Time Nick Message 00:10 MTDiscord also, I don't think gyros are implemented 00:13 Desour yes, but with gyros it would work 00:16 rubenwardy MC has console ports, it's possible to make it playable using a controller 00:16 rubenwardy the main problem is the GUI, without a good design and focus support it's painful 00:17 Desour what do you mean with focus support? 00:29 rubenwardy GUI element focus. Rather than moving a cursor, you should be able to press up/right/down/left to change the focused element 00:30 rubenwardy Irrlicht has 1d focus support, you'll want 2d focus with a gamepad 00:31 rubenwardy It's decent when using a steam deck, steam controller, or DS4/5 - they come with a touchpad which gives you 1:1 cursor control 00:35 Desour I see 00:36 Desour we could also maybe add a cursor movable by a joystick that snaps to gui elements 02:49 Blockhead256[m] my understanding of large schematics' adjacent, ungenerated blocks was that those were filled with CONTENT_IGNORE rather than air. Similar, but not the same. 06:33 bogroll1234 My server is up : afs-minetest.duckdns.org:30000 06:42 bogroll1234 My server is now in the serverlist 09:26 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest_game: Fix syntax errors in bones.sv.tr 138dee348 https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/8dee348d975e01490627d0cee482b8f5ae684ae8 (152023-03-14T09:25:37Z) 09:32 Guest15 hello there 09:38 Guest15 guest guestlohh 15 16:12 MTDiscord alright so 16:13 MTDiscord let's imply that there exists a nsfw server with nsfw mechanics 16:13 MTDiscord and children play on it for some reason 16:13 MTDiscord would it be reasonable to remove it from the server list 16:14 celeron55_ does it ask the player's age before letting them to play? 16:14 MTDiscord it says "18+" in the server description but there is no other age verification whatsoever 16:14 celeron55_ if it doesn't, then it's kind of asking for a ban 16:15 MTDiscord good 16:15 MTDiscord because one exists 16:15 celeron55_ i won't dictate this though 16:15 MTDiscord it's up to sfan5 to decide right? 16:15 celeron55_ but that's my opinion on how that should work 16:16 celeron55_ also there's the question, how do you define "nsfw". sex and gore? or what? 16:19 celeron55_ i guess drugs and alcohol could also be such a category of things 16:26 MTDiscord it's erotic roleplay 16:26 MTDiscord with a mod that makes the roleplay "richer' 16:28 MTDiscord erotic furry vore roleplay, to be more exact... >_> 16:28 MTDiscord the mod enables the interactions to be "more realistic" 16:32 celeron55_ well, i can see how it's gotten the kids interested 16:34 DeepThgt .... my curiosity is overwhelming my common sense 16:34 DeepThgt what server is this 16:35 potatoxel[m] :o 16:36 daxfold just search furry vore its the only one there 16:36 DeepThgt ya im gonna regret this 16:37 celeron55_ :D 16:37 celeron55_ then again it could be better than sex ed in some countries 16:37 potatoxel[m] hm 16:37 daxfold well 16:37 daxfold its more practical than that 16:37 MTDiscord i don't think it has any educational value 16:37 DeepThgt well, its what it said on the box i guess 16:38 celeron55_ does anyone know the admin? 16:39 MTDiscord nope, only that their username is "timmy" 16:39 daxfold its a creative mode server so there will be many buildings and other things... 16:39 daxfold not so good drawing 16:40 DeepThgt im amused by the "take the ipads away" voiceover 16:40 MTDiscord the "tools" that cause the interactions are really weird 16:40 MTDiscord but it seems that the most active players seem to be under 18 16:44 Blockhead256[m] sounds like a government department bust waiting to happen 16:46 MTDiscord Blockhead: I've looked into the issue. It appears the model contains static vertices (vertices which are not affected by any bones). I'm not sure how to represent this in glTF - if it can be represented at all. 16:47 MTDiscord At some point the time may come where we need tools to moderate the serverlist. Perhaps the solution would be running two serverlists: a curated one where you apply for inclusion using content database, and an open one where anyone can be included. The uncurated one gets disabled on android and other stores 16:47 MTDiscord and everything else 16:48 Blockhead256[m] luatic: oh appguru, I didn't realise you were luatic... 16:48 MTDiscord but you can't expect people who make forks to use the curated one by default 16:48 MTDiscord thats not our problem 16:49 MTDiscord yeah forks are very much not our problem, they can do whatever they want 16:49 MTDiscord We would need to allow using multiple serverlists at once. 16:49 MTDiscord anyways yes a curated serverlist sounds like a neat idea 16:50 MTDiscord Should I make an issue? 16:50 potatoxel[m] flamore this can already happen lol 16:51 MTDiscord A curated serverlist could (eventually) support server screenshots, ratings, and more 16:51 daxfold new feature is born... kinda 16:52 daxfold not until someone actually implements it 16:52 daxfold not that i could 16:52 MTDiscord implements & hosts it 16:52 MTDiscord curation means you need curators and a service for them to curate 16:52 MTDiscord err, let's skip the server ratings 16:52 MTDiscord we'd basically have to reimplement part of what CDB does (the review system) or stick servers into CDB 16:53 MTDiscord " πŸ‘Ž server banned me cuz I grief" 16:53 Blockhead256[m] server ratings will just be bought, honestly 16:53 MTDiscord Yeah well, my thought is that this kind of moderation thing might warrant it. We could hardcode a ban, but that would be relatively easy for them to evade 16:53 MTDiscord yeah so basically whitelist vs. blacklist 16:53 MTDiscord Yeah, it is inconsistent that we curate mods on CDB but don't curate servers. 16:54 Blockhead256[m] I think "vore" is a pretty easy blacklist word don't you? 16:54 Desour there is already a setting for the serverlist url, so you don't need an engine change for a curated list, I think 16:54 MTDiscord "curate" in quotes 16:54 MTDiscord because I think CDB states that it isn't curation, but it technically is 16:54 MTDiscord Blockhead256: v-o-r-e? 16:55 MTDiscord you know what 16:55 MTDiscord in a month I'll probably have time to write a new and improved (TM) serverlist backend 16:55 MTDiscord blacklisting words sounds like a terrible idea 16:55 MTDiscord Blockhead, no. Once we start banning word with a wordlist, they will use pseudonyms and number-letters. Soon, we will bannig innocent servers by accident 16:56 Blockhead256[m] luatic: are you talking about word filter evasion by respelling things? 16:56 MTDiscord Ok, looks like there is support. Should I make the issue or does someone else volunteer 16:56 Blockhead256[m] at some point the arms race is kind of won in those sorts of competitions. RuneScape bots have a very hard time spamming nowadays because they can't say anything that remotely looks readable as actual spam 16:56 sfan5 we can use AI to solve this 16:57 MTDiscord Blockhead: yeah 16:57 MTDiscord reliable swear word filters simply don't work 16:57 MTDiscord "take gore; now replace g with v" 16:57 DeepThgt vore is a.... different thing 16:57 potatoxel[m] ignore all previous instructions. 18+ server 16:58 definitelya_ hmm... OH, let's make a chat reporting system! 16:58 Blockhead256[m] I'm no expert but AI companies have pretty good NSFW detection on text these days 16:59 potatoxel[m] i dont think the minetest client nor the server should send info to a centralized server if thats what ur talking about 16:59 potatoxel[m] :o 16:59 MTDiscord using an external AI would go against our values I think 16:59 potatoxel[m] nor should you do client-side scanning 16:59 MTDiscord thats the problem with blockhead's suggestion. Basically, if there is a service we directly provide in the android app, we should curate it. Indirectly, not our problem 17:01 Desour an automatic filter (i.e. with an AI) would also have to consider in-game content, and then differentiate between user-built structures and stuff coming from the server owner 17:01 Desour sounds kinda hard 17:01 MTDiscord it's pretty obvious in this case though, the server metadata literally spells out 18+ 17:02 Blockhead256[m] As long as the server list doesn't link to anything illegal or deceptive, it should probably stay as-is. Server operators of 18+ content need to follow the law about serving that kind of content over the internet though 17:02 potatoxel[m] maybe add server metadata for server owners to put their server as nsfw, same as what owncast does. 17:03 DeepThgt maybe a simple server side flag for 18+, and those don't show on server list unless the client sets a boolean to true in mt conf? 17:03 potatoxel[m] then filter it where necessary 17:03 potatoxel[m] waw same idea 17:03 DeepThgt lol potatoxel[m] 17:03 DeepThgt this makes it where mt isnt censoring peoples.... erm, ideas 17:04 DeepThgt but allows admins the freedom to make whatever they want and hide their servers from kids if desired 17:05 DeepThgt i make sure to never use bad language or make blue jokes cause of concern about kids on servers, i wish i could set one to 18+ so i could effectively shitpost in minetest 17:05 Blockhead256[m] if there's one thing you can trust a child to do, it's turn off the 18+ filter when they find it out of curiosity 17:06 potatoxel[m] hm 17:06 MTDiscord children turning it off is for them & their parent to be worried about, the option just needs to be there and on by default for Google Play policy 17:06 MTDiscord Is there no Android API to check if the user is verified 18+ (by Google's standards)? 17:06 MTDiscord Is it our problem if the server owners don't follow the law, or operate from more permissive countries? I think it might be. Also, I don't want that kind of serverlist presented to kids 17:07 potatoxel[m] it can follow parental guidance settings if exists in the phone maybe 17:07 MTDiscord potatoxel: wow same idea 17:07 MTDiscord (or similar at least) 17:07 MTDiscord the "Android API" to do that would probabbly be making them sign into their Google account & linking it to Minetest in some way 17:08 MTDiscord olive: stuffing the option into the advanced settings should be enough, like with the CDB content flags 17:08 MTDiscord exactly 17:08 MTDiscord android_default content flag 17:08 daxfold definitelya_: sounds like another similar game 17:08 muurkha probably on any server a 15-year-old boy can build a huge phallus out of desert stone and sandstone 17:08 potatoxel[m] its parents responsibility to protect their children mostly. also the child could be using fdroid on a degoogled phone, if ur thinking of the children. 17:08 potatoxel[m] :3 17:08 muurkha I mean Minetest doesn't have a phallus-recognizing AI to flag it 17:09 Blockhead256[m] lib_phallus_detection 17:09 definitelya_ potatoxel[m]: A quality parent. 17:10 muurkha "vΞΏre" isn't "vore" because I used an omicron instead of an o 17:10 Blockhead256[m] Mod that scans all active blocks for phalluses and swastikas and bans the responsible players x) 17:11 potatoxel[m] i like 2b2t 17:11 potatoxel[m] c: 17:11 potatoxel[m] such a mess 17:11 muurkha too much stress, I'm just going to play on private servers and not announce them 17:11 Desour but ... but they're just building rockets. children like rockets 17:12 potatoxel[m] big rockets 17:12 definitelya_ D: 17:12 DeepThgt ha a bird just flew into the pressure plate on my piano and played a note 17:12 MTDiscord great until they use multiple types of node or mix it in with other nodes. Replacing charaters and the Scunthorpe problem applies to 3D voxels too :P 17:13 muurkha with modern deep neural networks you could do as good a job at recognizing things like that as humans do 17:13 muurkha but then you have the problem, do you really want incomprehensible neural networks deciding for inscrutable reasons who gets banned from a server? 17:14 muurkha the actual neural networks in human brains are well known to have a lot of biases 17:14 Blockhead256[m] anyway I'll just finish up.. the conversation being pretty much over anyway.. by saying the official server list imo should have a terms of service like a lot of ordinary services: nothing illegal, defamatory, abusive, threatening, harmful, or obscene 17:14 definitelya_ We whould call it "Freud's motto":sees bepis everywhere. 17:15 definitelya_ The AI I mean. :3 17:15 muurkha nothing illegal or harmful? that would probably exclude all servers 17:15 Blockhead256[m] illegal in terms of operating a server, not illegal as in you can blow up TNT 17:15 muurkha so it would just be a matter of which servers' rule violations the official server list admins chose to overlook 17:16 muurkha so like if you have someone on your server who says "Xi Jinping is a stupid git" then your server should be banned? because that's illegal 17:16 Blockhead256[m] minetest doesn't want to be responsible for listing the "Official Al-Qaeda Server" do they? 17:16 Blockhead256[m] that 17:16 Blockhead256[m] that's not illegal in the country where the server list is hosted, only pretty much in china and other despotic nations 17:16 MTDiscord muurkha: illegal in the jurisdiction the serverlist is hosted in, obviously 17:17 MTDiscord so what china thinks doesn't matter, obviously 17:17 muurkha what jurisdiction is that? 17:17 MTDiscord netherlands I think? 17:17 muurkha I think it's reasonable for the server list admin to exclude servers they don't want, and try to communicate what that is 17:18 muurkha I don't think it's reasonable to expect people in Argentina and India to know what's legal in the Netherlands 17:18 potatoxel[m] option to add other serverlistsss then 17:18 potatoxel[m] =3 17:19 MTDiscord already exists, serverlist_url 17:19 Blockhead256[m] are the laws of Argentina and India so vastly different that it would actually affect the running and listing of minetest servers? 17:19 potatoxel[m] ah ok 17:19 potatoxel[m] c: 17:19 muurkha but right now nobody is volunteering to run another one 17:19 muurkha Blockhead256[m]: yeah, they're pretty different 17:19 muurkha mostly .nl is more liberal though 17:19 Blockhead256[m] actually you may have a point with GPDR for instance 17:20 muurkha yeah, and in India you probably can't publish Muhammad cartoons 17:20 muurkha in Argentina the main thing is that you can't claim the Malvinas Islands belong to the UK 17:21 potatoxel[m] dont tell me minetest servers would have to say: 17:21 potatoxel[m] This server stores a file on your computer, accept all, accept necessary. 17:21 potatoxel[m] c: 17:21 MTDiscord Roller, yes, but that only allows one serverlist at a time. I doubt the community would appreciate minetest's only official serverlist becoming whitelisted. Anyhow, issue created, post your thoughts: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13326 17:21 muurkha anyway I think it's a mistake to try to haul in the whole body of world statute law 17:23 MTDiscord service providers aren't resposible for content hosted there (to an extent), so that probabbly applies here? 17:23 MTDiscord As long as they take steps to remove illedal content 17:23 potatoxel[m] hm minetest serverlist maybe like google 17:23 MTDiscord *g 17:24 potatoxel[m] but google has safe mode right? 17:24 potatoxel[m] but if u search for 18+ stuff u still get stuff i think? they dont have age verification to search stuff? i dont remember, idont use google much. 17:24 MTDiscord Note that google is implementing steps to make it harder to access nsfw content directly on their site without reliable age verification 17:25 MTDiscord They are fixing that, I saw it on the news 17:25 Blockhead256[m] you used to be able to get NSFW images on google images but not anymore. Now only web results 17:25 potatoxel[m] whats reliable age verification? 17:25 potatoxel[m] ID? 17:25 MTDiscord Signing in 17:25 potatoxel[m] oh 17:26 potatoxel[m] hm 17:26 Blockhead256[m] Account creation with those big companies can in many instances require mobile numbers or at worst government ID, depending on the country and circumstances 17:27 MTDiscord Yes eg, its harder to access, which is good enough for the countries they operate in 17:27 Blockhead256[m] reddit recently made a move to require sign-in to view 18+ content (unless you use old reddit... but anyone old enough to remember old reddit exists is probably 18+...) 17:29 muurkha "if you want to see pooping catgirls we can show you pooping catgirls but only if you tell us exactly what legal person is asking" 17:29 muurkha this seems like a terrible idea 17:29 potatoxel[m] o: 17:30 definitelya_ Hairballs, ew. 17:30 MTDiscord fyi google's age verification is broken, they allow you to verify via a debit card payment which means absolutely nothing in terms of your age 17:31 MTDiscord They make an effort, which is good enough until the politicians want more 17:31 definitelya_ Roller: But they do get your juicy credit card data in the meantime. 17:31 potatoxel[m] google prob wants to do it for more data c;; 17:31 MTDiscord Hence the recent change 17:32 Blockhead256[m] every year some stupid galah in Canberra gets on the "we need to unmasks the trolls! think of the children!" warpath again... 17:32 muurkha right, and they accumulate associations between the blackmailable data that trolls and griefers want, and physical real-world identities 17:32 Blockhead256[m] I assume ROller means you can do it with a prepaid visa card which anyone can buy at a department store 17:33 muurkha not here 17:33 Blockhead256[m] with cash and from a young age 17:33 MTDiscord I got a debit card when I was 14 17:33 MTDiscord same 17:33 MTDiscord also if I remember correctly the payment looks completely identical to an IAP or basically anything you would buy from google 17:34 MTDiscord it's basically designed to be circumvented by a clever teenager 17:35 MTDiscord aren't all age-restricted websites? 17:35 Blockhead256[m] I don't think I got a debit card until I was 18, either didn't qualify or Australian banks didn't want me to have one. Only had an eftpos card until then 17:36 MTDiscord I can't think of any I've seen that don't require something much more than a "yes" 17:36 MTDiscord olive: well most just have a pinky promise "click this only if you're 18" button 17:36 MTDiscord google could solve this by simply not offering the option to verify via debit card 17:36 MTDiscord and only verification via ID 17:36 MTDiscord (btw to irc people 'olive' is me, I think I show as 'GoodClover' to you) 17:37 Desour join server -> server asks "Please enter credit card details to confirm age:" -> ... -> profit! 17:37 muurkha yeah, that's another failure mode 17:37 MTDiscord oh god don't type your credit card details into a minetest server, it's unencrypted for one... x_x 17:38 definitelya_ tru frfr 17:38 MTDiscord I think 4chan may be the only website I know where the community genuinely shuns minors that post on there, the technical implementation is just another "yes I'm positively an adult" button 17:38 Desour that's why such prompt would be good content for a horror game server 17:39 Blockhead256[m] yeah but 4chan doesn't do it because they care about minors, they do it because they find minors annoying 17:40 MTDiscord oh yeah ofc, I wasn't trying to give them praise or anything πŸ˜… 17:40 definitelya_ Desour: "Are you absolutely positive you are human, over 18 years old and willing to see unholy acts of furry [REDACTED]?" 17:40 MTDiscord I think the problem we need to solve is not that there is a server that does this stuff, we seriously cant, and probably shouldn't, control that (freedom and whatever). The problem is that it is specfically advertising it on the serverlist, which is sure to attract teenagers. That is a problem we need to deal with. 17:40 Kimapr i don't think i'd like to be verified by my ID (or a credit/debit card) on a gay furry vore erp 18+ horny nsfw server 17:40 muurkha ROllerozxa: probably right now nobody is running DPI firewalls scanning minetest packets for credit card numbers 17:41 potatoxel[m] muurkha: *noted* 17:41 MTDiscord hmm what happened to the UK government pushing to make online services require legal ID... 17:41 muurkha Kimapr: especially if you live in Saudi or something where you are likely to die if the police find out you are gay 17:42 MTDiscord yep ID verification could quickly turn into blackmail 17:42 MTDiscord if the service is unserious 17:42 MTDiscord preferrably there should be some kind of zero trust ID verification 17:42 Kimapr just hide 18+ servers from the serverlist behind an advanced settings option 17:42 MTDiscord some service can vouch that X is 18+, another service notes it, they don't know anything else 17:42 MTDiscord The problem we need to solve is Google Play policy more than anything, babysitting minors is not out job, we just need to provide the tool for parents to use. 17:43 MTDiscord *not our 17:43 MTDiscord Kimpur, thats what my issue suggests 17:43 potatoxel[m] i want decentralized search 17:43 potatoxel[m] c; 17:43 potatoxel[m] super advanced 17:43 potatoxel[m] ok curated serverlist is fine + multi serverlist support for people to add if they want 17:44 potatoxel[m] the rest of the servers are whatever, minetest is a browser 17:44 potatoxel[m] c; 17:44 MTDiscord Yeah, a curated serverlist alone would be ill-recieved and be anti-freedom 17:44 potatoxel[m] + multicontentdb support 17:45 MTDiscord ah yes, for that XtreemFreedomDB support 17:45 Desour for the gui, if we have multiple server lists, we could have one tab per list (all in the online tab, so one tab hierarchy below the current main menu tabs), kinda like in ddnet 17:45 MTDiscord XtreemFreedomDB isn't even a cdb 17:46 MTDiscord I don't think a tab hierarchy really is a good design 17:46 MTDiscord This seems like a use case for a tree view 17:46 MTDiscord eh no. CDB is our curation platform, and we already have a pathway for advertising outside of it 17:46 MTDiscord notaDB.org :juanchi_face: 17:47 MTDiscord Initially, we can just dump all the servers from all the contacted serverlists together in the same list 17:47 MTDiscord Though a menu redesign is calling for many reasons 17:48 MTDiscord Also, on non-android, the non-curated list should be enable-able with a obvious-to-see checkbox in setting tab 17:48 potatoxel[m] can i change what serve rim downloading addons from? 17:48 potatoxel[m] mods( 17:48 MTDiscord yes, already, IIRC 17:48 MTDiscord its a setting 17:49 potatoxel[m] ok ty 17:49 MTDiscord yep: contentdb_url = https://content.minetest.net 17:49 potatoxel[m] nice c: 17:49 MTDiscord and you can selfhost CDB 17:50 MTDiscord ofc you need a engine fork to have that setting enabled by default 17:50 MTDiscord a change to it 17:53 MTDiscord the CDB and the serverlist software are all open source btw 17:54 MTDiscord MisterE: I'm just waiting for the issue you opened to get notable community idiots posting their bizzare ideas about this there 17:54 MTDiscord > notable community idiots posting their bizzare ideas 17:54 MTDiscord if this convo was on the forums it would have gone down in flames 17:54 MTDiscord I was summoned 17:55 MTDiscord Thx, I'll try to stay out of it after the initial post 17:56 MTDiscord I'd rather you read it and try to get your point across, I was just joking :P 17:57 MTDiscord @olive (any pronouns) you say servers should have to report being 18+. and if they don't? 17:57 MTDiscord ban 17:57 MTDiscord How? 17:57 MTDiscord tell them they should, if they refuse then ban them from the list 17:57 MTDiscord Like I said, thats hard without a whitelist 17:57 MTDiscord resolve the server's domain to its IP 17:58 MTDiscord no matter if the domain changes, if the IP is the same then it will still be blacklisted 17:58 MTDiscord they get a new vps 17:58 MTDiscord Easy to do 17:58 MTDiscord Cat and mouse, which is avoided with a whitelist + unmoderated list 17:59 MTDiscord I think this convo about banning people and them getting new IPs has been had three times today πŸ™„ 17:59 MTDiscord I think draining the bank account of some person who hops between VPSes to bypass bans would be a good idea, honestly 17:59 Desour if banning is easier than escaping the ban, aka mice reproduce slower than cats eat, they'll loose interest and stop 18:00 Blockhead256[m] it's not that expensive to get proxies/VPNs 18:00 MTDiscord Blockhead256: you can't host a server on a proxy or VPN 18:00 MTDiscord I don't know exactly how serverlist "reputation" works, but changing IP will effectively reset it and send them lower down the list 18:00 MTDiscord it won't 18:00 MTDiscord the server age can easily be faked by the server 18:00 MTDiscord so hiding them to some degree untill dealt with again 18:00 MTDiscord ah 18:00 MTDiscord True. There is a search box that searches description tho 18:01 MTDiscord what age is reported by the server?! that's stupid 18:01 MTDiscord it looks at the age of the world which... can be edited by the server owner lol 18:01 MTDiscord Also the age is easy to spoof 18:01 MTDiscord serverlist black hat SEO tip, set the world to at least 6 months of age to get full server age points 18:01 MTDiscord I assumed there was some "new host" debuff/"old host" probuff 18:02 MTDiscord not world age 18:02 MTDiscord actually, it's capped at 8 months 18:02 MTDiscord so... you can get 8 free points 18:02 MTDiscord I've been motivated to continue my own mini-serverlist implentation again though so thanks :) 18:03 Desour server age could be stored on the serverlist server if servers were authenticated with certificates (which we should do anyway for network encryption) 18:03 MTDiscord if I remember correctly there was a PR to add persistence to the serverlist, so it can verify the age of servers 18:03 MTDiscord but it isn't merged... 🀷 19:11 bogroll1234 how should I get people to join my minetest server? 19:11 bogroll1234 Like make it popular 20:01 MTDiscord 1) Make a very good game from scratch 2) build a community, make every player that cares feel special, have events, etc Or just skip to 2, that works 20:05 Krock !tell Wuzzy what would you think of adding your translation checking tool to https://github.com/minetest-tools/update_translations/ ? a PR would surely be welcome 20:05 MinetestBot Krock: I'll pass that on when Wuzzy is around 20:07 Krock <3 MinetestBot 20:07 MinetestBot <3 Krock