Time Nick Message 10:10 MinetestBot 02[git] 04grorp -> 03minetest/minetest: Consistent width for internal scrollbars of formspec elements (#14689) 13d5fc040 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d5fc040d2df2d31acb454c000b38b95860b039cf (152024-05-24T10:10:19Z) 10:12 MinetestBot 02[git] 04grorp -> 03minetest/minetest: Scale C++ menus down to fit the window (#14690) 13728f643 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/728f643ea76278dcf89f9ac066062e7b895e46c8 (152024-05-24T10:10:46Z) 18:10 Blockhead256 rapid-fire question for the core team: would you consider WAV audio support y/n? conditions? 18:11 Blockhead256 did you know that for very short files, wav can be smaller? https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=30521 18:12 MTDiscord NO 18:12 MTDiscord But the longer answer is: NO WAY 18:12 MTDiscord But also, why? 18:12 Krock one audio format keeps it uniform and simple (in the code) 18:12 MTDiscord Also wav is proprietary 18:13 Blockhead256 because as I said, for very short files, it's actually smaller than ogg due to no/low container overhead 18:13 Blockhead256 proprietary? is it patented? 18:13 MTDiscord Microsoft 18:14 MTDiscord Do you want AI in your audio file? 18:15 Blockhead256 I'm just talking about a PCM format, not anything weird. Though I didn't realise you could put mp3 or gsm audio inside it and that might confuse people who think their files will work 18:15 MTDiscord Blockhead256: how much smaller? does this yield any significant savings in the end that justify the complexity? 18:15 Blockhead256 if you're allergic to wav with pcm, just because Microsoft invented why not be one of the objectors to zstd because facebook? 18:15 MTDiscord Mp3 is open source 18:16 Blockhead256 the more codecs the more complexity and I wanted to ask for a dead-simple format 18:16 MTDiscord Oh don't worry it's pretty simple already cause it's ogg vorbis 18:17 Blockhead256 luatic: you can shave 2000 bytes off a ~0.3-second long file https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=435994#p435994 18:17 MTDiscord 2kb 18:18 ireallyhateirc Blockhead256, flac would be better if anything 18:18 Blockhead256 well, the rest of my game's textures fit in a 454 byte PNG 18:19 ireallyhateirc flac is lossless and compressed 18:19 Blockhead256 so it's kind of annoying to have to have a 4 KiB file just for a fraction of a second of sound 18:19 ireallyhateirc so would be more network efficient 18:19 ireallyhateirc though still pretty fat 18:20 Blockhead256 let me check the container overhead on FLAC... 18:20 MTDiscord Okay, VoxeLibre seems to have approximately 500 .ogg sound files for example. This means, in the best case, we could save up to 1 MB for VoxeLibre, in total. VoxeLibre, zipped, is ~50 MB on CDB. This doesn't really seem to be worth it tbh. 18:20 MTDiscord If anything, opus is what you're looking for 18:22 Blockhead256 the container overhead is smaller than for ogg-vorbis, but the file still ends up bigger than wav for a tiny file 18:22 MTDiscord Windows 98 supported 768mb max memory, with a max specced windows 98 machine you can load up that entire game into memory 15 times over. That was 26 years ago. Are we stuck there? 18:23 Blockhead256 opus is more promosing, at 1347 bytes, only a bit bigger than 1123 for the wav 18:25 Blockhead256 https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=435994#p435994 18:27 Blockhead256 still the smallest file size in the set is the wav+zstandard, but opus is the best compressed codec 18:28 MTDiscord I am just, kind of confused. Why are we shaving bytes off files when people will just export them unoptimized anyways? 18:29 Blockhead256 well you see, I tried to make a game for Minetest in 4KiB, but I failed when I realised I'd need 4284 bytes just to have one sound 18:30 Blockhead256 also, Audacity seems to choose the hardest compression by default when exporting... 18:30 MTDiscord https://tenor.com/view/u-wot-m8-gif-20998179 18:30 MTDiscord This gif is compressed 18:30 Blockhead256 GIF is dead, long live WebM and MPEG formats disguised as "GIF" 18:31 Blockhead256 but seriously, either there's something inherently inefficient about audio compared to graphics and code, or Minetest doesn't have an efficient way to encode very short audio files 18:32 MTDiscord B3d is horrible 18:32 MTDiscord the median sound file length in MineClone2 is apparently 0.65 seconds 18:32 MTDiscord b3d isn't that bad 18:32 MTDiscord VoxeLibre* 18:32 MTDiscord It hurt me 18:33 MTDiscord Right in the brame, hab bramrbd fAmafr nooe 18:33 Blockhead256 I can fit an ore progression, torches, edible blueberries, water.. all that in ~2500B of Lua and 454B of PNG. But the audio is massive 18:33 MTDiscord Wanna know a secret? 18:34 Blockhead256 "sure"... rolls eyes preparing for some snide comment like "it doesn't matter" 18:34 MTDiscord Minetest is not optimized for the use case of making a game in 4 KiB and frankly that's a pretty niche use case :P 18:34 MTDiscord Audio is a time based format, if you compress it to purely interpolated spec way out of real-time it starts to sound like farts 18:35 MTDiscord If you took the same precision that audio needs and apply it to B3d you're going to have 18:35 MTDiscord https://tenor.com/view/yuge-huge-donald-trump-gif-7357158 18:35 MTDiscord Models 18:36 Blockhead256 at least 3d formats have bones. No bones in my audio tracks! 18:36 MTDiscord You can grabble off a few bytes but then you're going to start sounding like the audio chipset has started to melt off the motherboard 18:37 Blockhead256 anyway as the discussion had been lively enough... ever used SFXR? If Minetest could just decode SFXR files into audio that'd save heaps of space... 18:38 MTDiscord If you can make it work in minetest I'm sure that will be allowed maybe possibly 18:39 Blockhead256 there's a strange disconnect between the default 16px hard pixel aesthetic and high-def sounds. Chiptune seems to make sense 18:40 MTDiscord There is no aesthetic, minetest is some clay sitting on the side of the road waiting for you to pick it up 18:40 Blockhead256 I said the "default" aesthetic. The Minecraft one, the Minetest Game one and the one most other games use... 18:40 MTDiscord Minetest game is legacy, the future is now 18:41 MTDiscord Also if you turn on texture filtering it becomes n64 so I think we might need a Yamaha emulator in there as well 18:41 Blockhead256 hey, I can get behind a sound chip emulator. That'd save me heaps of space... 18:42 Blockhead256 truecolor and hi-fi are overrated anyway 18:42 MTDiscord This was of course a joke because the n64 does audio on the cpu 18:43 MTDiscord Also someone tell jeija to write a book on mesecons 19:59 Mantar audio tracker support when? 19:59 Mantar need me some .mod files 23:56 Libresoldier79 hello