Time Nick Message 00:41 Helenah How come 5.10 (I upgraded to get from 5.5) feels different, for the worse? 00:42 Helenah It's like some weird artificial lag on block breaking... 00:43 Helenah Maybe it's just me but the change in the physics feels negative. 01:03 Mantar I had that weird lag before, turned out I had set the chunk mesh cache thing up and it caused that somehow 02:47 cheapie Random nonsense from about 4.5 years ago that I'm not sure I ever shared here... someone combined a railroad crossing ahead sign with a "WHEN WET" plaque as a joke - I made it work: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/rrxing-when-wet.webm 04:20 Mantar that's hilarious 04:46 xmvczklm what do you guys think about "randomness" being not so random 04:47 xmvczklm when you look at caves they're always going to look like caves despite rnd.next() giving a unique sequence of values each time 04:48 xmvczklm same with dungeons, same with the mapgen in general 04:49 xmvczklm i think there was a mapgen developer a long time ago that tried solving this by adding new layers of noise that would control the "regime", essentially a new central tendency for local features for the area, but it ended up averaging out to sameness 04:51 xmvczklm if i'd venture a guess, i would say that's because "good" randomness follows a uniform distribution and a normal distribution when iteratively applied 04:51 xmvczklm bad randomness gives a certain character to some feature that is imperfect, but will still average out to something 04:55 xmvczklm "bad randomness" in the mapgen sense would be equiv. to adding a filter over the results of perlin noise that "compand" features within certain ranges to morph the probability distribution into a different one that's a non-generalized case of euclidian distributions 04:57 * cheapie makes a note to try mapgen modding sometime, would be neat to try to make a "good for building on but not entirely flat" mapgen 04:58 cheapie (mostly gentle hills, not a lot of water, etc.) 04:58 xmvczklm how do you flatten hills w/o losing non-hill detail?? 05:00 xmvczklm minecraft pre-generates the entire map before play and applies filters to each chunk based on a kernel of each surrounding chunk (if you think of an effect filter and a kernel of pixels applied to varying intensities) 05:10 Yuvi its definately interesting 05:13 cheapie xmvczklm: Less detail overall would generally be the goal 05:13 xmvczklm umm anyway getting back to what i was originally saying about the different distributions 05:13 cheapie Like among other things, just squash the vertical scale down a lot 05:13 xmvczklm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_probability_distribution --- this is what adding a regime would do in effect over the entire field of probabilities 05:16 xmvczklm it's essentially adding a new parameter to a CDF, that when expanded, is just a change in the old parameters by a certain offset/phase 05:17 xmvczklm like I guess what I'm saying is that because you have a normal distribution inside of a normal distribution that'll form another normal distribution, you need to have an entirely different distributions in order to get chaotic results 05:18 MTDiscord unless you could add this in a backwards compatible way, would have to do it in a new mapgen 05:18 xmvczklm and as a result, adding a regime noise on top of the other existing mapgen params won't really add any new variety 05:19 xmvczklm well I'm just asking, has anyone tried this before 05:19 xmvczklm b/c it'd offer a solution to a long standing issue with mapgens that's bigger of an issue than adding decorations or caves or whatever 05:29 MTDiscord Would probably be easier to have multiple simplex noise stack structs sitting in different scales and frequencies so that your 3d noise generation is actually 9d or 12d 05:30 MTDiscord Pure functional implementation also allows full force multithreading to really use that cpu cache and churn out a ton of map blocks 05:33 MTDiscord Might be able to add in fractal noise to get some interesting variation across the land 05:38 MTDiscord I wish erlemann were around so he can help us rediscover the ancient minetest delta meme 05:41 MTDiscord This meme right here 05:41 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1303957493000572969/eyRG3ZM.jpg?ex=672da48c&is=672c530c&hm=750ad8be1c7c68330cb395cc6c44779b8181c433e0dddbdd4c1cd9160d3089b8& 18:09 specing Any new years resultions planned? Maybe lifting the 32k node defs limit? Maybe lifting the 16 bit coordinate limit ? :) 18:13 SwissalpS lol 18:15 MTDiscord no, feel free to propose it as a meeting agenda item tho 18:16 jonadab Just add a fourth coordinate for dimension, which is normally zero unless _something_ messes with it, and let game authors figure out what to do with that :-) 18:17 jonadab (And mod creators.) 18:20 [ Maybe moving away from github to something freedom-respecting, like codeberg? 18:25 specing *proprietaryhub 18:32 specing switching from spycord to matrix/IRC/XMPP/Rocket.Chat/Zulip/Etc/etc would also be nice 18:33 jonadab Eh, for me, github is just a place to host public repositories. All the software and protocols that I use to interact with it is fully open, and I have my local copies of all the repos in case anything should happen, all I'd have to do is find another host. 18:33 specing (in no specific order. Forgive me if any of the listed are proprietary) 18:33 jonadab If you're using github's various value-add features, I could see the argument for freeing yourself from them. 18:33 specing the value add features create lock-in and prevent migration away 18:34 specing such as CI, wikis, network effect (users) 18:34 jonadab Yeah, if you use them, I can see that. 18:34 specing and the latter is also a large reason why luanti should move away. Luanti is effectively feeding users into microsoft's grip 18:35 [ jonadab: luanti does use github issues/PRs 18:35 specing Most games I've played thus far are hitting the node defs limit and have been doing so for years now. On most I've also stared from the edge into the unimplemented abyss, on some I've even touched the ceiling and mopped the floor 18:35 specing if coordinates were 32 bit it'd at least take some time before I could complain 18:35 [ 32-bit coords cannot be done without breaking backwards compat 18:36 specing I'm pro-breaking-backwards compat 18:36 specing if that's required for it 18:36 MTDiscord i mean, its doable by allowing it to be a setting 18:36 specing most likely it'd just be addon protocol so nothing major 18:36 specing and old clients wouldn't be allowed to exit the central area 18:36 [ then 5.4.1, the last minetest version using upstream irrlicht and without the basic debug hud flag, would become unusable 18:37 MTDiscord so sad 18:37 MTDiscord who uses 5.4.1 anyway 18:37 specing 5.4.1 is going to eventually become unusable anyways 18:37 MTDiscord multicraft :juanchi_face: 18:37 [ what if you spawn in or get teleported outside the central area? 18:37 MTDiscord fuck multicraft 18:38 specing Multicraft > Discord 18:38 specing [: then server sees whoopsey dooopsey and ... idk kicks you or teleports you to some predefined area? 18:39 specing I dont think this is such a huge problem 18:39 specing everything old in existing games would be in central area anyways 18:39 specing servers, too 18:39 [ you'd have a debian-user-free-zone for a few years 18:40 specing Good. They should install Gentoo 18:40 MTDiscord i mean, that sorta exists now anyways, given most of the popular games only support last two major versions which debian is usual behind 18:50 jonadab specing: I can see the node def limit thing, but I think a large part of that is due to all the non-full blocks (slabs, stairs, and what have you). I'm tempted to say that if you're going to break backward compat, wouldn't it be ideal, for each node to have a node-def field and a full-or-partial-def field, and they get combined, so e.g. aspen plank stairs would have node def set to aspen planks, and 18:50 jonadab the other field set to stairs. 18:51 jonadab (Or makes blocks a cubic foot instead of a cubic hard, and eliminate non-full blocks entirely, including fences and whatnot, and let players build it all out of blocks :-) 18:51 jonadab *yard 18:52 specing jonadab: I think so too. I think ideally minetest should do slopes and slabs and stairs on its own as a subid or something 18:52 specing param3 ? or 4? or whatever the first nonexisting one is 18:53 specing jonadab: yeah that'd also be interesting, small blocks. Would also be interesting to see the dynamics of tiny block manipulation 18:53 specing maybe an idea for a game jam somewhre 18:53 jonadab Slopes, I'm generally not a fan of, but if they're going to be done at all, they should be done that way, not independently for each block, yeah. 18:53 jonadab The one and only major downside of small blocks, is that building large structures would take longer. 18:53 jonadab Which, yes, it really would. 18:54 jonadab But I'd like to see it at least be an easy-to-set option. 18:54 jonadab (Maybe it is and I just don't know how? It seems like in principle it should not be hard to arrange.) 18:54 MTDiscord of course that stuff's down to the individual game isn't it 18:55 jonadab If a game can easily set that, I'd like to see one that does, even if it's otherwise basic like Minetest Game or whatever we're calling it these days. 18:55 jonadab Call it smallblock-demo. 18:55 jonadab Heck, it could be significantly _more_ basic than MTG, if it demonstrates the principle. 18:56 jonadab Stone, dirt, grass, one kind of tree, and that's it. 18:56 [ jonadab: wouldn't smaller nodes result in slower rendering? 18:56 jonadab (Well, and pick-axe so you can dig.) 18:57 jonadab Hmm, not as such, but it might result in players perceiving render distance differently, and wanting to set it higher. 18:58 jonadab But I think it would also result in players being more willing to build things like furniture out of full blocks. 19:19 SwissalpS one could build faster with small blocks by using tools focused on that job. And/or allowing players to make templates and then easy ways to copy them. 19:23 specing My guess would be making each tool by default manipulate 2x2x2 microblocks at once 19:24 specing and switching into "precision mode" when a key is pressed 19:25 SwissalpS actually I was thinking macro blocks ;) 19:26 SwissalpS instead of cutting micro blocks with a table-saw, combine bigger sets 19:26 SwissalpS as long as the database can handle it, modding shouldn't be the problem 19:31 yezgromafic damn, just as i thought i had original ideas 19:33 yezgromafic specing that would be a great solution for inconsistencies present in minecraft 19:35 yezgromafic a block is not the smallest divisible unit because there are slabs and stairs, so it would make sense to have 8ths of a block 19:58 specing yezgromafic: there are even smaller subdivisions 19:58 specing the table saw mod gives you some, the 1/16 plates for example 19:58 MTDiscord https://tenor.com/view/vat-cat-cats-kitty-dog-gif-20095217 19:59 MTDiscord Is it this smol though?