetest/commit/​d576df9463f1add559fd7743a16fcca2a7b9c38b
17:10 Megaf I will test that and see if there's any difference
17:12 sfan5 are you sure those files are not used?
17:13 Megaf Not at all. I'm compiling that branch now, and then I will do code changes if needed
17:14 sfan5 i think those code changed would include removing the font stuff by sapier
17:14 Megaf Yep
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17:18 VanessaE er, sapier added those font files for the sake of differing sizes when not using freetype
17:19 VanessaE however, bitmap fonts are all but obsolete now in minetest, aren't they?
17:21 VanessaE bbl
17:21 hmmmm if ENABLE_FREETYPE=0, they sure are
17:22 Calinou as said before, we should remove bitmap fonts entirely
17:22 hmmmm if you want to make freetype a mandatory dependency, fix freetype detection first
17:22 Calinou what's wrong with FreeType detection right now?
17:22 hmmmm it simply does not work
17:22 hmmmm it says i don't have freetype installed on my machine when in fact i do
17:23 Megaf removing the files do indeed break the game
17:24 hmmmm i don't think we need to fix what isn't broken
17:24 hmmmm minetest has enough brokenness at the moment
17:26 Megaf Ok, and why arent we using only freetype?
17:26 Megaf Why are we supporting other stuff?
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17:28 Megaf hmmmm: cant freetype lib be bundled with Minetest?
17:29 hmmmm sure
17:29 Calinou don't bundle libraries when it isn't needed, Megaf
17:29 hmmmm how do we decide if a lib should be bundled though
17:29 hmmmm it seems sort of random right now
17:30 paramat hmmmm, #2533 is tested and ready to go once checks finish, please could you check the code?
17:30 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2533 -- lua_api/l_mapgen: generate_ores/decorations: make p1, p2 optional by paramat
17:31 hmmmm looks good
17:31 paramat cool, thanks
17:33 hmmmm i don't like the name GenElement
17:33 Megaf Calinou: interesting, I got a Segmentation Fault removing those files
17:33 Megaf 2015-03-24 17:23:09: ERROR[main]: Using irrlicht default font.
17:33 Megaf Segmentation fault
17:33 hmmmm can somebody come up with a better name for those things that are ores, biomes, decorations, and schematics?
17:33 hmmmm Megaf: sounds like a bug that needs fixing =]
17:34 Megaf hmmmm: well, thats a bug introduced by me on a branch of my fork, how should I report that in Minetest?
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17:34 hmmmm just say that removing those files introduces a segfault and to reproduce, delete the files
17:36 Megaf yep, well, that happened with FREETYPE=0, I will try with =1
17:37 hmmmm well it shouldn't happen with =1, since they'd be ignored anyway
17:38 Megaf Let's see
17:38 Megaf Does windows comes with Freetype?
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17:39 Megaf Anyway, Freetype source coude, compressed is 1.4 MB, much smaller than the fonts files that I removed
17:39 Megaf code*
17:42 Calinou Windows doesn't come with it
17:42 Calinou that's why its font rendering is ugly
17:43 Zeno` Windows
17:43 Zeno` oops
17:43 Zeno` Windows' font rendering is ugly?
17:43 Calinou exactly
17:43 Calinou MacType fixes that partially
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17:45 Megaf Ok, Minetest runs nice when FREETYPE=1
17:46 Zeno` freetype on Linux in fugly.  If not for the infinality patches I'd probably start throwing chairs around. There are two major reasons why Werner is not adding the infinality patches to freetype; the most enlightening one is that he believes they reduce performance
17:48 Zeno` So at least he's very conscious of keeping the lib as fast and small as possible :)
17:49 Zeno` But, it has its flaws
17:49 rubenwardy Kenney is offering to pay a developer for adding features to the engine he wants: https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=173859#p173859
17:50 hmmmm why doesn't he just list the features he wants
17:51 hmmmm developers *will* add them on their own with no incentive if they're good features
17:52 Zeno` well if it's interesting enough
17:53 rubenwardy His public to do list is here: https://trello.com/b/EOPoI8Au/voxus-to-do
17:53 rubenwardy New UI API/engine
17:53 rubenwardy Custom keystrokes
17:53 rubenwardy Random textures
17:53 rubenwardy Advanced connected textures
17:53 rubenwardy Change sound pitch
17:53 hmmmm sounds like everything i want
17:53 Zeno` same
17:54 Zeno` New UI is a big task though
17:54 hmmmm i don't think so -
17:54 hmmmm it depends on how you go about it
17:54 Zeno` possibly
17:54 hmmmm my implementation is going to be super lightweight
17:54 Zeno` mine is going to be lightweight AND attractive
17:54 hmmmm oh okay :)
17:54 rubenwardy Lol
17:54 hmmmm we should collaborate
17:54 hmmmm i'm serious
17:54 Zeno` me too
17:54 rubenwardy > Open source
17:55 rubenwardy > Collaboration
17:55 rubenwardy XD
17:55 Zeno` I think I mentioned a while ago I was interested in that aspect of the engine
17:55 hmmmm yeah
17:55 rubenwardy Joking, of course. A new UI system would be very good to see.
17:55 Megaf folks, #2551
17:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2551 -- Minetest segfaults on start if png and xml fonts files are removed from the fonts folder.
17:55 hmmmm the UI system would be probably the first thing to get added with client side modding
17:55 hmmmm but the RPC mechanism needs to come first
17:55 Megaf it should crash, not segfault
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17:56 hmmmm formspec compatibility can be done basically with a set of lua functions that abstract it away with client side mods and RPC
17:56 rubenwardy remote procedure call?
17:56 hmmmm yeah
17:56 hmmmm it's really goddamn simple too
17:56 hmmmm we already have lua serialization
17:57 Zeno` we should chat tomorrow, hmmmm. Right now it's 4AM and I need to kinda sleep
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17:57 hmmmm the work consists of adding a new packet and some script mangement code
17:57 hmmmm transferring serialized lua
17:57 hmmmm okay night Zeno`
17:57 Zeno` O/
17:57 hmmmm lol, it's 2 PM for me
17:57 * Zeno` idles 'til he disconnects
17:57 hmmmm i shouldn't start too many things at once
17:58 rubenwardy We need some way of talking about technical details that is time independant. Github issues just isn't being used for this.
17:58 hmmmm finishing up schematics to make them what they should've been all along is top priority
17:58 hmmmm yeah, forum would be nice in theory but it's too noisy
18:00 rubenwardy A seperate developer forum which is semi-hidden (linked to from dev.minetest.net, github issues and IRC). Problem is that you'll still get those kind of talkative users who won't be able to help with the technical side.
18:00 rubenwardy Like that user on Github Issues
18:00 hmmmm they feel like they need to give a comment on everything 8)
18:01 rubenwardy Yeah. I wish I could be more helpful, I just don't have the know how
18:03 rubenwardy If time and work was no problem, we'd probably end up clearing the repo and rewriting most of the project. Same ethos, more consistent code. But that's infeasible of course.
18:05 paramat okay now pushing 2533
18:05 rubenwardy #2533
18:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2533 -- lua_api/l_mapgen: generate_ores/decorations: make p1, p2 optional by paramat
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18:10 neoascetic If mapgen v7 is supposed to be extendable by nodes only, why there are flowers, and sand, and stone?
18:10 hmmmm ???
18:10 paramat lol
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18:11 paramat i'll explain in a moment
18:12 neoascetic Ok, I am waiting
18:12 rubenwardy sand, flowers and stones are nodes?
18:12 neoascetic yes
18:13 neoascetic not sure for flowers though :)
18:14 hmmmm i don't really understand the question being asked
18:14 rubenwardy Neither do  I :P
18:14 neoascetic Where trees (which also nodes) and other stuff?
18:15 rubenwardy Trees etc are decorations?
18:15 paramat the default v7 biomes can be removed and replaced by your own biomes defined by the biome API
18:15 neoascetic Why flowers are better than everything else?
18:15 neoascetic default v7 biomes are empty
18:15 paramat the default biomes are unfinished
18:15 neoascetic I mean, there is no trees and all the stuff
18:15 paramat see my biomesdev mod for the work in progress
18:16 paramat we put a simple grassland biome in to stop the complaints about v7 being only stone
18:17 paramat of course now the complaints are 'where are the trees?' lol ;)
18:17 neoascetic Okay, i. e. default biomes will exist in v7 when it is finished? Or with mods only?
18:17 paramat yes
18:18 neoascetic Yes on second question? :)
18:18 paramat first
18:18 neoascetic Oh, great
18:18 paramat with the option of removing them and creating your own
18:18 neoascetic I really like v7 output (all these rivers/etc)
18:18 paramat yes it's my favourite mapgen
18:18 neoascetic (hope it will be finished one day)
18:19 paramat i'll be tuning the terrain a little so it will get better
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18:19 paramat just 1-2 months it will be ready
18:19 rubenwardy And then v8!
18:19 paramat lol
18:19 rubenwardy http://sandbox.ltmnet.com/images/vl/1503.00.png
18:19 paramat and v9
18:19 rubenwardy * :3
18:20 paramat hopefully one by hmmmmm and one by me
18:20 rubenwardy hmmmm, that's the sort of flexibility which would be nice.
18:20 neoascetic paramat I saw your paragenv7 mod - will we have something like that when v7 is finished?
18:21 hmmmm mapgens are supposed to have unique personalities but no "crazy" terrain and one-off features
18:21 paramat similar but better, see the 'mapgen news' thread on the forum
18:21 hmmmm those things are supposed to be for mods
18:21 hmmmm balanced for easy playability
18:21 Tablet_One I can't wait to see the new mapgens
18:22 paramat you can use my biomesdev mod already in v5/v7 for a taste
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18:23 paramat BTW push complete
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18:24 neoascetic great, so I'll wait for another 1-2 month before starting my server: I want only default biomes on the map
18:25 paramat back later
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18:42 hmmmm yaY my replacement hard drive came
18:46 rubenwardy Woohoo! :P#
18:59 Krock hmmmm, what have you done to destroy the older one?
19:01 VanessaE Krock: dd-wipe the drive once, if possible, then nail the HDD to a tree, aim shotgun, fire.  take resultant pieces, dissolve in acid.
19:01 VanessaE :)
19:01 Krock VanessaE, have you tried all ways to make sure it works?
19:02 VanessaE Krock: I was joking :P
19:02 VanessaE there's an old rumor that the US Navy used to do something not too dissimilar from that when decommissioning a hdd.
19:03 VanessaE (supposedly they'd wipe, shred into fine particles, scatter at sea)
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19:09 rubenwardy Guttman method
19:09 rubenwardy or whatever
19:09 rubenwardy ~g guttmann method
19:09 ShadowBot rubenwardy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutmann_method | The Gutmann method is an algorithm for securely erasing the contents of computer hard drives, such as files. Devised by Peter Gutmann and Colin Plumb and ...
19:09 rubenwardy We should implement this into Minetest!
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19:10 Calinou it's BS
19:12 rubenwardy Probably
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19:29 hmmmm the previous one arrived DOA but i didn't realize that for about a month since i was busy with other stuff and never got to install it
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19:37 VanessaE aw man, spoil my joke :P
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21:12 paramat sfan5 Tesseract here's a PR for MTGame that will speed up mapgen game#474 can anyone approve? i can push it for you
21:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/474 -- flowers/mapgen.lua: Register flower decorations for mgv6 by paramat
21:14 paramat i would like to do the same for default mod papyrus, cacti and grasses in another PR
21:15 hmmmm paramat, i tried biomesdev v7 and i didn't see any cacti in the regular, square pattern like in the screenshot
21:15 hmmmm i've seen it before but it takes rather specific noise params to reproduce it...
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21:16 paramat biomesdev uses deco code so no square pseudorandom patterns
21:17 paramat those patterns occur in mgv6 only due to bad pseudorandom
21:17 hmmmm ohh
21:18 hmmmm are you *sure* about that?
21:18 hmmmm because i've noticed it myself
21:18 hmmmm you realize that decorations use pseudorandom too
21:18 paramat oh hang on, i guess it could happen because the deco code uses pseudorandom
21:19 paramat you will improve the PR code?
21:19 hmmmm i need to replace all instances of PseudoRandom with PcgRandom
21:19 paramat yeah
21:19 hmmmm all?
21:19 hmmmm well hrmm
21:20 paramat well whatever
21:20 hmmmm i can't really change PseudoRandom in CavesV6 because with mapgen v6, caves are part of the terrain
21:20 paramat at least in deco code
21:20 hmmmm yeah
21:21 paramat the old PR code seems okay with caves, not noticeable
21:21 paramat the issue in biomesdev is tree density dropping in patchy areas
21:22 paramat seen best in jungles because they should be solid
21:22 paramat often density drops on hills and 3D noise terrain
21:22 paramat it's bemusing
21:25 paramat affects tree schems only, the junglegrass in jungles is solid as it should be
21:31 paramat as for schematics, i have a request: i need a way to convert the lua data table of a lua-table-defined-schematic into a .mts file. worldedit cannot do several essential things, and surprisingly lua tables are often easier and faster to work with
21:33 est31 paramat, what exactly do you mean with that request?
21:34 est31 and what are those essential things.
21:36 est31 because, as I read it, you request what "minetest.serialize" effectively does.
21:36 paramat placing ignore nodes, punching air to set it's probability, setting y-slice probabilities
21:37 hmmmm yes totally agreed
21:37 paramat however even if those are enabled lua tables are often much better to work with
21:37 hmmmm i'll have to create conversion routines for lua -> mts and vice versa
21:38 paramat great
21:38 hmmmm i was always dissatisfied with how cumbersome creating schematics is
21:38 est31 still not getting you. perhaps I need context...
21:38 paramat this is the final obstacle to finishing v5/v7 biomes
21:38 paramat erm there's a thread at github..
21:39 est31 paramat, do you address me? which thread do you mean?
21:39 paramat https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2481
21:40 est31 ok thx
21:44 paramat essentially when working with force-placed schems i need to place ignore nodes or alternatively set air probability to zero. y-slice prob is needed to vary tree height
21:47 paramat for saplings: because there are now 2 sets of tree designs i might need a sapling abm to detect mapgen and either choose mgv6 lua tree spawn code or spawn a v5/v7 schematic
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22:01 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
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