Time Nick Message 01:48 MTDiscord I think there already is a tides mod 08:53 sfan5 paradust: no 17:08 kabou sfan5 have you seen my updates after your review of #13168 ? 17:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/13168 -- Improve the documentation for chat command definition in lua_api.txt. by kab0u 17:09 sfan5 not yet 17:09 kabou oh okay 17:59 lissobone Hello. 18:02 lissobone Hello too. 18:03 MTDiscord Is there something wrong with the forum? Doesn't respond at all 18:03 lissobone In what sense "respond"? 18:03 ROllerozxa forum is just dying as usual 18:03 lissobone Yeah. 18:04 MTDiscord Repsond as in "I request a URL and nothing happens" 18:06 ROllerozxa celeron55 "fixed" the server a week or so ago which has just made it worse somehow 18:06 MTDiscord May I ask, who hosts the forum and what do we have to do to get a forum that does what it's meant to do? Is it a question of money, expertise, time? Do we need to an assassin to transfer ownership? 18:06 lissobone According to my calculations and estimations (the same ones that approximated GNU GPLv4 release to be in 2026.1), the forum will have persisted on serving its respectable hackers by 2023-02-25T05:02+09:00 (KST). 18:07 ROllerozxa well, it has a higher chance of responding relatively quickly now, but it's not particularly large of an improvement 18:08 MTDiscord This is just expected behavior 18:08 MTDiscord How can we make it that we see larger improvements? The current owner cannot be happy with the state it's in? 18:08 lissobone Note: I am not responsible for any damages, nuclear holocausts and Pestilences caused by imprecise calculations. 18:08 lissobone Larger improvements? 18:09 DeepT its responsive enough at this second 18:09 lissobone Hosting requires cash for maintenance and even more cash for hardware upgrades. 18:09 lissobone Time is money. 18:09 MTDiscord Ok, so its a question of money? 18:09 DeepT most things are 18:09 DeepT :P 18:09 lissobone Not only money... 18:10 lissobone Magnetic fields. 18:10 MTDiscord No, this very specific problem: Can it be solved with money? 18:10 ROllerozxa c55 already gets donations for covering server costs 18:10 MTDiscord @celeron55 ... 18:10 MTDiscord So money is available. What's the holdup then? Time? Expertise? 18:11 lissobone Well, if each minetest player donates one dollar, c55 will be able to cover all hosting costs. 18:11 ROllerozxa it's just something about the server that makes it godawful slow, I'm almost certain it doesn't have to do with the specs, the donation money should pay for something way better than the current state of it 18:12 MTDiscord So it's a question of expertise? The current admin doesn't know how to fix it? 18:13 lissobone I started wondering if it's possible to run such a server on GNU Hurd. 18:13 lissobone Probably yes. 18:13 lissobone Maybe the forum needs a special department? 18:13 mrkubax10 run server on ReactOS 18:13 lissobone It will be for server maintenance discussions. 18:14 lissobone (Genious, isn't it?) 18:14 lissobone You know what? 18:14 lissobone You know what's funny? 18:14 MTDiscord https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/1067507781965463702/image.png 18:15 lissobone Tls? 18:15 lissobone Increased [$!$$]? 18:15 lissobone Is the server being DDOSed or something? 18:16 lissobone Is there someone training an image processing neural network on it?? 18:18 lissobone Maybe some brazilian blogger released a video again, causing these load spikes? 18:18 lissobone Anyways, here's what I wanted to say regarding the funniest thing as of today. 18:19 mrkubax10 blog post mentioned some youtuber recording video about Minetest 18:19 lissobone It's re-e-e-ally funny how libera houses both #fsf and #windows. 18:19 mrkubax10 lol 18:20 lissobone And why is windows here? Isn't libera called "libera" for a reason? 18:21 lissobone Blog post? So it's likely that minetest is experiencing yet another popularity spike, isn't it? 18:21 rubenwardy not right now 18:21 lissobone So what is it? 18:21 ROllerozxa you can see the amount of users online at any given time on the forums, there's no spike of users right now 18:21 lissobone Hm-m. 18:21 lissobone Right. 18:21 lissobone I missed that. 18:22 mrkubax10 ah it's from November 18:22 MTDiscord Blog post for January, next weekish, I sincerely hope 18:22 MTDiscord So MT finally gets attention and we're delivering a "no they cant" picture? Oh my 😄 C'mon, what do we have to do to get a working forum? 18:22 rubenwardy it's a matter of time and working out the problem 18:23 lissobone Perhaps certain proprietary software components are sucking out the server's capabilities? 18:23 lissobone (I am not being serious right now.) 18:23 lissobone (Or am I?) 18:24 MTDiscord Ok, so there is a technical problem and it needs time to be worked on. Is there something we can contribute? We certainly don't need the admin have to come up with a solution all by themselves? 18:25 lissobone We can't really directly influence the server's computations, but we can discuss that publicly with celeron. 18:27 lissobone It's really great how contentdb and minetest.net have no nonfree JS. 18:27 lissobone LibreJS stays quiet and content. 18:28 lissobone My inner Stallman remains satisfied. 18:28 mrkubax10 lol 18:30 lissobone Is your Stallman satisfied? 18:32 lissobone Mine is not, as there's always nonfree software to fight with. 18:41 mrkubax10 well nvidia drivers unfortunately 18:41 mrkubax10 :/ 18:41 mrkubax10 nouveau is unusable for me 18:56 celeron55 it seems to respond roughly as it did after the recent fix 18:58 celeron55 has the problem already went away? 18:59 celeron55 i can see large amounts of sql queries have been occurring for maybe 40 minutes nw 18:59 celeron55 now* 19:03 MTDiscord It feels a tiny bit faster than when I first noticed. It's not "fast" though. Is there anything we can do to help you get it up to speed? 19:03 celeron55 seems like the cause is two simultaneous uncommon crawlers... one of which is doing what seems like really stupid things. lol, it's fetching a wiki main page over and over again in some sort of redirect loop 19:04 celeron55 i'll tweak some things, this is a good test for some configuration improvements 19:05 celeron55 the other one is crawling the wiki probably as fast as it can 19:07 celeron55 new nginx rate limit configs going in 19:19 celeron55 i probably need to upgrade the server to something faster. not because of the amount of legit users, but because of crawlers 19:21 MTDiscord Locking them out is no option, I guess? Or telling them via robots.txt how to behave and throwing those who don't behave out? 19:21 celeron55 it can currently handle about 2x page loads (meaning pages that result in mysql requests) compared to normal traffic 19:21 celeron55 that needs manual work every time 19:22 celeron55 it's not viable. would be an absolute waste of my time certainly 19:22 MTDiscord We can't be the only ones who want to do this. How to others do that? 19:22 celeron55 well, 2x is too little margin, that's certain 19:23 celeron55 i'd feel more comfortable with 5x 19:25 celeron55 cloudflare would probably help with some things, but it depends on the exact behavior of the crawler. i tend to not think it would generally solve the issue 19:25 celeron55 robots.txt... need to take a look, not sure what's there at the moment 19:25 celeron55 pretty sure these ones wouldn't follow it even if it was there 19:26 rubenwardy ContentDB handled 5x page loads increase with no issue sduring the mexican spike, interested to see how it scales beyond that 19:26 rubenwardy mexican wave 19:26 ROllerozxa just block crawlers if they don't respect crawl-delay and aren't important search indexers (google, bing, yandex, DDG, whatever...) 19:26 celeron55 https://forum.minetest.net/robots.txt says Crawl-delay: 10, which seems good 19:26 celeron55 the wikis are missing robots.txt. need to add it 19:26 lissobone Crawlers... 19:27 celeron55 ROllerozxa: well if there was a magic button i could press that would do it, of course i would press it 19:27 celeron55 or i could throw money at the problem (in a way that doesn't incur recurring costs that cannot be backed out of) 19:27 celeron55 but that's not how it works 19:29 rubenwardy what's the specs of the machine you use? 19:31 Krock https://i.redd.it/arkj47j7nrn51.jpg 19:32 rubenwardy lmao 19:33 rubenwardy I was thinking more https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/6/3/63db795497646f2b913665554a383ae50621fed7.jpeg 19:33 ROllerozxa you can return 444 at the nginx web server level on an UA fragment that matches that of an aggressive crawler 19:33 ROllerozxa e.g: `if ($http_user_agent ~* (AhrefsBot|SomeOtherAggressiveBot)) { return 444; }` 19:34 ROllerozxa (444 is an internal nginx error code that just drops the connection without a response) 19:35 celeron55 it's a (believe it or not) a dedicated server, hosted in france, with an intel atom C2338, 4 GB of RAM and a SanDisk X400 2.5 7MM 128GB SSD 19:37 Krock surprisingly close to what I posted 19:37 rubenwardy I used to use a dedicated server (Kimsufi) but at the cheap end you don't get much for your money. I now use a virtual dedicated (VPS with dedicated CPU) - ContentDB uses a netcup RS 2000 G9.5, 6-core 3.35GHz, 16GB RAM for about £16pm 19:37 celeron55 it was the cheapest way for me to get away from VPSes. I hate VPSes when I need reliable processing power and especially reliable I/O performance. this one does it. not massively fast, but nobody can throttle it in any way. very predictable 19:38 DeepT celeron55, i just want to say i blame you entirely for the hours I have wasted playing minetest 19:38 DeepT thanks for a great game :D 19:38 celeron55 on any VPS I've always run into issues with someone else on the host ruining my hosting experience. on this, it's always been either my fault, or a client doing something with my services 19:40 celeron55 i won't accept any hosting offer unless i have a dedicated CPU, dedicated RAM and a dedicated disk 19:41 celeron55 it's the only way to actually know how much of each you have 19:41 celeron55 and the only way to make sure you actually have it 19:41 Krock fixed allocations are also possible in regular VMs/VPS' 19:42 rubenwardy yet the forums are currently being throttled 19:42 celeron55 that's because of reasons i can measure and understand, and not because some bullshit i/o limits done by the host without any transparency 19:43 celeron55 or because someone else messing around on the host ruining my day 19:43 celeron55 anyway. i'm up for upgrading this, as long as it's a dedicated machine for cheap 19:46 celeron55 it needs to be cost effective, because i don't want to beg for money. but i neither will pay it out of my pocket 19:46 celeron55 and i don't want to have to downgrade it due to lack of funds, that would be the worst 19:48 DeepT im asking my canadian ISP administrating friend if he has something beefier for cheap 19:49 celeron55 this box costs 12.64 €/month + 24% VAT 19:49 DeepT good to know, that way i can define "cheap" 19:49 celeron55 it needs to be a well known big host. i don't want to switch machines because the host is going bankrupt or whatever either 19:50 DeepT ah nvm then 19:50 rubenwardy your requirements are basically guaranteeing poor performance 19:50 celeron55 and it needs to be in europe. i won't transfer user data out of europe 19:51 rubenwardy Well, depends how well known. The big name hosts are all about cloud and cost more. Much better value with less known hosts - like netcup or contabo 19:51 rubenwardy the 1000€ is a pretty sizable buffer 19:52 celeron55 i've been half seriously considering hosting it myself too. i have 100M fiber, solar + battery backup for power, and i could hide behind cloudflare 19:53 celeron55 and could upgrade the fiber to multiple times faster given the upgrade would be covered as hosting expenses 19:53 celeron55 would need to get a machine for it though. don't have anything suitable at hand 19:55 ROllerozxa looking at netcup, there's the RS 1000 G9.5 right below the server contentdb is on for 11.76€/mo... root server means dedicated right? 19:55 rubenwardy yes 19:55 rubenwardy virtual dedicated* 19:55 ROllerozxa 8GB RAM, AMD EPYC 7702 with 4 dedicated cores, 160GB SSD... should be enough I assume 19:55 celeron55 what you guys definitely are right about is that this server is at its limits and it needs upgrading one way or another 19:57 rubenwardy there's also https://www.tuxfamily.org/ 19:57 rubenwardy hosts Godot infrastructure 19:59 celeron55 bandwidth is what i don't need a lot of. it's averaging at around 700 kbit/s and peaks at just under 2 Mbit/s. that's, what, 230 GB/month? 19:59 celeron55 of course more peak bandwidth is always useful 19:59 rubenwardy I don't think you'll have any trouble raising money for hosting though. Without any fundraising campaigns, my patreon etc got to $57. Just need to be transparent about what you're using it for. You 20:00 rubenwardy ContentDB currently uses about 2TB per month. Bandwidth is a limiting factor - netcup offers 120TB 20:01 rubenwardy Ideally, I'd like to have a org + opencollective, but alas 20:02 celeron55 well, let's make a deal 20:02 celeron55 i'll get the netcup RS like contentdb 20:02 celeron55 and then nobody complains for 5 years? 20:03 celeron55 i don't trust it, but if the users do, then that's fine to me 20:04 celeron55 based on the specs it should be about 10x faster compared to the current machine. assuming the virtualization doesn't ruin it 20:05 celeron55 the cpu that is. the disk is anyone's guess as nothing is specified 20:05 rubenwardy d if=/dev/zero of=./testfile bs=1G count=10 oflag=direct 20:05 rubenwardy 10737418240 bytes (11 GB, 10 GiB) copied, 27.9403 s, 384 MB/s 20:05 rubenwardy not the best not the worst 20:05 rubenwardy although maybe not the highest demand right now 20:06 rubenwardy ContentDB is still slower than I'd like, but I blame that on my shitty SQL/ORM usage 20:07 celeron55 i can guarantee shitty SQL/ORM usage for the forum and wikis 20:07 celeron55 i get that for free 20:08 celeron55 looks like the disk is about 10x faster too. well, that varies, possibly a lot, but looks like there's some room for that 20:13 ROllerozxa hooray, new server time 20:13 ROllerozxa if it's enough for contentdb, then surely it can handle the forums and wiki 20:15 celeron55 you're putting too much faith on phpbb. but phpbb's legacy tech has a good side: however bad i talk about it it's fairly lightweight, because it was designed at a time when computing resources were way more expensive than today 20:16 rubenwardy I would get the next server up for CDB, but the price jump is pretty huge 20:17 celeron55 well technically the best solution would be to get the next server up, and host contentdb and the forum and the wikis there, but that's probably putting too many eggs in the same basket 20:17 celeron55 i'm wondering whether just getting the machine from the same host is a bad idea 20:18 celeron55 it's nice to have only one service go down when an entire host goes down 20:20 rubenwardy it's kind of funny how different that is to the cloud approach, where if one host goes down the service might just be slower 20:21 rubenwardy not that I'd want the cloud approach - the cloud only makes sense if the cost of going offline is more than the cost of being in the cloud 20:22 celeron55 yeah it's fun but too expensive unless every client is making you money 20:22 MTDiscord celeron55: how is the server so slow when so little bandwidth is being used? 20:22 MTDiscord what is happening under the hood? 20:22 MTDiscord have you tried some profiling? upgrading the phpBB, PHP, MySQL? 20:24 MTDiscord wild guess: MySQL is probably doing full table scans whenever someone is searching something 20:25 MTDiscord ContentDB uses an index (IIRC it's a Postgres extension or something there) to speed searches up 20:25 celeron55 the hardware can only handle a certain rate of mysql (mariadb) queries. if you didn't look it up, the CPU is about half as fast as a raspberry pi 4 B 20:26 MTDiscord oof 20:26 MTDiscord still I diagnose the stack with algorithmic problems ;) 20:27 celeron55 you're welcome to diagnose it, but i won't give you the data :-) and i don't have time for diagnosing it. it's just phpbb and mediawiki, with mostly default settings and the recommended setup 20:27 celeron55 it seems to me they're performing as expected on the hardware 20:28 MTDiscord MySQL seems to have support for fulltext indexes: https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/8.0/en/fulltext-search.html 20:28 MTDiscord Not sure if phpBB uses this feature though 20:28 celeron55 it doesn't matter what mysql has. i'm not making the hosted software myself 20:29 celeron55 phpbb has its own search speed-up system as far as i know 20:29 celeron55 i know that, because sometimes it ends up doing silly heavy operations when you're doing moderator or admin stuff 20:30 celeron55 related to the search index 20:31 MTDiscord phpBB does seem to have code related to using FULLTEXT indexes of MySQL 20:32 celeron55 could be it was an older version and they've since updated it, or whatever. in any case, it kind of doesn't matter 20:32 MTDiscord hopefully the minetest forums actually uses "fulltext mysql" instead of the "fulltext native" indexer 20:33 celeron55 ah so that's what the phpbb options are called 20:35 celeron55 lol, looks like phpbb native is selected 20:39 MTDiscord that thing frankly is a mess 20:39 celeron55 looks like from scaleway (the current provider) a 5x faster machine would cost about 27€/month including VAT 20:39 celeron55 that's a bit steep 20:40 celeron55 about 10x faster would be about 37€ 20:40 rubenwardy that's about what I was paying on linode 20:41 celeron55 that would have very solid performance but it's also about 3x more than a virtual dedicated, or similar 20:41 rubenwardy also, 1000€ would last 3 years at 27€ a month 20:41 rubenwardy if you want to think of it like that 20:42 celeron55 that's exactly how i think of it. it's my "no worries" buffer 20:43 celeron55 well, we could even do a vote somewhere 20:43 celeron55 it's probably a waste of money from the donor's standpoint 20:43 celeron55 i wouldn't like it if my money was spent on that 20:47 celeron55 i definitely feel like i have the obligation to spend the money in a way that ensures the websites have a high chance of being available a good while. that means hosting must be painless and reliable, but also cost effective 20:55 celeron55 i wonder what's involved in changing phpbb's search backend other than choosing a new one from the dropdown menu... 20:57 celeron55 i'll yolo it 21:00 celeron55 it creates the index now. it might be barely usable while it's doing it. it's going to index about half a million words and about 8 million word-to-post relations, according to the phpbb native cache statistics 21:17 fluxionary on a test server running 5.7.0-dev w/ this commit https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/b8aaad4f1ef2e4b22cb7d47de9cb54068ccbbe18, we're suddenly seeing crashes due to the fact that `minetest.get_objects_inside_radius` is suddenly returning objects where `obj:is_player() == false and obj:get_luaentity() == nil`. while it's clear that we need to fix the lua code which assumes always one or the other, i'm really curious as to what might have 21:17 fluxionary changed since 5.6.1 which would result in such objects? 21:48 DeepT i never understand why people will join a server, not even move or do anything then quit 21:52 MTDiscord fyi @x2048 22:10 fluxionary DeepT: possibly because they've got low power machines and nothing loads 22:26 sfan5 fluxionary: can you bisect? 22:27 fluxionary sfan5, i don't have a way of causing it, though i'm working on that 22:27 fluxionary it's caused 2 crashes, and i've got no further details on what the relevant object actually was 22:57 DeepT mobs_sky for mobs_redo, anyone know how to use gull eggs?