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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-08-09

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Time Nick Message
00:02 sapier left #minetest-dev
00:04 Zefram_Fysh I mostly talk about pipeworks because its tubed items are the only entities in whose programming I'm really involved, that's all.  I'm afraid I don't have any more normal example to work with, and I do worry a bit that it might give me a skewed idea of what's good for the entity system in general
00:11 kahrl since when does changing something (causing the -dirty suffix to be added to the githash) cause all the files which use the version to be recompiled?
00:11 kahrl ^ shows how long I've not been coding on minetest :P
00:13 kahrl oh, since android support it seems, so I've seen it but not noticed it yet
00:13 kahrl and the recent commit by sfan5 fixed some of it
00:16 kahrl why does version.h include any other files at all? I specifically made it so it doesn't include anything else, to avoid this exact issue
00:16 kahrl the includes are done in version.cpp instead
00:16 kahrl s/are/should be
00:18 kahrl but I don't know anything about android so I can't fix it
00:30 kahrl VanessaE: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1550
00:30 kahrl I like one-liner fixes :)
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00:35 VanessaE kahrl: did you test it with some of the more....shall we say...esoteric ways to get deleted? :)
00:35 kahrl such as?
00:35 Zeno` what are these more erotic ways?
00:35 Zeno` err nvm
00:35 kahrl lmao
00:37 VanessaE kahrl: like being deleted when the server decides it needs to delete "suspicious numbers" of objects in a mapblock :)
00:37 kahrl no
00:37 VanessaE Zeno`: get your mind out of the sewer, I already had to kick someone out of the server channel earlier ;)
00:38 kahrl each of the esoteric ways probably needs its own fix
00:39 VanessaE likely yeah
00:39 kahrl we can't just disallow m_removed on player objects, because when a player disconnects there needs to be a way of removing the object
00:40 VanessaE right
00:42 Jordach if it's a playerSAO don't kill it
00:42 kahrl are player objects really allowed to be made static? otherwise I don't get how the "suspiciously large" code could delete them
00:43 VanessaE neither do I, but somehow it happens.
00:44 VanessaE kahrl:  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1425
00:45 kahrl oh, that's a different part of the code, let me check
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00:51 Zeno` What is the mod *wants* to remove the player object?
00:51 Zeno` if*
00:53 kahrl Zeno`: why would it?
00:53 Zeno` Not sure. I guess, though, the API doc should have a comment that it doesn't work on player objects (just looking at the patch)
00:54 kahrl true
00:56 kahrl Zeno`: fixed
00:58 kahrl VanessaE: what would be the easiest way to reproduce the "suspiciously large" issue?
00:59 VanessaE kahrl: I haven't found any pattern to it except perhaps to force some mod to go apeshit and start creating thousands of entities.
00:59 VanessaE possibly it's enough to make lots of gravel/sand fall?
01:00 VanessaE (if that doesn't trigger a nodeupdate() overflow :P )
01:00 kahrl I tried it with item objects first, but RBA's merge code kicked in :)
01:00 VanessaE heh
01:01 VanessaE I think you'll have to do something more like modify simple mobs or similar to cause it to go out of control, let's say
01:01 VanessaE (no, I don't use it)
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01:05 kahrl well or just go into minimal and run /dummyball 50 times
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01:07 VanessaE dummyball?
01:07 VanessaE that's a new one to me
01:11 kahrl I can get the message "Trying to store id=..." no problem, but how can I get player SAOs into the problematic area when that happens?
01:12 kahrl because if there are players there, the mapblocks should not get deactivated, and they aren't when I try it
01:12 VanessaE only way I've found to reliably do it is to sign on already in the area.
01:12 VanessaE e.g. somehow get the entities to be created, sign off, then sign back on
01:12 kahrl ah
01:12 kahrl let me test that
01:12 VanessaE you join into the overloaded mapblock and kaboom
01:12 VanessaE problem of course is reliably overloading a mapblock
01:13 kahrl well, it's trivial with /dummyball
01:13 kahrl oh wait
01:13 VanessaE ?
01:13 kahrl it deleted the PlayerSAO! yay!
01:13 VanessaE :D
01:14 kahrl (without reconnecting)
01:14 VanessaE finally found a way to reproduce it
01:14 kahrl well I'm not sure what I did
01:14 kahrl the player that got disconnected was in a completely different area of the map when it happened
01:15 Zeno` <kahrl> well I'm not sure what I did    <-- that's always encouraging :D
01:16 kahrl yeah, isn't it? :)
01:16 VanessaE kahrl: welcome to the obscurity of this glitch
01:28 * VanessaE watches kahrl blow a vein over this one ;)
01:31 kahrl heh
01:32 kahrl well, I can't reproduce it :(
01:33 kahrl but I noticed that when a player logs out, the server sometimes doesn't recognize that and the player stays until timeout
01:33 kahrl very annoying for this test :P
01:35 VanessaE yes, I've noticed that too.
01:35 VanessaE (the failed logout)
01:37 kahrl any ideas? when did it start to happen?
01:39 kahrl I'm reluctant to open another issue given the number we have now :/
01:42 VanessaE it's been happening since ShadowNinja's commit.
01:42 Zeno` irrlicht shaders are weird; they appear to leak memory but I'm not sure if they really do
01:42 VanessaE well the deleted-player issue has been; the failed logouts?  I don't know when those started.
01:43 kahrl Zeno`: they do
01:43 kahrl it's impossible to delete materials without shutting down irrlicht entirely iirc
01:43 Zeno` so it's an upstream problem?
01:43 kahrl yeah
01:43 Zeno` ah, ok, I see now
02:01 Zefram_Fysh re missed logouts, it looks to me that there's no attempt in the code to communicate leaving reliably.  it's not treated as a game message, it's only detected as connection closing, and the connection protocol only sends an unreliable-packet notification of disconnection
02:02 Zefram_Fysh so if the packet gets dropped, the client thinks it's done but the server has no idea that the client has gone away
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02:07 kahrl Zefram_Fysh: indeed
02:08 kahrl what curious about it is that it even happens on localhost
02:08 kahrl what's*
02:08 Zefram_Fysh yes, that is curious
02:08 kahrl I'm looking at wireshark right now and there is no DISCO packet
02:08 Zefram_Fysh apparently loopback networking is quite a faithful simulation of wired networking
02:08 kahrl heh
02:09 kahrl the client responds with ICMP port unreachable after it has quit, but the server apparently doesn't care about that
02:09 Zefram_Fysh hrm
02:11 Zefram_Fysh the server *could* pay attention to the ICMP error and infer a client disconnection, but that in itself is not reliable, and using it would rule out some kinds of session recovery
02:13 kahrl the problem with sending DISCO packets reliably is that the Connection object is deleted as soon as the client exits
02:13 kahrl and there is nobody else around who could resend that packet
02:13 Zefram_Fysh I think leaving the game should be treated as a positive game action, with reliable delivery of a TOSERVER_QUIT message.  that'd cover clean quitting.  if the user just kills the client program then you don't get the notification, but you can't really do anything about that case
02:14 kahrl that'd be quite annoying for the user though
02:14 kahrl since so many servers are extremely laggy, you don't want to wait another half a minute or so when you just want to quit
02:15 Zefram_Fysh yes, an extra round-trip pause.  but you could fork off a process to handle the quit notification in the background
02:15 kahrl sounds like fun :P
02:15 kahrl how'd you do it on windows?
02:15 Zefram_Fysh this is what we get for not using TCP
02:16 Zefram_Fysh oh, no idea about Windows.  ask someone who codes for it.  there *are* ways to arrange background processing, but they're quite different from Unix
02:16 kahrl there'd be people going like "I exited minetest, why is there still a minetest.exe in task manager? What is this malware?!?!111"
02:17 Zefram_Fysh yeah, probably
02:18 kahrl I'd say make the server respond to ICMP errors, that's the nearest approximation to the correct thing
02:19 kahrl (that is not annoying for the user)
02:19 Zefram_Fysh it's a bandaid on the current basically-wrong system.  I think the correct thing is to implement our own reliable notification
02:20 VanessaE oh nice.  here's a new one:
02:20 VanessaE terminate called after throwing an instance of 'SerializationError'
02:20 VanessaE what():  String too long for serializeString
02:20 VanessaE (crashed)
02:20 Zefram_Fysh and you'd be amazed how many networks just don't transport ICMP packets
02:20 kahrl VanessaE: stop it with your bugs :P
02:21 VanessaE and...kaboom
02:21 VanessaE twice in a row
02:22 kahrl Zefram_Fysh: if I designed it from scratch, I'd use TCP for session management and reliable messages and UDP for the rest
02:22 Zeno` a string > 65535 characters... nice
02:22 VanessaE nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany
02:22 VanessaE anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyan
02:22 VanessaE yanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyan​yanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyan​yanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyan​yanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyan​yanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyan​yanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyan​yanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyan​yanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyan​yanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya
02:22 VanessaE nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanya​nyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany
02:22 VanessaE anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany​anyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyanyany
02:22 VanessaE FUCK
02:22 VanessaE well there's your answer
02:22 VanessaE sorry, didn't know it would do THAT
02:23 Zeno` so a string > 65535 repeating nyan
02:23 Zeno` maybe it has a furball
02:23 VanessaE so it appears.
02:23 VanessaE it's in a signs_lib sign
02:24 VanessaE making a routine piece of metadata
02:25 kahrl wait, doesn't that use serializeLongString?
02:25 kahrl yes it does
02:25 VanessaE kahrl: apparently not.  the code:  https://github.com/VanessaE/homedecor_mod​pack/blob/master/signs_lib/init.lua#L478
02:26 Zeno` well, it can't either because serializeLongString() doesn't throw that error :P
02:27 VanessaE what is the solution here?
02:27 VanessaE the text is already there of course, so it's too late to truncate the input
02:28 VanessaE maybe I can just crop it on readback when it reconstructs the sign.
02:28 hmmmm phew
02:28 hmmmm back
02:28 VanessaE wb
02:29 ^v joined #minetest-dev
02:29 hmmmm was away all week
02:29 kahrl VanessaE: how did it even save the metadata to the map when it can't serialize it
02:29 VanessaE kahrl: beats the hell out of me :P
02:31 kahrl can you set a breakpoint on the line that throws that exception and get a backtrace?
02:32 VanessaE I haven't the foggiest clue how to do set a breakpoint, but I can backtrace it at least.
02:32 kahrl in gdb?
02:32 kahrl "break util/serialize.cpp:36" or something like that
02:33 Exio4 VanessaE is a spammer
02:33 * Exio4 bans VanessaE
02:34 VanessaE eh, you would say that now, after I already loaded it to gdb :)
02:34 VanessaE (read: it's already running)
02:35 kahrl well you can always pause it
02:35 VanessaE too late, already crashed it.  want the bt anyway? :)
02:35 kahrl sure, no worries :)
02:35 VanessaE thread apply all ?
02:35 kahrl yeah
02:36 VanessaE hm, that's not the command.
02:36 VanessaE been too long since I ran that. :P
02:36 kahrl thread apply all bt full
02:36 kahrl (or without the full)
02:37 ^v joined #minetest-dev
02:37 VanessaE got it.
02:38 VanessaE http://pastebin.com/vkHu3ACS
02:38 VanessaE (long)
02:39 kahrl 0x000000000059c6c4 in ObjectProperties::serialize
02:39 kahrl so it's not node metadata, at least not directly
02:39 VanessaE it's the entity.
02:40 VanessaE the one the sign bears with the text on it
02:40 VanessaE that explains why the text can render before the server dies
02:40 kahrl the string that is too long is an insanely long texture name
02:40 VanessaE yes
02:40 VanessaE all those ^[transform etc etc commands
02:40 VanessaE ok I can trim this in my code then
02:41 VanessaE but that suggests the server has a ... weakness ;)
02:41 Miner_48er joined #minetest-dev
02:44 kahrl what happened to the idea of a ^[data modifier that reads a base64-encoded PNG?
02:44 kahrl or something along those lines
02:44 VanessaE wouldn't work here
02:44 kahrl why not?
02:44 VanessaE this is realtime interpreting of the text input.
02:44 VanessaE local function make_infotext(text_in)
02:44 VanessaE local len = strng.len(text_in)
02:44 VanessaE local text = string.sub(text_in, 1, math.floor(512, len))
02:44 VanessaE that ought to fix it?
02:44 VanessaE er, string.len().
02:45 kahrl what does math.floor do with two arguments?
02:45 kahrl oh, math.min
02:45 VanessaE oops
02:45 VanessaE right, I meant that one
02:45 VanessaE not math.floor
02:46 VanessaE derp
02:46 kahrl but the infotext isn't the problem, right?
02:46 VanessaE I'll apply it to both
02:46 kahrl that should work, yeah
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02:54 VanessaE ok let's see if that gets around that bug
02:55 VanessaE nope.  it go boom. :)
02:55 VanessaE but that's ok, I'll figure it out.
02:55 kahrl how does the entity construct its texture name when it is loaded?
02:55 VanessaE still, does this qualify as my bug or the engine's? ;)
02:55 kahrl a WONTFIX engine bug :P
02:55 VanessaE it's loaded from the text in the meta and ripped apart one char at a time, then the texture "filename" is built up from that
02:56 kahrl maybe 512 is still too long
02:56 VanessaE oh I see why
02:56 VanessaE forgot to account for the on_activate callback.
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03:44 VanessaE ok, fixed it.
03:46 Zeno` should I be worried? I don't want to clearobjects again
03:46 VanessaE nope
03:46 VanessaE just update... noe
03:46 VanessaE now(*
03:46 VanessaE ...
03:49 VanessaE fwiw, https://github.com/VanessaE/homedecor_modpack/c​ommit/03902e5392a10c046123314472a16c8a2787ccf2
03:50 VanessaE ultimately, that break on line 374 is what fixed it, but the trim is still needed as an extra layer of protection against stupid users.
03:51 VanessaE s/users/abusers/
04:18 kahrl I've tried it several hundred times now, but I could only reproduce #1425 that one time
04:24 VanessaE it's tricky to reproduce :)
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06:30 sapier kahrl Zefram_Fysh the disco message was sent reliably in my first version of protocol fix, celeron did veto as that did delay localhost shutdown for him for a few seconds, that's why disco is now sent unreliable and additionaly connection timeout is decreased to to a subsecond value ... resulting in a quite high chance disconnect message isn't actually sent
06:31 sapier you do get a clean shutdown without those changes ... yet it may result in client hang for some seconds on errorneous servers
06:31 Zefram_Fysh ah, thanks, that explains it
06:33 sapier most likely the disco is sent correct if there's not much to talk for client and server but once there's a lot of traffic disco packet will not manage to get sent
06:34 sapier kahrl ... I already do have a tcp/udp mixed implementation ... it never got merged
06:35 kahrl maybe in 0.5?
06:35 sapier because of noone did evaluate if the protocol mix is really better then using an external protocol e.g. enet
06:35 kahrl hmm, I see the disco packet goes through the outgoing queue
06:35 sapier you don't need 0.5 for it as it can be done backward compatible
06:35 kahrl maybe it could bypass this queue?
06:36 sapier so we could add tcp support in one version and drop udp next
06:36 kahrl ah
06:36 sapier bypassing lower layer internals ... are you serious ;-)
06:37 sapier you'd still not have a guarantee for it to be sent
06:37 kahrl why not?
06:37 sapier unless you send it completely on your own ... which is quite insane as of design perspective
06:38 kahrl or just assign it the highest priority, if that's possible
06:38 sapier well to be more exact, you still wont have a guarantee for it to reach server
06:38 kahrl yeah, but what I was seeing that even on localhost it sometimes isn't even sent
06:39 sapier especially localhost is supposed to not send it
06:39 kahrl huh?
06:39 kahrl you mean singleplayer?
06:39 sapier singleplayer and multiplayer server
06:39 kahrl yeah, but a second minetest instance connecting to a minetest server on localhost
06:40 kahrl I only got disco packets about half the time in this scenario
06:40 sapier yes as it's sent unreliable protocol doesn't really care about it beeing sent
06:41 sapier switch it to reliable and it's gonna be sent for sure ... at cost of shutdown delay
06:41 sapier for what I remember we don't even flush the send unreliable send queue on shutdown
06:42 kahrl just replace sendAsPacket with rawSendAsPacket
06:42 kahrl ?
06:43 sapier then  a disco might be sent prior reliables to be sent
06:43 kahrl does that really matter?
06:43 sapier of course
06:44 sapier reliables are sent on shutdown
06:44 sapier if you send the disconnect prior them to be sent you may loose the last changes
06:44 kahrl but if the disco packet is unreliable anyway how does the current code ensure this?
06:45 sapier unreliables are always sent after reliable packets
06:45 kahrl hmm
06:45 sapier but as you mention there might be a whole in there true
06:46 sapier e.g. if a reliable packet is lost
06:46 sapier still inverting priority will increase risk
06:47 sapier unless we delay the disconnect until all reliables are sent ... well ... more safe but almost a guarantee for disconnect to be lost
06:47 sapier basically the only sane way is making disconnect a reliable packet
06:48 kahrl or use TCP and make the kernel deal with this :)
06:49 sapier what would be the difference to making it a reliable packet? ;-P
06:49 kahrl if it's a reliable packet you have to keep the old Connection running until the disco is acknowledged
06:49 sapier same for tcp
06:50 kahrl yeah, but the kernel does that in the background for you
06:50 sapier true
06:51 kahrl at least you can configure it that way, never really played with the linger options etc.
06:51 sapier well as I said I already did implement that variant by now it wasn't agreed on it because noone did evaluat if other protocols might be equal without having to add a second port to firewall
06:51 Zefram_Fysh when doing it ourselves on UDP, we could background the closure, just have to do it explicitly
06:52 sapier I tried to evaluate it against enet ... but at least by that time enet internal statistics where skrewed up and did result in unbelievable values ... e.g. not even a us jitter
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06:53 sapier and guys ... don't we have more pressing problems then a lost disconnect packet which isn't even noticed by player? ;-)
06:55 kahrl well, I noticed it ;)
06:55 sapier you're a developer not a player ;-P
06:55 kahrl but you are right, I didn't even want to create an issue on github for this
06:56 Calinou being a developer and not a player isn't funny
06:56 sapier developers have way bigger chance to notice as the do way mor frequent connect disconnect cycles
06:56 Calinou it's how you end up with gameplay regressions, sometimes happening due to engine changes.
06:57 sapier Calinou: sometimes we can't avoid to change things but it's something we try not to do to often
06:57 sapier #1547 seems to be way more relevant then the lost disco
06:57 Calinou changing isn't bad, but having unfixable gameplay regression isn't
06:57 Calinou eg. jumpable = false doesn't work anymore
06:58 Calinou bouncy makes you bounce too high when holding jump key
06:58 sapier that's most likely not a intended change did you write a issue yet?
06:59 Zeno` I looked at #1547 today and couldn't reproduce (probably because I don't have windows hah)
06:59 kahrl when did jumpable = false/true do anything, and what?
06:59 kahrl I don't remember that
06:59 sapier argh ... since when does github log each label change even those you correct immediatly because you did miss the right one?
07:02 kahrl Zeno`: I guess he is using the 32-bit build and it fails after it has eaten the available address space
07:03 kahrl but I don't use windows either, so idk
07:03 Zeno` I don't think it should use that much RAM right at start though
07:03 Zeno` although I get your point... hmm
07:03 sapier depends on texture pack used
07:04 sapier at least if "start" means login
07:05 Zeno` yes, login is what I meant. I know that's when the issue was happening "not long after login" because I was watching the discussion on another network :)
07:05 Calinou kahrl, it's a group, prevented jumping while standing on the node with the group
07:05 Calinou useful for eg. cushions
07:05 Calinou ah, it's disable_jump
07:06 sapier if we did now about a hdx texture pack beeing used we'd have a possible reason for it to happen as it's quite easy to fill up 2gb of ram with those
07:07 Zeno` it'd be nice to have a bt but by the time I realised what the conversation was about qwrwed had left
07:07 Zeno` plus I don't know how I'd get him to supply a bt from windows anyway
07:08 Calinou GitHub logs label changes since 2 weeks ago
07:08 sapier as irrlicht doesn't support compressed textures we use a lot of memory for them thus hdx packs are basically unusable on 32 bit version ... well as almost noone has a 32 bit os nowadays that's low prio
07:09 kahrl the 32-bit version is the only bold one on the download page, so I suspect most people use it
07:09 sapier Calinou: if they didn't do it that prominent, e.g. by just adding a small line of text that feature would be actually usefull
07:09 sapier kahrl: guess that's a error :-)
07:10 sapier at least if the hdx packs are really reason for this bug
07:10 Zeno` I've added their nick to my alert list
07:10 Zeno` If I see them again tonight I'll ask
07:11 Calinou probably shouldn't be logged if changed less than 24 hours after posting
07:12 Zeno` Surely VE would have asked them if they were using HDX though (she was involved in the conversation)
07:12 Zeno` *shrug*
07:14 celeron55 > being a developer and not a player isn't funny > it's how you end up with gameplay regressions, sometimes happening due to engine changes.
07:14 celeron55 i think taoki is more of a player than a developer
07:14 celeron55 if you're referring to bouncy, that's who broke it :P
07:15 celeron55 (afaik)
07:15 Calinou me too
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07:31 sfan5 sapier: the 32-bit version is in bold on the dl page because some people still use 32bit
07:31 sfan5 and working but not optimal is better than not working at all+
07:31 sfan5 s/+//
07:31 sapier if you know someone using a 32 bit os you'd be quite unpolite not to tell her/him to update immediatly
07:32 sfan5 -> Krock
07:32 sfan5 go ahead and try to convince him
07:32 sfan5 ;)
07:32 sapier I assume he's using winxp?
07:32 sfan5 yes
07:33 sapier quite insane nowadays
07:34 sfan5 maybe automatically detecting whether 32-bit or 64-bit would be good idea
07:34 sapier why?
07:34 sfan5 less thinking for users
07:34 sapier it's a compile time decision we don't need to detect ;-)
07:34 sfan5 uh
07:34 sapier oh you're talking about webpage
07:34 sfan5 yes
07:35 sapier indeed good idea
07:36 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1457 ok to merge ?
07:38 Calinou https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1551 | https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1552 → tag as bug for both
07:39 Calinou thanks
07:39 sfan5 sapier: looks good
07:39 sapier btw if someone wants to fix sqlite I'll not stop her/him ;-)
07:40 sapier but be warned sqlite code is far from simple :-) I didn't even find a point to start at when looking at it ... well at least not within reasonable time
07:40 Calinou https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1549 → if it isn't a bug, why isn't it closed?
07:41 Calinou also, how are you supposed to get back in main menu?
07:41 Calinou (does it quit the game, or leave you with blank background?)
07:41 sapier it leaves game
07:41 sapier it's doubleclick formspec exit added for android
07:42 Calinou yes, but for desktop it could be confusing
07:42 Calinou shouldn't apply to main menu on desktop, only other formspecs
07:42 sfan5 why other formspecs?
07:42 Calinou we have Alt + F4, Escape and the X button to close already on desktop :P
07:42 Calinou sfan5, to quit them without using keyboard
07:42 sapier there's no difference between mainmenu and "other" formspecs ;-P
07:42 sfan5 It should be completly disabled on desktop
07:43 sapier it's quite simple to add a setting just noone mentioned this to be an issue prior 0.4.11 ... and it's been in there for months at that time
07:44 sfan5 Calinou: and who exactly _needs_ that?
07:44 sapier android
07:44 sfan5 no
07:44 sapier yes
07:44 sfan5 on desktop
07:44 Calinou people who can't touch keyboard for any reason
07:44 Calinou eg. busy hand
07:44 Calinou it's cool if you can perform an action with both devices, not only just keyboard or mouse
07:44 sapier well if there's a setting both of you can be happy ;-P
07:45 sfan5 just add a setting
07:45 sapier default to false (no double click exit) and true on android
07:45 kahrl I don't want so many settings
07:45 sfan5 *sigh*
07:45 sapier well I prefere a setting to a ifdef
07:45 kahrl can we add a setting so I can disable there being a setting for this?
07:46 sfan5 that sounds like a good idea
07:46 sapier we already have way to many android specific ifdefs spread around code they should be in port layer only but that's not possible by now
07:47 Calinou settings are coo
07:47 Calinou you don't have to expose all of them in GUI
07:47 Calinou but do keep settings
07:47 Calinou see how Xonotic does it
07:47 sapier well this one won't be exposed on gui for sure
07:47 Calinou customization (Xfce) is more popular than lack of customization (GNOME 3)
07:48 sapier but having a look at about:config in firefox makes our amount of settings feel way more small ;-)
08:10 kahrl sapier: can the includes in version.h be moved to version.cpp?
08:17 casimir I just thought that there is some bug crashing the game. When it is intentional then it is no problem at all.
08:19 Calinou what did you do to crash it, casimir?
08:21 casimir It did not crash, I thought the exiting was a crash.
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09:59 Taoki [10:11:44] <celeron55> i think taoki is more of a player than a developer
09:59 Taoki I'm kinda both, I think. I do a little of each, but I think the most time I've spent on Minetest recently was to work on mods.
10:02 Zefram_Fysh sapier et al: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/414613 [PATCH] Preserve node predictions until server catches up -- also available as git://git.fysh.org/zefram/m​inetest/minetest_engine.git branch zefram/prediction_preservation
10:02 Calinou well, you caused at least 3 bugs with your physics changes :P
10:02 Calinou none of these have been fixed
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10:39 Zeno` Can '-' be prohibited from being the first character of a playername?
10:39 Zeno` it's kind of annoying
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10:40 Zeno` how do I rm those usernames anyway? (those starting with '-')?
10:43 kahrl Zeno`: rm -- -username
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10:43 Zeno` thank you
10:44 Zeno` that '-' makes things difficult
10:44 Zeno` maybe it should be disallowed as the first char of a username?
10:45 kahrl what about the legitimate players who already have such a username?
10:45 Zeno` not sure
10:45 Zeno` rm them :)
10:45 PenguinDad Zeno`: you could use a modified version of forbidden_usernames to disallow these names
10:45 Zeno` PenguinDad, good point
11:30 Zefram_Fysh "rm ./-foo" is the even better way to handle a filename beginning with "-".  tools vary in how they process "--", but everything handles "./-foo"
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13:53 VanessaE sapier: I guess I should have warned you that Zefram_Fysh will pursue a line of thought to its logical conclusion ;-)
13:53 VanessaE (which is a good thing)
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14:59 sapier kahrl I don't know if those includes can be moved bu why is version.h included that often?
15:04 sapier Zefram_Fysh: could you do a poll request for this as I have to comment multiple things
15:04 Zefram_Fysh I can't create a github pull request
15:04 sapier ok then the painfull way
15:05 sapier you can't just skip TOCLIENT_REMOVENODE as those could be issued by another client
15:06 Zefram_Fysh do clients ever actually talk direct to each other?  I don't see any code that would do that
15:06 sapier no but their changes could be sent that way
15:06 sapier e.g you dig a node, you don't get an update because it's successfull
15:07 sapier right after it another client places that node
15:07 Zefram_Fysh oh indeed, this system is not specific about why the node was removed
15:07 sapier if you just ignore it it's lost
15:08 sapier you should just let addnode and removenode do what they do I'm not sure if they're compatibility anyway
15:08 Zefram_Fysh I don't think it's lost: ignoring it implies that this client did a dig attempt, which the server will shortly process and won't it send an update after that?
15:10 sapier the add node could be triggered by another client
15:11 sapier yes if your dig is successfull you wont get a immediate reply
15:12 Zefram_Fysh I'll look into that
15:12 sapier why do you increment action sequence for things not beeing actions at all?
15:13 sapier don't try to create another packet sequence number
15:15 sapier don't drop actions if your buffer is full but do a clean disconnect ... it's not supposed to happen so you do error hiding if you drop them
15:16 sapier last_action_seq why last and not next or n-a ... just call it action_seq
15:16 Zefram_Fysh I'm liberal about which kinds of action get counted because it would be painful to change it later if we later have predictions that need to be tied to a different type of action.  I already spotted another kind of prediction to which I'd like to apply the same logic, using the same action sequence number: the client can declare damage, and this damage can be temporarily not shown if there's a race with an HP update from the server
15:17 sapier client->last_action_seq = 0; that's crap a class always is supposed to initialize it's members on it's own
15:17 Zefram_Fysh the set of packet types that gets counted is not at all arbitrary.  it's all the in-game actions (whether directly on nodes or not) that is sent reliably
15:18 Zefram_Fysh last_action_seq does get initialised in the constructor, but in case of packet sequences that don't yet occur I decided that INIT2 definitively resets the sequence number
15:19 Zefram_Fysh the buffer does get `full' in normal use, because entries don't get expired.  this is not a way to detect loss of communication
15:19 sapier I don't like this specific feature to be spread that far that increases risk someone forgets it drastically
15:20 sapier getClient(peer_id)->last_action_seq is quite dangerous as you can't be sure there's not 0 returned
15:20 Zefram_Fysh "last" action_seq on the basis that each action has one sequence number and the server is only tracking the number of the last action it saw
15:22 Zefram_Fysh other parts of the code are relying on getClient returning a non-null pointer.  are you concerned about the min_state thing?  that would be a reason to revise those
15:23 sapier other parts in same function or at locations where existance is guaranteed by other things?
15:23 Zefram_Fysh I don't understand your comment "I don't like this specific feature to be spread that far that increases risk someone forgets it drastically".  what spread where?  what risk?
15:24 Zefram_Fysh same function, but it's a monster
15:24 sapier if you increment the number on server but forget on client once you're done
15:24 sapier having 100 location where counting up and down is almost a sure to forget one by some time
15:25 sapier and the only way you'd notice this is filling up your ringbuffer ... you're gonna get mad on looking for that error
15:25 Zefram_Fysh staying synched is critical, but turns out to be dead simple.  but I see the maintainability concern.  maybe centralise it with a bitmask on command codes?
15:26 sapier no it's not dead simple if it's not two locations 1 counting up 1 counting down ... any other variant is far from simple
15:26 sapier imho you shouldn't count up on client at all you don't need a client side counter
15:26 Zefram_Fysh the failure mode would not be filling the buffer, as it's normally full.  I think the failure mode would be the original glitch returning, or predictions persisting too long, depending on which side is counting more
15:27 sapier effect is same you don't actually see the error for quite some timne
15:28 Zefram_Fysh both sides need to be aware of the sequence numbers for the packets the client sends.  that's their purpose.  so both sides need to count, if the sequence numbers are implicit.  the more robust option is for the client to generate and *send* sequence numbers; would you prefer that?
15:28 sapier if there's a way to avoid doing things "in sync" then do it this way ... having to do things symmetric usually fails
15:28 sapier either client or server is supposed to count not both
15:29 sapier the one not counting should just mirror the last number known to him
15:29 Zefram_Fysh if only one side counts then it has to send the numbers explicitly.  and in this case it has to be the client
15:30 sapier you already do send the numbers
15:31 Zefram_Fysh the numbers are currently only sent for the server to refer back to earlier actions.  I'm referring here to establishing the numbers referring to actions in the first place
15:31 sapier btw counting up for commands sent with different prioritys will mess up your numbers
15:32 sapier mirror them ... better send 2 bytes then adding a synchronisation nightmare
15:32 Zefram_Fysh ah, interesting.  does the client send with multiple priorities?  I thought only the server did that
15:32 Zefram_Fysh the client does send a couple of things unreliably, but those don't get sequence numbers in this scheme
15:33 sapier even if it's not the case right now there's not a guarantee that may not change in future
15:33 sapier it's quite inconsistent to assume a client may never use all features the protocol provides
15:34 Zefram_Fysh hmm.  actions getting reordered sounds like it would screw up gameplay.  I think we can't possibly change that for the kind of action that's relevant here
15:34 sapier no it wont as chat messages for example may not be as important as dig commands
15:35 sapier just to name one reason why some actions could be more important then others
15:35 Zefram_Fysh chat commands can have semantic effects; ordering relative to digging could matter
15:35 sapier no
15:35 sapier chat is chat and is not supposed to change the map
15:36 Zefram_Fysh what's the command facility then?  it seems to be mixed up with chat
15:36 sapier true but that too could change in future ... don't rely on things just because it's comfortable for your current task
15:37 Zefram_Fysh anyway, if the client sends sequence numbers explicitly, it only needs to do that for packets on which it bases predictions, and it only needs to ensure sequencing of those packets.  so not really a problem
15:37 sapier protocol provides 3 channels with different prioritys you have to deal with this
15:37 sapier I didn't say it's a big problem, it's just to be considered
15:38 Zefram_Fysh so, sure, I can reformulate it with explicit sequence numbers
15:38 Zefram_Fysh I take it you think revising this is worthwhile
15:39 sapier next thing you shouldn't fill up your prediction queue on being connected to an old server at all
15:39 Zefram_Fysh hmm?
15:39 sapier if you are connected to an old server you don't get any sequence numbers back thus you just fill your queue with unpredictable result
15:40 Zefram_Fysh by "old server" you mean a server that's not responding?
15:40 sapier most simple example once your client connects to current stable server
15:41 Zefram_Fysh oh, that.  in that case the buffer is written as usual, but never examined.  as there's no dynamic memory allocation, it's a non-issue
15:42 Zefram_Fysh the prediction preservation isn't applied if the server doesn't return sequence numbers
15:43 Zeno` there are some very funny things in the MT source code :)
15:43 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/mine​test/blob/master/src/debug.h#L77
15:43 sapier well for what I see there's no limitation in evaluation of TOCLIENT_BLOCKDATA
15:43 Zeno` the "culprit" is not leveldb, it's MT using assert incorrectly
15:44 sapier even if it was there's no reason to fill a useless buffer still doing a lot of memory operations even if it's not a allocation/deallocation you could trigger pagefaults
15:44 Zeno` I guess it keeps me amused at least
15:44 Zefram_Fysh the replaying in blockdata doesn't happen if the server didn't give a sequence number.  the readU16(istr) generates a SerializationError.  the control flow isn't brilliantly obvious there; I guess it could use a comment
15:45 sapier great so you trigger a try/catch on each update ...
15:45 Zefram_Fysh heh.  I first wrote it with a non-exception way of detecting the sequence number, but rewrote it to match similar logic elsewhere
15:46 sapier try catch is for errors not for regular operation ... I know it's used that way in minetest sometimes but we try to get rid about it
15:46 Zefram_Fysh the original was "if(istr.peek() != EOF) { ... }"
15:46 sapier why not something like "if protocol version > x"
15:47 Zefram_Fysh try/catch is used in other places to detect missing optional fields in packets, which is what this is.  happy to change to explicit logic
15:47 Zefram_Fysh ah, that's a funny one.  the client doesn't actually know which protocol version is being used
15:47 sapier others doing wrong is not an excuse for doing wron too ... especially as you have a packet sent in high frequency here
15:48 Zefram_Fysh I wanted to make some of the client logic conditional on protocol version, but it's just not specified in any of the init packets.  only the server knows
15:48 sapier then make client detect absence of sequence number once and store it
15:49 sapier and find a way to do a pull request ;-) others might find different issues on this too ;-)
15:49 Zefram_Fysh can do that.  or we could have a protocol revision that has the server tell the client explicitly, and make the whole thing conditional on that version
15:50 sapier actually telling client about the chosen protocol version is even better ... do it that way
15:50 Zefram_Fysh creating a pull request seems to strongly depend on having a github account, and I'm not agreeing to their terms.  sometimes a friendly soul has created a pull request for my code; I have no control over it
15:51 sapier then find a way to do it as I won't merge a change like that without a review
15:52 sapier sorry Zefram_Fysh if you want to contribute to minetest you have to use the tools we use ... we do only have ONE single requirement
15:52 sapier I can merge small fixes without a pull but not something spread throughout minetest
15:53 Zefram_Fysh it would be unfortunate if your single requirement were to accept an evil contract.  rather than being, say, to produce quality code
15:53 sapier btw what exact part of their terms don't you like?
15:55 Zefram_Fysh the main sticking point is that they say changes to terms become effective immediately when posted on their site, regardless of whether you've actually read or had any opportunity to read them.  ostensibly you can't ever use github without accepting some unknown set of terms, whatever they've posted since the last time you looked
15:55 sapier it's your personal opinion to consider it to be a evil contract ... I respect this but respect that others don't feel that way too ... I'm quite special to those terms too but sometimes you have to decide either be part of something or not ... to be a full member of minetest community you need to have a github account ... or at least have access to one somehow
15:55 Zefram_Fysh gitorious, for example, avoids this problem by saying that new terms are effective after a month.  so as long as you read the terms more than once a month, you can't be surprised by new terms
15:56 sapier well did you ever check if those terms would even get into effect at all? e.g. in germany those parts of the terms would be just irrelevant
15:57 Zefram_Fysh there is some unfair-contract-terms law in my jurisdiction, but github also has a choice-of-venue clause, and it would become an awful mess if it ever got to court.  a US court couldn't unilaterally jail me, but it might manage to seize my assets
15:58 Zefram_Fysh I do sometimes sign unfair contracts on the basis that I'm confident of striking down the bad terms if it ever gets to court.  this case isn't sufficiently straightforward for that
15:58 Calinou it's not really signing as in signing a real contract
15:59 Calinou you're not even reading them most of the time ;)
15:59 Calinou they won't treat it is a real contract, same applies to a court
15:59 sapier still all minetest code is lgpl thus all you provide is open for anyone to (ab)use anyway
15:59 Calinou GitHub is a random startup, remember
15:59 Calinou if they start suing random innocent people, they'll end up poorly
16:00 Zefram_Fysh my concern isn't about what happens to the code I contribute to minetest, it's about what else github might try to claim from me, which if they can change the terms arbitrarily could be nearly anything
16:00 Calinou you do believe they'll seize stuff due to contributing to a free software project?
16:00 sapier still as you obviously want to contribute more things and you do have good ideas you have to choose. Noone here will be your github secretary
16:00 Calinou you can try contracting GitHub themselves to ask
16:01 Zefram_Fysh I don't know what they'd try.  but my impression of it is guided by the fact that they hired lawyers to write evil terms that let them try anything
16:01 sapier And to be honest I don't blame anyone for not wanting to just copy your changes to github as that's addtitional work without any benefit
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16:02 Zefram_Fysh I'm not joining github.  if that means I'm not a full memeber of the minetest community, so be it.  *you* have a choice about whether to accept my patches
16:03 sapier there's nothing "evil" ppl just do what gives them most profit ... same thing is for github, as long as they benefit from open source they will support it once they don't they'll drop services ... quite simple
16:03 Calinou remember that they benefit hugely from software hosted on *their* servers too
16:03 Calinou they don't have gripes against the free software community
16:03 Calinou not even the GPL-wielding people
16:04 Zefram_Fysh indeed, they're motivated only by profit, so what will happen when they see a buck to be made from changing terms to, say, claim the copyright of everything written by all their users?
16:04 sapier Zefram_Fysh: you can find another way to review your patches without forcing others to join other services
16:05 Zefram_Fysh I'm not asking anyone to join any service.  I used gitorious as an example of non-evil terms, that's all
16:05 sapier where's the issue Zefram_Fysh minetest is released lgpl
16:05 sapier they can't revoke the license for old versions
16:05 sapier "old" beeing anything published
16:06 Calinou they can't claim copyright
16:06 sapier and once they'll try to change it for new things we commit we'll just not use their services any longer
16:06 Calinou it doesn't work like that
16:06 Calinou they can only ask for a license grant, and even then, such a term change may be deemed unfair and thus void by a court.
16:07 sapier well they could write "any upload is transfering copyright to github" ... yet that wouldn't affect anything downloaded before using lgpl license
16:07 Zefram_Fysh I'm not concerned about losing access to the code.  I'm concerned about github using nasty terms to make life difficult in other respects.  something that "may be deemed unfair" could involve a protracted court battle in a foreign jurisdiction
16:08 sapier how should they do this ? if they did we just wouldn't use their services any longer ... right now "not using github" does make life more difficult then using it ;-)
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16:08 Calinou they won't move you to another country to sue you – it doesn't work like that either in practice
16:08 Calinou a term change can't make any of your actions illegal
16:08 Calinou to most constitutions, the changes aren't retroactive
16:09 sapier still I can't force anyone to do it, but I wont review patches the way I did today on regular base
16:10 Zefram_Fysh they do claim US jurisdiction, and while I can't be forced to show up in a US court, failing to do so could result in the court ruling against me in whatever way github wants, and the court could potentially seize assets, due to the interconnectedness of the global financial systems
16:10 sapier it's ok to do it every now and then ... while still beeing painfull
16:10 Calinou they don't seize stuff due to how you use a Web service
16:11 Calinou all they've did for now is DMCA stuff
16:12 sapier for what I know if thy want to sue you they have to do this on your home
16:12 Zefram_Fysh they can write ANYTHING into new terms.  them going bad isn't limited to them getting a grudge about how I use the service
16:12 sapier only if you want to sue them you have to do it in us
16:13 sapier sorry Zefram_Fysh but to me it seems you've run into something
16:14 Zefram_Fysh "run into something"?
16:14 Calinou like mauvebic would call it, a circlejerk
16:14 Zefram_Fysh ?
16:15 sapier don't know how to tell it correct in english, something like not really getting aware of proportions
16:15 Zefram_Fysh you're suggesting that I'm parroting the ideas of some paranoid fool I found on the internet?  I'm the paranoid one.  unlike most people, I read contracts before signing them
16:16 Calinou clicking “I agree“ meaning you're physically signing a piece of paper is dubious
16:16 sapier the only thing you may risk there is your work on minetest no more no less
16:16 sapier there won't be a us drone dropping bobs on your home
16:16 Zefram_Fysh Calinou: physical signing is less relevant than you think to contract law
16:17 sapier .... well you didn't have a way to prevent that anyway even without signing any contract ;-)
16:17 Zefram_Fysh if you choose to decline my patches merely because I don't present them on github, that's your right.  it'd be a sucky outcome, but that's up to you
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16:20 Calinou does the patch really help? (about block prediction)
16:20 Calinou proper servers don't ever have huge lag
16:20 Calinou if server lags for more than 1-2 seconds often, then it sucks
16:20 VanessaE Calinou: proper servers can have huge lag too
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16:21 VanessaE even my Free-For-All and Vanilla do lately because of some bug in minetest_game
16:21 Calinou ah, which kind of bug?
16:21 Calinou due to ABMs?
16:21 VanessaE beats me.
16:21 VanessaE I haven't had time to investigate.
16:21 VanessaE might just be network-related, might be in the engine, I don't know what
16:22 VanessaE might be a mod, who the hell knows :P
16:24 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: for G*d sakes, just sign up on Github.  They can't and won't do anything to fuck with you.
16:24 VanessaE There is literally nothing they can do.
16:24 VanessaE especially if you're not even IN the US in the first place.
16:24 Zefram_Fysh I've only tested the patch on localhost, where the prediction-loss glitches were only brief, but it does remove them, producing an appreciably better result even in the low lag case.  I made the patch because I've been seeing multi-second lag routinely with one of Vanessa's servers; I wouldn't say the server sucks
16:25 Zefram_Fysh me signing up to github with its present terms is out of the question
16:26 VanessaE *sigh*
16:28 VanessaE sign up anonymously then
16:28 Calinou I've asked him, he refuses
16:28 Calinou even using totally different username and such
16:28 VanessaE it's not like they even have to know who you are.
16:28 Zefram_Fysh that's not the issue.  anonymity wouldn't help
16:28 VanessaE they CAN'T take you to court if they don't know who you are
16:29 VanessaE their terms are completely unenforceable outside of US jurisdiction against an anonymous target for contributions that are themselves licensed in such a way that the license directly supersedes their contract.
16:29 Zefram_Fysh not that I'd have any effective anonymity once I was posting code on the account.  it'd be very easy to link it back to open aspects of my identity
16:29 VanessaE they CANNOT do what you claim they can do.
16:30 Zefram_Fysh I'm not claiming that they can cancel the GPL licensing of code already published.  I'm claiming they can write arbitrary contract terms and make an at least partly viable legal case that their users are bound by them
16:30 VanessaE no, they cannot.
16:31 VanessaE not under US laws they can't.
16:32 VanessaE if that were true, then the GPL/LGPL could just as easily be changed with similar language.
16:32 Zefram_Fysh again with the GPL cancellation.  red herring!
16:32 VanessaE only a comparison, not a cancellation.
16:33 Zefram_Fysh let me paint a more concrete and somewhat plausible scenario...
16:34 VanessaE under US laws, they cannot put terms into a contract that are, themselves, in direct contradiction to other laws or which would be generally considered unacceptable to the general public.
16:34 sapier the patch is a improvement for sure but at least the last variant is way to invasive compared to the benefit (my personal opinion) ... that's why we need a review
16:35 Zefram_Fysh they could add a new term saying "user indemnifies github against all costs incurred in defending against any accusation of plagiarism or defamation arising in respect of content posted by user".  I've actually had a term very similar to that proposed to me in a book publishing contract, which I turned down for this reason: it makes the user ostensibly responsible for unbounded costs arising from no actual fault of the user
16:36 VanessaE false.  they can't use a clause like that.
16:36 VanessaE because no court would uphold such a clause - it would thrown out on its face as unconscionable.
16:37 Zefram_Fysh this sort of term is near enough halfway reasonable, and might actually be upheld when used in a case when the user really was at fault.  then someone sues them over me, they wheel out the expensive lawyers, and send me a bill.  has to be fought
16:37 VanessaE in the US, each party pays its own way, that's written into our law - you want the other party to pay for your costs, you have to explicitly SUE for those costs.
16:37 VanessaE no sir.  violation of US law.
16:37 VanessaE try again.
16:37 Zefram_Fysh would it be taken as unconscionable?  there's certainly an argument to be made that way in the defence, but I don't think it's a pushover
16:38 VanessaE that's why so many court cases include "court costs" as one of the things being sued for
16:39 sapier Zefram_Fysh: if barack obama decides to declare you are a terrorist you can't even use us courts to defend yourself ... no matter in what country you live your life will be at risk
16:39 Zefram_Fysh indemnities are generally valid kinds of contract terms
16:39 VanessaE not here they aren't.  Not when money is involved.
16:39 VanessaE companies like to pretend they are
16:40 VanessaE but those clauses rarely, if ever, actually work
16:40 sapier as of american governmental pov anyone not beeing us citizen or beeing not within us borders is human second class at best
16:41 Zefram_Fysh acts of state are a different risk.  my favourite existential risk we can't do anything about is that anyone could be killed without warning by a meteorite strike.  not a reason to avoid reducing the risks we can control
16:42 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: you have a bigger risk of dieing in a car accident than anything from github being a problem, jeez
16:42 sapier wasn't major part of us forces in iraq private armed forces ... I'd not be surprised if their secret op forces would be private too
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16:45 VanessaE sapier: not as far as I am aware.  regular US army, air force, and marines troops afaik.
16:46 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: how much risk do you accept in your life?
16:46 sapier wastn't here some company called "blackwater" providing most of armed forces in iraq
16:47 sapier now they're called Academi ... if they didn't change their name again :)
16:47 VanessaE sapier: that was probably for the weapons/machines rather than the troops
16:47 * VanessaE looks it up
16:47 sapier they did escort ppl and transports for us military forces and even did support military operations direct ... imho genuine tasks of a occupation force
16:48 sapier nothing else was us invasion of iraq
16:48 VanessaE hm, looks to be mostly a training military force?
16:48 sapier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi doesn't sound like training only
16:49 VanessaE I'm reading that.
16:49 Zefram_Fysh I accept risks of types that I am comfortable managing
16:49 VanessaE hm.  didn't know.
16:49 sapier and security services
16:49 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: please.  for the greater good, just sign up.
16:49 Zefram_Fysh I can accept quite a lot of risk if it's of the right type
16:49 sapier VanessaE: stop it ... he doesn't want to sign up to github we have to accept it
16:50 Zefram_Fysh accepting a contract that can change out of my control is not a type of risk that I'm willing to accept
16:50 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: then I guess you don't drive either?
16:50 sapier but Zefram_Fysh don't be mad on anyone just because of not wanting to do extra work for your personal feelings
16:50 VanessaE sapier: no, I won't let this go.
16:50 VanessaE it's too important.
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16:51 Zefram_Fysh I do drive in the broad sense; have a driving licence and occasionally use it.  in practice it's been years since I last actually drove
16:51 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: or ride a bike, or the bus, whatever.
16:51 sapier actually most ppl die at home so beeing at home is a quite big risk of dieing
16:51 Zefram_Fysh I do step out of my front door, and accept some risk of being in a traffic accident
16:51 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: your country's laws are subject to change without notice, and you're compelled to accept them.  A contract you can't opt out of.
16:52 Zefram_Fysh I'm not happy that national law changes without informing me, but it's something I can't do anything about.  if the govt decides it wants to screw me over, I'm helpless
16:52 VanessaE tomorrow, someone could sign into law that every person of (insert your age, physical characteristics, gender, etc) must now go into military service for two years.  Do you fight it as unenforceable  or leave?
16:53 Calinou 80 % of people die in bed or so!
16:53 Calinou conclusion, don't go sleep
16:53 Zefram_Fysh github is not a government.  I *do* get to control how easy it is for github to screw me over
16:53 VanessaE "to screw me over"
16:53 VanessaE there is your fail
16:53 VanessaE you presume they intend to screw you over.
16:53 Calinou if they screw you over, they lose many customers, not just you
16:53 VanessaE why?
16:54 Calinou (see what happened with Qualcomm DMCA: they're losing trust from people, which is very important)
16:54 Zefram_Fysh that's shorthand for all that could happen.  I don't think it likely that they would develop a hatred of me personally
16:54 VanessaE you're still, with that shorthand, presuming they intend to do you wrong right out of the gate
16:54 sapier Zefram_Fysh: whole life is a matter of evaluating risks ... is there a risk on github ... most likely yes ... is the chance this risk to come active ... most likely not
16:55 sapier and most likely not doesn't mean something like 1/10 but more 1/1000000000000000000
16:55 Zefram_Fysh I think the evil terms show that they do have a general intent to do what's profitable even if it involves screwing over users.  they got a lawyer to write the terms that way
16:56 VanessaE again with the presumptive language.  "evil" terms?
16:56 VanessaE they HAD to get a lawyer to write them
16:56 VanessaE it's a requirement to run a business in the US.
16:56 VanessaE no lawyer = they don't cover their asses, THEY get sued by someone bigger than the,
16:56 VanessaE them*
16:56 Zefram_Fysh I consider it evil to intentionally bind someone to terms they haven't had a chance to evaluate
16:57 sapier I've never heared of a legit service successfully turning into a evil one and actually succeeding in getting money ... if github would try you'd not be the only one affected ... .thus you had a lot of co-fighters
16:57 VanessaE that clause is probably there from some boilerplate the lawyer drew up as a generic document
16:57 Zefram_Fysh they could have hired a lawyer to write non-evil terms.  the issue isn't that a lawyer is involved, it's what kind of contract they sought
16:57 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
16:57 sapier when did you use google last time?
16:58 VanessaE ok Zefram_Fysh you fail already
16:58 VanessaE their terms have already been changed
16:58 VanessaE "If GitHub makes material changes to these Terms, we will notify you by email or by posting a notice on our site before the changes are effective"
16:58 VanessaE https://help.github.com/arti​cles/github-terms-of-service
16:58 Zefram_Fysh co-fighters would be a great plus for many people, but doesn't work so well for me.  I need to be self-reliant
16:59 sapier self reliant? sorry but you should get rid of your illusions
16:59 sapier none of us is
16:59 Zefram_Fysh that's not changed terms, that's exactly the term I object to.  what they call "notice" isn't real notice: it's just publishing the terms on their website
16:59 VanessaE um
16:59 VanessaE it says "by email"
16:59 VanessaE most likely they'll do both
16:59 Zefram_Fysh "or"
16:59 VanessaE like any other site does
17:00 sapier still Zefram_Fysh when did you use google last time
17:00 Zefram_Fysh the minimum it guarantees is notice on their site
17:01 Zefram_Fysh I use google search daily.  I know they post some terms, but I'm happy about unreasonable terms being unenforceable where I don't have an account
17:01 sapier they are
17:01 VanessaE Google's terms are applicable whether you have an account or not.
17:01 Zefram_Fysh for that matter, I read stuff hosted at github.  same issue
17:01 sapier you press the search button thus you agree to their terms of service, they do have your ip adress thus they can identify you
17:02 sapier agreement + identification --> sueable
17:03 Zefram_Fysh cases about general web use have gone in the sensible direction.  consider the cases about sites trying to forbid deep linking
17:03 sapier yes but imho you're way beyond target ... and I'm accused to be beyond target myself too
17:04 Zefram_Fysh creating an account and explicitly operating an "I agree" button are major steps beyond mere web browsing.  those are the points at which I pay attention to posted terms
17:04 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: not to Google et al.
17:04 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: they have money and lawyers. your argument is invalid
17:04 sapier so on one hand you want to prevent any risk but on the other hand  you do accept the google risk? sorry but that's not consistent
17:05 Zefram_Fysh I did not say I want to prevent "any risk".  quite the reverse.  I'm just picky about which risks I take
17:05 VanessaE you're being too picky and making it hard for the rest of us to review and accept patches
17:05 VanessaE there's a reason I prefer your patches to come as pastes rather than your repo.
17:05 sapier well google with all it's information and data is most likely way more powerfull then github ;-)
17:06 Zefram_Fysh what is that reason?
17:06 VanessaE I can look at them far easier that way before merging.  but through github is easier yet, and I get automated reminders of the pull requests as well as the embedded discussion.
17:07 VanessaE pastes or your repo + IRC is much easier to lose track of, especially when I won't be leaving my PC on all the time anymore
17:07 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1457 pushing this in a few minutes
17:07 VanessaE see?  click --> website --> get all the details.
17:08 VanessaE except..it's android and database management so I'll back out of it.  sapier, you sure you wanna fuck with that stuff? ;)
17:09 sapier that one is required to get a mips build
17:09 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: but, in three clicks I had the pull and its commits open and viewing.
17:09 sapier leveldb doesn't work there
17:10 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: had I had to do that from the command line, it would take far longer and in a more "restricted" fashion.
17:10 VanessaE sapier: ok.  so long as it works I guess.
17:10 Zefram_Fysh much of that is just different UI preferences.  I find the command line much more expressive and usable than a website
17:10 sapier does only change things on android and there it works
17:11 sapier I don't like this way of doing it but I can't fix sqlite myself and even latest version is buggy
17:11 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: yes, it's a difference in UI but the point is it's 100000x more convenient to do it this way.
17:11 VanessaE expressiveness and subtlety are trounced by convenience in this case.
17:11 VanessaE s/subtlety/usability/
17:12 VanessaE plus:
17:12 sapier Zefram_Fysh: there's no command line ui providing discussion and code linked together
17:12 Zefram_Fysh the command line is also more convenient to me than websites
17:12 sapier how do you do discussions on your code on command line?
17:12 VanessaE if it's my repo the pull is against, I get an email telling me about the pull, with links to it and a few other things and even a quick copy&paste command to merge the pull to my local repo.
17:12 VanessaE how much more convenient can it possibly get than this?
17:13 Zefram_Fysh the linking of discussion and code is admittedly not covered by git.  I'm accustomed to a combination of git and mailing list to cover that
17:13 sapier Zefram_Fysh: a simple example if I wanna review a pull you did on command line I have to do following things:
17:14 sapier save my current wip
17:14 sapier add your repositiory as remote
17:14 sapier fetch it
17:14 sapier switch there
17:14 sapier open up a comparison gui
17:14 sapier review
17:14 sapier write my comments somewhere
17:14 sapier add line numbers and git hash to those comments
17:15 sapier switch back my wip branch
17:15 Zefram_Fysh you have some excess steps.  don't need to stash current work before pulling; don't need to switch your working dir to my branch in order to examine the diff
17:15 sapier on github:
17:15 sapier http...
17:15 sapier click line to comment
17:15 sapier write
17:15 sapier done
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17:16 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: don't take this the wrong way, but any way you look at it, your way of doing this is making it horribly inconvenient for the rest of us... all for the sake of paranoia
17:16 Zefram_Fysh if you only want to look at the diff, you don't even need to get it into git, you could just read the pastebin
17:16 sapier ok then how am I supposed to review a pull of yours?
17:17 sapier that's useless as I usually need the code around a diff to understand what's going on there
17:17 sapier I had to do this for your last paste to ... open up my ide find the file find the line ...
17:18 sapier I don't say it's not possible to do that ... I already did it ... it's just inconveniant
17:18 sapier -i+u
17:18 rubenwardy inconvenient
17:19 rubenwardy :P
17:19 sapier really? ok then I was right first
17:19 rubenwardy well, s/ant/ent. But yeah
17:19 VanessaE ruben "the spellchecker" wardy ;)
17:19 Zefram_Fysh well, noted that you find it inconvenient to review patches that don't come in through github.  as git itself makes the interoperability so easy, it sounds like a flaw in github that it makes the workflow difficult in that case
17:19 sapier Zefram_Fysh: you consider it a flaw of a tool to make things more easy?
17:20 sapier that#s crude
17:20 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: no, it's a flaw in your process in that it's NOT possible to do a full review of code that is submitted to a git repo that doesn't even have a web interface at all
17:20 Zefram_Fysh no, I consider it a flaw that it makes the other thing more difficult
17:20 sapier github is not involved in how I review your pastes so don't blame it
17:20 Zefram_Fysh pulling from a github-hosted git repo and from a git repo hosted elsewhere shouldn't be made to look so wildly different
17:21 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: it's not about pulling the code
17:21 sapier most likely you call it a flaw for a car to move you without having to walk on your own
17:21 VanessaE it's about discussing the code and reviewing it.
17:21 VanessaE you can't do that on a repo that has no web interface
17:21 Zefram_Fysh er, I'm totally confused about what toolset you're talking about then
17:21 sapier we're not talking about the actuall pull/pushing, we do that on commandline anyway without github
17:21 Zefram_Fysh I'm open to working with you to find a workflow that suits you better.  just not one that involves me having a github account
17:22 sapier it's the way to get a pull request into a state where it's ready to be merged
17:22 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: github combines the git repo, discussion, email alerts, and everything else in one system.  your repo does none of that, it's just bare git.
17:22 sapier don't mention the email alerts that's one of the most useless things :-)
17:22 VanessaE sapier: actually they're quite useful for my workflow :P
17:23 sapier well I'm spamed to a extent I don't even read them
17:23 VanessaE http://xkcd.com/1172/
17:23 Zefram_Fysh it is not a flaw that your toolchain makes some workflows easy.  it is a flaw that they don't make the almost-identical workflow nearly as easy
17:23 sapier Zefram_Fysh: if you have a good suggestions how to do the discussion and reviewing you should do it
17:23 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: it's a flaw in that you don't have a toolchain *at all*
17:24 VanessaE all you've got is a bare git repo.  IRC + pastes is *not* a toolchain.
17:25 rubenwardy Why doesn't he want a GitHub account?
17:25 VanessaE rubenwardy: "we reserve the right to change these terms at any time" with the only notice possibly being a mention on the website that the terms have been changed.
17:26 VanessaE he's afraid of nefarious terms being inserted that could land him in prison and leave him penniless.
17:26 Zefram_Fysh I've given suggestions about git usage, which I do know about.  as the problem evidently lies in other parts of your toolchain, with which I'm not familiar, it appears that I can't give useful suggestions there.  I can't tell you how to use your tools
17:26 rubenwardy The minetest.net forums say that they can change the T&C anytime - without notifying anyone.
17:26 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: there *are* no tools here.
17:26 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: we're not gonna start using mailing lists et al. for code discussion
17:27 Zefram_Fysh Vanessa: you exaggerate.  I explicitly said that I think jailing me is not on the cards
17:27 Zefram_Fysh rubenwardy: that's exactly why I don't have a forum account
17:27 sapier Zefram_Fysh: goddamn make a suggestion how to discuss your pull requests
17:27 rubenwardy So paranoid
17:27 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: ok, misread about jail, but penniless you DID say.
17:27 sapier discussing pastebins isn't an option
17:28 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: your paranoia is excessive.
17:28 VanessaE Zefram_Fysh: you refuse to even entertain any notion for reducing your paranoia itself.  This is illness.
17:28 sapier the minimal requirement is having a way to add comments to your code, not having to register for other services, and another good feature would be easy full code access for that one
17:28 rubenwardy I don't think GitHub would do that. It would rid them of customers. And it would not work.
17:28 Zefram_Fysh sapier: I evidently have too little clue about what would be convenient to you.  it looks as though the best process for you would involve my code somehow becoming a github pull request, which would have to be done by someone other than me
17:29 VanessaE now I'm beginning to get pissed off.
17:29 sapier at least install gitlist on your server
17:29 Zefram_Fysh gitlist?  looking...
17:29 Jordach joined #minetest-dev
17:30 sapier or gitweb
17:31 jp__ joined #minetest-dev
17:31 sapier or some other web frontend to your git repository so we don't have to download it to see it linked to code
17:31 VanessaE gitlist looks more useful than gitweb (having used the latter, it's....cumbersome)
17:31 Zefram_Fysh oh, a web repo viewer.  that's feasible.  I don't see the attraction myself, but I have no great objection to it existing
17:31 twoelk joined #minetest-dev
17:31 sapier gitlist is evolving quite fast maybe it's gonna get comment support soon
17:32 sapier right now it seems to mimicry github ... hope that's not an issue too
17:32 Zefram_Fysh I don't fancy hosting a writable web service (comment support).  though could do it if necessary
17:33 Zefram_Fysh I'll look at gitlist and gitweb.  if I find both OK, which would you prefer?
17:33 sapier well if you don't wanna join github it's up to you to provide equaly convenient ways to review your patches
17:34 sapier I'd prefere gitlist as it seems to be more advanced as of diff ... but that's a matter of taste
17:34 Zefram_Fysh well yes, it's all a matter of taste, your taste is why we're looking at me installing a git viewer at all
17:35 sapier it's you refusing to joing our established and basically working review process
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17:36 Zefram_Fysh usually review process is the purview of the regular developers, not of the patch submitter
17:36 sapier as you don't wanna do so you should at least provide a equally comfortable replacement
17:36 VanessaE brb
17:36 Calinou woah, gitlist.org looks very similar to GitHub
17:37 sapier well we don't get paid to to this ... so unless you wanna pay us you're supposed to make review process as conveniant as possible
17:37 sapier e.g. by joining the official and established process
17:37 sapier you could try to send a patchfile to linus torvalds too but I'm quite sure he wont even read it
17:38 sapier or send him a sms to your svn repository
17:39 Zefram_Fysh I don't think Linus's process involves joining a specific web service
17:39 sapier and by the way linus is even paid for doing this
17:39 sapier that doesn't matter the only thing relevant is you have to do it the way the linux kernel does
17:40 sapier if you refuse to do it that way you don't have any chance to get it in
17:40 twoelk oh come on, you where almost there. don't wander of again
17:40 sapier btw you do have to register for a web service to get something to linux kernel
17:41 Zefram_Fysh oh?  it's been many many years since I wrote any code for the kernel
17:41 sapier you wont have a chance to get something in without subscribing to lkml
17:41 Zefram_Fysh (there is a bit of my code in there.  from the days when development was managed by mailing list, as it happens)
17:42 sapier still you subscribe there thus you sign some sort of contract too
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17:42 Zefram_Fysh oh, right.  joining mailing lists isn't too onerous, in my experience
17:43 sapier well you can keep picking and reinterpreting your own arguments but I don't think that's gonna help in motivating us reviewing your patches in a less conveniant way then we usually do ...
17:43 Zefram_Fysh I don't remember terms atteched to lkml when I was on it.  I bet the terms are not evil
17:44 Zefram_Fysh well yes, we should work on making a process that works given our respective constraints
17:44 sapier (19:39:02) Zefram_Fysh: I don't think Linus's process involves joining a specific web service
17:44 sapier that's what you said an that is wrong ... noone did say anything about evil or not as that's highly subjective anyway
17:44 Zefram_Fysh I'm not counting a mailing list as a "web service"
17:44 sapier that's your pov
17:45 Zefram_Fysh you probably view it through web browsing, making it a web service to you, but I interact with mailing lists through mail.  yes, pov
17:46 sapier I already told you one way to increase chances for your patches to be merged, but that one only fixes the "see what you changed" issue
17:46 sapier the "can't comment the changes" is still there
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17:47 sapier we don't use a mailing list for discussion but github ... no matter how you wish it to be a mailing list at least I don't agree to be forced by a single person to use a mailing list too that'd be ridiculus ...
17:48 Zefram_Fysh I have not advocated for you to switch to a mailing list.  or anything else, for that matter
17:48 sapier if you didn't notice you're trying to force us to follow your strange opinion of what is good and bad
17:49 Zefram_Fysh I am not trying to force you to use the tools with which I am most comfortable.  I am trying to find a mutually-agreeable arrangement
17:49 sapier you don't even use tools
17:50 sapier and blame us for using tools to make some parts of review more easy
17:50 Zefram_Fysh is there that much of a generation gap?  I didn't think I was that old
17:50 Zefram_Fysh no, I have not objected to your tools making some things easy.  you have put those words in my mouth three times now
17:51 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
17:51 sapier then how do you expect us to use our tools for your commits? by always copying your work creating pull request for you ?
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17:52 Zefram_Fysh how you use your tools, with which I am not familiar, is best judged by you.  it does appear that some process involving my work eventually turning up as a github pull request would be much more satisfactory for you than any process that doesn't
17:53 sapier Zefram_Fysh "how you use your tools" sounds quite ignorant to me
17:53 Zefram_Fysh it is respectful of your personal space
17:53 Zefram_Fysh they're your tools, not mine
17:55 sapier no they're not my tools but minetest project tools
17:55 Zefram_Fysh ok, collective "you"
17:55 sapier it's like telling sorry but I don't like gcc I wanna compile using fortran compiler
17:55 sapier we won't merge fortran code no matter how much features it's gonna add
17:58 rubenwardy That is a code thing. PR & issues is a maintenance thing. Not completely different, but still different.
17:59 sapier but as I told multiple times it's your decision, I will continue to review your suggestions every now and then but I just can't merge controversial things this way and I won't create pull request for you once you do more then a few things a year
17:59 Zefram_Fysh as to how my code can become github pull requests, it may be as simple as a helpful github user making a habit of it.  after the mention much earlier of a "github secretary", someone on this channel did actually immediately offer to be my github secretary, rather kindly.  I demurred on philosophical grounds that I don't want github use per se, what I want is a satisfactory link to the MT project team.  so maybe the process involves me having a Min
17:59 sapier it's a lot of work to keep those pulls in sync to your work and that's work only there because of your personal decision
18:00 Zefram_Fysh I do appreciate the consideration that you have given my patches thus far
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18:00 sapier ok if you want to be your secretary on your own you'd use a github account someone else did create for you?
18:01 Zefram_Fysh no, that would amount to being my account.  likewise a shared account
18:01 sapier well then someone creates an account and shares it to you
18:02 Zefram_Fysh but maybe a further degree of isolation could be arranged
18:04 Zefram_Fysh if someone had a github account and arranged that, for example, emailing a git: URI to some mailbox would cause a pull from the specified repo that gets automatically put onto that github account, and advertised it as "email to Minetest-team gateway", I would find that sufficiently far from being me using github
18:04 sapier done
18:04 Zefram_Fysh please don't object specifically to the email aspect of that idea.  there are other ways to get equivalent effect, and remember it's not aimed at you anyway
18:04 sapier use that account on command line
18:05 Zefram_Fysh you have given me a username/password combination, presumably for a github account.  as I said, using a shared account doesn't seem sufficiently isolated
18:06 Zefram_Fysh but we do seem to be making progress towards a technical solution to the social problem
18:06 sapier sorry Zefram_Fysh that's most I can give you not it's up to you to take the chances we provided
18:06 sapier decide on your own
18:06 sapier -not+now
18:07 Zefram_Fysh I am not willing to directly use a github account
18:07 sapier then be it as I'm not willing to spend any more time in this useless discussion
18:07 sapier I already spent way more then anyone else in here
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19:42 * VanessaE looks at the discussion she missed (had someone over doing some work) and shakes head, frowns
19:45 kahrl sapier: re: moving includes from version.h to version.cpp
19:46 kahrl version.h is included for a variety of things: the --version option, displaying the version in the main menu, notifying the server list, user agent in httpfetch...
19:46 kahrl but I'm pretty sure the things that are #included in version.h are only used in version.cpp
19:47 kahrl (but since I can't test the android build I wanted to ask you)
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19:53 kahrl also sfan5: ping (since you were the last one to change this)
19:58 kahrl unrelated: I propose adding a count parameter to the /dummyball command
19:58 kahrl https://gist.github.com/kahrl/c2c7df94c17efec74f5c
19:59 kahrl makes it trivial to get 50 entities into one mapblock
19:59 sapier actually android client isn't supposed to use it for anything else so if you can move it there I guess I'll be able to fix potential issues for android too
20:00 kahrl although I guess anything > 2 should require some privileges
20:00 kahrl > 1*
20:00 kahrl sapier: ok, good to know, I'll push that change then
20:00 kahrl (in 15 minutes unless someone vetoes)
20:01 sapier yes and I'll fix android if it unexpectedly breaks something
20:25 kahrl I had to change more than I expected
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20:26 kahrl for example, there was some code in client.cpp that used CMAKE_VERSION_GITHASH directly
20:26 kahrl but still simple enough: https://gist.github.com/kahrl/b288cd6063da36aae2dc
20:26 kahrl giving another 30 minutes before I push
20:39 ShadowNinja kahrl: Why the minetest_version_* strings and not just the constants?
20:40 kahrl ShadowNinja: because with the #defined constants you have to recompile every file that uses them, every time they change
20:40 kahrl (e.g. when you change an unrelated file and that adds the -dirty suffix to the githash)
20:41 ShadowNinja kahrl: O.K.  I'd prefer if you removed the minetest_ prefix though.  And maybe you should do the same for major/minor/patch.
20:42 ShadowNinja Also, _extra needs to be cleaned up, it uses a PATCH_ORIG now because it mangles PATCH with EXTRA.
20:45 kahrl these are good ideas but out of scope of this commit :P
20:48 kahrl also I don't completely understand how the version constants are set in android so I might botch that by accident if I change a lot
20:50 kahrl so it might be better if someone like sapier or sfan does that
21:16 Jordach anyone understand why pressing enter in the multiplayer tab (password box) causes random segfaults
21:16 Jordach (or just access violations)
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22:51 Eater4 Jordach: the rail is going though the person O_o
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