Time Nick Message 14:14 erle i consider this finished, unless someone finds new bugs https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/maps 14:14 erle please try it out 16:47 erle can i make the player wield a custom texture? 16:47 erle (a map obviously) 17:12 MTDiscord As in in-world wielding? 17:12 MTDiscord If by 'custom' & 'map' I'm inferring dynamic media correctly, attachments is the way to go. Might look weird in 1st person though? Don't know how attachments interfere with that. 17:14 MTDiscord If it's not a dynamic texture, then you can probably throw it at whatever visible wields mod you're using? (does MTG have it by default?) 17:14 MTDiscord *throw an item 17:16 MTDiscord (wield item mods'll be using an attachment anyways) 17:25 erle GoodClover wanna test this? https://git.minetest.land/erlehmann/maps 17:29 MTDiscord not right now sorry, no 19:05 erle i have submitted my maps mod to contentdb https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/xmaps/ 19:06 erle i have called it xmaps instead of maps because minebase already contains a mod named maps 19:08 erle wsor thank you for approving packages. can you tell me how much time you put into it usually and what makes it harder or easier for you? 20:34 MinetestBot 02[git] 04x2048 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix lighting of the wield mesh (#12341) 13604fb2b https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/604fb2b738c1f369c608b7f3b778034bf3dc2725 (152022-05-20T20:33:52Z) 20:36 MinetestBot 02[git] 04x2048 -> 03minetest/minetest: Fix lighting of upright_sprite entities (#12336) 13a4ef62f https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/a4ef62f5b215fe0f23e3e50672f1538854db4ed9 (152022-05-20T20:35:03Z) 20:39 MTDiscord erle: regarding the medieval maps, I'd suggest adding some randomness to the map if not done already 20:39 MTDiscord Like remove 20% of the trees and add 10% in random places, remove or move some buildings in a village. 20:40 MTDiscord Maps of those times were not precise, and, hey, you are looking at a 100 years old pirate map, how could they know how many trees grow here today? 20:41 MTDiscord Also, the map should be based on vanilla state of the world, not anything built by players, again, I don't know if that's implemented already. 21:07 erle x2048 i am a fan of honest design, which means i will not add something that is not there 21:08 erle x2048 however, the map is 80×80 for an 80×80×80 area, so you simply don't get all trees because i am checking for collisions before blitting icons on it 21:08 erle x2048 the map is based on the state of the world as it is at the creation of the map. anything else sounds unreasonable. 21:09 erle x2048 i think: if you create a map as a player, surely you want it to reflect your surroundings *at the time you make the map* 21:09 erle houses are only rendered if there are doors because i was lazy lol 21:11 MTDiscord This whole "honest design" thing sounds like you're trying to make there be some kind of moral implication to throwing away data that simply doesn't fit. 21:12 erle no no 21:12 erle i am making a moral implication to making up stuff to put it there 21:12 erle a friend wanted sea monsters in the sea 21:13 erle i will put them in when you *actually* have a sea monster in the game and it can be found in that lake, not otherwise 21:13 erle of course i throw away data that does not fit 21:14 erle say i have a field of flowers. each flower is two pixels with a 1px border around it. 21:14 MTDiscord It depends on whether you want the maps to be a technically accurate piece of information, or just a hint to orient the player but not necessarily something they can rely on. 21:14 erle so 1 flower looks the same as 3×4 flowers 21:14 erle but in the end, if a player looks for this thing and no one messed with it, they will find a flower 21:15 erle same for trees. obviously the blitting leaves out some trees or else a forest would just be a dark spot on the map 21:15 erle but if you go to a bunch of trees you find a bunch of trees 21:15 erle Warr1024 there is a difference between simply showing *less* and inventing new things 21:16 erle simplification is not a UX lie. putting stuff there that is not actually functional is a UX lie. 21:16 erle i find it super frustrating 21:17 erle Warr1024 i want the maps so that people who do not play mcl* games have a way to mark interesting spots on the map 21:17 MTDiscord Until fairly recently, maps were not a "UX" thing. In fact, UX was invented long after people stopped carrying swords and bows and arrows for personal defense. 21:18 erle because it's nicer than writing coordinates in a book and throwing it 21:18 Pexin what's the point of a map you can't rely on? 21:18 erle Pexin it's anti-bauhaus 21:18 erle this is a big trend in tech 21:19 erle the anti-bauhaus 21:19 MTDiscord I don't see how having decorative fringe on a thing makes it unreliable. 21:19 erle Warr1024 a border around the map would actually allow me to blit more icons at the border, so i'll consider it 21:19 Pexin i mean it's one thing when getting precise info is prohibitive. and it's another to deliberately fluff inaccuracy 21:19 erle yes 21:20 MTDiscord Pretty sure nobody is asking you to fluff inaccuracy 21:20 MTDiscord again, that's just your own moral stand against your own strawman 21:20 erle “remove 20% of the trees and add 10% in random places, remove or move some buildings in a village“ 21:20 Pexin of course, if you're going for a "castlevania 2" type of motif you skew so much info that whatever remains is total incoherent babble :] 21:20 erle that was a suggestion 21:20 MTDiscord Not one I heard about 21:21 erle x2048 posted it 40 minutes ago in this very chat 21:21 * Pexin does the graveyard duck 21:21 erle i'm totally down with showing fewer trees, as long as the idea “forest” is still there and as long as going to a tree symbol on a map puts you near a tree 21:21 MTDiscord Something like "don't render 50% of the trees that exist" would be a reasonable request, though, because it would allow you to represent density of the forest beyond that which you could otherwise do given the spacing limitations of your icons. 21:21 erle but i won't add random trees 21:21 MTDiscord adding random trees seems weird 21:22 MTDiscord well, given that trees actually mean something 21:22 erle you say weird, i say unjustified 21:22 erle that's the point! 21:22 erle symbols have meaning 21:22 MTDiscord adding a random sea monster to the water is a whatever, though, unless you also have sea monsters that actually DO represent something. 21:22 erle and for the same reason i will not add a random sea monster 21:22 erle because someone might look for it 21:22 erle i know that in repixture i looked for frogs 21:22 erle because the ambient sounds contain frog sounds i think 21:23 Pexin what if, in the future, monster spawn regions can be queried. and you want to indicate this is a lake where X monster can spawn 21:23 MTDiscord The sea monster thing is mostly moot because you just don't have enough pixel resolution to blend one into the waves. 21:23 MTDiscord I mean you wouldn't even really be able to make a thing that clearly says "sea monster" and not just "what is that blob" without running into the problem of it overlapping coastline 21:23 erle Warr1024 i have drawn hundreds of emoji for unifont, if i can stuff a dragon or an elephant or a whale into a 16×16 grid, i can do sea monsters on a pixelated map 21:23 MTDiscord A good embellishment should blend into the element it's embellishing without affecting its functional parts. 21:24 erle what if the ornament is a crime 21:24 erle Warr1024 can you read german? 21:25 erle https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Ornament_und_Verbrechen 21:25 erle > Ornament ist vergeudete arbeitskraft und dadurch vergeudete gesundheit. So war es immer. Heute bedeutet es [283] aber auch vergeudetes material, und beides bedeutet vergeudetes kapital. 21:25 erle this is, of course, hilarious 21:25 Pexin YOU are responsible for emoji!!?!? Ò_Ó 21:26 erle Pexin if you are using unifont, yes, you have seen my work. 21:27 erle Pexin http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/pics/icons/unifont-symbols-emoji.png 21:27 Pexin emoji are a poison upon communication.. *grumps in old man corner* 21:27 erle stuff likethis 21:27 erle well, they are there and i wanted a bunch of good monochrome emoji 21:28 erle contributing to unifont is very easy, the maintainer is nice 21:28 Pexin I will admit monochrome ..helps 21:28 MTDiscord Having emoji that look like they're actually part of the surrounding text and not just picture shoehorned in awkwardly sounds nice 21:28 erle i used it to make a roguelike with emoji for a 7 day roguelike contest 21:29 erle Warr1024 yeah also it is a bounding box thing. unifont has single-width and double-width characters and will never betray you like usual fonts do. 21:30 erle Warr1024 here you see: the noto emoji overlap each other, the unifont is just perfectly fitting the line https://mister-muffin.de/p/9SfA.png 21:30 MTDiscord The reason why emoji are always rendered so crappily is because if you just let the platform render them natively, then you end up with very different appearances (and consequently subtly different meanings) on different user's devices ... so platforms like Discord standardize to one set of images (e.g. twemoji) to ensure uniformity of presentation ... but then have to present the as inline embedded images instead of characters and thus 21:30 MTDiscord they don't fit stylistically anymore. 21:31 erle this is by the way why i want minetest to bundle unifont as a default font. it is the ONLY pixel font that can do this. 21:31 MTDiscord ...and of course platform-specific rendering isn't always done in a way that fits stylistically any better, anyway. 21:31 erle i actually was able to install unifont from a phone from the time before emoji and got emoji support 21:31 erle it was interesting 21:32 erle they obv just decoded utf-8 correctly 21:32 MTDiscord If unifont has good coverage of real languages, yeah, having nice emoji support would be good icing on the cake... 21:32 erle which is funny because plan9 from userspace has utf-8 bugs that i found only when i wanted emoji hehe 21:32 erle unifont is the only font i know which has the goal of covering the entirety of unicode 21:33 erle which is why by now there is unifont.ttf and unifont-upper.ttf because the TTF file format is unable to even store that many glyphs 21:33 MTDiscord IIRC doesn't Noto also have that goal, but as a proportional vector instead of bitmap font? 21:33 erle basically, every “good coverage” font that does not come in multiple TTFs (if it comes as a TTF) is a fraud 21:33 erle as far as i know, even parts of noto are massive though 21:34 erle i never heard of them having that goal btw 21:34 MTDiscord The name comes from "no tofu" 21:34 erle oh, wait 21:34 erle noto is like 100 fonts or so 21:34 erle yeah i guess if you install them *all* then you might get good coverage 21:34 MTDiscord yeah, it's a bit of a mess 21:35 erle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noto_fonts#Coverage 21:35 erle > As of 29 December 2020 there are 195 Noto fonts 21:35 erle clearly that is not good to deliver as a builtin 21:35 MTDiscord Presumably there were either size trade-offs or format limitations that didn't allow them to cram every language into one file for each face. 21:36 erle i think it's mostly that the glyphs are massive 21:36 MTDiscord We should basically use whatever (1) supports every language MT might want to support, and (2) does a decent job with other trade-offs like appearance and download size. 21:36 erle like, fonts-noto-color-emoji in debian is 10 MB installed 21:37 erle Warr1024 have another idea besides unifont? 21:37 MTDiscord TrueType isn't just pure vector data, but has all sorts of hints about how to fit stuff to pixel grids and what information to throw away when you're crammed into sufficiently small pixel sizes, so stuff can get tricky. 21:38 MTDiscord Until unifont, Noto was the only one I knew of that didn't discriminate against certain languages. 21:38 erle fonts-noto-cjk is … 90 MB installed if i am not mistaken 21:38 erle face it, if you install noto for even a reasonable subset, you are looking at hundreds of megabytes 21:39 MTDiscord For a system-wide thing, like shipping with an OS, that's not unreasonable. For MT though it might be a bit of a hard sell. 21:39 erle even for system-wide it is unreasonable if a font easily exceeds the size of the basic tools you installed. 21:39 erle it"s not like textures are free 21:39 MTDiscord I think MT's current stance is supporting what it can and then leaving users to go hunt down a custom font if what they want isn't in there ... I imagine Arimo would have to be comparable to Noto in size to get that kind of coverage 21:40 MTDiscord If I have an OS install that's less than 100MB, I probably don't hav ANY fonts installed anyway. 21:40 erle in fact, one of my favourite tricks for UI libraries that claim they support unicode is to set the font to unifont 21:40 erle you find out *really* quickly if they want to cache ALL the glyphs to fake performance 21:41 erle e.g. dear imgui is one of the libraries that just falls over if you try to actually do unicode stuff with it 21:43 erle Warr1024 you need some fonts. what are you going to rely on, bios graphics? 21:43 MTDiscord Oh, nice, I've made mistakes like that before, big fun. 21:43 erle one of my favourite sentences is “computers are fast” 21:44 erle like, when i rendered the map bitmap i also made a mistake that accidentally went exponential 21:44 MTDiscord Bios graphics, sure, maybe. Depends on whether the system is going to have to render text or not. Might just depend on whatever's installed on the client end of an ssh connection. 21:44 erle trying to figure out which trees not to render hehe 21:44 erle but because i am on a decent thinkpad (like an animal) it all worked out 21:44 erle i noticed immediately 21:46 erle Warr1024 back to maps, is there anything i can do to make it compatible with nodecore that would fit your aesthetics? 21:56 erle rubenwardy, btw, since you mentioned explorable maps once, if you can tell me *how* you would like them to be explored, tell please https://content.minetest.net/packages/erlehmann/xmaps/ 21:57 erle rubenwardy currently, the only thing i could come up with that does not fill client RAM is rendering a bunch of bitmaps and then overlaying them to construct the “revealed” map. 21:57 rubenwardy I'm not really interested 21:57 erle ah ok 21:57 rubenwardy there's no need to ping me about it, I'm busy 21:57 rubenwardy sorry 21:57 erle sorry then 21:58 erle i just thought maybe you had a better idea than “reveal it in 16×16 units like a puzzle for small children” 22:26 wsor erle: why are you asking 22:27 erle wsor because i have seen vastly different review standards in the minetest ecosystem. from “i stepped through all of it in a debugger” up to “yeah just delete those 200k lines i don't care”. 22:28 erle and i wondered, what i can do before to make it easier for a QA person 22:28 wsor then im not answering, because you will use it for politics 22:28 erle uh, how can i use a review standard for politics? 22:29 wsor now making it easier for approval, i can answer, (having a source is prefered), make sure it has a license file, matches whats on cdb, make sure your not stealing any mc assets, citing anything thats needed, and no name conflicts 22:29 erle yes 22:29 erle i do all that 22:29 erle i renamed maps to xmaps because the name was taken 22:29 wsor never said you didnt 22:30 wsor oh, you asked you specifically 22:30 erle i meant that as in “i already do all that” 22:30 wsor sorry, i was replying in general 22:30 erle so i wonder if i am missing something 22:30 erle that is ideally super easy 22:30 erle (like adding a LICENSE file or so) 22:30 wsor na, your stuff is typically fine (other than flirting with the being relevant on a couple), and terrible choice in licenses :P 22:31 erle it's kinda funny, the most popular thing (leaves made out of 4 crosses) is the one that i put the least effort into 22:32 erle 3 crosses 22:32 wsor i know that feeling 22:32 erle regarding “flirting with being relevant”, i try to solve problems that have not been solved 22:32 wsor unless you gracefully shill your stuff (cough ceejo), your going to get stuff randomly popular and others not 22:33 erle shill, like advertise it on forums? 22:33 erle i made a forum thread for some of my stuff and … *tumbleweed* 22:33 erle irc is much better for feedback it seems 22:33 erle and private messages ofc 22:34 erle now i have to look up ceejo hehe 22:34 erle https://content.minetest.net/users/ElCeejo/ this one ig 22:34 erle wsor what is your “randomly popular but i didn't even think much of it” mod? 22:35 wsor more like a game, minekart 22:35 wsor made as a joke, for screwing around 22:35 wsor havent touched it in a while 22:36 wsor ironically wuzzy (who never reads there notifications) was dumb enough to review it as a game jam submission when it wasnt as well 22:37 erle oh lol i see https://content.minetest.net/packages/wsor4035/minekart/ 22:37 wsor https://content.minetest.net/threads/1908/ 22:37 erle i wouldn't say “dumb”, but i find it indeed funny 22:38 erle 4× unhelpful 22:38 erle okay that made me laugh 22:39 wsor speaking of wuzzy, yay they finally got of there ancient/terrible git host 22:41 erle wsor during reviews, to what amount do you care about architecture? or is it only observable side effects that matter? 22:41 MTDiscord Terrible stuff, fork AGPL software and you'll have to make that all "interactive user interfaces, each must display Appropriate Legal Notices". I wonder how many actually did this :p 22:43 MTDiscord afk a bit 22:43 erle SX i guess i should probably add a command to each of my mods that makes it easier 22:44 erle SX would that help? 22:44 erle i guess i can just send the modified source via dynamic media :D 22:44 MTDiscord Yes it would as "if the Program has interactive interfaces that do not display Appropriate Legal Notices, your work need not make them do so." 22:44 erle as tar.gz 22:45 erle haha i guess i have a new stupid mod idea 22:45 erle a library for AGPL mods that adds a command to receive the mod as a tarball 22:46 erle or a zip or so 22:47 MTDiscord compress + base64 + formspec editor :p 22:50 erle a very long data: URI 23:06 MTDiscord It is kinda sad had to cancel using or working on things with few mods because of AGPL, too many conflicts and makes things extremely complicated... was it also some distro packaging that got stuck because of AGPL licenses? I think it was for debian 23:09 MTDiscord Is there better alternatives that would ensure availability of modification while at the same time not being crap? Not sure if good enough license compatibility is possible, maybe it is somehow? 23:17 MTDiscord Would expect that there is as it seems it would be just small update to GPL binary distribution requirement, AGPL was just bit too aggressive with it. GPL only lacks "providing access to interface"-clause? 23:21 erle in the case of minetest, as i have said before, the software is run on the server. i want people to be obligated to share their changes. 23:21 erle a simple chat message with a link would make that possible. 23:22 MTDiscord So GPL only lacks "providing access to interface"-clause? 23:22 erle the question is, what you want to achieve 23:22 erle is it maximum software freedom for those who get your software? 23:22 MTDiscord want people to be obligated to share their changes. 23:22 erle or is it maximum spread? 23:22 MTDiscord but without crap requirements and license incompatibility 23:23 erle well, in the context of minetest i use agpl because i have connected to servers that *did not* share their changes 23:24 erle what do you worry with license compatibility? 23:24 erle https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-compatibility.html 23:24 MTDiscord I mean I asked if anyone knows if GPL would be enough if just binary distribution requirement (which requires you to distribute sources) would include "providing access to interface"-clause that is in AGPL but without AGPL problems. 23:24 erle > We say that a license A subsumes license B when compliance with license A implies compliance with license B. 23:25 erle > Any GNU license, version N, subsumes the Apache 2.0 license provided N is at least 3. 23:25 erle stuff like that 23:25 erle SX what AGPL problems do you mean? you can combine AGPL software with a lot of things 23:25 MTDiscord I do not worry as I do not use it but debian packagers told that they cannot package those because of license incompatibility with GPL, I've no experience with that. 23:26 erle oh tell me more 23:26 erle do you have something i can read? 23:26 erle like a mailing list thread 23:27 MTDiscord So mod packaging was not done, only discussed for few years. GitHub issue trackers. 23:27 erle the most common incompatible license is GPL-2-only 23:28 MTDiscord I do not remember all mods but worldedit is one of those but they on some issue duscussion they explained that their lawyers have decided it and it is in their rule book or something, not interpretation.of single packager. 23:29 erle SX i would suggest GPLv3 or later for copyleft if you do not want AGPLv3, look at this https://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3-compatibility.png 23:29 erle but you really need to understand their reasoning 23:29 erle to figure out *what* is the problem there 23:29 MTDiscord (I actually checked some offcicial debian sources too when I did read that stuff maybe year ago) 23:29 erle like maybe they have something that is indeed GPL-2-only 23:29 erle then GPL-3-or-later does not cut it 23:30 erle or maybe they use CDDL or whatever 23:33 MTDiscord Long time since I've read that stuff but I think they were talking about GPL incompatibilities, all that can be found from github anyway as that's how I found it. There was at least 2 different mods with lengthy discussion (without crap, explaining things pretty well). 23:42 MTDiscord I think problem was not license itself as is but something about packaging it together with other mods 23:43 MTDiscord Oh, one of those mods was technic 23:47 MTDiscord And indeed there request was to use GPLv2+ "allowing the AGPL-compatible GPL-3" 23:51 MTDiscord For what I was thinking about when asking about possible midway (requirement to offer sources if interface is made available to user) between GPL and AGPL was nicely put in one of those discussions too "To actually implement the A part of the AGPL clauses often turns out surprisingly hard."