Time Nick Message 00:00 MTDiscord yes 00:01 ireallyhateirc ah, it's here: "This function should be overridden by protection mods. It is highly recommended to grant access to players with the protection_bypass privilege." 00:01 ireallyhateirc this is what I get for speedreading the manual 00:02 MTDiscord areas for reference https://github.com/minetest-mods/areas/ 00:03 ireallyhateirc I'm just trying to make my mod respect protection but using core.is_protected here and there should do the job 02:11 Blockhead256 ireallyhateirc: Neither do I like the high poly look that VanessaE created in her mods like pipeworks and homedecor 02:11 Blockhead256 but I feel like someone has to play devil's advocate. In the context of Dreambuilder, high poly is an established aesthetic for the nodes of that game 02:13 Blockhead256 so I would say that in terms of VE's mods, an option should continue to be available to play with, say, at least decagons to represent circles, depending on radius 02:13 Blockhead256 and they shouldn't change to squares, hexagons, octagons, etc. 02:14 MTDiscord meh 02:14 Blockhead256 I would say that the main reason nobody knows about the water pipes in pipeworks is because they do very, very little 02:14 Blockhead256 they can only do one liquid, they duplicate that liquid with no interesting flow mechanics, and about the most exciting thing you can do with them is a shower 02:15 Blockhead256 maybe octagons is enough with smooth shading 02:15 Blockhead256 or you can pipeworks water pipes to turn your hydro on and off if you wanted to 02:16 MTDiscord what do you think of the terrible example i provided? 02:16 Blockhead256 again, like, if it were up to me, I'd redo all of homedecor with rectangular toilet seats, completely rectangular sink hardware 02:16 MTDiscord wouldnt get push back from me on that. dunno on other mt-mods members 02:16 Blockhead256 wsor4035: probably good enough with smooth shading actually 02:18 ireallyhateirc in the end I don't care that much, but high-poly doesn't really blend well into voxel aesthetics and wastes resources while not bringing much to gameplay 02:18 Blockhead256 I did say decagons, that's a dodecagon 02:19 Blockhead256 I'd rather see a popular opinion as well, not just technocratic opinions 02:19 MTDiscord blockhead256: im thinking, though this may be limited by my terrible skill of replacing all the low poly in the mod since no one uses that anyways, and then making that the default, so people can have the old way if they prefer, but have a sensible default that looks decent (current low poly looks bad and isnt really low) 02:20 Blockhead256 if we could try to establish in the context, and it may be different, of (a) MTG and mod soup users and (b) Dreambuilder users -- as to whether each group has a preference that we can poll 02:21 Blockhead256 wait a sec, I have to change the Lua source to enable to low poly models? LUL 02:22 ireallyhateirc btw I think the current high-poly models aren't really the prettiest thing out there. They seem to be using more polygons for the sake of it rather than enabling more shapes 02:22 MTDiscord blockhead, no, read down, it reads minetest.conf settings in a loop 02:22 MTDiscord but that was very ve to not use minetest.conf since they didnt exist back then 02:24 Blockhead256 it's a setting that isn't in settingtypes.txt, that's a bug 02:24 ireallyhateirc one reason why I make every 3D model from scratch for my game is that people can't agree on a single artstyle, scale and polygon count 02:25 MTDiscord blockhead256: not if it isnt officially supported 😛 02:25 Blockhead256 yes I agree the current high-poly models are just excessive. Even if we wanted to keep it an option, we'd want to massively rationalize the poly count 02:25 Blockhead256 I wonder if VE even knew how to do smooth shading or just cranked the poly count until it looks smooth anyway 02:26 Blockhead256 of course, VE does not take 100% of modelling credit, there are various authors 02:26 ireallyhateirc the .obj files had smooth shading on by default when I opened them in blender 02:27 MTDiscord lol 02:27 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1323115259900465232/image.png?ex=6773569c&is=6772051c&hm=f70248bb2254e3a702431b80909dfc8ebbb73097d79530f4fcd316045dbb8b2b& 02:27 ireallyhateirc lol 02:28 Blockhead256 what's a UV lol 02:28 MTDiscord again, i disclaim that im terrible at 3d modeling. just taking a stab at shape atm. learned i need to make them smaller 02:29 ireallyhateirc this is painful to watch, I'll make some pipes for my game and will let you know 02:30 Blockhead256 I really don't think the ease-of-use of blockbench is worth it against the sheer functionality of Blender 02:30 ireallyhateirc yeah, learning blender is fairly quick with all these free tutorials 02:32 MTDiscord i dont need a swiss watch to make prototype. not to mention the swiss watch takes 10x as long 02:33 ireallyhateirc using blockbench for that is like smashing milk with a hammer handle to make butter 02:33 ireallyhateirc I could make that pipe for you in 5 minutes 02:33 Blockhead256 Blender gives you an easy way to import the old model and reduce its poly count, and easy ways to measure the dimensions of things 02:33 Blockhead256 but I understand it's nowhere near your specialty 02:34 MTDiscord I honestly hate these, for multiple reasons 02:35 MTDiscord what's wrong with just making them square 02:35 ireallyhateirc hmm fair point 02:35 MTDiscord itll look like item transport tubes, and basic. should somewhat look round 02:35 Blockhead256 so there's a clear shape difference between round pipes and square tubes 02:35 ireallyhateirc wsor4035, if you give me some time I could make these pipes 02:35 ireallyhateirc just give me a list of nodes you want replaced 02:37 MTDiscord am i that bad? lol 02:37 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1323117710980419664/image.png?ex=677358e4&is=67720764&hm=ff8122218ea3d3d600e9488037116295cb911e33fdddae77e8f448e8d32ed2de& 02:37 MTDiscord actually not bad, if the collars where adjust in one unit instead of being two 02:38 ireallyhateirc the rim is too thick and no UV map makes it look 3 times worse than it really is 02:38 Blockhead256 I've gone and placed the lowpoly models in my singleplayer world.. they look fine? 02:39 ireallyhateirc I'd say they're equally bad to the high-poly counterparts 02:39 MTDiscord its more that there still high poly, also the weirdo pipes being "round" with octagon joiners. also the square valves are very meh 02:39 ireallyhateirc one pipe shouldn't have more polygons than an entire mapchunk 02:40 MTDiscord also im not bothering to even attempt uv mapping yet since thats hell for me, and i still havent gotten the shape down yet 02:41 ireallyhateirc you're tempting me to implement pipes as the next thing for my game 02:41 MTDiscord also the visual disparity between "world where everything is cubes, even hills" and "hey look at this cylinder that rivals the polycount of garten of banban, now here's a whole line of them" 02:41 MTDiscord your free to make a pr replacing the water pipe models if you want, im not stopping you 02:41 MTDiscord im just playing around, learning more 02:42 MTDiscord and totally not baiting someone into cringing so hard they do it for me 02:42 ireallyhateirc lol 02:42 Blockhead256 the lowpoly models don't have too many polys though, they're just smooth shaded 02:42 Blockhead256 https://files.catbox.moe/0m9nbo.png 02:42 ireallyhateirc uhhh N-gons? 02:43 MTDiscord that too 02:43 Blockhead256 the triangulation isn't thaaat bad is it? 02:44 MTDiscord ? 02:44 Blockhead256 https://files.catbox.moe/7n43lr.png 02:44 ireallyhateirc I'll do a valve like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve#/media/File:Green_tubes_and_valves.jpg 02:44 Blockhead256 I won't say no to a pipe mod that doesn't suck, that's for sure 02:45 ireallyhateirc pipes in my game are mostly going to be just a decoration 02:45 MTDiscord 3d rendering turns literally everything into triangles on a technical level, nothing isn't triangles if you're looking at what a gpu is actually tracing. 02:46 ireallyhateirc csperson, true but for 3D modelling you usually want quad topology. It's easier to do modelling then 02:46 MTDiscord this doesnt actually look to bad 02:46 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1323119930773733426/image.png?ex=67735af5&is=67720975&hm=39fd6c9ade1602b2cb7af3f1a29a3aa5f53a8aa9b96c7b09dafd56f503051af2& 02:46 Blockhead256 cperson: I know this, hence why I asked, "the triangulation isn't that bad is it?" then posted an image with blender's triangulate operator on it compared to the first image 02:46 ireallyhateirc this starts looking decent-ish, now fix the UV map 02:47 MTDiscord blockhead, think i misunderstood, mb 02:47 Blockhead256 wsor4035: That will do well as a replacement for the highpoly models when it has smooth shading and a good UV map 02:47 ireallyhateirc though I believe you're going to have a tough time making a curved pipe consistent with what you've just made 02:47 ireallyhateirc which i could make in 3 minutes in blender 02:48 Blockhead256 > pipes in my game are mostly going to be just a decoration 02:48 ireallyhateirc I started learning blender 2 years ago to make my game in Luanti 02:48 Blockhead256 they are little more than a decoration in pipeworks as it stands, don't worry 02:48 MTDiscord ireallyhateirc: if it only takes you 3 minutes, where pr? :juanchi_face: 02:48 ireallyhateirc I'm aware. All I can provide is decent 3D models, the rest of the logic is up to those who care 02:49 ireallyhateirc wsor4035, I'd gladly make it but it's 4 AM and I'm about to go to sleep 02:49 MTDiscord fair enough 02:49 Blockhead256 yep we're not asking for good Lua code. That's up to someone who cares. But then, I haven't tested all the other liquid transport mods which are probably already better 02:50 Blockhead256 I always thought it would be cool if they could do wate and lava, without duplication, and where water and lava meet the pipe turns into obsidian 02:50 ireallyhateirc if you're patient enough then I'll make the pipes tomorrow 02:50 Blockhead256 people waiting for updates to VE mods are nothing if not patient 02:51 MTDiscord Blockhead, logically the water/lava thing would probably permenantly clog the pipes. 02:55 MTDiscord granted, it'd make sense as an interaction, but it'd probably frustrate someone if they accidentally had pipes connect that they didn't mean to if that accident resulted in such damages 02:59 MTDiscord ok, here you go 02:59 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1323123235386163331/image.png?ex=67735e09&is=67720c89&hm=100d4cb80d307217db8bbaddf8085a6fab2c782250185b07669ea9c4461ecfc1& 03:00 MTDiscord texture kinda hides the "blockyness" of it which is meh 03:00 MTDiscord also joints 03:01 Blockhead256 csperson: yes but the frustration is a game mechanic, and you'd try to be careful with straight-only pipes and so on 03:02 Blockhead256 not bad 03:03 Blockhead256 with water and lava pipes and spigots, plus a block breaker, you could make an obsidian machine 03:06 MTDiscord anyways, i give up on this for now 03:06 Blockhead256 well I hope you had fun and/or learned something 03:09 MTDiscord i learned im still terrible at this lol 03:11 Blockhead256 you know what they say, practice makes slightly less terrible 03:12 Blockhead256 that and self-teaching everything isn't that great 03:16 MTDiscord sucking at something is the first step to being kinda good at something -- some cartoon dog 07:20 SwissalpS this mod is using globalstep to export a report file at intervals. Wouldn't it be better to use core.after() for that? 07:24 MTDiscord core.after runs in a timed globalstep 07:26 SwissalpS on lua side? 07:27 MTDiscord Yes https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/5.10.0/builtin/common/after.lua 07:27 SwissalpS thank you very much. That is good to know 07:28 SwissalpS !next 07:28 MinetestBot Another satisfied customer. Next! 11:21 ireallyhateirc t 11:22 ireallyhateirc oh great, IRC loaded a this channel when I was typing in another one. Peak technology 12:36 SwissalpS is there a luanti badge to use in readme.md that actually checks version compliance? 12:55 SwissalpS and/or is there a code validator that can tell which versions of Luanti a mod will work with? 15:45 PoochInquisitor https://forum.luanti.org/viewtopic.php?p=441455#p441455 <-- spmmr 15:50 MTDiscord "ChatGPT, please write a generic but verbose response to the following forum post, so that I have an excuse to post on this forum solely to expose people to the link in my forum signature." 15:53 PoochInquisitor xposd! 15:54 ireallyhateirc reverse turing test 18:04 MinetestBot 02[git] 04grorp -> 03minetest/minetest: TouchControls: More methods instead of static functions (#15602) 1327c3aad https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/27c3aade5dc689db3e4eaa9c7273584bee6527ee (152024-12-30T18:03:32Z) 18:29 cheapie I wonder what would happen if I tried setting this 1.1GB PNG file as the texture for something... 18:30 cheapie SwissalpS: I was just thinking about that last night, it would be great if there was a "warn/crash if a mod does something introduced after version X" option 18:35 SwissalpS if there was a db of commands available per version, that would help create such tools more easily 18:36 cheapie That too, notes in the API docs like "core.blah_blah_blah(blah definition) [new in 5.10]" would be helpful 18:37 cheapie FWIW the 1.1GB texture resulted in "ERROR[Main]: Irrlicht: PNG fatal error for creative-20241228.png: Unreasonable size". Fair enough. 18:37 SwissalpS yes that too. I've lately resorted to checking out versions of lua-api doc and then doing a search to see if the command existed in it. 18:37 SwissalpS but that is tiresome manual labour 18:37 cheapie Surprisingly a 6400x6400 20.8MB texture works just fine 18:39 SwissalpS if you have the hardware for it :) 18:39 cheapie I guess I do 18:40 cheapie This isn't meant to be useful at all and it's not like I'm going to ship it, but it's weird seeing this much detail in a texture in-game: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20241230_123912.png 18:40 cheapie https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20241230_123903.png 18:40 cheapie Image is https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/ve-maps/creative-20241228-small.png 18:42 SwissalpS way too much detail for a blocky game ;D but sure is fun to see what could be done someday. 18:42 cheapie Now I'm tempted to grab a copy of MTG and run all of the textures through waifu2x a bunch of times or something :P 18:43 cheapie ...and I used to think HDX-512 was ridiculous - I mean, I still do, but not because of the size any more 18:43 * SwissalpS is thinking of how to grep all available commands from builtin 18:45 cheapie Also re: way too much detail - this came up recently, apparently there is finally an effort to fix it now: https://github.com/mt-mods/pipeworks/issues/148 18:46 cheapie I personally like the existing "low-poly" mode for the pipes themselves as far as the mesh goes, but the pipe texture and valve mesh are... meh. 18:46 SwissalpS yeah, saw that. I don't see the issue though. More like: let's make pipes impossible to render on low hw 18:47 cheapie Techage just goes all the way and makes the pipes square, I like that option too. 18:47 SwissalpS if the server can send low-poly to clients that want that and higher poly to others, then fine 18:48 cheapie Techage pipes, for comparison: https://content.luanti.org/uploads/5O6sd6ibRT.png 18:48 MTDiscord i think any regular n-gon shape is fine tbh 18:48 cheapie luatic: Part of me wants to make them triangular now 18:48 SwissalpS I also don't see why they are actual hollow pipes. All we need is the solid and a texture over it. 18:49 cheapie IIRC the current ones *are* solid 18:49 SwissalpS good 18:49 cheapie I can see the appeal of being able to see down a pipe, but I doubt it's worth the triangles. 18:51 pgimeno a disconnected pipe would look horrible if they were solid 18:52 MTDiscord cheapie: i unironically think triangular pipes wouldn't be so bad lol 18:52 MTDiscord i mean, i suppose ideally it should be symmetric in the cardinal directions but eh 18:53 cheapie pgimeno: At least the techage one (right) looks fine IMO: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20241230_125258.png 18:53 cheapie Both are solid 18:53 pgimeno ahh with a cap, ok 18:54 pgimeno yes, definitely good enough 18:54 cheapie With a cap on pipeworks, just a black void on techage 18:55 cheapie I also kind of like how techage only does bolted connections when the direction changes, instead of /every single node/ like pipeworks 18:55 cheapie Also the techage ones are actually useful, but that's a whole other story :P 18:55 pgimeno yeah but black is a cap in itself, I thought there was no cap and that would look awful 18:55 cheapie What, just like solid yellow? That would indeed be odd. 18:56 sfan5 cheapie, SwissalpS: [api versioning and such] related https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13926 18:56 pgimeno no, just no polygons at the ends, so you can see through and since the normals point outwards, you would see behind the pipe 18:58 SwissalpS was just thinking luadoc could already help parse out a lot 18:58 cheapie pgimeno: Oh, it gets worse than that, the pipeworks ones are double-sided. They do have an inside... 18:58 cheapie (the techage ones do not) 18:58 pgimeno eek 18:59 pgimeno burn these models! 19:01 cheapie Clipping inside a flow sensor is even worse, you can see the inside of the sensor body, but then also the pipe continues right through it and you can see the outside *and inside* of the pipe. 19:01 cheapie Same with the valve 19:02 cheapie pgimeno: Inside a valve: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20241230_130135.png 19:02 cheapie Outside, same angle, for reference: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20241230_130139.png 19:03 Krock is this a Steam Valve? 19:03 cheapie The connections at the end have two layers, both have an inside and outside, and the bolt heads have insides too: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20241230_130317.png 19:04 pgimeno the horror... that's double the number of triangles for... no good reason 19:04 cheapie No idea about the valve, but sfan5 counted 3600 triangles in a plain straight piece of pipe. 19:05 cheapie Hmm, looks like maybe the 3600 was the valve, ~2000 in the pipe, or something like that 19:06 cheapie The worst offenders were the homedecor bathtubs with 8870 triangles 19:07 Krock not quite the bathtub takes 2 nodes, thus 4435 triangles per "node" if my calculations are correct. 19:07 sfan5 for reference https://0x0.st/8sJj.txt 19:08 cheapie The bathtub appears to be a single-node thing, I can place another node overlapping with one end 19:08 Krock okay so that's a rendering performance test 19:09 cheapie In addition to being.... offensively round, considering the game it's in, it also has the same problems as pipeworks: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/images/screenshot_20241230_130858.png 19:15 cheapie I tried WE-ing in about half a million bathtubs out of curiosity, that didn't go well. 19:15 cheapie [3302261.544825] Out of memory: Killed process 474102 (luanti) total-vm:44087188kB, anon-rss:38250608kB, file-rss:10456kB, shmem-rss:0kB, UID:1000 pgtables:82500kB oom_score_adj:0 19:35 MTDiscord made an issue for homedecor before i forgot https://github.com/mt-mods/homedecor_modpack/issues/90 19:37 ireallyhateirc2 wsor4035, before touching pipes I need to do something else so you gotta be patient 19:37 MTDiscord uh, not sure how im impatient? 19:37 ireallyhateirc2 just saying 19:38 ireallyhateirc2 I kinda promised to do it today but such is life 19:39 cheapie wsor4035: May want to perhaps mention the other two (wine rack and pool table) in there as well 19:39 MTDiscord editted those in 20:09 ireallyhateirc2 is there a way to control light propagation through water and other transparent nodes? 20:11 ireallyhateirc2 water absorbs too much light, I think 1 light point per node? 20:13 sfan5 there is not 20:14 ireallyhateirc2 hmmm I'll check if there's a feature request for that 20:14 ireallyhateirc2 would be cool to have realistic water games 20:14 ireallyhateirc2 like SOMA or Subnautica 20:53 parabyte how much ram does minetest consume? 20:53 parabyte a stock install 20:54 sfan5 my current numbers are 200M in the main menu and 500M in game, but this won't be very useful 20:54 MTDiscord game will be dependant on what game your running 20:55 parabyte okay without the graphics etc loaded into ram, how much does the game engine consume? 20:55 sfan5 hard to answer because nobody uses an engine without graphics 20:56 parabyte im a very sick person, and wish to port minetest if possible to a 16bit platform 20:56 MTDiscord the best "answer" to your question is install air game, start it up and see how much it uses 20:56 parabyte haha not possible in my instance 20:56 sfan5 16-bit is out of question 20:56 parabyte they got doom engine working on 16bit 20:57 parabyte https://github.com/FrenkelS/Doom8088 20:57 parabyte sigh :( 20:58 parabyte sorry i was unaware of your name change Luanti! 20:59 ireallyhateirc2 on my machine it takes 600MB - 1GB but I have some specific settings enabled (huge mapblock caches and such) 20:59 ireallyhateirc2 at least Minetest Game eats that much 20:59 sfan5 Luanti is very very far from being able to run with 64K 20:59 sfan5 never mind getting itself smaller than 64k 21:00 ireallyhateirc2 with my WIP game there's no upper limit because mapgen can get OOM 21:01 ireallyhateirc2 even terraria runs with 128MB or something like that 21:09 Yodaa cam? 21:16 Yodaa there you are 21:16 cam789 Yep 21:16 Yodaa welcome 21:16 cam789 I was in #luanti 21:16 Yodaa oh 21:16 Yodaa these are all the developers 21:17 Yodaa you can send suggestions 21:20 ireallyhateirc2 Hmm also another problem with water: is it possible to control opacity/visibility in water? 21:23 ireallyhateirc2 there's this issue: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11895 21:25 ireallyhateirc2 also even if you set different fog when the player is under water then the player can still have a long view range when above the surface 22:18 ireallyhateirc2 Would people be happy with a MTG version of my shelf mod? I address the question to mod soup enjoyers mostly