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IRC log for #minetest, 2025-01-13

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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08:39 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Resolve some quirks with (wield) item meshes for nodes (#15654) 636a734 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/636a734d78b6c0b8392eabda350131690b800682 (2025-01-13T08:39:06Z)
08:41 MinetestBot [git] Desour -> minetest/minetest: Fix always waving semitransparent liquid regression 2bfcd45 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/2bfcd45b35d9e64cbbe54827c4d58d3b5082299a (2025-01-13T08:39:20Z)
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09:37 * cheapie giggles a bit at the branch name for #15654
09:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/15654 -- Resolve some quirks with (wield) item meshes for nodes by sfan5
09:37 cheapie https://xkcd.com/1296/ much? :P
09:51 MTDiscord <theidealist> HAAAAAAAAANDS
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11:10 MinetestBot [git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest_game: Add safety checks before overriding builtin item entity (#3177) ee1f2b6 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/ee1f2b68df3fd15b4d489d4c236abf5dfe4cd9ff (2025-01-13T11:09:45Z)
11:10 MinetestBot [git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest_game: Beds: allow digging stray top nodes (#3173) 1f4291f https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/1f4291ff0930e5facd9de64a5a36c4bfcb1d99d5 (2025-01-13T11:10:03Z)
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13:42 Guest21 why does luanti only require mods to be installed serverside? wouldnt having it be run client side be btter? it would negate the need for sscsm
13:43 SwissalpS lol
13:44 ireallyhateirc It appears to me that this community is focused mostly around hosting servers and playing on servers
13:45 ireallyhateirc sscsms make that easier
13:45 ireallyhateirc otherwise you'd need to tell the client to install this specific mod soup of CSMs
13:46 Guest21 considering that contentdb exists, wouldn't it make everything easier?
13:46 ireallyhateirc the current plan for SSCSMs is going to include ContentDB verification
13:47 Guest21 it would also potentially lighten the load on the servers (though it would push it to client, which may potentially not be well equipped cor such tasks), but it might allow for better key controls?
13:48 Guest21 if mods could run client side, keys could be handled by the mods themselves, so they could draw buttons for mobile or allow keypresses on pc
13:49 ireallyhateirc already downloaded CSMs will be stored, the load on servers would be the same I guess?
13:49 ireallyhateirc you need to download a mod at some point
13:50 Guest21 with the mods being downloaded on the client, the processing could be changed to client side—oh nvm itd facilitate _unscrumptious behaviour_
13:51 ireallyhateirc well idk, I'm not an expert. I'll welcome any solution for easy CSMs, even if it's SSCSMs
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13:52 Guest21 makes sense
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15:23 SwissalpS cdb is great but there are sometimes name conflicts and some combinations of mods need different versions of certain mods etc. etc.
15:23 SwissalpS it would still have to be the server that provides the mods to the client in the end.
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17:32 [ SSCSMs are a terrible idea
17:33 [ they can't be implemented securely and have the same software freedom issues as JavaScript on the web
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18:02 ireallyhateirc [, the issue boils down to "just don't use proprietary servers/SaaSS". That's why I proposed that clients should have the ability to exclude SSCSMs by license: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5393#issuecomment-2567093230
18:04 ireallyhateirc there's nothing stopping developers from making proprietary games for Luanti and telling the users to grab a proprietary CSM
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18:30 SwissalpS /4/4
18:33 sfan5 there's nothing stopping developers from lying about the license either
18:34 sfan5 unless you want to throw CDB reviews into the loop
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18:43 MTDiscord <mistere_123> If you lie about the license, then you would be distributing litigatable proof of copyright violation to everyone who joins, no?
18:44 MTDiscord <mistere_123> so maybe that would be a deterrent?
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18:58 MTDiscord <luatic> i agree. the best solution to software freedom concerns is to have no software at all. problem solved. thank me later.
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19:56 [ ireallyhateirc: there's also the issue of practical user freedom: it should be easy for the player to run modified versions of SSCSMs
19:56 [ and there's nothing stopping developers from doing that, but the process of installing a proprietary CSM isn't automated
20:06 ireallyhateirc I believe the plan outlined by one dev included allowing the client to decide which/if any CSMs it runs but I can't find that right now. An option to disable the server-sent aspect would be good as long as the game could be installed as a whole package (CSMs + ordinary mods) like most games do anyway
20:45 MTDiscord <mistere_123> sscsm shouldn't be used for things that, if the client changed the code, would allow cheating. There's a limit to what can be done about it, but take a sscsm that adds fog so the client can't see beyond a radius. (IK we already have this as a client feature). In addition to the fog which can be disabled, the server should also decline to send map or objects outside the radius that a normally-behaving client would be unable to see
20:46 MTDiscord <mistere_123> therefore clients ought not to change the code of sscsm in normal use, and we shouldn't make it too easy for them to, but if they do for malicious (cheating) or benevolent purposese (personal accessibility), its not a disaster
21:01 ireallyhateirc implementing DRM with a LGPL-licensed client makes no sense and completely defeats the purpose if you ask me
21:01 ireallyhateirc a real fix for cheaters is the server-side control of gameplay, everything else is just security by obscurity copium
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21:09 MTDiscord <et086> i think sscsm should be more used for visuals or features where its like "you dont have the sscsm, you dont get the feature"
21:24 MTDiscord <mistere_123> irhirc: I wasn't suggesting DRM, but simply using sscsm for instant visual effects: use it for custom physics but validate the physics serverside. use it for hud, but design it so modifing the hud can only give you less info, not more, because no more is sent, etc. of course you can't do that perfectly
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22:02 ireallyhateirc I understand that but I believe client modding should be possible. If that doesn't land in upstream Luanti someone will simply make a fork.
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