Time Nick Message 06:47 independent56 Are mapblocks quantum? Only when you view them is their state revealed - loaded, unloaded. And sometimes the state is changed under observation, or lack thereof 11:58 independent_ Comparing my old train map to the new... wow... it's changed to be so much bigger https://imgur.com/a/5RC1Ewu 11:58 independent_ https://i.imgur.com/NYZsxXB.png https://i.imgur.com/YyR62gs.png 11:59 independent_ Even disregarding the dotted "in construction" lines, it is still massive 12:30 erle independent_, do you have an idea how to properly represent trains in xmaps? https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/xmaps/ 12:31 independent_ What do you mean represent? 12:31 independent_ Iconography? 12:32 erle like how you want them to look on the map 12:32 erle i tried alternating dark and light on a line 12:32 erle like in real maps 12:32 independent_ Hmm.... possibly boxes with the train ID in them. 12:32 erle but it looked to modern 12:32 independent_ Yeah, that's a good idea 12:33 independent_ Possibly just a thin black line, in comparison to roads being tubes http://www.hasselbacher.org/Maps/Legend_1828_maps.jpg 12:34 independent_ As for the trains, possibly little symbols https://digitalplacesolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/P1014179.jpg like this, boxes with ID umbers 12:34 erle wow thanks 12:34 erle can you program lua? 12:35 independent_ yes, but i do not have knowladge of the minetest API. I have made train information boards, but they are very broken 12:35 independent_ I mean, i do, but not that much 12:36 independent_ consider https://gitlab.com/56independent/aac2/-/tree/master/languages/General%20minetest/56i-mtserver/trains/passangertimes and https://gitlab.com/56independent/britsignals 12:37 erle then maybe you have an idea how i could improve the xmaps api 12:38 independent_ Honestly, i am in no posistion of authority or knowledge to complain about APIs 12:39 independent_ maybe the Advtrains lua in-world api, but nothing else 12:44 erle independent_ i just mean, if you wanted to make a map of trains, how would you want to do it? 12:45 independent_ Honestly, as a train admin, it would be something like https://raildar.co.uk/map, with a schematic of points, but for a general map, a black line works fine 13:38 Parnikkapore_m Upvoting a line (possibly black) to represent railroad tracks on xmaps 13:43 MTDiscord You could do a line with small lines crossing it, like railroad ties, so a rail line looks like ++++++ 14:06 settl3r[m] At which light level do rats start to spawn? at 8? 14:07 settl3r[m] And at which light level is an area considered 'safe' (from monsters) ? 14:07 settl3r[m] Are rats the only way to tame cats? 14:07 settl3r[m] s/way/food/ 14:10 celeron55 erle: in xmaps style a train track probably would be just a dotted line. nothing else. any extra information doesn't really fit into the "olden times" style 14:11 celeron55 it's not a bad thing, as for treasure maps it adds some mystery that things aren't perfectly marked and labeled 14:12 celeron55 maybe a dashed line. something that makes a reasonable contrast with the palette when using some color from the palette 14:13 celeron55 or even a . . . . . -style line, i.e. widely spaced dots, just to leave room for other things 14:15 celeron55 you could contrast roads to that by making them just a different color, a different dash/dot pattern or even a wiggly line 14:16 celeron55 (or just not draw roads at all) 14:18 celeron55 of course if you're going for a "pokemon on gameboy" style then trying to make a more photorealistic (lol) rail makes sense, like what Warr1024 suggested, or even make both rails visible 14:30 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Add relative numbers for commands by prepending ~ (#9588) 13ac5e817 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ac5e8176b9a2b36520bcc78b9d486aea7742d554 (152022-05-22T14:28:24Z) 14:35 erle celeron55 i tried dotted lines, but straight dotted lines on this kind of map just seem weird 14:35 erle advanced trains seems to have curved tracks though 14:36 celeron55 well, if the tracks are straight, there's not much you can do. well you could apply a transformation that makes straight tracks curved, like make a very shallow zig zag pattern 14:36 erle celeron55 you are right btw, “things not perfectly marked” is what i am going for. not enough space to draw a tree because enough stuff drawn in the area? i draw no tree 14:37 erle the thing is, since i have added the ability to put the maps on sides of nodes, i think train tracks would really fit! https://mister-muffin.de/p/FVrz.png 14:37 celeron55 or you could try a zig zag pattern anyway, it could look ok 14:38 celeron55 what if you space the dots even further and use a dark color for them? instead of tightly spaced dots and a light color 14:39 celeron55 some responsibility falls onto the train track designer too, straight tracks look boring anyway 14:39 erle it's more about the curves 14:39 celeron55 make them not straight and they'll look better on a map 14:39 erle which is why i am thinking about advanced trains 14:40 celeron55 probably have to traverse the track in the map generator and figure out the average direction it's going 14:40 celeron55 then draw the line in that direction 14:41 erle nah, i'm too lazy for that stuff. really, all i am doing is traversing a mapblock and plotting it at 1 node = 1 pixel resolution 14:41 erle then adding some icons 14:41 erle the coastline is total trickery for example 14:42 erle i just draw the water, then look at each pixel and do some stuff when water and land are next to each other 14:42 erle but it looks nice 14:42 celeron55 what about for drawing the tracks, you'd divide the map into let's say 3x3 pixels blocks, then check if there are any tracks in that block in the world, and if there are, draw a dot at the middle of that block 14:42 erle that sounds like a good idea actually 14:42 celeron55 you'd get dotted lines with an enforced maximum amount of dots 14:43 erle because right now i have this thing where if you make a small loop of track it looks stupid 14:43 erle also it could maybe make diagonal tracks look good 14:43 celeron55 a non square block could make sense too, like 2x3 pixels 14:43 celeron55 adds a bit of style 14:44 celeron55 you'll then have to decide which side of the 2 pixels you'll draw the dots but that's just a coin toss when writing the code 14:44 celeron55 doesn't really matter 14:44 erle i mean, i'd probably implement it differently, like the trees and plants: it blits an image onto the existing bitmap only if it does not overlap something previously drawn 14:44 MTDiscord I still wonder how it is possible to set a pos of an entity WITHOUT the target area being loaded and it working even if you restart before you visit the area...does MT actually load the mapblock from disk, store the entity and save it back to disk all inside set_pos()? 14:45 celeron55 ah so you'd draw the tracks basically as sprites on a grid 14:45 celeron55 while you draw trees and stuff as freely positioned sprites 14:45 celeron55 try it, i think it'll work fine enough 14:45 erle i would not even do it on a grid, if i make a 3x3 bitmap with a dot in it and ensure it never blits where i already drew tracks, i can have non-grid sprites basically 14:45 erle thank you! 14:46 erle celeron55 do you have maybe any idea for mountains (except contour lines, those don't fit the style), sandy deserts or icy plains? 14:46 erle icy plains and mountains look super boring on the map rn 14:47 MTDiscord I'm asking this cause I need to know how reliable it is to send an entity into an unloaded map area 14:48 celeron55 well, some kind of shading could work. like do a dim dot pattern where there's a slope towards +x or +z (or however you choose), and leave -x and -z slopes the regular color 14:48 celeron55 do it below all the objects 14:49 erle hmm, interesting idea 14:49 celeron55 or maybe just use horizontal lines like the water. not sure about the style, but shading slopes is probably the way to go 14:49 erle right now i have a checkerboard pattern below everything 14:49 erle the horizontal lines are the contour lines i mentioned, everyone suggests them 14:49 erle but they don't fit the hand-drawn ye olde times style 14:50 erle they are just easy to implement 14:50 celeron55 i don't mean contour lines 14:50 celeron55 they could fit if the palette is carefully used but not sure 14:50 erle oh you mean like some pattern 14:50 celeron55 it'd look like a technical geological map if you used contour lines 14:50 erle the palette is 256 bytes, i am using like 12 or so haha 14:50 celeron55 shading is different 14:51 erle i see, i misunderstood 14:51 erle i tried drawing actual mountains on the map which looked great, but i did not have good enough peak detection 14:51 erle if i had some algorithm for “find large mountain” and “find small mountain” and “find tiny hill”, it would be great 14:52 erle celeron55 btw do you remember how long it took from rails being added to actual railcarts? 14:52 celeron55 well, you could just compare the height difference inside the mapblock, and if it's lare, then draw one of those symbols, maybe even at a random position in the mapblock 14:53 celeron55 large* 14:53 celeron55 like, just pick the four corners and middle point or whatever, and see what the largest y variation is 14:54 celeron55 i don't remember, doesn't really matter 14:54 erle nah, just historical curiosity 14:54 erle could be a good idea to scan each 16×16 x×z area for highest y and then draw a mountain or not, what do you think? 14:55 erle i'll try a bit the rail things now 14:55 erle i already like how the maps make it much harder to get lost 14:55 celeron55 i think rails were added in the spring of 2011, and carts were added when the modding api had enough features, i don't think that could have been more than 2 years, probably not even 1 14:56 celeron55 i think the mountain symbol shouldn't be based on absolute y, but height variation 14:56 celeron55 but it's possible that's not true 14:57 celeron55 it's a question of what it should represent 14:57 celeron55 should it represent hard to pass terrain (height variation) or a high up place, but possibly easy to pass (large y) 14:57 MisterE[m] And then what will you do with jordach's mountians :trollface: 14:58 celeron55 i think hard to pass terrain would probably be more useful as a map feature 14:58 celeron55 altough then the symbols would focus on the slopes instead of the mountain tops, if the mountain tops are flat 14:58 erle what is jordach mountains? 14:59 MTDiscord His new mapgen 14:59 erle celeron55 you are right, the map should be useful to navigate 14:59 erle i bet rails are group=rail or so now hehehe 15:00 erle R.I.P. CONTENT_RAIL 15:01 MTDiscord Where a mountian is a significant portion of the world 15:03 erle MisterE btw could you use an xmaps style HUD for some of the minigames? i'd be willing to help if yes 15:06 definitelya MisterE[m]: Wouldn't that be a mountain range mapgen? If so, the map could clump mountains together (2x2, 3x3, etc.), to give a more omogeneous feel. 15:08 MTDiscord My point, and note the trollface please, was that the mountians are too large to load so yoo would not know where they are and arent 15:08 MTDiscord Erle, actually, perhaps 15:09 erle tell 15:09 MTDiscord Maybe in some gems arenas 15:09 definitelya Aknowledged :P 15:10 MTDiscord I need a way for players to know where the enemy's gem is, where the mines are, etc 15:11 MTDiscord Altho, I'm unsure that the maps would be a great fit 15:11 MTDiscord Testing needed 15:12 erle celeron55 do you have an example of the kind of shading you mean? is it the thing that fleckenstein implemented for mcl_maps? (look at the trees) https://mister-muffin.de/p/PKRN.jpg 15:13 MTDiscord Hmm, that might work 15:13 erle (map markers are not in mineclone2, btw. but i bet they will be at some point) 15:16 MTDiscord Erle, I want to revamp gems at some point soon. I will ping you 15:16 celeron55 i'm actually not that convinced of the idea when thinking it a bit more. layering things doesn't really work in that style 15:17 celeron55 for that style for every given free spot you have to determine what's the most important thing to show, and draw the symbol for that thing there 15:17 celeron55 discarding everything else 15:20 erle MisterE[m] cool! 15:20 erle celeron55 you might be right. but like, what if the biggest thing is drawn first 15:20 erle i mean i kinda do that right now 15:21 erle first water, then trees, then grass, then flowers 15:21 erle mountains would be between water and trees 15:21 erle as they are big features 15:21 celeron55 i'd probably do a few passes, starting with the most important things, and then the last passes can fill the not important places with less important things, if there are any 15:21 erle yeah 15:22 celeron55 mountains would probably be one of the least priority things 15:22 erle so like, the rail line would obviosly be drawn before the trees 15:22 erle well, if a mountain is just a /\ symbol that might have a lot of background color 15:23 celeron55 well, if the mountain still fits after the more important things, then for sure it can be drawn 15:23 celeron55 but if there's a house or something on a mountain, the house should be drawn, not the mountain, if the mountain symbol doesn't fit 15:24 erle true, but if i make the mountain symbol very large i could just also give it a palette color that is ignored when blitting 15:24 celeron55 that's layering, which i think doesn't fit the style well 15:24 celeron55 but if you can make it look good, then go ahead 15:24 erle each blit takes a list of colors that are stop colors, i.e. if the blit area contains any of those, it does not blit 15:24 erle i can try. but first, rails. 15:35 erle celeron55 is this what you meant with a dotted line? i think it needs to be a bit darker, but otherwise, i kinda like it. https://mister-muffin.de/p/XRu4.png 15:35 erle also i need to work on the diagonals, maybe your grid idea was not so bad 15:38 celeron55 well, it's a start, but does need improvement 15:38 celeron55 maybe even 2x2 dots would be appropriate 15:38 celeron55 as all the other things on the map are so much bigger 15:49 Pexin for rails, if possible i would favor what Warr was talking about. old rail maps used a line with periodic short lines crossing it. but once again the resolution may not allow it. 15:50 erle MisterE[m] what is gems actually about? 15:50 Pexin it occurs to me that representation might have been a murkan thing. no idea what other countries did 15:51 MTDiscord erle, what about having elevation contours? 15:51 MTDiscord want to play gems? 15:52 Pexin settl3r[m]: someone was working on making cats tameable by giving them fish, but i dont think they got around to finishing it yet. 15:52 erle not right now, but maybe you can point me to what gems does 15:52 erle like documentation 15:52 MTDiscord oh documentation, how I hate thee 15:52 MTDiscord I wish 15:53 MTDiscord so... gems basically is bedwars 15:53 erle Pexin settl3r[m] ocelots in mobs_mc are tameable afaik, they become cats 15:53 MTDiscord do you know that erle? 15:53 erle MisterE[m] what is bedwars lol 15:53 MTDiscord ok 15:53 erle kill the other players bed? 15:53 erle because that's what people already do on anarchy servers hehe 15:54 Pexin MY PHYLACHTERY 15:54 MTDiscord so... bedwars, eggwars, gems, and their ilk basically are where there are teams, and each team has a base. If their base exists, they can respawn, if it is destroyed, they will be eliminated when they die 15:54 MTDiscord with gems, its a bit more complicated 15:55 MTDiscord each team has a great gem they must protect. 15:55 MTDiscord that is their respawn base 15:55 MTDiscord if it is destroyed, they can be eliminated 15:55 MTDiscord to destroy a great gem, you must use a gem pick 15:56 MTDiscord in eggwars, and in gems, you get items by collecting money (gems) from droppers, and selling them in shops 15:56 MTDiscord in gems, you can only sell gems at the correct shop 15:56 erle Pexin that made me smile hehehe 15:56 MTDiscord like, there are 4 differrent gems, and 4 different shops 15:57 erle so uh 15:57 erle it is like a heist game 15:57 MTDiscord at each shop, you can sell gems, and get gem items of that type, as well as regular items 15:57 MTDiscord to destroy a great gem, you need a gem pick 15:58 MTDiscord the catch is that you cannot use your team's gem-pick to dig the opposite team's great gem 15:58 MTDiscord also, the gem swords work best (add extra damage) against the team of the same type 15:58 MTDiscord also gem shields protect most against attacks from the team of that gem type 15:59 MTDiscord and gem picks of the same type as a great gem dig fastest 15:59 MTDiscord so you see, your own gem type is your team's greatest weakness 15:59 MTDiscord you must protect your own team's gem type, even though you cannot use it for much 16:00 MTDiscord while trying to capture gems of other teams 16:00 MTDiscord because they will be most effective against that team 16:01 MTDiscord you can use your own type of gem to buy basic items, (regular sword, pick, armor, etc) 16:01 erle MisterE[m] so it is about who mines faster 16:01 erle MisterE[m] can players also attack each other? 16:02 MTDiscord you can also use your own type of gems to purchase gem protector blocks. Those are the only gem item you want in your own gem type 16:02 erle does this mean you need like a lot of players? 16:02 MTDiscord oh I forgot the gem blocks which cannot be mined except by gem picks 16:02 erle also where would the map come in here, as a HUD for “where is the shop and where are the gems”? 16:03 MTDiscord but gem protectors are defensive blocks that damage other teams but not your team 16:03 MTDiscord in a readius 16:03 MTDiscord *radius 16:03 MTDiscord erle, you can pvp, that is mostly the point 16:03 erle so how big is the arena? 16:04 MTDiscord you need at least 2 players for 2 team, and 4 players for 4 team games. But the 2 team isnt very fun without 4 players, and the 4 team isnt very fun without 12 players 16:04 MTDiscord the maps are... kinda large? 16:04 MTDiscord depends 16:04 MTDiscord I have an island map 16:04 MTDiscord for 2 teams 16:04 MTDiscord where each team is on a pirate ship on 2 sides of an island 16:05 MTDiscord there are mines (gem droppers) in "mine-like" structures on the island, 16:05 MTDiscord and shops in the ships 16:05 MTDiscord also there are shops on top of the mountian on the island 16:06 MTDiscord there are also the two other gem types which do not have teams attached on the sides of the island, in mines and shops in small boats just off the island 16:06 MTDiscord then there is a space themed arena (2 players). its kinda experimental. 16:06 MTDiscord *2 teams 16:06 MTDiscord each team spawns in a small planetoid' 16:07 MTDiscord and their great gems are on an islend bewteen them, in the middle 16:08 MTDiscord there are droppers in their starting planetoids, and also on the central island. the shops are in the starting planetoids, and there are the extra color gems in spaceships to the side 16:08 MTDiscord then the 4 team arena 16:08 MTDiscord is in a desert valley setting 16:08 erle MisterE[m] i think up until 256×256 it probably works for my map HUD approach. after that, you no longer benefit much without a big screen, as the pixels are too tiny to recognize anything. 16:08 erle so how big is the arena in terms of nodes? 16:09 MTDiscord I dont recall, but I think that would work for many arenas 16:09 MTDiscord but... there is an issue... 16:09 MTDiscord if the maps are autogenerated 16:09 MTDiscord then they will show stuff outside the arena 16:09 MTDiscord which is usually empty air, or flat stone 16:10 MTDiscord also the arenas are rectanglular often' 16:10 MTDiscord and the space-themed one will not go well with the theme, I think 16:10 MTDiscord so, those are some issues to consider 16:10 MTDiscord for finding the map elements, I was considering Positional HUDs' 16:11 erle it is trivial to limit the map rendering to whatever you want 16:11 erle like, i limit it to an 80×80×80 cube because i want to minimize emerges 16:11 MTDiscord so, the gems arena is defined in the arena definition as two bounding points, so the map can use that 16:11 erle good 16:11 erle yes 16:11 MTDiscord and it does get all emerged anyways 16:11 erle sounds good 16:12 MTDiscord I suppose the map can be themed? 16:12 erle obviously you can do whatever you want 16:12 erle it's just showing a bitmap 16:13 MTDiscord well, I saw 2 themes in the examples 16:13 MTDiscord pirate-map like 16:13 MTDiscord and more true-to-life 16:14 erle the more true-to-life thing is from mcl_maps, which fleckenstein made … last year i think (?) and i improved for mineclonia (i am not done with the improvements yet) 16:15 MTDiscord hm, so xmaps is just the pirate-theme? 16:15 MTDiscord well, I guess it would mostly work 16:15 MTDiscord erle, no rush, but before you help with the code, you should play gems, and then examine the code 16:18 erle xmaps is just “hand drawn treasure map” themed 16:18 erle like if you had a mapgen that added chests somewhere 16:19 erle you could generate some far away chest, make an item using xmaps and put it into a chest at the current position 16:19 erle or players could mark their bases like that 16:19 erle if you want a dynamic map for gems that shows, for example, where the enemy is and where you are, that's possible 16:20 erle but it might be more interesting if it only has the level layout 16:20 erle like a proper minimap 16:20 erle and maybe a location of shops and gems 16:20 erle your choice 16:33 Pexin erle: re client hints: well of course, the server has the right to know everything about you, and you aren't allowed to know anything about the server. that's just fair innit. *confused corporate noises* 16:33 erle hehehehehehe 16:34 erle this is rails on flat ground in the woods with darker dotted lines https://mister-muffin.de/p/nOhl.png 16:45 erle Pexin look https://mister-muffin.de/p/NZ_0.png 16:46 Pexin oooooh 16:46 Pexin . 16:47 erle Pexin is this what you want? 16:47 erle the diagonal one looks like crap 16:47 Parnikkapore_m that does look a lot more like train tracks (but needs better transitions) 16:48 Parnikkapore_m darker dotted lines looks a lot like a walking path (or maybe the "walk like this to the X" on treasure maps) 16:49 Parnikkapore_m not always a bad thing tho 16:50 Pexin yeah i was thinking dotted line looks like walking path too. not sure why I thought that 16:51 Pexin erle: looks like you're putting a lot of work into this. once it's ready, I think I'll suggest it to the admins on my regular server (with procedural treasure) 16:51 erle Pexin you can already suggest it 16:52 Pexin I'm sure the ProcTreas can be modular 16:52 erle i will keep it compatible with all future API extensions 16:52 erle like, when i enable different map styles, this will just be the default 16:54 erle MisterE[m] Pexin i wonder: for radically different map styles, would it just be enough for the map to have a callback that just takes minp, maxp and spits out a bitmap? 16:55 Pexin ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 16:57 erle Pexin anyway, it's “ready” from my POV as soon as version 2022-05-22.2 is on cdb 16:58 erle Pexin but you can start making a “treasure chest” mod right now actually 18:48 celeron55 i think the "Pexin-style" track looks fine 18:49 celeron55 the almost glitch like graphical quality doesn't bother me 18:49 celeron55 the dotted line is indeed not very self-explanatory 18:51 celeron55 i mean, if i was shown the former without any indication what it was representing, one of my guesses would be railroad track 18:51 celeron55 i can't say the same of the latter 19:24 MinetestBot 02[git] 04Wuzzy2 -> 03minetest/minetest: Add missing comma in example in lua_api.txt (#12339) 13fa68227 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/fa682270a99383f0f91c37aeed974acc140f34df (152022-05-22T19:23:04Z)