Time Nick Message 00:55 erle https://mister-muffin.de/p/yMHl.png unwanted horizon tilt is eliminated by my friend li0n 00:56 erle minimum patch maximum commit message https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/xcam/commit/768c8b2caa01a0f631eacbe59913e84c4fc7f433 01:09 MTDiscord https://youtu.be/RAxomGVR12E?feature=shared&t=374 minetest sixel support when? 01:09 MTDiscord This is of course a joke, but cool either way 01:33 acarrico1 I've got a minetest server logging question. 01:34 acarrico1 In minetest.conf, I've got debug_log_level = warning 01:35 acarrico1 And that is correctly logging warnings to /var/lib/minetest/.minetest/debug.txt 01:36 acarrico1 So far so good, but the systemd logs are getting spammed with action logs. 01:36 acarrico1 I assume these are written to stdout or stderr and systemd picks them up. 01:37 acarrico1 Any idea how to stop these ACTION logs? Are there actually two different mechanisms or am I crazy? 02:01 acarrico1 ... It looks like the debian systemd unit sets StandardOutput=null which I guess would fix it. 02:01 acarrico1 Still does anybody know why the server is verbose logging to standard output? 02:03 acarrico1 The NixOS systemd unit has StandardOutput=journal which is a problem. 02:10 acarrico1 Looks like there is a command line option --quiet which may help 02:14 acarrico1 Doesn't seem like there is a quiet option in minetest.conf 02:33 DeepThgt The NixOS systemd unit has StandardOutput=journal which is a problem. 02:33 DeepThgt ooof 02:33 acarrico1 ... OK so adding StandardOutput=null to the systemd unit stops the minetest server from spamming the journal. 02:34 acarrico1 DeepThgt: Yup I added it in my confiuration.nix and it stops 02:34 acarrico1 I don't understand why the server is writing standard out when it has a log file. 02:34 DeepThgt good, stupid default on nixos's part 02:36 DeepThgt idk the motivations for why it does, but i am very greatful it does 02:36 DeepThgt its much easier than going back and forth to a log 02:36 DeepThgt when setting up a server initially 02:36 acarrico1 Do you happen to know if --quiet stops that? 02:37 DeepThgt i can find out, sec 02:37 acarrico1 If so it is probably a better solution 02:37 acarrico1 since the server doesn't waste resources writing to /dev/null 02:37 DeepThgt 7a\ 02:38 DeepThgt ya* 02:38 DeepThgt it suppressed all but warnings/errs 02:38 acarrico1 cool. 02:39 acarrico1 I'll try that and maybe send a patch to NixOS 02:42 acarrico1 DeepThgt: thx 05:37 erle rubenwardy very recently CDB started failing to load images on one of my devices. i found the result to be that content negotiation seems to be broken: even with an accept header of image/png;q=0.8,image/jpeg;q=0.7,image/*;q=0.6,*/*;q=0.5 it ALWAYS returns a webp image. 05:46 erle mostly unrelated: it seems the person who exposed the fact that lossy webp does not compare favourably to jpeg (google just compared it to the reference encoder cjpeg, not the highly optimized mozjpeg) has made a post on lossless webp as well, neat: https://siipo.la/blog/whats-the-best-lossless-image-format-comparing-png-webp-avif-and-jpeg-xl 05:47 erle > WebP is a good choice for lossless images since it easily wins over PNG when it comes to compression efficiency, having 41% smaller images on average. 05:47 erle seems they did not lie in their benchmarks this time! 05:47 erle > JPEG XL is the new kid on the block and makes a strong impression. The average file size reduction is around 48%, which is slightly better than WebP. 05:47 erle lol 05:53 erle ok so the png thumbnails still are accessible if i change the file extension. https://content.minetest.net/thumbnails/2/97de0f72cf.png 05:55 erle they do have visible compression artifacts though 05:55 erle meaning it is not lossless webp 05:55 erle and using mozjpeg is probably a better idea 05:55 erle i mean the webp images 05:58 erle rubenwardy visually comparing the png thumbnails to the webp thumbnails i found that the webp thumbnails seem to lose a surprising amount of detail here. in-game images look slightly blurry and have lower contrast. 05:59 erle like compare https://content.minetest.net/thumbnails/2/97de0f72cf.png and https://content.minetest.net/thumbnails/2/97de0f72cf.webp 06:00 erle this is really weird 06:04 erle like the grass and all nodes underwater just have lower contrast and the tree leaves are darker in webp and the area around the chair seems to experience some color bleeding 06:04 erle given that i can see this at 100% without glasses and with my bad constrast vision i wonder how noticeable this is for others 06:05 erle i guess using a lossy format for these kind of high-noise screenshots is not the best idea in general. i do not know how to encode a webp image though, but it should probably set to “lossless” in this case. 06:06 erle ah, now i see it 06:06 erle the webp image is 10% of the size 06:06 erle no wonder it is so badly mangled 06:17 erle rubenwardy i can see no visual difference between a jpeg at 8k and a webp at 8k, but at those rates of lossy compression, both of them seem to affect screenshots of minetest quite badly (as in: me, someone with less-than-perfect eyesight, notices issues with the thumbnails). 06:19 erle you should be able to notice these issues in any screenshot that contains minetest_game tree leaves, grass and any detail behind transparent water 06:27 erle wow, this level of contrast loss is pretty surprising. compare https://content.minetest.net/thumbnails/2/T5VZhncqSg.webp and https://content.minetest.net/thumbnails/2/T5VZhncqSg.png 06:30 MTDiscord The contrast is the same. Difference is sharpness 06:30 erle look at the red 06:30 erle hearts and red plant 06:31 MTDiscord Yep, same contrast, different sharpness 06:31 erle uh, maybe it is my bad contrast vision, but i perceive VASTLY different contrast here 06:31 erle how does this work? 06:31 erle also interestingly enough, converting the png image in my last message to a jpeg using gimp at 65% jpeg quality does NOT reduce the perceived brightness of the red 06:31 erle (the jpeg is the same size as the webp image approx.) 06:32 erle so what exactly is it about webp that makes the image lose contrast? 06:33 erle greenxenith, i can compare this, wait a moment 06:33 erle i make a picture in gimp 06:34 MTDiscord The overall contrast of the images are nearly identical. The reason the reds on the plant and hearts is less bright on webp is purely a difference in sharpness. 06:35 erle like, color bleeding? 06:35 MTDiscord more like blurring 06:35 erle yeah but then a jpeg should have the same effect at those sizes, right? 06:35 erle so why doesn't it? 06:36 MTDiscord Different algorithm, different decisions on how to handle neighboring colors at small scales 06:37 erle hmm, i think this gives a hint on why webp fails at the perceptual metric thing against properly encoded jpegs even at small sizes. i would have thought it might have an edge there, since jpeg is blurry as hell at some point. 06:37 erle human eye is sensitive to contrast, much more than to color 06:38 erle i just wonder which tradeoffs would lead to the thing uniformly losing up contrast AND darkening things 06:38 erle i mean it happens with the trees in the other screenshot as well 06:38 erle the leaves i mean 06:39 erle as if everything that has noise and is kinda bright becomes darker (not only mushed) in webp 06:39 erle i wonder if this is a gamma thing lol 06:40 erle in any case, blurry cdb is blurry and weird 06:47 erle greenxenith, wow, webp is amazingly worse than jpeg. look here: https://mister-muffin.de/p/qpKc.png 06:48 erle like see how the webp encoder loses all those red dots on the left? 06:49 erle rubenwardy i go to bed now, but i think you too can just convert some PNG to JPEG here (if you really want lossy compression) and see how much worse whatever your webp encoder does looks at the same filesize https://mister-muffin.de/p/qpKc.png 06:50 erle but i guess given that webp is a better *lossless* format what was intended here was probably lossless mode 06:50 erle no idea how that is turned on 06:51 erle maybe there was no content negotiation after all https://github.com/minetest/contentdb/commit/4578cb157f7fe4612d8a9a3b7c3b56bc86a2e83f 06:55 erle https://github.com/minetest/contentdb/blob/master/app/blueprints/thumbnails/__init__.py 06:57 erle i think there may just be a “lossless=true” missing here 10:48 ROllerozxa I believe it's intentional for webp thumbnails to be encoded lossily (though the quality may have been set at too low) 10:51 ROllerozxa if your browser somehow doesn't support webp then you really should update it or to another one. even netsurf supports webp... doesn't render the rest of CDB particularly well, but it still supports webp 11:01 MinetestBot 02[git] 04grorp -> 03minetest/minetest: Get rid of hidden settings in settings_translation_file.cpp 138bf2031 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/8bf2031310cd2a9b17f2549484ab974b0caaf0de (152023-11-11T10:59:38Z) 11:35 MinetestBot 02[git] 04waxtatect -> 03minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (French) 13adf9a39 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/adf9a3953b75b837ebc153d489bcf6d2e9eea86f (152023-11-11T11:06:10Z) 11:35 MinetestBot 02[git] 04BreadT -> 03minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Japanese) 13d056bb3 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d056bb3ee702c310f1956c71dc7e25909b727cd2 (152023-11-11T11:06:10Z) 11:35 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Methro -> 03minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Spanish) 13842b2bb https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/842b2bbd3655a6bd000ed6263c02d2bf52635034 (152023-11-11T11:06:10Z) 11:35 MinetestBot 02[git] 04joaquimpuig -> 03minetest/minetest: Translated using Weblate (Catalan) 132f279d2 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/2f279d24030c7a522a6877b77098e8b0a0314ae3 (152023-11-11T11:06:10Z) 11:35 MinetestBot 02[git] (16 newer commits not shown) 12:13 erle ROllerozxa lossy webp is ALWAYS worse than jpeg lol 12:14 erle i think you didn't get that memo 12:14 erle ROllerozxa basically lossless webp is better than png and lossy webp is worse than everything else than cjpeg (which is the worst jpeg encoder you can test against and google did that) 12:14 ROllerozxa ok 12:14 erle so if you need some combination of features (like lossy with alpha) that is an advantage 12:14 erle but as a standalone format, just look here: ttps://mister-muffin.de/p/qpKc.png 12:15 erle https://mister-muffin.de/p/qpKc.png 12:15 erle the webp and the jpeg are the same size 12:15 erle but the webp loses much more detail 12:15 erle (this is a detail of a cdb screenshot PNG thumbnail i encoded as jpeg with gimp and the webp served by cdb) 12:16 erle ROllerozxa here https://siipo.la/blog/is-webp-really-better-than-jpeg 12:16 erle > I think Google’s result of 25-34% smaller files is mostly caused by the fact that they compared their WebP encoder to the JPEG reference implementation, Independent JPEG Group’s cjpeg, not Mozilla’s improved MozJPEG encoder. 12:41 rubenwardy I intended to make is lossless 12:42 rubenwardy fyi, https://content.minetest.net/thumbnails/2/T5VZhncqSg.jpg also exists 12:42 rubenwardy oh nevermind 12:42 rubenwardy 500 12:43 rubenwardy cannot write mode P as JPEG 12:43 rubenwardy well, it's supposed to exist 12:44 rubenwardy I intended to make is lossless 12:44 rubenwardy I suppose it explains why webp was 5-10x smaller than png 13:07 rubenwardy cannot write mode P as JPEG => missing .convert('RGB') 13:07 rubenwardy what jpeg quality should I use? 13:08 erle depends on your encoder 13:09 rubenwardy I'm using pillow 13:09 erle no idea what gimp uses, but the webp at 80% was matched by jpeg at 65% with no arithmetic coding, but progressive and optimized, full colors 13:09 erle did you try passing ”lossless=true” to the webp encoding call? 13:09 rubenwardy yeah, haven't tested yet but that is documented 13:09 erle i can help you with content negotiation later btw 13:09 rubenwardy gtg 13:09 erle then you don't have to manage filenames in templates at all 13:13 erle btw, for png thumbnails, you can make them a little smaller if you force RGB 13:13 erle i noticed some are RGBA 13:13 erle which makes no sense if no alpha channel 13:14 erle rubenwardy i think it would be a good idea to test manually if you look at the difference between pictures using gimp layer subtract method 13:15 erle but i have no idea of the perceptual things 13:15 erle for my own mods i actually do like lossless thumbnails 13:20 rubenwardy The reason the thumbnails include the file extension is because they're statically served by nginx once generated 13:24 rubenwardy You can use a picture element to select an source image based on compatible formats or available space 13:24 rubenwardy But tbh I'm not interested in supporting super outdated browsers 13:25 rubenwardy https://caniuse.com/webp 13:26 erle uh what 13:26 erle i think you misunderstand 13:27 erle content negotiation is not about outdated browsers, it makes stuff like templates easier to maintain for example 13:27 erle and you could also have a setting in minetest for lossy or lossless thumbnails in the future if the minetest client would do it 13:28 erle without changing the url 13:28 erle (i was a backend dev once hehe) 13:29 erle rubenwardy do you use nginx as reverse proxy? 13:31 erle “WebP generally has better compression than JPEG” thanks caniuse hahahaha 13:31 erle :P 13:33 rubenwardy Yes, nginx is a reverse proxy to the python application but also serves the thumbnails directly from the filesystem 13:44 erle rubenwardy btw, did you not notice the webp issues or are you using some metric where it was not an issue somehow? 13:45 erle (i.e. an image similarity metric that does not care about cloor intensity) 13:45 erle appguru so about the horizon alignment 13:45 erle it was super easy lol 13:45 erle my friend li0n figured it out 13:45 erle appguru read this commit and be amused: https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/xcam/commit/768c8b2caa01a0f631eacbe59913e84c4fc7f433 13:47 appguru mhm i don't think this will work if you look perfectly down 13:47 erle appguru so now it is like this! https://mister-muffin.de/p/yMHl.png 13:47 erle hahaha 13:47 erle it works 13:47 rubenwardy I only have roughly half the images downloaded locally, I tested by inspecting the home page and package list pages but didn't zoom in 13:47 erle it works perfectly 13:47 erle rubenwardy well i noticed even without zoom on a dirty screen without glasses, that's why i asked 13:47 appguru won't you get a zero vector if you look perfectly down or up? (0, 1, 0) and (0, -1, 0) look dir => right of (0, 0, 0) 13:47 rubenwardy Yeah I can see it very clearly on my phone 13:48 erle rubenwardy i think maybe it was because my *own* screenshots lost details 13:48 erle like it just looked weird 13:48 erle oh yeah on the phone it's prob obvious hehe 13:48 rubenwardy Would have been helpful to get an up to date backup locally so I could have side by side tested 13:49 erle well if the lossless webp thing works at least that's no issue. 13:49 appguru i still think the proper solution is probably something like local angle = girl:get_look_horizontal() + math.pi/2; local right = vector.new(math.cos(angle), 0, math.sin(angle)) 13:49 erle i kinda doubt lossy is good at all 13:50 erle appguru why what does that do? 13:50 appguru + math.pi/2 may have to be - math.pi/2, the sin and cos may need to be swapped and/or inverted 13:50 erle and how much is it different than my ghetto solution 13:50 appguru erle: that gets the horizontal rotation and rotates it by another 90 degrees to get the "right" vector 13:51 erle uh, so how much does it differ from the one i construct here? 13:51 erle btw, the player can not look perfectly up or down 13:51 erle check it out 13:52 erle i wonder which other issues that prevents 13:52 appguru "btw, the player can not look perfectly up or down" - interesting 13:53 erle only ±89.5 degrees 13:53 erle don't want to get gimbal locked lol 14:46 Guest84 hello. If I activate mobs in a world that didn't have mobs before, will that crash it? What if I regret it later? 14:54 definitelya Mod conflicts would be the reason for a possible crash, make sure the active mods aren't conflicting. In case you remove the mobs mod and don't want to remove the resulting unknown entities, use the mobs mod in a new world you don't care about, I suppose. 14:57 Guest84 so the recommendation is to never activate mobs in worlds that are running 14:59 definitelya Yes, if I use that world I won't test / try mods on it. 15:00 Guest84 I understand, thank you 17:04 copygirl When defining a node with nodebox drawtype and facedir paramtype2, is there a way to have the textures not rotate with the facedir specified? 17:07 MTDiscord world-aligned textures might be what you're looking for, I think 17:09 copygirl Ah, `align_style="node"/"world"/"user"` - I'll check it out. Ty 18:28 erle i get the “i do not want to support old browsers” thing, but i find it extremely frustrating if something that worked fine stops working. guess i have to figure it out. 18:28 erle (also “supporting” a “browser” is a bit weird, because inversion of control haha) 18:57 erle what's the correct way to have a wield image some degrees rotated? like, holding a map or photo in the player hand 19:10 muurkha erle: agreed 19:16 erle muurkha thank you for telling me things about rendering 3d stuff. do you have any idea what i could add to xcam? 19:17 erle currently it looks like this https://mister-muffin.de/p/yMHl.png 19:18 erle i wondered if the photos should have metadata, but then that metadata would probably take the fun out of it 19:18 erle like if there was location information, you could not just hand someone a photo of your secret base 19:19 erle what if i made a panorama mode where it makes 6 photographs and then sets that as the skybox hehehehe 19:33 erle rubenwardy greenxenith i figured out why lossy webp looks so shitty for minetest screenshots, it only supports 4:2:0 chroma subsampling, which is basically the enemy of pixel art and fine detail. 19:33 erle something to do with vp8 frame coding stuff it was built on 21:11 DeepThgt anyone know how to obtain the inv of bones that were placed out of bounds? 21:11 erle DeepThgt yes. you have to use some mod that can access it server-side. 21:12 DeepThgt suggestions? lel 21:12 erle DeepThgt the map is, for various reasons i do not want to go into, surrounded by a mapblock shell that is invisible on the client, but server-side mods can still interact with it 21:12 erle i.e. they are never sent to the client 21:12 erle DeepThgt btw what is missing for xcam to be used on your server? also is that server fast enough that the photos do not hang it? 21:13 DeepThgt i havent been able to toss it on there yet as i have bigger lag issues to address 21:14 erle what kind of lag issues? 21:14 erle what mods does it run? 21:14 DeepThgt http://stealinyour.info/Pernia/.git/tree/ 21:15 DeepThgt lag issues meaning lua sucks 21:15 DeepThgt we are maxxing out the one thread it runs on 21:15 DeepThgt with luajit 21:16 erle uh no 21:16 erle lag issues usually mean either your mod sucks or, by extension, the author sucks 21:17 DeepThgt or in the case of technic, lua sucks 21:17 DeepThgt issues only started happening when myself and the other admin started really using it hard 21:17 erle so what makes it “lua sucks” and not “technic sucks” 21:17 erle i mean yes, lua sucks 21:17 erle but that's rarely the performance problem in my experience 21:18 DeepThgt its fine up until you heavily, heavily use it 21:18 DeepThgt and technic does suck, technic_plus fixed the suck as far as i can tell 21:18 DeepThgt to where it seems like lua is the bottleneck 21:18 erle so what do you do then 21:19 erle that makes it lag 21:19 erle also consider that making a photo can only ever introduce ONE lag spike per photo taking 21:19 DeepThgt hv networks with 20k nodes, 30+ quarries running at the same time 21:19 erle if you have a good idea on how to make that less problematic btw i will take advice 21:29 DeepThgt ok, so it looks like one of the 3 things would fix my issue 21:30 DeepThgt moving the bones node above CONTENT_IGNORE node somehow 21:30 DeepThgt my client ignoring CONTENT_IGNORE 21:30 DeepThgt or being able to modify the bone node's inventory 21:30 DeepThgt none of the 3 i have an off the shelf solution either 21:31 DeepThgt so, would the bug that i just encountered be in minetest, or minetest_game? 21:31 DeepThgt idk which handles bones 21:40 erle DeepThgt look the thing is, the nodes are NEVER sent to the client 21:40 erle DeepThgt they exist, they can be handled by server sent mod 21:40 erle DeepThgt “ignore” nodes are just parts of the map that are not loaded. i.e. the (visible) map border is permanently unloaded on the client. 21:40 DeepThgt ok 21:41 DeepThgt so, either move the node or modify its inv 21:41 erle if you have a mod that moves nodes and also their node meta (i.e. the inventory) you can easily hide stuff in the map border 21:42 erle (and it would be extremely pointless to special case the map border for those) 21:42 erle i did it 21:42 erle so the trick is to have some kind of hopper node 21:42 erle that can take inventory from a node above it 21:42 erle and spit it out to the side 21:43 erle btw, if you want to see what kind of “extremely pointless attempts to fix stuff at the map border” i mean, go visit the map border in mineclone2 haha 21:43 erle and spawn some mobs there 21:44 DeepThgt i have some mobs at the bottom in mt-game 21:44 erle DeepThgt how did the bones get there in the first place btw? 21:44 DeepThgt its fun the cats fall into the shadows and hop back out 21:44 DeepThgt .... TNT 21:44 DeepThgt lol 21:45 erle wait but how did you get out of bounds 21:46 erle i mean i know you can explode tnt out of bounds 21:46 DeepThgt the node in bounds was apparently occupied wheni died 21:46 DeepThgt so the bones went to the next unoccupied node 21:46 DeepThgt as its want to do 21:46 erle i guess the fix would be to chose the next unoccupied node in the current mapblock probably 21:47 DeepThgt or have all beyond the barrier be CONTENT_IGNORE 21:47 DeepThgt instead of 1m deep 21:47 DeepThgt with empty space 21:54 erle DeepThgt not again this bullshit 21:54 erle DeepThgt everyone who hears about this for the first time has like SUPER NEAT ideas about how the map border should be changed 21:54 erle DeepThgt even coredevs 21:54 erle (in the past) 21:54 DeepThgt so, there should be documentation fo whats been discusssed lol 21:54 erle it's a chestertons fence thing 21:55 erle as i said, the visible map border is just an area that is permanently unloaded on the client 21:55 erle EVERYTHING else follows from that 21:56 erle i mean everything that concerns you ig 21:56 erle as to why the shell is needed, imagine someone writing a mod that generates structures and such a structure gets placed at a visible boundary 21:56 erle as such that it transgresses the boundary 21:57 erle you can either have what you have right now, i.e. “it just works” 21:57 erle or you have to do with a ton of cases where random code special cases the map border 21:57 erle other games do this too btw 21:58 erle like when in command & conquer you have units spawning out of bounds and driving into the map 21:58 erle the real map is bigger than what you see 21:58 erle pokemon (gameboy) too 21:58 erle that what you see on screen is not the entire map is a common and useful idiom 21:59 erle DeepThgt btw is that on your server? 22:01 DeepThgt ya 22:04 erle DeepThgt i can give you a way funnier solution then 22:05 DeepThgt im all ears 22:05 DeepThgt i just got why my idea wouldnt work. duh 22:05 DeepThgt low sleep lol 22:05 erle add 1000 to MAX_MAP_GENERATION_LIMIT in src/constants.h and then recompile minetest and start the server with that 22:05 erle i mean you can add a lower number 22:05 erle but at least 80 22:06 DeepThgt that would work 22:06 erle i can not promise it, but the fact is, this constant is entirely arbitrary 22:06 DeepThgt thanks, i at least now have 1 solution i know how to implement 22:06 erle the only purpose is to keep away far from the bounds of 16 bit signed integer space 22:06 erle see the comment in that file 22:06 DeepThgt i wonder what would happen if i then loaded the world on a standard build 22:07 DeepThgt cause i just built a buncha stuff at the bottom :| 22:07 DeepThgt i can always find out 22:07 DeepThgt thats why we have dev and staging lol 22:07 DeepThgt problem with this solution is downtime 22:08 DeepThgt well, wouldnt be too bad 22:08 DeepThgt hrm\ 22:08 erle look i only suggested it because it is the funniest one 22:08 erle the arguably less funnier solution is to have some server side mod that access that inventory 22:09 erle and either spits it out into the visible part of the map or just shows you a formspec 22:09 erle though hmm 22:09 erle i think there is a boundary over which nodes can not have meta 22:09 erle i wonder where it was 22:09 erle i *think* it was further out 22:09 erle but i am not entirely sure 22:09 erle how do you even know the bones got placed there in the first place? log message? 22:09 muurkha erle: maybe some vignetting and sepia would be cool 22:10 DeepThgt ya logged 22:10 DeepThgt 2023-11-11 21:04:37: ACTION[Server]: NASTYNATE dies at (-2462,-30913,3653). Bones placed 22:10 erle muurkha just because i have a toy camera i don't have to make it less useful right? 22:10 muurkha Mina points out that a timer for a group photo would be a cool feature too :) 22:10 erle muurkha with effects i mean more practical ones like depth of field 22:11 erle i shall make xcam an API i guess 22:11 erle so you can make all your things yourself 22:11 erle like timers and stuff 22:11 erle i still have to figure out how to raycast so much without hanging the server for a moment 22:12 DeepThgt .i wish the 3ds was more powerful 22:12 DeepThgt id snag one and try to port to it 22:12 DeepThgt then see if i could get stereoscopy working 22:12 DeepThgt but the 3ds is weak 22:12 muurkha vignetting and sepia are very practical inded 22:12 erle muurkha in what ways? 22:13 muurkha I was reluctant to suggest depth of field for computational reasons 22:13 muurkha I mean sepia is just multiplying the pixels by a constant rgb vector for example 22:14 muurkha and vignetting is almost as cheap 22:14 erle i already do the depth of field for supersampling reasons anyway 22:14 erle it is just very subtle 22:14 erle or maybe i do it wrong 22:26 erle muurkha i want honest materials, that is the thing 22:26 erle muurkha every ornament has to do work to not be considered a crime 22:38 muurkha erle: oh, I like ornament 22:40 erle muurkha it should not be pointless, that's my assertion 22:41 erle for example, i see a difference in category between the dithering shader that reduces banding and the waving leaves shader 22:41 erle the latter looks funny and makes holes in geometry 22:41 erle (does it still do that?) 22:42 muurkha what would it mean for ornament to have a point? 22:42 muurkha it affects your perception, that's what it's supposed to do 22:43 muurkha people have a subjective experience of it, which they may like or dislike 22:44 muurkha what higher purpose can something in a video game or in an art photo serve, other than provoking such a subjective experience?