| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:41 |
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| 00:41 |
Helenah |
How come 5.10 (I upgraded to get from 5.5) feels different, for the worse? |
| 00:42 |
Helenah |
It's like some weird artificial lag on block breaking... |
| 00:43 |
Helenah |
Maybe it's just me but the change in the physics feels negative. |
| 00:47 |
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| 00:55 |
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| 01:03 |
Mantar |
I had that weird lag before, turned out I had set the chunk mesh cache thing up and it caused that somehow |
| 01:34 |
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| 02:00 |
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| 02:47 |
cheapie |
Random nonsense from about 4.5 years ago that I'm not sure I ever shared here... someone combined a railroad crossing ahead sign with a "WHEN WET" plaque as a joke - I made it work: https://cheapiesystems.com/media/rrxing-when-wet.webm |
| 03:01 |
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| 04:20 |
Mantar |
that's hilarious |
| 04:37 |
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| 04:46 |
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| 04:46 |
xmvczklm |
what do you guys think about "randomness" being not so random |
| 04:47 |
xmvczklm |
when you look at caves they're always going to look like caves despite rnd.next() giving a unique sequence of values each time |
| 04:48 |
xmvczklm |
same with dungeons, same with the mapgen in general |
| 04:49 |
xmvczklm |
i think there was a mapgen developer a long time ago that tried solving this by adding new layers of noise that would control the "regime", essentially a new central tendency for local features for the area, but it ended up averaging out to sameness |
| 04:51 |
xmvczklm |
if i'd venture a guess, i would say that's because "good" randomness follows a uniform distribution and a normal distribution when iteratively applied |
| 04:51 |
xmvczklm |
bad randomness gives a certain character to some feature that is imperfect, but will still average out to something |
| 04:55 |
xmvczklm |
"bad randomness" in the mapgen sense would be equiv. to adding a filter over the results of perlin noise that "compand" features within certain ranges to morph the probability distribution into a different one that's a non-generalized case of euclidian distributions |
| 04:57 |
* cheapie |
makes a note to try mapgen modding sometime, would be neat to try to make a "good for building on but not entirely flat" mapgen |
| 04:58 |
cheapie |
(mostly gentle hills, not a lot of water, etc.) |
| 04:58 |
xmvczklm |
how do you flatten hills w/o losing non-hill detail?? |
| 05:00 |
xmvczklm |
minecraft pre-generates the entire map before play and applies filters to each chunk based on a kernel of each surrounding chunk (if you think of an effect filter and a kernel of pixels applied to varying intensities) |
| 05:00 |
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| 05:09 |
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| 05:10 |
Yuvi |
its definately interesting |
| 05:13 |
cheapie |
xmvczklm: Less detail overall would generally be the goal |
| 05:13 |
xmvczklm |
umm anyway getting back to what i was originally saying about the different distributions |
| 05:13 |
cheapie |
Like among other things, just squash the vertical scale down a lot |
| 05:13 |
xmvczklm |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_probability_distribution --- this is what adding a regime would do in effect over the entire field of probabilities |
| 05:16 |
xmvczklm |
it's essentially adding a new parameter to a CDF, that when expanded, is just a change in the old parameters by a certain offset/phase |
| 05:17 |
xmvczklm |
like I guess what I'm saying is that because you have a normal distribution inside of a normal distribution that'll form another normal distribution, you need to have an entirely different distributions in order to get chaotic results |
| 05:18 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> unless you could add this in a backwards compatible way, would have to do it in a new mapgen |
| 05:18 |
xmvczklm |
and as a result, adding a regime noise on top of the other existing mapgen params won't really add any new variety |
| 05:19 |
xmvczklm |
well I'm just asking, has anyone tried this before |
| 05:19 |
xmvczklm |
b/c it'd offer a solution to a long standing issue with mapgens that's bigger of an issue than adding decorations or caves or whatever |
| 05:25 |
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| 05:29 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Would probably be easier to have multiple simplex noise stack structs sitting in different scales and frequencies so that your 3d noise generation is actually 9d or 12d |
| 05:30 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Pure functional implementation also allows full force multithreading to really use that cpu cache and churn out a ton of map blocks |
| 05:33 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Might be able to add in fractal noise to get some interesting variation across the land |
| 05:38 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I wish erlemann were around so he can help us rediscover the ancient minetest delta meme |
| 05:41 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> This meme right here |
| 05:41 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1303957493000572969/eyRG3ZM.jpg?ex=672da48c&is=672c530c&hm=750ad8be1c7c68330cb395cc6c44779b8181c433e0dddbdd4c1cd9160d3089b8& |
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| 18:09 |
specing |
Any new years resultions planned? Maybe lifting the 32k node defs limit? Maybe lifting the 16 bit coordinate limit ? :) |
| 18:11 |
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| 18:13 |
SwissalpS |
lol |
| 18:15 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> no, feel free to propose it as a meeting agenda item tho |
| 18:16 |
jonadab |
Just add a fourth coordinate for dimension, which is normally zero unless _something_ messes with it, and let game authors figure out what to do with that :-) |
| 18:17 |
jonadab |
(And mod creators.) |
| 18:20 |
[ |
Maybe moving away from github to something freedom-respecting, like codeberg? |
| 18:25 |
specing |
*proprietaryhub |
| 18:31 |
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| 18:32 |
specing |
switching from spycord to matrix/IRC/XMPP/Rocket.Chat/Zulip/Etc/etc would also be nice |
| 18:33 |
jonadab |
Eh, for me, github is just a place to host public repositories. All the software and protocols that I use to interact with it is fully open, and I have my local copies of all the repos in case anything should happen, all I'd have to do is find another host. |
| 18:33 |
specing |
(in no specific order. Forgive me if any of the listed are proprietary) |
| 18:33 |
jonadab |
If you're using github's various value-add features, I could see the argument for freeing yourself from them. |
| 18:33 |
specing |
the value add features create lock-in and prevent migration away |
| 18:34 |
specing |
such as CI, wikis, network effect (users) |
| 18:34 |
jonadab |
Yeah, if you use them, I can see that. |
| 18:34 |
specing |
and the latter is also a large reason why luanti should move away. Luanti is effectively feeding users into microsoft's grip |
| 18:35 |
[ |
jonadab: luanti does use github issues/PRs |
| 18:35 |
specing |
Most games I've played thus far are hitting the node defs limit and have been doing so for years now. On most I've also stared from the edge into the unimplemented abyss, on some I've even touched the ceiling and mopped the floor |
| 18:35 |
specing |
if coordinates were 32 bit it'd at least take some time before I could complain |
| 18:35 |
[ |
32-bit coords cannot be done without breaking backwards compat |
| 18:36 |
specing |
I'm pro-breaking-backwards compat |
| 18:36 |
specing |
if that's required for it |
| 18:36 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i mean, its doable by allowing it to be a setting |
| 18:36 |
specing |
most likely it'd just be addon protocol so nothing major |
| 18:36 |
specing |
and old clients wouldn't be allowed to exit the central area |
| 18:36 |
[ |
then 5.4.1, the last minetest version using upstream irrlicht and without the basic debug hud flag, would become unusable |
| 18:37 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> so sad |
| 18:37 |
MTDiscord |
<theidealist> who uses 5.4.1 anyway |
| 18:37 |
specing |
5.4.1 is going to eventually become unusable anyways |
| 18:37 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> multicraft :juanchi_face: |
| 18:37 |
[ |
what if you spawn in or get teleported outside the central area? |
| 18:37 |
MTDiscord |
<theidealist> fuck multicraft |
| 18:38 |
specing |
Multicraft > Discord |
| 18:38 |
specing |
[: then server sees whoopsey dooopsey and ... idk kicks you or teleports you to some predefined area? |
| 18:39 |
specing |
I dont think this is such a huge problem |
| 18:39 |
specing |
everything old in existing games would be in central area anyways |
| 18:39 |
specing |
servers, too |
| 18:39 |
[ |
you'd have a debian-user-free-zone for a few years |
| 18:40 |
specing |
Good. They should install Gentoo |
| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> i mean, that sorta exists now anyways, given most of the popular games only support last two major versions which debian is usual behind |
| 18:43 |
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| 18:50 |
jonadab |
specing: I can see the node def limit thing, but I think a large part of that is due to all the non-full blocks (slabs, stairs, and what have you). I'm tempted to say that if you're going to break backward compat, wouldn't it be ideal, for each node to have a node-def field and a full-or-partial-def field, and they get combined, so e.g. aspen plank stairs would have node def set to aspen planks, and |
| 18:50 |
jonadab |
the other field set to stairs. |
| 18:51 |
jonadab |
(Or makes blocks a cubic foot instead of a cubic hard, and eliminate non-full blocks entirely, including fences and whatnot, and let players build it all out of blocks :-) |
| 18:51 |
jonadab |
*yard |
| 18:52 |
specing |
jonadab: I think so too. I think ideally minetest should do slopes and slabs and stairs on its own as a subid or something |
| 18:52 |
specing |
param3 ? or 4? or whatever the first nonexisting one is |
| 18:53 |
specing |
jonadab: yeah that'd also be interesting, small blocks. Would also be interesting to see the dynamics of tiny block manipulation |
| 18:53 |
specing |
maybe an idea for a game jam somewhre |
| 18:53 |
jonadab |
Slopes, I'm generally not a fan of, but if they're going to be done at all, they should be done that way, not independently for each block, yeah. |
| 18:53 |
jonadab |
The one and only major downside of small blocks, is that building large structures would take longer. |
| 18:53 |
jonadab |
Which, yes, it really would. |
| 18:54 |
jonadab |
But I'd like to see it at least be an easy-to-set option. |
| 18:54 |
jonadab |
(Maybe it is and I just don't know how? It seems like in principle it should not be hard to arrange.) |
| 18:54 |
MTDiscord |
<theidealist> of course that stuff's down to the individual game isn't it |
| 18:55 |
jonadab |
If a game can easily set that, I'd like to see one that does, even if it's otherwise basic like Minetest Game or whatever we're calling it these days. |
| 18:55 |
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| 18:55 |
jonadab |
Call it smallblock-demo. |
| 18:55 |
jonadab |
Heck, it could be significantly _more_ basic than MTG, if it demonstrates the principle. |
| 18:56 |
jonadab |
Stone, dirt, grass, one kind of tree, and that's it. |
| 18:56 |
[ |
jonadab: wouldn't smaller nodes result in slower rendering? |
| 18:56 |
jonadab |
(Well, and pick-axe so you can dig.) |
| 18:57 |
jonadab |
Hmm, not as such, but it might result in players perceiving render distance differently, and wanting to set it higher. |
| 18:58 |
jonadab |
But I think it would also result in players being more willing to build things like furniture out of full blocks. |
| 18:59 |
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| 19:13 |
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| 19:19 |
SwissalpS |
one could build faster with small blocks by using tools focused on that job. And/or allowing players to make templates and then easy ways to copy them. |
| 19:23 |
specing |
My guess would be making each tool by default manipulate 2x2x2 microblocks at once |
| 19:24 |
specing |
and switching into "precision mode" when a key is pressed |
| 19:25 |
SwissalpS |
actually I was thinking macro blocks ;) |
| 19:26 |
SwissalpS |
instead of cutting micro blocks with a table-saw, combine bigger sets |
| 19:26 |
SwissalpS |
as long as the database can handle it, modding shouldn't be the problem |
| 19:26 |
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| 19:31 |
yezgromafic |
damn, just as i thought i had original ideas |
| 19:33 |
yezgromafic |
specing that would be a great solution for inconsistencies present in minecraft |
| 19:35 |
yezgromafic |
a block is not the smallest divisible unit because there are slabs and stairs, so it would make sense to have 8ths of a block |
| 19:49 |
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| 19:58 |
specing |
yezgromafic: there are even smaller subdivisions |
| 19:58 |
specing |
the table saw mod gives you some, the 1/16 plates for example |
| 19:58 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> https://tenor.com/view/vat-cat-cats-kitty-dog-gif-20095217 |
| 19:59 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Is it this smol though? |
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