Time Nick Message 00:00 RhineDevil Would be bad, of course 00:00 Gustavo6046 It's not inherently bad, it's just too dangerous, because of what it can do as a tool if it gets in the hands of the wrong people. 00:00 Gustavo6046 All tools are like that. 00:00 RhineDevil Yeah I get what you think 00:00 Gustavo6046 Computers too can do pretty iffy stuff in the hands of the wrong people. Then again that didn't stop us from making a lot of good things using computers too. 00:00 RhineDevil But I still believe in his potential, like I believe in the potential of all things if they are in proper hands 00:02 Gustavo6046 Yeah. 00:02 RhineDevil Anyway I don't have any faith 00:03 RhineDevil And I think anyone saying the gears of history are bringing us to an era of collectivism is an utter fool 00:05 RhineDevil Gustavo6046: but you know what gave me the idea that there's no hope? 00:05 RhineDevil *do you know 00:07 Gustavo6046 Hm? 00:07 Gustavo6046 And I think anyone saying the gears of history are bringing us to an era of collectivism is an utter fool 00:07 Gustavo6046 It only takes revolt. But the people won't wake up. 00:08 RhineDevil Gustavo6046: people won't even revolt, or at least not for stuff that matters and not for long time 00:08 RhineDevil And that is because the human brain is fundamentally flawed 00:08 RhineDevil We're not so different from chimps 00:08 Gustavo6046 I disagree 00:08 Gustavo6046 I think it's because the modern system requires people's time and energy be spent into it in order for them to make a living. 00:09 Gustavo6046 So they never EVEN get the opportunity to learn about why we should revolt to begin with. 00:09 Gustavo6046 And when others revolt, they see it as an unnecessary disruption of the order and peace. "Why don't they just, you know, vote or something?" 00:10 Gustavo6046 It'll never occur to them that the system is deeply, deeply flawed. And it's not their fault. They just have no energy to think deeply and research about these things. 00:10 RhineDevil Gustavo6046: My idea is that you think like this because the situation in your country is different 00:10 Gustavo6046 Uh, not really. If anything, Brazil is becoming more and more like the US. 00:10 Gustavo6046 We used to be more in the left. 00:10 RhineDevil Well, Lula wasn't a great example of left in first place... 00:11 RhineDevil By the way I'm not from US 00:11 RhineDevil But I know what you mean about slowly transformating in US 00:11 Gustavo6046 I'm sure he tried. 00:11 Gustavo6046 And he's still, like, leagues better than Bolsonaro;. 00:11 RhineDevil I'm not so sure about it 00:12 RhineDevil And anyway being better than Bolsonaro doesn't require great effort 00:14 RhineDevil By the way Gustavo6046, you think like this because your country is more plagued by insane working rhythms than consumerism 00:15 RhineDevil If and when Brazil will become more wealthy, you'll see people's minds being plagued more by the new useless product than working fatigue 00:15 RhineDevil But they won't listen anyway 00:16 Gustavo6046 RhineDevil, we have consumerism too 00:16 Gustavo6046 the United States has the same issues though 00:16 Gustavo6046 shitty work conditions and consumerism 00:16 Gustavo6046 but they're worse there 00:16 RhineDevil I know that 00:16 Gustavo6046 and it's not a different ratio of working fatigue to consumerism that is relveant here 00:16 Gustavo6046 although I do agree that consumerism is rising here 00:17 RhineDevil But as I said, if they won't listen you for one reason, they won't listen you for another 00:17 RhineDevil And that is because human mind is flawed and easily exploitable 00:21 RhineDevil btw Gustavo6046 do you know a bit about how to use latex? 00:21 RhineDevil maybe I can kill two birds with one stone... 00:21 Gustavo6046 not very 00:22 Gustavo6046 But as I said, if they won't listen you for one reason, they won't listen you for another 00:22 Gustavo6046 they might not listen to you if you invite them to a dance club, but they'll listen if you invite them to get lapdanced 12:58 kabou erlehmann: I have added a comment to wuzzy's PR #11391 as you suggested 12:58 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11391 -- Add support for static boxes in 'leveled' type; add node box types 'leveled_plantlike[_rooted]' by Wuzzy2 13:01 erlehmann yay 13:03 erlehmann kabou the texture bit is very useful, because wuzzy only thought of cauldrons 13:04 kabou yup 13:04 erlehmann still, support for leveled nodeboxes would reduce your composter's node count from 9 (?) to 3 13:04 erlehmann oh btw 13:04 kabou and it would be useful to have on the existing leveled nodeboxes as much as on his static version 13:04 erlehmann i think mcl_dyes is not an optional dependency 13:04 erlehmann because you return white dye a.k.a. bonemeal 13:05 erlehmann the whole thing is useless without bonemeal existing 13:05 erlehmann i'd make it a hard dependency 13:05 kabou hmm 13:05 erlehmann oh you did 13:05 erlehmann nevermind! 13:05 erlehmann only doc is optional 13:05 erlehmann sorry 13:06 kabou nevermind 13:06 erlehmann oh btw 13:06 erlehmann _compost_level 13:06 erlehmann should be 13:06 erlehmann _mcl_compost_level probably 13:07 kabou in fact I think that when attributes are prefixed with mcl_ the _ is redundant 13:07 kabou minetest is unlikely to add engine native attributes starting with mcl_ 13:07 erlehmann look i just looked at the existing ones 13:08 kabou so did I, but then I had a think about it 13:08 erlehmann consistency is more important in this case 13:08 erlehmann *all* existing nodes are prefixed with _mcl_ 13:09 erlehmann i mean all existing node attributes 13:09 kabou well i will change it then 13:09 erlehmann i just checked 13:09 kabou but i still think that it ought to be mcl_ everywhere 13:09 erlehmann yep, it's all of them 13:09 kabou instead of _mcl_ 13:09 erlehmann you can think that but … 13:09 erlehmann this would ruin compatibility with all mods that rely on this 13:10 erlehmann some mods are not in the base games 13:10 erlehmann but are on contentdb 13:10 erlehmann and work in mcl2 mcla mcl5 for various definitions of work 13:10 erlehmann your composter could be on contentdb too, to work with older versions 13:10 erlehmann you gain nothing my ripping out the underscore 13:10 erlehmann except for incompatibilities 13:10 erlehmann it is like referer in web 13:11 erlehmann the correct english word is referrer 13:11 erlehmann but people only noticed after the spec was published 13:11 erlehmann so it had to sty 13:11 erlehmann stay 13:11 erlehmann problem? 13:11 erlehmann i think not 13:11 erlehmann also: the fact that it is _mcl_ everywhere so far implies that everyone else working on the code found it important to keep it that way. there are many cases in mcl2 for example where code is *not* consistent because people disagree. 13:12 erlehmann but this is not one of those cases 13:12 kabou just have web 2.0 that fixes all the typos in web 1.0 13:12 erlehmann is it really a typo if it works? 13:12 kabou instead of a cess pit of javascript 13:12 erlehmann i mean we still have creat() 13:12 erlehmann creat sysall is missing an e 13:13 kabou that is because of memory scarcity on ancient unix machines 13:13 kabou not a typo 14:11 erlehmann https://ubiquity.acm.org/article.cfm?id=1513451 14:11 erlehmann > Observation #6: Software engineers have been led to believe that their time is more valuable than CPU time; therefore, wasting CPU cycles in order to reduce development time is always a win. They've forgotten, however, that the application users' time is more valuable than their time. 14:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6 -- Apples on the trees can not be eaten 14:12 erlehmann > Observation #8: The most fundamental rule software engineers cite when performance is a concern is "choosing the proper algorithm is far more important than any amount of (micro-) optimization you can do to your code." This ignores the fact that a better algorithm might not be available or may be difficult to discover or implement. In any case, this is not a good excuse for creating a poor implementation of any algorithm. 14:12 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/8 -- Saplings + Growing Trees by MarkTraceur 15:21 Gustavo6046 Alright, who do I add as a contributor to my MineClone 5 fork so they can work on the branches too? 15:21 Gustavo6046 The branches here are item-physics, improve/hoppers, improve/fishing, improve/creepers. 15:21 Gustavo6046 See https://git.minetest.land/Gustavo6046/MineClone5 15:24 Gustavo6046 I guess I can add Cora and erlehmann for two. 15:26 kabou Gustavo: here's a quick fix for mcl_hoppers/init.lua : use get_item_group(nodename, "container") in 4 places 15:27 kabou it now does bare access to eg. minetest.registered_nodes[abovenode.name].groups.container 15:29 Gustavo6046 hmm? 15:30 Gustavo6046 ahh 15:30 Gustavo6046 kabou, what is the difference? 15:31 kabou well it is the proper way to do it, using the appropriate accessor method 15:31 kabou leaves minetest at liberty to change the groups implementation 15:32 kabou mcl_util uses the use_item_group as well 15:32 kabou too bad there is no accessor method for the other node def attributes 15:32 kabou would be nice if there were 15:33 kabou but the groups attribute is special, since minetest engine uses it for all kinds of purposes 15:33 kabou then again same can be said for othe attributes 15:33 kabou whatever 15:34 Gustavo6046 ahh 15:47 erlehmann Gustavo6046 i will help you with feedback of course, but ultimately, i am pretty sure cora and me would be happy if this stuff would end up in mineclone2 & mineclonia respectively 15:47 Gustavo6046 hmm 15:47 Gustavo6046 you'll have to do cherrypicks then, sorry 15:47 erlehmann of course, will do 15:48 erlehmann just don't depend on whatever kay27 does too much please 15:48 erlehmann he is really all speed lately, making features 15:48 erlehmann only wondering if he could, not if he should ^^ 15:48 erlehmann i believe his mapgen work is excellent from a technical perspective, but really risky because he uses mod storage 15:48 erlehmann he knows the bugs himself 15:49 erlehmann i think it would be better if he would work on fixing mapgen in minetest, but i doubt they want him as a core developer 15:49 MTDiscord which bugs? 15:49 erlehmann mapgen griefing for example 15:49 MTDiscord how's that related to mod storage? 15:49 erlehmann or the mapgen invoking lua callbacks several times 15:49 MTDiscord JSON-based mod storage was pretty sucky, but now with SQLite it should be better 15:49 erlehmann griefing existing worlds 15:50 erlehmann luatic so kay27 made a mapgen implementation in lua that saves which mapblocks are partially generated in mod storage 15:50 erlehmann you probably can see the issue there 15:50 erlehmann he has a *very* good grasp of mapgen bugs 15:51 erlehmann better than almost everyone i know 15:51 erlehmann and he has a solution, but in lua it is slow, dangerous, and if you ever lose mod storage, well, i bet it grinds parts of your world to a fine dust by overwriting 15:51 erlehmann he has a few good points with his subgenerator idea 15:52 erlehmann but in general, it is hard to get him to take feedback seriously 15:52 erlehmann and well, you can look in the “cursed minetest” screenshots thread 15:52 erlehmann for the error cases if the server crashes 15:52 erlehmann or you lose mod storage 15:53 erlehmann luatic look at what he did in mineclone5, it is really impressive from a technical perspective, but super impractical 15:53 erlehmann it should be done in minetest engine core tbh 15:53 erlehmann i mean he probably agrees, since he is overwriting an engine function with his lua implementnation 15:53 erlehmann implementation 15:53 MTDiscord why would it be particularly slow in Lua? 15:54 MTDiscord anything at a mapblock level shouldn't really matter for performance in relation to generating the 16^3 nodes for the mapblock 15:54 erlehmann just look at the code. you will surely find more bugs than i did. 15:54 MTDiscord hmm 15:54 erlehmann the problem is the mapblock shell chunk grinder feature 15:54 MTDiscord time to write a database in Lua 15:54 erlehmann ever had cavegen dig a hole in your map? 15:54 erlehmann or in your bedrock? 15:54 erlehmann or in your void lol? 15:54 erlehmann or in your house? 15:55 erlehmann i believe some time back kay27 made an easy demonstration 15:55 erlehmann a lua mapgen that placed some nodes in a regular grid 15:55 erlehmann like 8 nodes apart or so 15:55 erlehmann you can really easily see when some are missing 15:55 erlehmann because of mapgen griefing 16:04 Gustavo6046 he is really all speed lately, making features 16:04 Gustavo6046 only wondering if he could, not if he should ^^ 16:05 Gustavo6046 if it's in Minecraft, then I'd say he should, yes 16:05 Gustavo6046 or if it's an addition which does not 'interfere destructively' with existing Minecraft-analogue ones 16:06 erlehmann have you seen the maps discussion? 16:06 erlehmann fleckenstein researched maps, made them cool 16:06 erlehmann i made them even better, but kayß27 was like “let's center them on the player” 16:06 erlehmann which obviously breaks maps in item frames 16:06 Gustavo6046 https://git.minetest.land/MineClone5/MineClone5/pulls/181 16:06 erlehmann he is really uninformed 16:06 Gustavo6046 oops 16:06 Gustavo6046 wrong window 16:07 Gustavo6046 I was talking elsewhere about entity forces 16:07 erlehmann https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues/1986 16:07 Gustavo6046 18<erlehmann18> i made them even better, but kayß27 was like “let's center them on the player” 16:07 Gustavo6046 is that the kind of behaviour you'd see in Minecraft? 16:07 Gustavo6046 no I don't think it is 16:12 Gustavo6046 erlehmann, if the behaviour is not consistent with what would happen in Minecraft, then it should be changed so that it is; in this case I think it'd be nice to also have two alternative opt-in modes of operation, a "player-centered" one where the map is centered on the player, and a "hybrid" one where it only is that way when it's not on an item frame. 16:13 erlehmann Gustavo6046 look, i have done a *lot* of work on mcl_maps and the player-centered thing is really hard to do. 16:13 erlehmann you basically can not make map art with it 16:14 Gustavo6046 I get what you mean 16:14 Gustavo6046 the latter part 16:14 Gustavo6046 the former, I'll trust you 16:14 erlehmann i mean, yes, would be nice to have, but you can't have both 16:14 erlehmann eiher you have map art and maps on walls etc. 16:14 Gustavo6046 > he is really uninformed 16:14 erlehmann or you have player centered maps 16:14 Gustavo6046 he also is Russian and suffers from a language barrier 16:15 erlehmann i know but 16:15 erlehmann fleckenstein explained before why the changes to maps are not improvements 16:15 Gustavo6046 and I have a feeling he never really invested that much time learning about the technicalities of image formats, for one 16:15 erlehmann and it is in this case because minecraft actually has it engineered very carefully 16:15 erlehmann haha 16:15 erlehmann few people do 16:16 erlehmann kay27 sees something that does not make sense immediately and is like “here i make something better” 16:16 Gustavo6046 I don't know the technicalities, but I do have a rough overview of which situations certain image formats are best suited for 16:16 Gustavo6046 PNG is really good for lossless compression, especially for stuff like pixel art. PNG indexed mode is criminally underrated 16:16 erlehmann i am more of a “only remove the thing once you know why it was put there” type of person 16:16 Gustavo6046 TGA is an old format but it's probably ok 16:16 erlehmann Gustavo6046 read the whole discussion please. what i want from TGA is minimal overhead reding and writing 16:16 Gustavo6046 JPEG is good for pictures, though it may be superseded any time now by video-codecs-turned-image-codecs like AV1 or VP9. 16:17 Gustavo6046 Why do you even want to use an image format to begin with? 16:17 erlehmann jpeg is good enough, see webp (which is advertised as better, but turned out to be a marketing scam) 16:17 Gustavo6046 Just store raw. 16:17 erlehmann again, TGA is basically an 18 pixel header and then a) raw pixels b) colormap (palette) indexes c) RLE pixels 16:17 erlehmann whatever you want 16:18 erlehmann it's the easiest format to write and read that is still useful (i.e. has B8G8R8A8 and A1R5G5B5 and colormap support) 16:18 Gustavo6046 uh 16:18 erlehmann there is no other format that gets you that close to dumping raw pixels 16:18 Gustavo6046 a and c both at once? 16:18 erlehmann which is still supported 16:19 erlehmann Gustavo6046 i have indeed modified my RLE encoder so that it uses rle and raw packets, saves a bit of overhead 16:19 Gustavo6046 o.o 16:19 Gustavo6046 modifying standard code and hacking everything!!!11one is for nurd weirdos :P 16:20 erlehmann i am a bit sick of this discussion, but just look in irrlichtmt at the tga decoder 16:20 erlehmann you'll see why it is good for random pixel editing via memset() 16:20 Gustavo6046 nurd wierdos who play with making cool computer networks in their homes and write their own bootable kernels for the sake of it!! 16:20 Gustavo6046 but yeah 16:20 Gustavo6046 I can see why TGA is so workable 16:20 Gustavo6046 But why do you need a format... at all? 16:20 Gustavo6046 Are you writing to disk??? 16:21 erlehmann basically: if your game texture is very small, needs to be edited often or load *really* fast (like memcpy), use TGA. else, use PNG. 16:21 erlehmann or if you want to avoid reading and writing overhead 16:21 Gustavo6046 the overhead in either case is minimal, so even a difference of 400% is negligible when up to scale 16:22 erlehmann not really 16:22 Gustavo6046 This would be less negligible if we were talking about mid-90s computers, You know, the kind where you'd need a FPU to be able to even run Quake. 16:22 Gustavo6046 But Minetest wasn't made for those, was it now :) 16:22 erlehmann look, just read the discussion please 16:22 Gustavo6046 You're never going to make it work on very old computers. 16:23 erlehmann and then try to write the code yourself 16:23 Gustavo6046 Never ever ever ever ever. 16:23 Gustavo6046 erlehmann, write what code? 16:23 erlehmann to write and read various image formats in lua 16:24 erlehmann ofc, fleckenstein. luatic and me have already done that several times 16:24 erlehmann but really, it is education to try it at least yourself a bit 16:24 erlehmann anyways, i'm off 16:24 Gustavo6046 in lua? ehh 16:24 Gustavo6046 i think i'll pass. 16:24 erlehmann see 16:24 erlehmann but we need to do it in lua 16:24 Gustavo6046 no we don't 16:24 erlehmann how would you write a map? 16:25 Gustavo6046 simple, I won't 16:25 erlehmann see, but i do. 16:25 erlehmann fleck did. 16:25 Gustavo6046 good on you, bud 16:25 Gustavo6046 good luck with that 16:25 Gustavo6046 I have nothing to do with that 16:25 erlehmann kay27 did, but differently. 16:25 Gustavo6046 then make a pull request on mcl5 16:25 erlehmann i think some other mods did too 16:25 erlehmann mcl5 *already* has the changes in that everyone except kay27 thought were not appropriate i think? 16:25 Gustavo6046 I think a good MineClone mod should have the target version simply be the latest stable version of Minecraft, but at the same time a better structure of PR approval 16:25 erlehmann maybe not 16:26 Gustavo6046 inb4 mcl4 lol 16:26 erlehmann mineclone42 16:26 erlehmann please can you call your own version mineclone6046 do it 16:26 Gustavo6046 xD 16:26 erlehmann ^^ 16:26 Gustavo6046 nah 16:27 Gustavo6046 a long time ago when I was a kid I tried to make a YouTube account 16:27 erlehmann anyways, look at my maps stuff 16:27 Gustavo6046 since Gustavo was taken it suggested me 3 names 16:27 Gustavo6046 one of them was Gustavo6046 16:27 erlehmann if you want to see better maps 16:27 Gustavo6046 and I took it because "there was a bunch of round numbers" 16:27 erlehmann with markers (right click on banner) 16:27 Gustavo6046 ...yeah 16:28 Gustavo6046 erlehmann, I'm more concerned with more tangible gameplay mechanics, which can lead to emergent gameplay. For instance, water pushing mobs. Something so simple, and yet it has become vital in an uncountable number of machines and builds over at Minecraft. 16:28 Gustavo6046 I think maps are boring. 16:28 Gustavo6046 But I don't think they don't deserve to be developed to be consistent with Minecraft as well. 16:28 Gustavo6046 They definitely should, all effort is honourable effort. 16:28 Gustavo6046 (as long as it's in the right direction) 16:29 Gustavo6046 Why should we define a right direction? Why not take all of them? Isn't that just defining some config settings and maintaining multiple versions of the same code, then spending extra hours of pain in front of a debugger when something weird happens in any of them? 16:29 Gustavo6046 Imagine switching between different core-gameplay settings in the very middle of a game. 16:29 Gustavo6046 That would definitely break stuff lol 16:29 Gustavo6046 'kay27 mode activate' 16:37 erlehmann Gustavo6046 https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/pulls/170 16:37 erlehmann try it 16:39 Gustavo6046 ehh 16:39 erlehmann well then not 16:39 Gustavo6046 I'm reading about TIFF and PackBits 16:39 erlehmann oh no, you entered the rabbit hole 16:39 erlehmann see you in 2 weeks or 3 16:39 erlehmann :P 16:39 erlehmann when you know all about image file formats 16:39 Gustavo6046 lol 16:40 Gustavo6046 o.o 16:40 Gustavo6046 TIFF Walsh matrix 16:40 Gustavo6046 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aicp_homescreen.0x3333-to-0x3334.rerender.tif 16:46 Gustavo6046 oo 16:46 Gustavo6046 what if the graphics were SVGs? 16:47 Gustavo6046 well, maybe not SVGs per se, having everything be a bunch of tiny XML documents is a bit scary 16:47 Gustavo6046 but you know what I mean 17:18 Gustavo6046 erlehmann, still not sure why you want to store map images in disk 17:39 Gustavo6046 M E 17:39 Gustavo6046 S E 17:41 MTDiscord ME 17:41 MTDiscord SE 17:46 definitelya Means month in Italian. :P 17:50 MTDiscord huh, really? 17:54 definitelya yup 18:11 Gustavo6046 in Portuguese it's mês for singular and meses for plural 18:14 definitelya Cool! 18:18 Gustavo6046 :D 18:19 ghoti Heya. I use a copy of DiamondPlane/jail that I've had around for a while. The original source disappeared from github; anyone know if it moved to a new home? Or is there now no longer an upstream to push changes to? 20:17 lagash ghoti: perhaps it moved to another forge? 23:33 erlehmann get your gamepads ready, we have rumble support now https://git.minetest.land/Li0n_2/rumble 23:42 erlehmann rubenwardy, take note! 23:42 erlehmann this works very well so far 23:43 erlehmann but it did make my friend go “hit me with an axe” 23:43 erlehmann (to test it) 23:43 erlehmann our next idea is to synchronize it with tnt explosion