Time Nick Message
08:59 imi why math.tointeger doesn't exist in my minetest lua?
09:00 rubenwardy integers don't exist in our version of lua, use tonumber and math.floor
09:00 rubenwardy MT uses Lua 5.1 and LuaJIT
09:01 rubenwardy I believe integers were added in Lua 5.3
09:20 imi I see, thanks
11:06 imi can I have hidden fields in formspec similar to html ?
11:07 rubenwardy you can make field have no width/height
11:07 rubenwardy but I suspect what you actually want to do is store information between gui send/receive, in which case use a context
11:07 rubenwardy ~book formspec
11:07 rubenwardy !book formspec
11:07 MinetestBot rubenwardy: GUIs (Formspecs) - https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_modding_book/en/players/formspecs.html
11:08 rubenwardy (a context is a per-player table stored on the server)
11:40 imi ok thanks
16:27 definitelya |/!\ Cubees >>> Voxey /!\
17:43 MTDiscord i don't think that minetest engine features bees
17:59 MTDiscord TBH, IDK of any rename for minetest that would work that doesnt involve a reference to cubes/voxels. Maybe OpenWorld. But, as minetest can already be used for non-openworld games, meh.
17:59 MTDiscord Any idea kickstarts?
18:00 Blockhead256[m] I prefer the name "Minet"
18:00 Blockhead256[m] It's unique, but still a nod to the old name and to mining
18:00 Blockhead256[m] the pronunciation is up in the air "minety" or "min-ette"
18:01 MTDiscord oh, um, that actually works
18:01 MTDiscord I'd post that on the issue
18:02 MTDiscord if I were you
18:02 MTDiscord "Minet" works well also because while we know it's Mineter than a lot of other games, it might not necessarily be the absolute Mintest anymore.
18:02 MTDiscord :groan:
18:03 MTDiscord Also, I have a hard time not pronouncing it as "mi-NAY"
18:03 Desour it's Minet => MinetEst *spongebob*
18:04 Blockhead256[m] posted
18:04 Blockhead256[m] yeah pronunciation is the problem posted by Minet
18:04 Blockhead256[m] I still like it though
18:04 Blockhead256[m] s/posted/posed
18:05 MTDiscord Plenty of names can work for a game engine that have nothing to do with cubes. If you can make it adjacent to cubes in a subtle way, then thats cute I suppose.
18:05 MTDiscord Well, its not like godot's pronounciation is determined weither
18:05 MTDiscord *either
18:06 MTDiscord The fact that people would disagree on how to pronounce "minet" seems thematically appropriate for a game community that can't agree on how to pronounce "mese".
18:06 MTDiscord You look jutht like buddy holly
18:06 MTDiscord MINM <- Minetest is not Minecraft, continuing the old FOSS tradition
18:06 celeron55 i propose that to officially mean: Minetest is not Minetest
18:07 celeron55 that seems to partially be the theme anyway
18:07 Desour MITM <- Minetest Is not a Test for Minecraft
18:07 MTDiscord MAM <- Minetest aint Mine----
18:08 celeron55 or how about a logical upgrade to the name: Ourtest
18:08 MTDiscord here we go again XD
18:09 MTDiscord If it were "mytest" then "ourtest" would work, but since it's "minetest" it should be "ourstest" instead.
18:09 celeron55 true
18:09 MTDiscord just call it "Renamed"
18:09 MTDiscord I mean we wont have another opportunity to remove "test"
18:09 MTDiscord MineStaging
18:10 celeron55 Minerelease
18:10 celeron55 we can restart from v1.0 while at it
18:10 MTDiscord ouch
18:11 MTDiscord alphabetical versioning ;- )
18:12 MTDiscord I'm torn between doing the Minecraft "restart from 1 and make all version numbers confusing" thing, vs the evergreen browser "just give up on compat promises and bump major every time we sneeze" thing. So maybe we can compromise and release like v128.1.0.0, where "1.0.0" is the actual semver part of the version and we just bump the first number so that technically we never make compat promises that could be broken.
18:12 Desour Ninetest
18:12 Desour Neintest
18:12 celeron55 Oursrelease, but shortened to O'release. Then everyone can make silly poems while waiting for a new release
18:13 MTDiscord Jamble, Messe, Oerken, Cluox, Boxshed, Im Making This Up As I Go
18:13 MTDiscord voox
18:13 Desour Boxshed yes
18:13 celeron55 i like the obscure O'. The O'mese Engine
18:13 MTDiscord Better do a trademark search down the cleaning products aisle at your store first, just in case.
18:13 MTDiscord actually, Boxshed +1
18:14 MTDiscord That was a joke
18:14 MTDiscord Boxshed looks like it would be hard to pronounce correctly.
18:14 MTDiscord Because its a cube (box) engine where all we do is bikeshed
18:14 MTDiscord voxhed
18:15 MTDiscord like it'd sound like bock-shed in a GA accent. We don't do that awkward stuff like "mathsths" stuff that Brits do.
18:15 celeron55 bikengine
18:15 MTDiscord I was going to suggest Reboxed, but that would conflict in a different department
18:15 celeron55 the funny thing is, i think nobody would complain about any of these proposed names as they do about minetest if these are what the name would have originally been. so all of them are better
18:15 MTDiscord Remine'd
18:15 MTDiscord "Reboxed" sounds like a great way to get frivolous trademark threats from both game developers AND show developers.
18:15 celeron55 of course assuming another brand didn't force a name switch due to trademark law
18:15 MTDiscord *shoe developers
18:16 celeron55 I like Remine'd
18:16 Desour I'm worried that the new name will be hard to write correctly after hearing it. i.e. voxhed could be written vokshed, if I pronounce it correctly. and kutiko could be written with c
18:16 MTDiscord VoxBox was also in my idea list but I wanted to steer clear of voxel names
18:16 MTDiscord ok Ill post it
18:16 MTDiscord I wonder if "untrademarkable" as a name would give pause to anyone reviewing a hostile trademark application 😄
18:17 celeron55 or, really, to be honest, i like any name, including minetest. the weirder the better
18:17 MTDiscord My "backup" name for NodeCore, should I ever be compelled to do a rename, is "Capsicum"
18:18 MTDiscord Hmm, for Minetest, I like the name Build With Blocks, Then Get Bored (BWB:TGB for short)
18:18 celeron55 just picking up a random spice or whatever and using that as the name of the project is fun
18:18 celeron55 you always forget what the name was
18:19 celeron55 a bit like every desktop linux program created in the 2010s
18:19 MTDiscord Hmm, spice ... how about Minelange 😄
18:19 MTDiscord Creeate
18:19 celeron55 Bored Blocks World... wait
18:19 MTDiscord If you want to follow a more unix naming pattern, just make the name "mt"
18:20 celeron55 i almost suggested "MT", but "mt" is even better
18:20 MTDiscord Big Boredom Cube.. aha
18:20 MTDiscord uh oh
18:20 celeron55 it's a bit like Qt, but more m
18:21 MTDiscord As if we didn't already have issues with that one highly unfortunate anagram 😏
18:21 Desour mt pronounced englishly is "empty"
18:21 MTDiscord so, that would be rather unfortunate
18:22 MTDiscord That's sort of nicely subliminal
18:22 celeron55 "mte", but the letters and words rotated to "emt". It's a finnish informal shorthand for "i don't know"
18:22 Desour well, if you don't install anything, minetest is kinda empty
18:22 MTDiscord Tell that to builtin
18:22 celeron55 Desour: that's perfect
18:23 MTDiscord ok. well. mt, someone post it
18:23 celeron55 now just tell me what sort of web domain it could possibly have
18:23 MTDiscord mt.world
18:24 MTDiscord that would be bad
18:24 MTDiscord Minétest
18:24 MTDiscord (minimal malicious compliance rename)
18:24 Desour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT_Framework?useskin=vector
18:24 celeron55 ok that sounds slightly risky
18:24 MTDiscord oh well
18:24 MTDiscord "Game? Engine?"
18:25 MTDiscord "MT stands for Multi-Thread" ... pinnacle irony.
18:25 MTDiscord we should just call MT VoxelManip ✨
18:25 Desour can we reverse-acronym mt?
18:25 MTDiscord You might have to buy the rights off of Roller for that by now though.
18:26 MTDiscord yeah how about, mt.tm
18:26 MTDiscord IdentiT (crisis)
18:26 celeron55 Sphere Engine
18:26 celeron55 with only cubes to be found
18:26 MTDiscord About that
18:26 celeron55 that would be perfect too
18:26 MTDiscord minetest grade sphere approximation: cube
18:27 MTDiscord Cryptikube
18:27 celeron55 Perttu's Mod
18:27 celeron55 i mean it works for the other one
18:28 MTDiscord then we might as well call this Boblox
18:28 Desour how about human names, like "Bob"
18:28 MTDiscord Robary's World of Craft
18:28 MTDiscord Just call it Lox: Roblox but without the robbery.
18:28 celeron55 ah i've always wanted to go to jail with millions of debt
18:28 MTDiscord excellent
18:28 MTDiscord Lox isnt bad
18:29 MTDiscord Lox is just for learning
18:29 MTDiscord (if we're talking about Bob's Lox)
18:29 MTDiscord Talking about Lox now makes me want bagels.
18:29 MTDiscord but not ones dunked in liquid oxygen, thanks.
18:29 MTDiscord Let's accept our ecosystem and name it after food
18:30 MTDiscord Bagel seems fine
18:30 Desour apple
18:30 celeron55 8D
18:31 MTDiscord ^^^^^^^
18:31 MTDiscord Good thinking
18:31 MTDiscord This can't go wrong
18:31 MTDiscord Its happy, at least
18:32 MTDiscord 8D? Where are the other 5 dimensions!?
18:32 MTDiscord The AirSword Game Engine
18:32 MTDiscord "This is Onion Engine" "What, does it have layers?" "No, it makes you cry once you cut into it."
18:32 celeron55 well 8D was my reaction, but also yes that's a brand i use for various things. i wouldn't mind this engine/platform being named after that too
18:33 MTDiscord if 8 == D then print("I wish I was in Dixie") end
18:33 Desour GreenXenith: nice
18:33 celeron55 altough, the actual brand is 8Dromeda. 8D by itself is very much taken
18:33 MTDiscord Re: "onion engine", the tor project would like to [not] know your location.
18:34 celeron55 it would be 8Dromeda Engine or something in that case
18:35 MTDiscord Blo(r)cks "bugfixing is futile"
18:35 Desour we could also choose some cool/stupid name, like MandelTür
18:35 MTDiscord GameCube
18:35 celeron55 i like Blorcks
18:35 MTDiscord Blork?
18:35 MTDiscord Blorcks sounds a lot like the kind of sound effect you'd make the first time you open up lua_api.md.
18:35 Desour Blorks?
18:35 MTDiscord Blaks
18:36 celeron55 blorks is fine too. a bit less ridiculous for those who enjoy not being ridiculous (not me)
18:36 MTDiscord Blokes
18:36 MTDiscord Blauks
18:36 MTDiscord Vloxr
18:36 MTDiscord Since we can't agree on a single replacement name, maybe we should just generate a random one as part of the build scripts each time.
18:36 MTDiscord Vluax
18:36 Blockhead256[m] the blorg collective
18:36 celeron55 that's what firefox tried back in the day
18:36 celeron55 or, i mean mozilla
18:36 MTDiscord and I just tried to be ridiculous lol
18:36 celeron55 firefox was one of names
18:37 celeron55 then people stopped them from making up new names
18:37 MTDiscord MineWeasel
18:37 MTDiscord EMFMTG (Engine Made For Minetest Game)
18:37 MTDiscord I always thought that Minecraft had mining and crafting, but Minetest had digging and crafting instead of mining and testing. It should really have been called Digcraft.
18:37 MTDiscord That looks more like a curse word
18:37 celeron55 blorg sounds cool also
18:37 celeron55 blorg.org :D
18:37 celeron55 i need this
18:38 celeron55 it's taken though
18:38 MTDiscord "Eh, MFing MineTest Game" does sometimes sum up how I feel at times too, so I could get behind EMFMTG.
18:38 MTDiscord bl.org
18:38 Desour Di**craft
18:38 MTDiscord no
18:38 MTDiscord There's no way that bl.org isn't taken and I'm a tad scared to try to open that URL.
18:39 Blockhead256[m] that's where a WHOIS lookup can help
18:39 MTDiscord Let's find out
18:39 celeron55 minet.net is a bit like blorg.org
18:39 MTDiscord "Di**craft" but its pronounced "D. I. to the power of craft"
18:39 MTDiscord yeah lets use minet
18:39 MTDiscord inet
18:39 MTDiscord net
18:39 MTDiscord et
18:39 MTDiscord t
18:39 MTDiscord bl.org is a relic of the 90s
18:39 Desour mi.net
18:39 celeron55 minet.* is taken also though
18:40 MTDiscord If we use minet it'd be really lovely if we could somehow negotiate for mi.net, but I can't imagine we'd ever see the kind of money necessary to buy something that short.
18:40 MTDiscord minest
18:40 celeron55 you need a longer more obscure name for the domains to be available, like, let's say... minetest.* back in the day
18:40 MTDiscord mi.net isnt taken
18:40 celeron55 for sure it is
18:40 celeron55 there's just nothing there
18:41 MTDiscord ah then it could be bought perhaps
18:41 MTDiscord Don't confuse "not taken" as "the people who own it have not opted to run a web server on it"
18:41 MTDiscord and for something as short as mi.net, I have a hard time imagining a selling price under 5 figures USD.
18:42 Blockhead256[m] this is why weird 2LDs like .id.au are good for getting short names :)
18:42 Blockhead256[m] terrible for the brand probably though lul
18:42 MTDiscord Sometimes you'll find a short domain like that for like $50k or so, and sometimes it will be a few million, like if they know that somebody will really want it and nobody has a trademark case to just take it by force 😄
18:43 MTDiscord Hmm, let's call it "Minetrust" and then have constant debates about rewriting it in Rust, but never actually get around to starting on that.
18:43 MTDiscord qbuh
18:43 Desour btw. minete.st could exist. (.st is São Tomé and Príncipe)
18:43 Blockhead256[m] pfft trademark law
18:43 Blockhead256[m] good luck if the registrant is in somewhere like Russia
18:44 MTDiscord well if the domain authority isn't in russia...
18:44 Blockhead256[m] one of my favourite domains I recently saw was gg.gg (in a spam email)
18:44 MTDiscord fsh = formspec hell lol
18:45 MTDiscord Modding Hell
18:45 MTDiscord Hmm, let's see.. Lua is moon.. C++ is a terrifying monster... moon monster... wearwolf.. I don't know where I'm going with this
18:45 Desour C++ never renamed
18:46 MTDiscord Werewolf* warewolf*
18:46 Blockhead256[m] minetest.ru also exists - squatted/never used domain
18:46 MTDiscord If I owned gg.gg, I would totally have subdomains like gg.gg.gg.gg.gg and stuff.
18:46 Blockhead256[m] never renamed? What about C with classes?
18:46 Desour ok, right
18:46 MTDiscord Werewolves also fit with the idea that Minetest looks sorta normal from the outside but is terrifying on the inside
18:46 MTDiscord wherewolf ... wsorwolf ...
18:47 MTDiscord self-awarewolf
18:47 Desour ihmissusi?
18:48 MTDiscord hypervox
18:49 MTDiscord Ick, I don't want to see "hyper" in the name of an engine with gaussian curvature == 1
18:49 MTDiscord That's false advertising.
18:49 MTDiscord Hypovox
18:49 MTDiscord dypervox?
18:49 MTDiscord 😆
18:50 MTDiscord Hypvoxia
18:50 MTDiscord maybe instead of suggesting names it would be easier to vote for whose pet creates the new name by running over a keyboard
18:50 MTDiscord Can't be one of my cats. They have a tendency to either open devtools or just close the entire app.
18:51 MTDiscord Easier to run over a keyboard with my car
18:51 Blockhead256[m] disadvantages those who don't have pets
18:51 MTDiscord Even if you don't have a pet, you have a forehead.
18:51 MTDiscord Uncubate
18:51 MTDiscord just through your pet rock at the keyboard
18:51 Blockhead256[m] yhju
18:51 MTDiscord *throw
18:52 Blockhead256[m] the forehead hath spoken
18:52 MTDiscord Hypvoxia actually sounds like a real name I could imagine someone using, especially if they don't know what hypoxia means...
18:52 Desour FAQ: Q: Why is this project called hhhhhhhhhhhhhhfshhhhhhhhhhhhhs? A: We've used a cat to choose the name.
18:52 Blockhead256[m] I'm sure someone can figure out the right vowels to throw in there and make it a Finnish compound word
18:53 MTDiscord I like the fact that hhhhhhhhfshhhhhhhhhs tells me a lot about the kind of cat, i.e. one who was calm enough to actually sit down on some keys instead of just running across.
18:53 MTDiscord We should just have everyone post cat videos and then vote on cats.
18:53 Desour (sorry, this was just me, not an actual cat)
18:53 rubenwardy cats? wheres the cats?
18:54 Desour !cat
18:54 MinetestBot http://i.imgur.com/foNWNCA.jpg
18:54 MTDiscord (yes, I could tell it wasn't a real cat, and that fact alone is kind of bizarre now that I think about it)
18:54 potatoxel[m] meow
18:54 potatoxel[m] i wub blobcats
18:54 * potatoxel[m] uploaded an image: (44KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/FgVgtEaOneTGYABSdlXkebrc/meow_owo.png >
18:54 potatoxel[m] so pwetty
18:54 MTDiscord I'm scribbling on my android keyboard to see what it comes up with
18:55 MTDiscord "asdphniadsf" powered by cats on keyboards
18:56 Desour we could also just translate minetest to finnish, something like miinatesti
18:57 MTDiscord Instead of using the cats, name it cat
18:57 rubenwardy if you think about it, cat is the ideal program name
18:57 Desour or: minet-set, sounds like some set described by a french mathematician
18:57 Blockhead256[m] shame it's already taken
18:58 MTDiscord WorldCore
18:58 Desour miautest
18:58 MTDiscord Felen, Purcube, Meon, Nekube
18:59 MTDiscord kissa, cat in finnish
18:59 Desour or miautset / miau-z / meow-z
19:00 Blockhead256[m] meow-z would be the cat-anthropomorphic version of DayZ
19:00 MTDiscord imagines cats scaling a cat tree
19:02 Blockhead256[m] I like Nekube
19:02 Blockhead256[m] maybe that's a good idea for a cute game to publish onto ContentDB
19:02 Blockhead256[m] the characters woul be like the old nyan cat node
19:05 MTDiscord @Warr1024 nekocore
19:05 MTDiscord My brain parsers nodecore as no deco re
19:06 MTDiscord parses*
19:06 MTDiscord Heh, I've always wanted to use "Paamayim Nekodotayim" somewhere ::3
19:06 MTDiscord Cats like boxes, surely we can make something work here
19:07 muurkha *nekudotayim
19:07 MTDiscord Someone posted a ChatGPT thing in -dev where ChatGPT came up with a plausible but wrong explanation of what "nodebox" means, but it would have been funnier if it had said "it's a command line option that allows you to disable de-boxing"
19:07 MTDiscord Voxey 😼
19:07 MTDiscord muurkha: yes, thank you for explaining the joke.
19:08 Desour disable deboxing of cats
19:08 MTDiscord the real joke is the turbocat operator (::3)
19:08 muurkha I don't think it's possible in practice to rename minetest
19:09 muurkha I wasn't explaining it, I was just correcting your spelling
19:09 muurkha oh, now i see that the spelling error was itself a joke
19:09 muurkha sorry, it whooshed over my muurkha head
19:10 MTDiscord Does celeron55 have a cat
19:10 MTDiscord If so, whats its name
19:10 MTDiscord And can we use it as the engine name
19:10 MTDiscord Does celeron55 have a cat, and if not, can we earmark donations so that they have to be spent towards getting and maintaining a cat?
19:11 MTDiscord Minetest: $10/month hosting budget, $90/month mascot budget.
19:12 MTDiscord I have 3 cats and currently only one of them is serving mascot duty for Minetest content. 🤔
19:12 Desour ~~buy me a coffee~~ buy my cat some food
19:12 MTDiscord would also allow rubenwardy to sell cat stuff next to server licenses lol
19:12 Wuzzy I have to give credit where credit is due.
19:13 MTDiscord send pics
19:13 Desour Warr1024: I want to see the mascot
19:13 MTDiscord With how much we are bikeshedding this, Boxshed becomes ever more accurate
19:13 MTDiscord Blockshed perhaps
19:13 MTDiscord Blorgshed, even
19:14 Wuzzy Today, almost 5 years ago, nerzhul predicted Discord will still exist today. Well, I have to admit that nerzhul was right. XD
19:14 Desour no de-shed
19:14 MTDiscord Wuzzy: We're locked into the walled garden
19:14 MTDiscord (also alternatives aren't as good as they ought to be)
19:14 MTDiscord 3.2k trapped in the walled garden, oh no
19:14 MTDiscord Anyway
19:15 MTDiscord Messeshed
19:15 Wuzzy you mean YOU are locked in the walled garden. not me :P
19:15 Blockhead256[m] ^^ this IRC channel looks fine to me
19:15 MTDiscord Yes, we \ Wuzzy
19:15 MTDiscord we \ {Wuzzy}*
19:15 Desour I guess discord will now follow the social media life-cycle: be replaced by another proprietary service, loose all of its young-aged users, and slowly die
19:15 Desour just like it replaced whatsapp
19:15 MTDiscord mhm maybe
19:16 MTDiscord Who cares
19:16 Wuzzy is this another prediction?
19:16 Warr1024 "Locked inside the walled garden" and yet many of us can...
19:16 MTDiscord ...enter and leave freely 😄
19:16 muurkha whatsapp is still the most mainstream communications system here, Desour
19:16 MTDiscord Back to bikeshedding
19:16 muurkha lots of businesses only do business over whatsapp
19:16 muurkha lots of people can only be contacted over whatsapp
19:16 MTDiscord if this is a prediction, it hopefully be better than Minetest's node dig prediction
19:16 muurkha lots of groups only chat over whatsapp
19:17 Desour muurkha: yeah, but the young kids nowadays all use discord
19:17 muurkha no, young kids too
19:17 muurkha they might also use discord
19:17 Desour yes, another prediction. idk when it will be fulfilled though
19:17 Wuzzy well then i have nothing to put into my calender XD
19:17 Blockhead256[m] muurkha: what in tarnation? what's wrong with the conventional phone system? You try to run a business that's not selling nudes online in Australia without a phone number and you won't get far
19:17 muurkha but the programming and math classes my wife is currently taking are full of 18-year-olds and they are using whatsapp for the class group, not discord
19:18 MTDiscord Shed work well outside of being a joke, since Minetest is a room full of scrap and tools to tinker with
19:18 MTDiscord Works*
19:18 MTDiscord If you want a fun prediction, try to guess whether Discord usage will shift in age demographic and follow the cohort, or stick with the same demographic and find a new cohort.
19:18 muurkha telegram and signal are far behind
19:18 Wuzzy what was the command to show a message to a chatter who isnt here right now?
19:18 MTDiscord Command sent from Discord by Lars:
19:18 MTDiscord !talk
19:18 MTDiscord Command sent from Discord by Lars:
19:18 MTDiscord !tell*
19:18 MTDiscord (another display of IRC inferiority)
19:19 muurkha Blockhead256[m]: calling people on the phone costs money, and they won't answer because most phone calls are spam now
19:19 Desour coolness*
19:19 Blockhead256[m] WhatsApp is like a lingua franca for communication that is free unlike texting and supports multimedia
19:19 Blockhead256[m] that's the perspective I get of it
19:19 MTDiscord "Blockshed" also works well as a name for the engine in a "take it out behind the woodshed" kind of sense.
19:19 MTDiscord IRC is cosy as long as everyone is online
19:19 muurkha SMS also costs money and group SMSes don't work well
19:19 Wuzzy the actual lingua franca is e-mail because it is supported by literally everyone. everyone should *at least* have a functional e-mail adress. what comes on top is up to you. my opinion
19:20 muurkha and SMS doesn't support audio messages or give read notifications
19:20 MTDiscord mhm yes e-mail
19:20 Blockhead256[m] muurkha: so you exchange numbers.. heck, add contacts via whatsapp.. and so you see the name of the caller
19:20 Blockhead256[m] I don't leave my mobile data and wifi on all the time, I'm not going to get your whatsapp if you need to contact me urgently
19:20 muurkha you need a phone number for WhatsApp but you don't have to actually answer the phone
19:21 Wuzzy !tell nerzhul Almost 5 years ago, you've predicted that Discord will still exist today. Well, you were right, congratulations. XD (I still hate Discord XXXXD)
19:21 MinetestBot Wuzzy: I'll pass that on when nerzhul is around
19:21 Warr1024 Since getting TheLounge, and being able to self-host it, Discord really has very few tangible advantages over IRC. Having a built-in file upload thing that doesn't require me to configure my web server and manage file lifecycles would be nice, I guess, but it's not like I need to pay $5 a month for a bunch of custom emoji.
19:21 muurkha she says they do use discord sometimes to organize get-togethers, but WhatsApp is primary
19:21 rubenwardy nrz
19:21 muurkha she says WhatsApp is institutionalized here, which I think is correct
19:21 rubenwardy Wuzzy: nerzhil is nrz on IRC
19:21 MTDiscord Whomst givest a damn which platform anyone be inclined to utilize. Live and let live.
19:22 rubenwardy he appears to only be in #minetest-dev here
19:23 Desour GreenXenith: discord is closed though. I can't even read without registering. and there are tons of invitation links everwhere pushing people to using it
19:23 Desour +y*
19:23 muurkha a bigger deal than the cost of making a phone call is that if your phone is out of credit you can't make the phone call
19:23 MTDiscord The only truly universal chat platform I've ever seen is the "use a whole bunch of them so you have a better chance of finding one in common with somebody else" one.
19:23 MTDiscord So?
19:23 Blockhead256[m] the technical results of people using what works (and costs as little as possible, or provides as much convenience as possible) really are bizarre
19:23 Blockhead256[m] that's human nature for you
19:23 muurkha email is still pretty widely supported but I think people are a lot more likely to answer WhatsApp messages here
19:23 Peter_Lankton that was an interesting decision from whoever runs the voxelmanip dot se server. usually verification systems are meant to keep bots out. but that one seems to be designed to allow bots but keep humans out.
19:24 Desour it's like a religion that aggressively pushes you to follow their god and sacrifice your goods. I don't want to tolerate this. (religions that don't influence others don't have this issue though)
19:24 Warr1024 Desour: you can read and write Discord via the IRC bridges ... and the portions of the Discord community that are not bridged (which is really just posts, not really *people*) is stuff that IRC users have, to varying degrees of emphasis, historically not actually cared about :-D
19:24 rubenwardy Discord = cult confirmed?
19:25 muurkha Warr1024: could you maybe use an ssh master socket and an IRC client script to upload a file to your web server and post the URL to the channel with a single command?
19:25 MTDiscord Do you feel compelled to click every link you see? Why would a public invite link push anyone?
19:25 ROllerozxa Peter_Lankton: heh?
19:25 Peter_Lankton oh wait i just remembered who runs it. yeah i totally get it then. anyone who is willing to make a bot to auto pass that verification would be worthy to play.
19:26 muurkha Desour: "invitation links everywhere" depends on your environment; here there are WhatsApp links everywhere on people's web pages and stuff
19:26 Warr1024 murrkha: TheLounge supports file uploads natively; getting the files there is not really the issue. It's managing the cruft it creates ... and the fact that I remain responsible for hosting the file throughout its lifecycle, and that there's no automatic essentially-permanent mirror for it.
19:26 MTDiscord Putting IRC channel addresses everywhere doesn't pressure me into using IRC, same way a discord link isn't pressuring you
19:27 Blockhead256[m] so many youtubers have "their own" (Discord's) server nowadays
19:27 Blockhead256[m] it gives them another metric and a free source of ideas.. and is itself free
19:27 Blockhead256[m] the moderators will also do it for free
19:27 Warr1024 IIRC there are only a couple of places where the Minetest Discord is officially linked to, and we are not deceptive about what people are getting into with it, and we *really* only intend discord links to be used on an "if you already happen to be on Discord" basis anyway.
19:27 Peter_Lankton i guess its just funny really. that is an idea that i had for a fake joke captcha for a website designed to be annoying
19:27 Desour Warr1024: the non-bridged portions would traditionally be posted elsewhere, like in a mailing list.
19:27 ROllerozxa well, ever since the security question was put into place on my server there's been essentially no griefers, previously there would constantly be griefs whenever I joined it
19:27 Warr1024 Yes, the pushing of Discord in SOME communities is problematic, but at least hopefully I don't think that's us.
19:27 Blockhead256[m] but the pressure is there to join it because they will publish other links or files to that discord server
19:27 muurkha she says "The youth of nowadays don't even know about IRC", which I think is also true
19:27 MTDiscord We three thousand people over here enjoy the discord experience to a degree, and you are welcome to not join us
19:28 Desour and either there aren't that many bridges, or they are somewhere hidden, because I never see anyone posting a link to an alternative bridge
19:28 Warr1024 Desour: I'd actually be okay with the idea of posting the non-bridged portions elsewhere, myself, but Discord makes this possible but not easy, and nobody has jumped at the opportunity to do the work, or provide the necessary hosting, to make that happen.
19:28 muurkha Warr1024: maybe you could upload the file to a GitHub Gist if you want to not be responsible for hosting it?
19:28 Desour GreenXenith: the link would lead to more information and up-to-date info. this compels ppl to click it
19:29 Desour muurkha: everywhere on the web I mean. take minetest server descriptions, or github repo readmes as example
19:29 Blockhead256[m] the youth of today have to be taught what a file directory ("folder") is, because they just open files in Word/Google Docs and save them to the cloud..
19:29 MTDiscord Its a discord invite link, and should be clearly labeled as such. Its not a "click here for more info"
19:30 Peter_Lankton fair enough, but i imagine that keeps out lots of legit players too. but hey, if you dont mind having an empty server then thats fine. im starting to understand that perspective myself. i created a second server where the spawn has 2 doors. one is a one way iron door trap and the other is the correct door. the signs clearly state you should NOT go in the iron door. but most people who join do go in there.
19:31 Blockhead256[m] Need to install this mod
19:31 Blockhead256[m] https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=1145223801
19:31 ROllerozxa if someone isn't able to solve the question then it's not my issue, I don't really mind
19:31 MTDiscord The bots we use on Discord that are not 3rd-party are open-source, and anyone could send a PR if they think they have a good (or even just okay) solution to the "make discord conversations readable without having to use Discord" problem. Of course, you might need to have Discord to develop that solution, so that's not ideal, but I guess uninstalling is a thing too...
19:31 MTDiscord Discord is so high-volume, keeping historical data is both technically tedious and much of the time low-value. Not to mention discord messages are not immutable, making logs either outdated or in need of regular updating
19:31 muurkha she also points out that Discord provides voice chat as well as text chat, which is maybe a more popular alternative to Mumble, as well as filesharing [as Warr1024 points out]
19:31 ROllerozxa if you desperately want to get through then feeding it verbatim into wolfram alpha will get you the answer, even if you have no idea what a trigonometry is, but the same kids that hold down the mine button and then leave won't be able to do that
19:32 ROllerozxa so really, the question is way too easy, yet it's effective
19:32 Wuzzy I just find it fascinating how quick people in the FOSS community are to defend proprietary software just because that's what everyone else is using
19:32 Peter_Lankton yeah i totally get that. though it does make the idea of making a spam bot tempting. because bots could solve it and get in lol
19:33 MTDiscord tbh the mutability of Discord messages is something that I see as an annoyance ... Edits are okay, but having no audit trail aside from a select few is irritating. I suppose that Discord has to allow some "corrections" to the record that IRC doesn't because on IRC there is an assumption that what you say is more time-limited (even though, with public log bots, it's not really).
19:33 MTDiscord Wuzzy: we don't really care much about the proprietary software one way or the other. For us, it's just more about defending users and their choices.
19:34 muurkha Desour: that still depends on which part of the web you're reading; I don't see a lot of Discord links on the Argentine web
19:34 Desour (just to be clear, in minetest (excluding servers) the use of discord doesn't cause direct damage, as all relevant stuff is posted elsewhere, afaik. but it's causing indirect damage by increasing or not decreasing the number of discord users overall)
19:34 MTDiscord Discord users are sometimes characterized as "trash users" just because they're using "trash software" which is rather unfair. Also, for user choice to be meaningful, we have to allow users to sometimes make the wrong choices...
19:34 muurkha she says she thinks young people here are more likely to answer emails than old people because they have mail on their cellphones
19:34 Blockhead256[m] in the absence of an official discord, it would be unofficial, in which case moderation would be worse
19:35 Blockhead256[m] so a harm reduction policy for discord seems to be the best :P
19:35 MTDiscord The amount of Discord users has only increased and will likely continue to until either we (the administration) or Discord Inc. screws up massively
19:36 Peter_Lankton but i dont i will bother making one. already made one to print images on kim map per's canvas server lol. that was pretty funny.
19:36 Desour imho, people can be free of choice of the applications they use, as long as they don't negatively affect others with their actions too much. it's just like any other choices ppl can do
19:37 MTDiscord Us using Discord does not negatively affect you
19:37 MTDiscord This conversation is negatively affecting everyone
19:37 MTDiscord what is happening
19:37 MTDiscord Use your eyes
19:38 MTDiscord Anyway
19:38 muurkha Wuzzy: I'm not a fan of Discord [because, as you say, it's proprietary] but I think it's important to understand why other people do like Discord if we want to displace it
19:39 Desour GreenXenith: if your "Us" includes all discord users (which I was referring to), then you *are* negatively affecting me, e.g. by moving possibly interesting discussions to discord
19:39 MTDiscord I haven't checked the name thread yet, if Blockshed/Boxshed isn't on there yet it should be
19:39 MTDiscord Desour: There are possibly interesting discussions in many places on the internet that you will never see
19:40 muurkha if you institutionalize a proprietary software platform, the way we have with WhatsApp here, the users no longer have choices, so if you want to defend users and their choices you need to prevent that from happening
19:40 Desour yes, but most of them I can look up and read without giving some cooperation my private data
19:40 Peter_Lankton GASP i found a server with vore in it!!!! SOMEONE BAN IT!!!!
19:40 MTDiscord that's terrible! where?
19:41 Desour muurkha: exactly
19:41 Peter_Lankton address 'daconcepts dot com' port 37000 located at -193,77,-6205
19:41 Blockhead256[m] It's not as simple as to say that one's choice to use Discord doesn't affect others negatively
19:41 Blockhead256[m] you are simply viewing your right to choice as more important than community cohesion and principles of software freedom
19:41 Blockhead256[m] and taking the easy route of letting a corporation share your information with others, host your files, your screenshots
19:42 MTDiscord We make no effort to encourage using Discord, we only provide the doorway to enter. If people use Discord more its not because we tell them to, its because they already use Discord
19:43 MTDiscord I'll gladly sacrifice "cohesion" if the enforced platform is highly inconvenient
19:43 Desour a big colorful door can be seen as encouragement tough...
19:43 MTDiscord peter_lankton: checking it out right now so i can report it to the necessary authorities 🫡
19:43 Blockhead256[m] but as muurkha has said you need to understand why people make their choices and try to address that rather than tell them their choice is bad and they should feel bad
19:43 MTDiscord If you HAVE Discord, then come join OUR Discord. If you don't, I'd point people toward IRC first, and then maybe Matrix if they have the stomach for some of the technical issues 😄
19:43 muurkha Blockhead256[m]: I concur with your statement
19:44 Blockhead256[m] Personally Matrix is no less convenient to me than other platforms, but I'm not one of those people in two dozen discord servers who for the sake of ease of use, familiarity and wanting everything in one app, would rather just add another Discord server to their list
19:44 MTDiscord Whether people have discord or not is mostly pretty moot anyway, because there's a large community of Discord users who don't know what MT is, and a small community of MT users who wouldn't use Discord anyway.
19:44 MTDiscord Id gladly jump ship to another platform. If it had the conveniences necessary for hosting large communities. And if everyone else also jumped ship.
19:45 muurkha right, the "if everyone else" thing is how incumbents gain market power they can use to extract all the surplus value from the community
19:45 muurkha recently the term "enshittification" has come into vogue for describing this process
19:45 muurkha because of course you have to become the incumbent before you can start extracting monopoly rents
19:46 MTDiscord Ultimately I'd have a hard time leaving any platform behind; I tend to just accumulate them unless they go completely dead like AOL Instant Messenger or something, or literally everyone I know drops off them. I tend to go where people are, and unfortunately some are locked into certain choices to certain degrees for whatever reason.
19:46 MTDiscord Why would I use a platform with less users and less access to communicating with people?
19:46 MTDiscord Its not practical
19:47 muurkha right, nobody's self-interest is to sacrifice themself in order to unseat the incumbent
19:47 MTDiscord "market power" and "surplus value" is a pretty weirdly capitalistic way of thinking about people interacting with people and community building. I don't deny that that's a thing people are trying to do to us, but I don't think it's a thing we should jump on the bandwagon for.
19:47 muurkha that's how monopoly power survives
19:47 Desour Warr1024: I'd prefer a formulation like: "If you happen to have discord, you CAN join our discord thing.", as opposed to "oh you have discord? then use it! and join."
19:47 muurkha yes, Discord is a capitalist enterprise; I'm not saying we should copy them, but that we should understand their internal dynamics and motivational structure
19:48 muurkha which is Zero-to-One monopolist thinking
19:48 MTDiscord I understand their motivational structure every time I see the damn "super react" button 😏
19:49 MTDiscord "C'mon, it's ONLY like $5" as a business model 🙄
19:49 MTDiscord Desour: Where do you see us saying "use discord!"? The minetest website has a link and nothing more
19:49 muurkha (I don't know if they've taken Thiel's money, but his book expresses a zeitgeist that suffuses the venture capital world)
19:50 Peter_Lankton testplayer dont know what vore is lmao
19:50 MTDiscord I may use Discord, but I'm not going to pay them for the privilege of trying to lock me in, and I'm going to try to avoid wherever possible being part of the system that incentivizes paid use and further lock-in.
19:50 Desour GreenXenith: I was replying to "" If you HAVE Discord, then come join OUR Discord.
19:51 muurkha Warr1024: it's amusing that you posted that message on Discord ;)
19:51 muurkha anyway I see it via the MTDiscord bridge
19:51 MTDiscord When I said "HAVE Discord," I meant like "if you have it installed and running" and such. Like, if you technically have a discord account but haven't opened it up in months and weren't going to otherwise, no, don't bother, just try IRC or something else first. But I don't feel the need to spell that out because not doing something they wouldn't have done anyway is basically already the default for humans anyway.
19:52 Warr1024 I tend to have the Discord window on top more often because I'm actually responsible for moderating on Discord so I have to watch what happens there, whereas I don't have nearly as much duty on IRC.
19:53 Peter_Lankton anyway hopefully sfan5 or someone sees my report i made here. maybe i should email him. after all vore has no place in minetest. as i have learned lol.
19:53 MTDiscord It's all the same to me more or less. I'm just talking to people, and the furniture is just along for the ride.
19:53 Warr1024 Peter_Lankton: true dat. If you want vore, go play Yoshi's Island or something instead.
19:54 muurkha Warr1024: heh, you're subsidizing Discord's business model with your free labor ;)
19:55 MTDiscord ...which I mitigate by doing the most useless kind of labor possible, so it all works out 😆
19:55 ROllerozxa Warr1024: you're saying all yoshi fans are into vore? 🤔
19:56 MTDiscord I don't know one way or the other, I've just played the game and noticed things.
19:57 Wuzzy !tell nrzkt Almost 5 years ago, you've predicted that Discord will still exist today. Well, you were right, congratulations. XD (I still hate Discord XXXXD)
19:57 MinetestBot Wuzzy: I'll pass that on when nrzkt is around
19:57 Wuzzy !seen nrzkt
19:57 MinetestBot Wuzzy: nrzkt was last seen at 2020-04-27 16:46:18 UTC on #minetest-hub
19:57 Wuzzy !seen nrz
19:57 MinetestBot Wuzzy: Sorry, I haven't seen nrz around.
19:57 Wuzzy !seen nerzhul
19:57 MinetestBot Wuzzy: nerzhul was last seen at 2020-10-10 12:06:44 UTC on #minetest-hub
19:57 MTDiscord Try -dev
19:57 Desour !seen nrz-dev
19:57 MinetestBot Desour: Sorry, I haven't seen nrz-dev around.
19:57 MTDiscord 🙄
19:58 Desour (just wanted to try)
19:59 Blockhead256[m] my life for nerzhul!
20:04 Peter_Lankton vore may have no place in minetest, which is why i plan to make a fork of it lol
20:10 Peter_Lankton man the dragonfire client is awesome. i should make an auto building script for it.
20:46 muurkha you could call it voretst
20:47 Peter_Lankton heh, thats my plan. along with voretest_game. the default game which is just minetest_game with my vore blocks mod added to it. and it will have a special tab for my server. and a custom server list.
20:50 muurkha hooray for free software and perversion
20:51 MTDiscord New kinks with each release, for maximum perversion per version.
20:53 muurkha I note that there's a well-known free software source control system called Subversion but so far nobody has been so bold as to name one "Perversion"
20:53 Peter_Lankton Warr1024 heh i like that pun.
20:55 Peter_Lankton i suppose my fork is a sort of courtesy. if the pervs use it, they are kept away from minetest. and since it has a different server list, they wont discover those servers.
20:56 muurkha the British National Corpus also suggests: version versions conversion diversion inversion conversions reversion aversion diversions seroconversion inversions diversionary reversionary reversions introversion extroversion aversions reconversion versioned seroconversions reversioner interconversions
20:57 muurkha according to curl http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/wordlist | grep -i version | awk '{print $2}' | grep -Ev 'subversion|perversion' | fmt -2222
21:01 MTDiscord If you create a subversion of the system, you subvert it. If you create a new version of Minetest, you vert it.
21:02 muurkha we should switch from "forking" to "verting"
21:03 muurkha if you use GitHub, does that imply that you're a git?
21:03 potatoxel[m] a place for horrible people to meet
21:03 potatoxel[m] :
21:03 potatoxel[m] :3
21:04 Desour if you're a git, anything implies that you're a git
21:13 MTDiscord If I were to pick a Finnish word to name this project, I might wsnt to use a less common not directly translatable almost poetic word like Kaivanto. To understand the word you can't really use a translator. Running the Finnish Wikipedia article through Google Translate might give a good idea
21:14 muurkha That sounds cool
21:15 MTDiscord Kaivanto is like a delicate hole in the ground made for a purpose, or something like that
21:15 muurkha having an obviously Finnish name would also help stave off the "Minetest is hosted on GitHub so it's a US project" people
21:16 MTDiscord Suggest that, sounds like a great name
21:16 MTDiscord The idea of open source being tethered to national/geopolitical identities seems kind of weird to me.
21:17 muurkha we had someone suggest that in here a few weeks ago
21:17 MTDiscord Like, an open source project can be a "USA thing" basically until you get your first non-USA contributor, and then it'll never really be entirely murrican anymore.
21:17 muurkha but I don't think renaming the project is possible in practice
21:17 MTDiscord I already renamed it to "minetest" (prounounced "min-eh-test")
21:18 MTDiscord Minetest is the "you can get it any color as long as it's black" of project names.
21:19 Peter_Lankton Warr1024 i think thats how some TTS voices say it lol
21:19 muurkha only people who are deeply involved in it will realize it's been renamed
21:19 muurkha the larger public will just think it's disappeared
21:20 muurkha in Spanish I pronounce it "meenaytest"
21:22 muurkha that way people know how to spell it
21:22 MTDiscord That's at least close to the finnish pronounciation so welcome on board
21:23 muurkha :D
21:23 MTDiscord I don't think the "larger public" knows about minetest
21:23 muurkha I assumed people in Finland just pronounced it as English, since it's a compound of two loanwords
21:23 muurkha well, there's different scales
21:24 muurkha there's maybe 50 people in the credits; they form the Seventh Circle
21:24 MTDiscord Yeah, English vowels require all this analysis to figure out how you're supposed to actually pronounce them (ironic, considering that so many vowels in English just map to the schwa sound anyway) ... most other languages IIRC tend to have more regular pronunciation of vowels. An "e" just tends to sound like an "e" wherever you see one...
21:24 muurkha the 150 or 300 people in this channel are the Sixth Circle
21:24 muurkha the 3000 people or however many are on the forums are the Fifth circle
21:24 Peter_Lankton i think making minetest chea- uh i mean, minetest "utility" mods is my new interest now. just made a nuker. glad to see it doesnt work in minetest_game though. MTG seems to limit how fast nodes can be diged.
21:24 MTDiscord The public that knows minetest is larger than some publics but smaller than most.
21:25 muurkha people who play regularly but don't use the forums are the Fourth Circle; about 1% of Debian installs have Minetest installed: https://popcon.debian.org/stable/main/by_inst
21:26 muurkha maybe that's 100000 people?
21:26 muurkha and then there are people who recognize the name "Minetest" and might start playing it sometime, which is maybe 1-10 million people, the Third Circle
21:27 muurkha then you have the Second Circle, people who have computers Minetest could run on, and the First Circle, all humans who could conceivably play it if they had a computer
21:27 MTDiscord I think worldwide the amount of people that know minetest by the name minetest is probably about a million. Add some millions if you want to count those who knew for a minute but forgot
21:27 muurkha I think a name change will reach out to the Fourth Circle
21:27 MTDiscord The people who know it by some other name are more numerous than that
21:28 muurkha haha, because of shitty app store people?
21:28 MTDiscord Yes
21:28 Steve_Head yeah most people know it as multicraft. in my experience as a server owner at least. most people seem to join using it.
21:28 muurkha likely. what's the repackaging with the largest number of installs?
21:29 MTDiscord Well it can't be anything other than Multicraft
21:29 MTDiscord