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IRC log for #minetest-delta, 2012-08-12

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13:09 sapier is there something like a preprocessor  in LUA? I know there might be a JIT but I'm not sure minetest uses it?
13:10 VanessaE dunno; minetest doesn't use a JIT as far as I know though
13:10 VanessaE btw, nice work on the 3d mobs (haven't tried them myself yet)
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13:11 sapier thanks :-)
13:12 sapier I'm about to track down the lag issues some people reported related to animals mod ... not quite sure if they're still there as noone seems to can remember which version they tested :-(
13:13 sapier during my investigations I discovered some really bad things about lua :-(
13:13 VanessaE like?
13:15 sapier I've a lot of debug trace functions in animals to track down problems ... of course these shouldn't be enabled in release mode. I've used following mechanism to do that:
13:15 sapier debugtrace = print(text) --debug
13:15 sapier debugtrace = function() end --release
13:16 sapier BUT ... function () end doesn't seem a lightweight operation at all (not as heavy than print either)
13:16 VanessaE hm
13:16 sapier and even worse if you do something like
13:16 sapier debugtrace("traceinfo: " .. call_some_func() .. " END")
13:16 sapier lua does evaluate all parameters for the empty function too
13:17 sapier ok I know last think has to be done ... I didn't think about this when switching from
13:17 sapier #define DEBUGFCT(x)
13:17 sapier style :-/
13:19 Calinou hi sapier
13:19 VanessaE I've not used functions like those yet; I still code in an old style:  run everything through a function that checks a debug flag and executes print()  :-)
13:19 Calinou long time no see!
13:19 sapier hello :-) sorry have been busy at rl
13:19 Calinou lol @ #minetest-dev
13:19 thexyz lolmicrooptimizations
13:19 Calinou <celeron55> altough i should release 0.4.2 as stable before doing that... ehm... well, let's just hope there aren't bugs
13:19 Calinou that's what the debian unstable dev said
13:19 Calinou YEAH, UPDATE TO GREP. GONNA MERGE IT ITS AWESOME
13:21 sapier one function hmmm :-) nope not an option animalsmod is far to complex :-) I've even created a doxygen docu to keep trac of all its components and features
13:22 VanessaE Calinou: personally I wish he'd fix some of the worst bugs first before going to 0.4.2-release.
13:23 Calinou he fixed the duplication bug
13:23 Calinou and unknown nodes not being diggable
13:23 saschaheylik is he the only C++ coder here except for me?
13:23 VanessaE he did?
13:23 VanessaE since when?
13:24 saschaheylik any other "worst bugs" ?
13:24 VanessaE oop, there is it
13:24 VanessaE it is.
13:24 VanessaE saschaheylik: yeah, make chests/furnaces stop eating items.
13:24 Calinou ^ very annoying
13:24 Calinou anyone fixing this gets 99 steel blocks on redcrab's servers and a chest full of mese
13:25 Calinou lol
13:25 saschaheylik u got paypal?
13:25 VanessaE or how about the segfault when opening the F10 console (he blames irrlicht)
13:26 saschaheylik ill take a look at that first
13:26 saschaheylik works fine?
13:26 saschaheylik what are the exact steps to segfault?
13:27 VanessaE do it a few times, and only in multiplayer mode
13:27 saschaheylik 1. launch singleplayer
13:27 saschaheylik 2. press f10
13:27 saschaheylik oh
13:27 VanessaE 1. launch multiplayer
13:27 VanessaE 2. join any server
13:27 VanessaE 3. hit F10 a few times :-)
13:27 Calinou it only has a chance to happen the first time you press it
13:27 VanessaE 75% of the time, it'll crash the game outright
13:27 Calinou that segfault is much rarer on windows but can occur
13:27 Calinou (like 10%)
13:28 darkrose it also only happens if you don't have a debug build of irrlicht running in gdb
13:28 VanessaE ha!
13:28 VanessaE saschaheylik: those two are the ones that bug me the most; there are many others in the issues list
13:29 Calinou yeah... good luck fixing all of them :P
13:29 VanessaE heh
13:29 Calinou remember: bug fixing is the most boring task ever
13:29 VanessaE don't I know it.
13:29 Calinou I'd like to have my new textures included into minetest_game though
13:29 saschaheylik thats a lot of issues
13:29 Calinou finally steel ingots that actually shine :3
13:29 VanessaE Calinou: file them against minetest_game, after you ignore the message over there that specifically says NOT to because they'll be deleted :-)
13:30 Calinou I did file the issue to minetest_game, c55 told me to do so
13:30 VanessaE yep I saw
13:30 saschaheylik got a 4.2 server?
13:31 saschaheylik *0.4.2
13:31 VanessaE Calinou: https://github.com/celeron​55/minetest_game/issues/1
13:31 Calinou minetest.freedns.in port 30000
13:31 Calinou INFINITE BLOCKS
13:31 Calinou VanessaE, ik
13:34 saschaheylik keeps connecting to server
13:35 saschaheylik well i can just start one locally i guess
13:39 saschaheylik no segfault
13:39 VanessaE guess it only happens with a remote server then
13:39 saschaheylik hm
13:39 VanessaE try redcrab.suret.net:30401 with 0.4.1
13:40 saschaheylik i could seperately run the standalone server
13:40 saschaheylik trying an old version would miss the point
13:40 VanessaE I suppose; I don't use 0.4.2 at all because nothing works with it yet
13:40 VanessaE s/nothing/no servers I use/
13:41 saschaheylik 17:41:27: ERROR[ServerThread]: Server: peer_id=2: failed to emerge player
13:41 saschaheylik 17:41:39: ACTION[ServerThread]: sascha times out. List of players:
13:41 saschaheylik well thats great
13:42 VanessaE lots of people have ran into that bug
13:42 saschaheylik by.. starting the game?
13:42 VanessaE I have not seen a solution
13:43 sapier does anyone know when 4.2 shall be released?
13:44 VanessaE dunno
13:45 Calinou 2013-04-01
13:45 Calinou 2012-12-21 is a good estimate too
13:45 VanessaE ha!
13:46 VanessaE if my mom were still alive, she'd answer "Juvember 41st".
13:46 VanessaE :-)
13:46 saschaheylik our main bigtracker is github issues on https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/ right?
13:46 saschaheylik *bugtracker
13:46 VanessaE saschaheylik: yep
13:46 saschaheylik k
13:48 sapier I was frightened it'll be released soon ;-)
13:49 * Calinou seen this mod: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1298016-​131125-better-blocks-items-fancy-fences-and-​more-vanilla-with-sprinkles-last-updated-89/
13:49 VanessaE I hope not.  there are still too many issues that really should be worked on
13:49 Calinou "fancy fences"
13:49 Calinou gotta sue the devs for software patent: wall slabs and panels from stairsplus
13:49 Calinou lol
13:50 VanessaE nodeboxes! :-)
13:50 Calinou no smooth lighting support :(
13:50 VanessaE needed.  badly.
13:50 VanessaE nodeboxes can look ugly if the texture on them isn't noisy enough
13:52 sapier I'd prefere the entity client<->server sync bugs fixed if someone think's he/she's capable of doing that :)
13:53 Calinou she
13:53 Calinou SHE
13:53 Calinou c55 isn't a girl, sorry, try again
13:53 saschaheylik oh 127.0.0.1 works, localhost doesn't
13:53 VanessaE Calinou: I think sapier means any coder, not just c55 :-)
13:53 sapier I know but it's not only c55 that can fix bugs ;-)
13:53 saschaheylik im not a girl either
13:53 VanessaE such as darkrose, who IS a she. :-)
13:54 saschaheylik but CANT fix bugs
13:54 saschaheylik afaik
13:54 Calinou localhost can be borked on some computers
13:54 Calinou lol, saschaheylik, I read like this: " who IS a she. :-) but CANT fix bugs"
13:55 saschaheylik so?
13:55 saschaheylik how else would you read it
13:55 Calinou saschaheylik gold medal "getting jokes"
14:01 VanessaE saschaheylik: actually darkrose can fix bug but she can't push to git master
14:02 saschaheylik but she could upload the code anywhere else and post a link here?
14:03 saschaheylik i just jumped off a 300 block tower.
14:03 saschaheylik proves minetest is superior to minecraft
14:03 sapier so you like rats with long tails or short? ;-)
14:04 saschaheylik those are relative terms
14:04 VanessaE just use the default rats texture so I don't have to redo them :-)
14:05 VanessaE (I haven't added support to my tex pack for the Animals mod because I don't think I can find good enough imagery)
14:05 sapier I'm creating a 3d model so the textures ain't really usefull anymore
14:05 sapier textures for 3d models look really really strange :-)
14:07 VanessaE I know :-)
14:07 VanessaE I've done plenty of them for nodebox-based stuff
14:07 sapier btw long -> more than body length short -> less than half body length ;)
14:08 VanessaE I guess it depends.  can the tail move? :-)
14:08 sapier no it's just a  "stick"
14:08 VanessaE I meant to ask before, do these abuses-of-wielded-objects animate at all? :-)
14:09 sapier animation of wielded items? that is possible?
14:09 VanessaE dunno
14:09 VanessaE I suppose not
14:09 VanessaE hell I'm still not entirely clear on how you did it :-)
14:09 saschaheylik you could make 3d objects in advance for when i add the ability to use them "properly"
14:10 sapier how I did what?
14:10 VanessaE saschaheylik: that's one thing c55 is dead-set against, proper 3D mobs, unless such an engine is incredibly clean, fast, and flexible.
14:10 sapier for propper usage there's only missing a rename and collision boxes that rotate according to its yaw :-)
14:11 VanessaE sapier: how you were able to turn these things into actual in-world objects
14:11 saschaheylik VanessaE: because they are so hard on hardware in 2012?
14:11 sapier that's been pilzadams idea he just created entities with drawtype wiedlitem
14:11 saschaheylik VanessaE: rather because of the trouble of adding them properly
14:12 VanessaE saschaheylik: no, because he doesn't want hard-coded stuff and because he doesn't want it to look like boxy minecraft mobs
14:12 sapier we already have a "boxy" minecraft world ;-)
14:12 saschaheylik no way 2d mobs are better than "boxy" mobs
14:13 saschaheylik anyways, useless discussion
14:13 saschaheylik issue filed
14:13 sapier I'm thinking about making it a setting if you wanna use 2d or 3d mobs what do you think about?
14:13 saschaheylik if we had 3d support who would make 2d animals
14:13 sapier those with slow hardware ;-)
14:14 saschaheylik oh come on
14:14 sapier :-) the only difference between 2d and 3d animals is it's model ... not much to do to make a 2d mob
14:15 saschaheylik depends on your conception of 2d mob
14:15 saschaheylik ultra low resolution pixelmobs, yes
14:15 sapier ok this is only true as long as you don't consider animation
14:16 saschaheylik maybe those with slow hardware can turn off animations
14:16 sapier true
14:16 saschaheylik that was a joke
14:17 saschaheylik and technically, no games exist without animations
14:17 saschaheylik meaning: moving parts
14:17 sapier I know :-) but It's an obvious point that ppl switching to 2d because of performance won't enable animation to loose it again
14:18 saschaheylik how much performance does it take to render a gif animation?
14:18 sapier ok I've meant in model animation when talking about "animation"
14:18 saschaheylik how much performance does that take?
14:19 saschaheylik in a minecraft world, pretty much anything is low to mid polycount
14:19 sapier depends on how many animations are on your screen at different 3d positions clipping etc that's not that simple as a 2d animation in plain 2d browser
14:19 saschaheylik i really dont see performance issues from 3d mobs happening
14:19 saschaheylik not in 2012
14:20 sapier I've had complains about animals mod introducing lag for some time ... some easy tasks can be implemented really bad :-)
14:20 saschaheylik maybe after when the earth is all fucked up and people have to re-invent computers
14:20 VanessaE saschaheylik: the sad part about the "in 2012" is that c55 wants to target low-end systems (to me, that means 10 or so years old) yet there's no way the game will run acceptibly on old hardware anymore
14:21 saschaheylik he wants to target primarily bad computers?
14:21 saschaheylik he should be targeting people
14:21 saschaheylik who dont liek shit computers
14:21 saschaheylik so they wont have problems with 3d mobs
14:21 VanessaE not "bad", just "old".
14:21 saschaheylik slow is bad
14:21 VanessaE low end as in 1-2 cores, integrated gfx, etc
14:21 saschaheylik old is slow
14:22 VanessaE which is why I have a high-end system and even IT suffers under minetest at times
14:22 sapier if you target integrated graphics intel it's as targeting 20year old machines ;-)
14:22 saschaheylik VanessaE: if you are worrying about simple animated 3d models it sounds more like youre living in a time of cpu-rendered graphics
14:23 VanessaE Phenom II X6 1055T, 4GB RAM, Radeon HD6870 gfx with 1GB, 60GB SSD.  And it can't always sustain even 60 fps either because the drivers suck or because minetest is slow :-)
14:23 saschaheylik the polygon count sure as hell is not the bottleneck
14:23 VanessaE (nevermind what happens when I hit it with my 512px textures.  it crawls then)
14:23 sapier minetests fps aren't primary limited by graphics :)
14:23 saschaheylik its rather memory or maybe cpu
14:24 saschaheylik VanessaE: go slow on the HD textures :P
14:24 VanessaE saschaheylik: no. :-)
14:24 VanessaE I bought a high-end card because I was tired of low-end gfx capability :-)
14:24 saschaheylik the main memory eater is the voxel data
14:25 VanessaE oh that reminds me,
14:25 saschaheylik and cpu probably too
14:25 sapier 4GB RAM ... that's not enough ;-) ... ok I haven't got more but as soon as I start eclipse firefox and minetest I'm hitting the memory barrier :-)
14:25 VanessaE here's one you can attempt if you want:
14:25 saschaheylik depends on how many voxels you are trying to cache
14:25 sapier plasma is eating lots of memory too :-/
14:25 saschaheylik im using default settings so
14:25 saschaheylik plasma?
14:25 sapier kde's desktop
14:26 saschaheylik oh right
14:26 saschaheylik out of context
14:26 VanessaE rip out, shread, destroy, and then really REALLY do away with that G*d damn extrude routine at startup that makes the game take forever to start, and either render everything flat or extrude on demand only those things the player actually has handy
14:26 sapier yeah i couldn't get that shit of unity working on 3 displays :-/
14:26 saschaheylik VanessaE: extrude what?
14:26 saschaheylik the tools?
14:27 saschaheylik of the player
14:27 VanessaE tools, items, etc.
14:27 VanessaE the more textures you have defined (by way of more mods), regardless of whether they should need to be extruded, the longer the game takes to startup
14:27 saschaheylik guess they'll be replaced with 3d models too
14:28 VanessaE in my case I have a few thousand nodes defined among all my mods, and the game takes well over one full minute to start
14:28 VanessaE they *are* 3d models
14:28 sapier does minetest use LOD for textures?
14:28 saschaheylik then what is being extruded
14:28 VanessaE he extrudes them into 3d space by doing pixel -> 3d cube over and over for each pixel in each texture file
14:28 saschaheylik 2d pictures could be extruded into 3d models
14:28 VanessaE or something like that anyway
14:28 saschaheylik a texture is not a 3d model
14:28 VanessaE I know.
14:29 VanessaE he converts it into one.
14:29 saschaheylik yes. would be a hell of a lot faster to simply load a simple 3d model instead
14:29 VanessaE why he doesn't just cache the extrusions to disk I have no idea,.
14:29 saschaheylik simplicity of drawing the tools
14:29 VanessaE (maybe it would take longer to load, who knows)
14:30 saschaheylik no, it's definitely because this way you can draw the tools quickly in paint or whatever
14:30 sapier are the tools realy a that huge impact on performace?
14:30 saschaheylik no but the 2d- 3d conversion
14:30 VanessaE saschaheylik: nnononono
14:30 VanessaE I mean he caches the images, why doesn't he cache the extruded image->model conversions also
14:30 saschaheylik or an insane obsession about disk space
14:31 VanessaE so that they don't have to be re-extruded every damn time the game starts
14:31 VanessaE disk space.  BAH
14:31 VanessaE disk space is cheap
14:31 saschaheylik hm yeah right the sewrver could just do it on startup and then serve the extruded one
14:31 VanessaE exactly.
14:31 saschaheylik guess he didnt add that
14:31 saschaheylik i think i'll do that real quick
14:32 VanessaE c55 sais he was thinking of just rendering everything flat (no extrusion).  I suggested only applying the extrusion to craftitems, tools, etc.  I think he applies it to *everything*
14:32 VanessaE (even cubes)
14:32 VanessaE says*
14:32 saschaheylik id suggest not messing with pictures as extrudable 3d model fiormat replacement anyways
14:33 VanessaE well being able to create those objects first as a simple image file has its advantages
14:33 saschaheylik that is what i named as the main reason
14:33 VanessaE just agreeing with you
14:34 saschaheylik good
14:34 VanessaE at any rate, people notice this stuff.
14:34 VanessaE if a game takes forever, garbles the window while it's apparently "hung", and then suddenly appears as if nothing was wrong, that does NOT reflect well on the author or the community
14:35 VanessaE (try that sometime:  load my 512px tex pack, then start the game, maximize the window while it's still rendering.  move something else around on top of it.  watch it turn to garbage)
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14:40 VanessaE (the above may only be true on linux)
15:15 Calinou saschaheylik> no but the 2d- 3d conversion
15:15 Calinou [citation needed]
15:15 Calinou today's GPUs can draw a lot of polys
15:15 Calinou <saschaheylik> id suggest not messing with pictures as extrudable 3d model fiormat replacement anyways
15:15 saschaheylik my 3d animals wouldnt have to be converted
15:16 Calinou separate 3D models will make texture pack creation a PITA for no benefit
15:16 saschaheylik thats not true
15:16 Calinou it will
15:16 Calinou I don't have the motivation to remodel EVERY SINGLE FUCKING BLOCK OR ITEM USING BLENDER
15:16 Calinou for my packs
15:17 saschaheylik you dont have to
15:17 saschaheylik you can simply change the textures like youre supposed to
15:17 saschaheylik not the models
15:17 saschaheylik its a TEXTURE pack
15:17 Calinou you were talking about making models for 3D extruded tools and stuff.
15:18 Calinou for player models and mobs it is OK
15:18 saschaheylik instead of, not for
15:18 Calinou it is NOT ok for items
15:18 Calinou because you will have to remodel so that it suits your pack
15:18 Calinou and it has close to no performance benefit
15:18 Calinou get a REAL FUCKING GPU THAT IS NOT 10 YEARS OLD, and your problems will be gone
15:18 Calinou or write a C++ mod that doesn't draw the 1500tris (OMG SO MUCH) of the wielded tool
15:18 saschaheylik you cant use the old tool textures on new tool models
15:19 Calinou ^ looks ugly
15:19 saschaheylik that much is true
15:19 Calinou plus, don't forget, UV mapping
15:19 saschaheylik yeah whatever i shouldnt get unnecessarily distracted
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15:46 LunaVorax hi
15:49 Calinou hi
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