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| 16:24 |
Gustavo6046 |
is there LOD so far away blocks are 'merged'? |
| 16:24 |
Gustavo6046 |
like clumps of 2x2, then of 4x4 blocks |
| 16:25 |
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| 16:25 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 this is so far off the way rendering is done according to my understanding it's not even funny |
| 16:25 |
erlehmann |
:D |
| 16:26 |
erlehmann |
you only get mipmapping afaik |
| 16:26 |
erlehmann |
and fog |
| 16:26 |
erlehmann |
everything far away is behind fog lol |
| 16:27 |
sfan5 |
Gustavo6046: there is no LOD, no |
| 16:27 |
erlehmann |
i don't even think it would make sense to add some LOD calculation, given what i know about rendering |
| 16:27 |
erlehmann |
it would basically be a visual effect |
| 16:27 |
rubenwardy |
Minetest used to have such a feature, it was called far map |
| 16:27 |
rubenwardy |
well |
| 16:28 |
rubenwardy |
the version in Minetest was based on a terrain map. There was an unmerged branch by celeron55 which used LOD |
| 16:28 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 you would probalby not merge nodes in the world, but rather make far away stuff a mesh |
| 16:29 |
erlehmann |
and work on that |
| 16:29 |
sfan5 |
if you think "nodes" and "meshes" are different things you knowledge about rendering is indeed off |
| 16:29 |
sfan5 |
+r |
| 16:29 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 a single mesh |
| 16:29 |
erlehmann |
and then reduce that |
| 16:29 |
sfan5 |
a mesh is not an atomic unit |
| 16:29 |
erlehmann |
basically the primitive is not “clumps of 2x2x2 nodes” |
| 16:30 |
erlehmann |
that's what i mean |
| 16:30 |
sfan5 |
a mesh is not a primitive either |
| 16:30 |
rubenwardy |
nodes are already combined into a single mesh (per mapblock?) |
| 16:30 |
erlehmann |
then 2x2 blocks |
| 16:31 |
erlehmann |
i am p sure mapblock mesh is a thing |
| 16:33 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy src/client/mapblock_mesh.cpp |
| 16:33 |
rubenwardy |
... |
| 16:33 |
rubenwardy |
I'm aware |
| 16:33 |
Gustavo6046 |
ahh |
| 16:34 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, but the further away it is, the less it should really matter how much detail you have, that's the very idea of LOD. |
| 16:34 |
Gustavo6046 |
Mipmapping is good, but it isn't there for performance, and I don't think it really helps all that much? |
| 16:34 |
Gustavo6046 |
Unless you used solid colour or something? I don't know. |
| 16:34 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 is this a performance or an ambience thing? |
| 16:35 |
Gustavo6046 |
Hmm? |
| 16:35 |
erlehmann |
do you want level of detail so you can view further without the game going down to 2fps? |
| 16:35 |
erlehmann |
or as a neat effect for mountain ranges? |
| 16:36 |
erlehmann |
i mean undoubtedly minetest crawls to a halt once you show too many mapblocks at once |
| 16:36 |
erlehmann |
but i rarely *have* to see that far |
| 16:37 |
erlehmann |
usually only when i died and wanna get my bearings from the respawn point, i quickly turn on unlimited rendering distance |
| 16:37 |
erlehmann |
to figure out which way to walk |
| 16:37 |
erlehmann |
as the mapblocks are still loaded |
| 16:37 |
erlehmann |
in the client |
| 16:37 |
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| 16:38 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy celeron55 what made the far map thing so bad it was scrapped? |
| 16:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> Just because something may not be good for you isnt a excuse to paramat it |
| 16:40 |
rubenwardy |
paramat had nothing to do with it |
| 16:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> I never said that they did |
| 16:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> I was refering to there behavior when addressing erlehmann |
| 16:41 |
erlehmann |
look if you want me to stop being a dumbo, please try to tell it so that a dumbo can understand it |
| 16:41 |
erlehmann |
bc i have no idea what you mean |
| 16:52 |
celeron55 |
erlehmann: there have been two versions of the far map, the first one was released in the very early days and was removed before 0.3 (IIRC), it was based on a heightmap and was way too rough and inaccurate, and also completely static |
| 16:52 |
celeron55 |
the second one is available as a branch in my repo, i left it in WIP state and it was never merged upstream, it's more of a LOD thing |
| 16:52 |
celeron55 |
an* |
| 16:54 |
celeron55 |
it was left unmerged in the hopes that rendering would be sped up otherwise so that it wouldn't be needed. of course that doesn't apply to the old hardware you are using, it won't be able to render further, but more modern hardware can if the rendering is optimized for more modern hardware |
| 16:55 |
celeron55 |
then there's the network bandwidth and the amount of generation and processing the server has to do (and stuff it has to keep in memory), which is a more complicated matter |
| 16:56 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 so how would a LOD-reduced mapblock be sent to the client? full data? |
| 16:56 |
erlehmann |
oh you mentioned it hehe |
| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
all in all, it's very difficult to come up with a definite solution that satisfies the needs of people and hardware |
| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
in my LOD thing it's reduced on the server side |
| 16:57 |
erlehmann |
given what i have seen on irrlicht capabilities recently (particles and shadows), i find it a bit hard to believe that hardware is the bottleneck |
| 16:57 |
celeron55 |
freeing bandwidth and client resources |
| 16:57 |
erlehmann |
oh yeah, now that you are here, can you tell me what did not work out when someone inevitably tried to make particles batched? |
| 16:57 |
erlehmann |
ig they have to be sorted in some way |
| 16:58 |
erlehmann |
but i am not aware of any aborted attempts to do it |
| 16:58 |
celeron55 |
haven't been following anything particle related |
| 17:01 |
sfan5 |
related https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/8461 |
| 17:02 |
celeron55 |
hecks experimented with some LOD / horizont drawing stuff, but he decided it's important first to optimize the basic node rendering for the hardware that would be capable of rendering a lot of more nodes |
| 17:02 |
rubenwardy |
agreed |
| 17:02 |
celeron55 |
-t |
| 17:03 |
celeron55 |
it makes sense to me... but if it's not done, then nothing gets done in that topic |
| 17:03 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 this seems promising |
| 17:03 |
erlehmann |
thanks |
| 17:04 |
sfan5 |
it seems |
| 17:05 |
sfan5 |
if it was promising it would've been merged |
| 17:05 |
sfan5 |
(usually) |
| 17:05 |
erlehmann |
well it breaks vertical particles |
| 17:06 |
erlehmann |
though i do not understand yet why |
| 17:06 |
erlehmann |
> The changed properties require a change in the network protocol |
| 17:06 |
erlehmann |
lol |
| 17:07 |
erlehmann |
i remember that way way back someone wanted to make a rain thing for minetest-delta |
| 17:07 |
erlehmann |
but never cleared up their whitespace or something |
| 17:07 |
erlehmann |
just dumped the PR there and well, didn't get merged lol |
| 17:13 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 regarding LOD, i appreciate how much smoke and mirrors good games are. you probably read the “rendering a city” article series way back, did you? |
| 17:15 |
erlehmann |
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3166 |
| 17:15 |
erlehmann |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d2-PtK4F6Y |
| 17:15 |
erlehmann |
this one |
| 17:15 |
erlehmann |
i bet a lot of you know it |
| 17:16 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 if the “change the network protocol” parts are cut out of the PR you linked, how salvage-able do you think it may be? |
| 17:16 |
erlehmann |
does the vertical thing present an insurmountable obstacle? |
| 17:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Ironically smoke and mirrors are themselves things that games have wanted to have but have historically had to find shortcuts around because they can be a bit intensive to accurately simulate. |
| 17:18 |
erlehmann |
that made me smile hehe |
| 17:18 |
erlehmann |
i remember playing poke646, which used the half life 1 engine |
| 17:18 |
Gustavo6046 |
shouldn't the media for the last joined server still be in memory, or recent media in some sort of in-memory LRU cache? |
| 17:18 |
sfan5 |
media is cached on disk |
| 17:19 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046, minetest leaks memory, but if it leaks media, no idea. |
| 17:19 |
sfan5 |
erlehmann: I don't know, does just removing a feature in active use sound like a problem to you? |
| 17:19 |
sfan5 |
who was the person complaining about "rugpulls" again? |
| 17:19 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 cut the sarcasm, salvaging would obv entail fixing that |
| 17:20 |
erlehmann |
i just want to know if that's even an option |
| 17:20 |
erlehmann |
and yes, i am against rug pulling |
| 17:20 |
erlehmann |
always will be |
| 17:20 |
erlehmann |
a client side rendering speedup PR has no business even touching network code imo |
| 17:20 |
erlehmann |
or change the API |
| 17:21 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, mm? |
| 17:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Can't say I'm a fan of rug pulling in general, but it really depends on the condition of the rug itself, and what is under it and/or is going to replace it. |
| 17:21 |
Gustavo6046 |
sfan5, yes, but that still takes a while to load if you join a server |
| 17:21 |
sfan5 |
well PRs that improve rendering without an observable difference in API or result are obviously okay |
| 17:21 |
sfan5 |
and I can't comment on the code itself |
| 17:22 |
erlehmann |
ok |
| 17:22 |
erlehmann |
thx |
| 17:22 |
sfan5 |
so still not sure what you're asking |
| 17:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> gustavo: media caching to disk means you don't have to wait for that media to download from the network again, but you may still need to wait for it to be loaded from disk and unpacked into memory, which may depend a lot on your device. |
| 17:22 |
erlehmann |
i was asking you if you had an opinion on the code itself |
| 17:22 |
erlehmann |
which you don't, if i understand it |
| 17:22 |
erlehmann |
but thanks for referencing it |
| 17:23 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 there are some simple things you can do to speed up media loading in general, but few of those are desirable. |
| 17:23 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 one thing you can do is use uncompressed formats. i have benchmarked that recently though and it seems there is no real gain at the texture size and number we have. |
| 17:25 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 another thing could be to do less reading of very many small files. that really depends on your filesystem and storage though, if *that* makes it slow. |
| 17:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Uncompressed formats for writing to a disk cache may or may not make sense depending on the relative CPU/IO balance of the system; sometimes compression can save time, sometimes it costs. It's generally not great for the network side of things though, and IIRC MT doesn't re-encode the disk cache so you'd have to eat the network costs. |
| 17:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "at the texture size and number we have" is not a thing, it's many things, and the servers where cache load times are a problem are also likely to be the ones where uncompressed formats would be too. |
| 17:26 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 i tested it in particular because at the typical sizes we are talking (textures that are 100 to 300 bytes) the compression gains you very little. but also at that size the undeniable overhead seems to not affect loading enough to justify it. |
| 17:27 |
erlehmann |
justify changing it i mean |
| 17:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> People talk about servers with multiple GB of media, and I usually only play on servers that just barely have multiple MB of media, so there's a pretty stark difference there. With only 2MB of media, it more or less just doesn't matter what you do anyway, so compress away if you're into that kind of thing :-) |
| 17:27 |
erlehmann |
believe me, if i had found something, i'd already made a PR |
| 17:28 |
erlehmann |
right now compression mainly matters if you are writing a thing a lot and reading it a lot |
| 17:28 |
erlehmann |
think mcl_maps, you *really* don't want to add a deflate every time you edit the texture |
| 17:28 |
erlehmann |
i mean an additional one |
| 17:30 |
erlehmann |
AFAIK one thing that games use to speed up access to many small files is archives. irrlicht has support for that. irrlichtmt does not … AND it does not help with caching, unless you repack the stuff somewhere else. |
| 17:32 |
erlehmann |
i concede that very broadly the direction of the “save all textures in sqlite” may not be as misguided as i have claimed. the implementation was stlil extremely cursed don't open. |
| 17:32 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 have you profiled the loading, in what is taking most time? |
| 17:33 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 you can use strace and ltrace for that on linux. also your binary will be slowed down to a crawl. |
| 17:34 |
sfan5 |
strace/ltrace are not profiling tools |
| 17:35 |
sfan5 |
they can tell if tell you whether reading from disk is slow though |
| 17:35 |
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| 17:35 |
erlehmann |
well, they can tell you if you are doing a lot of unnecessary stuff |
| 17:36 |
erlehmann |
or, if you know you are doing that, they can help you pinpoint what it is |
| 17:36 |
erlehmann |
(a real profiler obviously does not make everything take ages) |
| 17:37 |
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| 17:38 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 this is funny https://nitter.snopyta.org/Foone/status/1372768129395224578 |
| 17:38 |
erlehmann |
mirrors in duke nukem |
| 17:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> What's funny is how those worked. They basically duplicated the level geometry and objects inside that space to fake it. That also meant that when designing a level that had a mirror, you needed to put a giant sector behind it covering the space that the mirror could "see" to "reserve" that space for the mirror's internals. |
| 17:43 |
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| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Er, actually, no wait, they needed that sector because they positioned the camera inside that space and rendered the scene facing out. It's been a few decades so I remember it fuzzy :-) |
| 17:44 |
erlehmann |
duke nukem 3d was a huge flex on all accounts |
| 17:44 |
erlehmann |
shrink ray! |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The build engine was one of my favorites for map editing. The BSP maps used in Quake, and event the 3D portal renderer used by Unreal, were too much of a PITA. I was really fine with maps that were conceptually 2D and just had some 3D extrusions. Most of day to day human existence really happens on planes with limited extrusion due to the influence of gravity. |
| 17:46 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, I see |
| 17:46 |
erlehmann |
come with me to the nether roof |
| 17:46 |
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| 17:46 |
Gustavo6046 |
my btrfs uses zstd compression if that is related |
| 17:47 |
Gustavo6046 |
zstd is pretty fast compared to other methods, I think the point of it is that you can lower its compression level to get faster compression than standard methods without losing too much on compression ratio? |
| 17:47 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 well … try running minetest from a tmpfs and see how fast it is? |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Compression at the fs layer is likely not going to be helpful to MT's media cache, though whether or not it actually hurts probably depends a lot on how much machine you've got available to handle it. |
| 17:48 |
Gustavo6046 |
Warr1024: I really liked map editing for Unreal, as well as for Doom. FYI Duke Nukem 3D does not use a BSP tree like Doom and Quake do (even though it uses sectors like Doom does). It uses portals. |
| 17:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I actually use a tmpfs for my media cache and never have issues ... but again, I normally play games with ~2MB media :-) |
| 17:48 |
erlehmann |
i really like the map editing for minetest, because it is IN THE GAME hahaha |
| 17:48 |
Gustavo6046 |
Quake and Q3 also has "vis" portals that help with rendering performance. |
| 17:48 |
erlehmann |
doom 2 has really funny mods |
| 17:48 |
Gustavo6046 |
Simple rendering methods tend to faulter to the fact that rendering is, by nature, an expensive amount of computations, and is usually best done smartly, that is, with complex algorithms that reducex the amount of brute force work done. |
| 17:48 |
erlehmann |
i mean if you use modern freedoom |
| 17:48 |
erlehmann |
haha, use brutal doom |
| 17:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> One of the Build Engine's strengths as a portal engine was that there was no map compilation necessary, and limited ways of making maps that aren't valid, instead of having the "leaking" issue that Quake ran into. |
| 17:49 |
erlehmann |
it is doom meets minecraft |
| 17:49 |
erlehmann |
wdym leaking |
| 17:49 |
Gustavo6046 |
GPUs allow the already complicated rendering pipelines of today to reach a decent performance without too much fussing about data structures and ever-so-ginormous hacks and cleverness to reach the same performance with software rendering. |
| 17:49 |
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| 17:50 |
Gustavo6046 |
It's hard enough to reach a good performance on software rendering with something like Quake 3, look at how complicated its rendering code is! :P |
| 17:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Quake levels were composed of an empty negative space that you added positive geometry to (as compared to Doom or Duke3D that had a positive solid space you carved negative spaces into). When you compiled a quake level, it had to bake in lighting, and it could only do this if the space that the player starts in is "sealed" such that there's no way to get to infinity from the player's starting point. |
| 17:50 |
Gustavo6046 |
Suffice to say, I don't value a renderer by its simplicity, but also not by its complexity. I value it by its cleverness, whether it runs on the CPU or GPU or whatever. I'm ambivalent about Unreal's renderer, since it's messy, but I like the map editing that it provides through, say, UnrealEd 2. It's intuitive and nice, I like the brushes way of mapping. |
| 17:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I never understood why they designed it this way; seemed dumb to me. |
| 17:50 |
Gustavo6046 |
I'm also repelled by Quake's CSG. |
| 17:51 |
Gustavo6046 |
It's disgusting. You're meant to fill in hulls. |
| 17:51 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 computers are fast. but programmers can do dumb stuff faster than computers get faster. |
| 17:51 |
Gustavo6046 |
Any hole into the void is an error. |
| 17:51 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 so does the tmpfs thing do anything? |
| 17:51 |
Gustavo6046 |
Unreal doesn't have that. |
| 17:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> One thing about the old legacy games was that they were designed for CPU software rendering, and had to optimize pretty intensely; games like MT get away with a lot because we assume the GPU can handle quite a bit. |
| 17:51 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, oh I'm yet to do that. I think I'll do that, yes. |
| 17:52 |
Gustavo6046 |
Although I was thinking about having that LRU to the disk; the way tmpfs works it'll prohbably LRU to swap instead, which currently is a zstd zram volume. |
| 17:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Unreal has positive and negative CSG, so yeah, it avoids leaks to infinity. I think it was Quake II specifically I ran into the most trouble with. |
| 17:52 |
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| 17:52 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 you are really going all in on zstd LOL |
| 17:52 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 you must have lots of CPU and lack hard disk and RAM i guess |
| 17:52 |
Gustavo6046 |
Warr1024, yeah, they were. Even with the GPU though I think you can get a lot of mileage from meticulous consideration with optimization. |
| 17:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't think MT uses an on-disk LRU; I think it just caches media forever until you manually clear them... |
| 17:53 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, I lack all of those, it just turns out I lack RAM more :D |
| 17:53 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 how little RAM do you have? minetest runs fine with 2GB, so … |
| 17:53 |
erlehmann |
(my main machine is a thinkpad T60) |
| 17:53 |
Gustavo6046 |
Warr1024 what I mean is to LRU on memory, then once that reaches the high watermark you start swapping older media to disk, until it reaches the low watermark. |
| 17:53 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, 4 GB! |
| 17:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> With the GPU you need to consider the trade-offs more. It's a lot easier to shoot yourself in the foot trying to be too clever, i.e. trying to make careful decisions instead of using brute force, when you pretty much universally actually have more brute force available than the compute resources needed to make clever decisions. |
| 17:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The only LRU that I know of that MT's caching does, on disk OR in RAM, is the swapping/paging system provided by your OS. |
| 17:54 |
Gustavo6046 |
lscpu https://termbin.com/xxic , lspci -k https://termbin.com/rx8r , glxinfo -B https://termbin.com/s9h9 , free --mega https://termbin.com/oflm2 |
| 17:54 |
definitelya_ |
Happy extruded cat day! :3 |
| 17:54 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 well, i have played mineclone2, the medal winner in resource wasting mods in minetest, and i have only ever managed to fill my RAM through memory leaks with minetest |
| 17:54 |
Gustavo6046 |
I like the SI units :) |
| 17:54 |
definitelya_ |
lol |
| 17:54 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, I'm playing MineClone 5 |
| 17:54 |
Gustavo6046 |
which is much better in terms of not wasting resources, I suppose |
| 17:55 |
Gustavo6046 |
in fact right now I'm on Kay's test server |
| 17:55 |
erlehmann |
uhhh |
| 17:55 |
erlehmann |
i can say things about kay27 and accidental recursion but let's say i don't wanna speak ill of someone who is ultimately doing a good job |
| 17:55 |
erlehmann |
but if mineclone5 fills your RAM, you should investigate |
| 17:56 |
erlehmann |
i would expect with all his “minetest is racy and i build by own mapgen in lua” experiments, bugs are bound to crop up |
| 17:57 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 how much RAM does minetest use with mineclone2 on your machine? |
| 17:57 |
erlehmann |
or mineclone5 sorry |
| 17:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "I don't want to speak ill of X" always implies "but I de facto just did." Everyone has their focus, and correspondingly, weaknesses elsewhere... |
| 17:58 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024, for me “i wouldn't it put past him to not pay attention to runaway processes” is not speaking ill, ranting half a screen page is. |
| 17:58 |
erlehmann |
i disagree with him about quality control, but i disagree with a lot of people about it. |
| 17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Quality control is about maintaining a specific level of quality, and part of that is avoiding too much quality. |
| 17:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I actually run into the too much quality problem with NodeCore about as often as I do too little, i.e. I find myself polishing some system or fixing some obscure bugs when I really should be working on something larger and riskier. |
| 18:00 |
erlehmann |
look, i can spell it out: kay27 is very capable fixing problems. but you will have to find them, bc he is much lier to code |
| 18:00 |
erlehmann |
much more likely to code |
| 18:00 |
erlehmann |
a new feature instead of reviewing an older one |
| 18:01 |
erlehmann |
so one you have found a memory leak or whatever he will fix |
| 18:03 |
erlehmann |
if something does not crash in luajit but does crash with builtin lua, he will not notice, bc he uses luajit. |
| 18:03 |
erlehmann |
this is the same way i did not notice that in mcl_maps the flags need to be “wb” to work on windows for file writing |
| 18:03 |
erlehmann |
it's always easier to have someone else point it out |
| 18:06 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 please tell me the result of your experiment, i am curious |
| 18:09 |
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| 18:09 |
erlehmann |
https://www.brendangregg.com/blog/2014-05-11/strace-wow-much-syscall.html |
| 18:09 |
erlehmann |
> The first strace is on display at the Computer History Museum in San Jose. It was made in 1961 using wire wrapped circuitry and core memory, and could trace up to 12 system calls per second. Within its sheet metal enclosure are four seats: for the surgeon, co-pilot, and their two secretaries. It could stay submerged at syscall depth for up to 9 hours. |
| 18:09 |
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| 18:10 |
erlehmann |
> On the bottom of San Francisco bay are several thousand unused straces, which were intended for Y2K issues that never arose, and so were scuttled. |
| 18:11 |
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| 18:28 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, which? |
| 18:28 |
Gustavo6046 |
I didn't try mcl2 yet |
| 18:28 |
Gustavo6046 |
I'm on mcl |
| 18:28 |
Gustavo6046 |
mcl5 |
| 18:29 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 yeah so did it do anything |
| 18:29 |
erlehmann |
the mcl5 + tmpfs |
| 18:38 |
Gustavo6046 |
ohh |
| 18:38 |
Gustavo6046 |
tmpfs |
| 18:38 |
Gustavo6046 |
you mean joining the server wit that |
| 18:38 |
Gustavo6046 |
I didn't quite try yet |
| 18:38 |
Gustavo6046 |
I should |
| 18:38 |
Gustavo6046 |
one moment |
| 18:46 |
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| 19:23 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, there is one detail though |
| 19:23 |
erlehmann |
tell |
| 19:23 |
Gustavo6046 |
tmpfs is volatile storage, I would like the media to be persistent, saved on disk |
| 19:23 |
Gustavo6046 |
but I will give ita try |
| 19:23 |
erlehmann |
look i only want to know if your setup makes it slow |
| 19:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> tmpfs is sort of a proof of concept more than a permanent solution |
| 19:23 |
Gustavo6046 |
if it does give a significant improvement in loading time (and I have a feeling it does) I will consider finding a way to do that |
| 19:24 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, you mean with btrfs and compression? |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> in my case I use it because I specifically don't want it written to disk, I actually don't need a disk cache |
| 19:24 |
erlehmann |
be sure to join a remote server, if you start a local server, mod initialization will dwarf most other stuff anyway |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> but if it improves loading time you COULD also setup a background sync to/from disk. |
| 19:24 |
erlehmann |
yeah |
| 19:24 |
Gustavo6046 |
yes |
| 19:24 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 i am generally not a fan of filesystems that fill your disk with garbage once you stat a file lol |
| 19:24 |
Gustavo6046 |
do they? |
| 19:25 |
Gustavo6046 |
I think btrfs is clever, maybe a bit too clever but still pretty good |
| 19:25 |
erlehmann |
the delicious butter filesystem had this failure mode last i looked |
| 19:25 |
Gustavo6046 |
failure mode? |
| 19:25 |
Gustavo6046 |
well, it works just fine for me, if maybe a bit slow to resize partitions and move them around, and I'm happy with it :P |
| 19:25 |
erlehmann |
ok so a question |
| 19:26 |
erlehmann |
give me a few minutes to figure out how it was triggered |
| 19:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
okay, I've finished copying stuff |
| 19:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
oh... |
| 19:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
I am planning on doing some more pull requests to MineClone 5 in a moment |
| 19:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
some fixes and some details |
| 19:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
I'll do that after I finish this test though |
| 19:26 |
erlehmann |
are you the person with the items? |
| 19:27 |
Gustavo6046 |
items? |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> oh thank got I'm not the only one who sees that as "butter filesystem" |
| 19:27 |
Gustavo6046 |
I implemented the current item-water interaction physics in MineClone 5 |
| 19:27 |
Gustavo6046 |
does that sound familiar to you? |
| 19:27 |
Gustavo6046 |
probably not... |
| 19:27 |
Gustavo6046 |
...but if it does then it's because it turns out I also did with TenPlus1's builtin_item :D |
| 19:28 |
Gustavo6046 |
mm, Crocus does seem to make the game a bit slower |
| 19:28 |
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| 19:28 |
Gustavo6046 |
also |
| 19:28 |
Gustavo6046 |
it still spends some time loading media |
| 19:29 |
Gustavo6046 |
df gives size=1,9G used=164M available=1,8G use%=9% at path /home/gustavo6046/.cache/minetest |
| 19:30 |
erlehmann |
it does sound familiar to me |
| 19:30 |
Gustavo6046 |
so it's not that much of an improvement, I'd sa |
| 19:36 |
Gustavo6046 |
huh, there are some strange Moiré-esque artifacts when I walk toward or away from far away blocks, with mipmapping. |
| 19:37 |
Gustavo6046 |
I forgot if it happens without it too |
| 19:37 |
Gustavo6046 |
I'll try with anisotropic filtering too |
| 19:38 |
Gustavo6046 |
nop, still there |
| 19:38 |
Gustavo6046 |
I'll try disabling smooth lighting |
| 19:38 |
erlehmann |
moire effects yay |
| 19:40 |
erlehmann |
not sure if cursed, but a very lazy investigation using strace seems to suggest that minetest is definitely not holding back on unnecessary filesystem access |
| 19:40 |
Gustavo6046 |
yeah the effects won't go away |
| 19:40 |
erlehmann |
this is hilarious |
| 19:41 |
erlehmann |
so by default i get stat calls for BMP files that are *definitely* not there. a lot of them. |
| 19:41 |
erlehmann |
the bmp reader needs to die |
| 19:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> oh, wait, it just looks for files by hash and cycles through every possible extension or something...? |
| 19:44 |
erlehmann |
nah, for texture packs it needs to do that |
| 19:44 |
Gustavo6046 |
o.o |
| 19:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I feel like I've gotten away with writing stuff like that a lot though, as most fs's can be relied on to cache some stuff smartly, and reading the entire dir in and hashing it myself can often be worse... |
| 19:44 |
erlehmann |
i have written a build system. the thing is, syscalls are fast. but do it at *scale* … |
| 19:44 |
Gustavo6046 |
maybe just prioritize png over bmp? |
| 19:44 |
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| 19:44 |
erlehmann |
look, bmp is the worst format ever |
| 19:45 |
erlehmann |
it even has a 32 bit mode that gives you 24 bit for RGB color and 8 wasted bytes! |
| 19:45 |
Gustavo6046 |
or convert every file to <name>.png in the filesystem (or maybe even an in-memory store) and then use that to reference textures? |
| 19:45 |
Gustavo6046 |
so everything will be named predictable |
| 19:45 |
Gustavo6046 |
y |
| 19:45 |
erlehmann |
oh my, jpeg and tga exist |
| 19:45 |
erlehmann |
the code needs to be smarter |
| 19:45 |
erlehmann |
that's all |
| 19:46 |
Gustavo6046 |
stat the entire folder and convert it, letting the conversion library figure the input type, rather than cycling through extensions and prodding the fs |
| 19:46 |
erlehmann |
try it |
| 19:46 |
Gustavo6046 |
while you're at it might as well convert it to a compressed format that is compatible with OpenGL and/or D3D |
| 19:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> BMP is IIRC optimized to be loaded quickly directly into video memory, i.e. the bytes are arranged on disk the same way they are in memory of video systems of the time. |
| 19:46 |
Gustavo6046 |
what was it called now, dx12? |
| 19:46 |
erlehmann |
LANG=C strace -e file ./bin/minetest |
| 19:46 |
Gustavo6046 |
er no |
| 19:46 |
Gustavo6046 |
that's not a format |
| 19:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Whenever you have to say "of the time" for design of something, it's a good indication that yeah, maybe it's a bit dated... |
| 19:46 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 same as every other microsoft format lol |
| 19:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't think I ever understood the reverse scanline thing from BMP though. |
| 19:47 |
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| 19:48 |
erlehmann |
nowadays you can get every benefit you *might* have gotten from bmp from TGA. 18 byte header and whatever comes after it is a) always streamable b) interpretable with a minimum amount of code. |
| 19:48 |
erlehmann |
which is why you see games still using TGA, but rarely using BMP |
| 19:48 |
rubenwardy |
Gustavo6046: we only support OpenGL bt |
| 19:48 |
rubenwardy |
*btw |
| 19:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> IIRC isn't BMP support only in there because it would have been too much of a bother to remove it, and it probably just felt wrong to leave it in as dead code and not expose support? |
| 19:49 |
rubenwardy |
the best format to use on disk doesn't necessarily need to be the best format to use at runtime |
| 19:49 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 it should not be hard to axe it. |
| 19:49 |
erlehmann |
give me a few minutes |
| 19:49 |
rubenwardy |
Warr1024: that doesn't sound right |
| 19:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Maybe it was an Irrlicht-pre-MT thing |
| 19:51 |
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| 19:51 |
rubenwardy |
quick grep of ContentDB uploads show that .bmp is being used |
| 19:51 |
erlehmann |
oh lol ok |
| 19:51 |
erlehmann |
it has to stay then i guess |
| 19:51 |
erlehmann |
for what though? |
| 19:51 |
rubenwardy |
mostly by menu/icon.bpn |
| 19:51 |
rubenwardy |
*bmp |
| 19:52 |
erlehmann |
i see. i guess windows strikes again. |
| 19:52 |
rubenwardy |
there's also one random textures/ image that looks wrong |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> wh- |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> menu icons are able to be in .png right |
| 19:52 |
erlehmann |
i retract my assertions and substitute “no rug pulls” |
| 19:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> *are only able to |
| 19:55 |
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| 19:59 |
erlehmann |
lol, constantly asking for /etc/localtime |
| 20:00 |
erlehmann |
https://blog.packagecloud.io/set-environment-variable-save-thousands-of-system-calls/ |
| 20:01 |
erlehmann |
> It turns out that the localtime function in glibc will check if the TZ environment variable is set. If it is not set (the two Ubuntus I’ve tested do not set it), then glibc will use the stat system call every time localtime is called. |
| 20:01 |
erlehmann |
computers were a mistake |
| 20:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> computers were invented by humans, so technically they're a 2nd generation mistake |
| 20:02 |
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| 20:12 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, I don't think they were |
| 20:12 |
Gustavo6046 |
they have been profoundly leveraged by society and I think that's a good thing |
| 20:12 |
Gustavo6046 |
in spite of it bringing all the downsides of computation over to the real world |
| 20:18 |
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| 20:19 |
RhineDevil |
Gustavo6046: u here too |
| 20:19 |
Gustavo6046 |
yeah |
| 20:19 |
Gustavo6046 |
I am |
| 20:19 |
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| 20:20 |
RhineDevil |
why does erlehmann think computers were a mistake |
| 20:21 |
RhineDevil |
in my opinion the problem is not in computers but in humans being egocentric narcissists |
| 20:23 |
definitelya_ |
RhineDevil: huh? |
| 20:24 |
Gustavo6046 |
RhineDevil, that too |
| 20:24 |
RhineDevil |
definitelya_: I think humanity is flawed by default |
| 20:24 |
Gustavo6046 |
and also humans not really understanding computers |
| 20:24 |
RhineDevil |
that too |
| 20:24 |
Gustavo6046 |
or making needlessly convoluted stuff that only exacerbates the previous issu |
| 20:25 |
Gustavo6046 |
a running joke among programmers is that a lot of code is meant to be write-only. |
| 20:25 |
RhineDevil |
perl docet |
| 20:25 |
Gustavo6046 |
we shouldn't be laughing at that. we should be crying. we should be anguished and revolted against those before us who thought that was afine. |
| 20:25 |
Gustavo6046 |
well, you don't have to write Perl in order to write write-only code :P |
| 20:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
although yes, if you bash your head on the keyboard, the output has a surprisingly high chance of being valid Perl |
| 20:26 |
RhineDevil |
if only I had a penny for every badly written perl program I've seen |
| 20:26 |
RhineDevil |
Gustavo6046: I know |
| 20:26 |
RhineDevil |
I programmed in perl myself |
| 20:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
:P |
| 20:26 |
RhineDevil |
but perl is quite lax in allowing bad syntax |
| 20:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
yeah |
| 20:26 |
RhineDevil |
and some people don't even bother in having at least coherent syntax |
| 20:27 |
definitelya_ |
RhineDevil: That's a bit depressing, with not much to gain from it, seeing as there are as many different facets of being as there are people. |
| 20:27 |
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| 20:27 |
Megaf |
test |
| 20:27 |
RhineDevil |
definitelya_: reality is depressing |
| 20:27 |
definitelya_ |
Only if u let it. ;) |
| 20:28 |
RhineDevil |
definitelya_: the positive bias is talking through you |
| 20:28 |
Megaf |
!up minetest.megaf.info 30003 |
| 20:28 |
MinetestBot |
minetest.megaf.info:30003 is up (9ms) (IPv4) |
| 20:28 |
Megaf |
Anyone in the mood of joining a new server and starting all over again? |
| 20:29 |
RhineDevil |
Megaf: nah I'm in the mood for burning software and writing it a new |
| 20:29 |
RhineDevil |
*anew |
| 20:29 |
definitelya_ |
RhineDevil: IMO, reality is irrational anyway, so there's no reason for it to depress me I guess. |
| 20:29 |
dzho |
Megaf: should I drop in then? |
| 20:30 |
RhineDevil |
definitelya_: for someone to not see reality as depressing, he must either be positivist/panglossian or devoid of emotions |
| 20:31 |
Megaf |
My new server, Megaf Server v6, it's the sixth itineration of Megaf Server, as its predecessors, it's focused around mesecons and pipeworks, with homedecor for decoration. It's a survival server for creative people. |
| 20:31 |
RhineDevil |
and I'm not |
| 20:31 |
RhineDevil |
I only know I have to fight to at least make reality a bit less unconfortable |
| 20:31 |
definitelya_ |
hm, I guess I'm just malfunctioning, as usual. |
| 20:31 |
definitelya_ |
xD |
| 20:32 |
RhineDevil |
definitelya_: truth is everyone is malfunctioning |
| 20:32 |
definitelya_ |
deep |
| 20:32 |
RhineDevil |
when we evolved and started to question ourselves, we realized we're going to die |
| 20:32 |
RhineDevil |
for rejecting this truth, our brain evolved the positive bias |
| 20:33 |
RhineDevil |
we never think about how close the death is, otherwise we'd be vegetals in a constant state of depression |
| 20:34 |
RhineDevil |
so, we always think someday, in some way, things we'll be better |
| 20:34 |
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| 20:34 |
definitelya_ |
LALALA! Can't hear you over this cool positive bias. B) |
| 20:34 |
RhineDevil |
tl;dr this malfunction is in order to keep us functioning |
| 20:34 |
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| 20:35 |
definitelya_ |
RhineDevil: Exactly |
| 20:37 |
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| 20:38 |
RhineDevil |
btw about what I said earlier, Gustavo6046 if only you knew how much bad stuff is in "reputable" code managing debian repos |
| 20:38 |
RhineDevil |
I've seen horrors in bash and perl you humans can't even imagine |
| 20:38 |
Gustavo6046 |
yeah |
| 20:40 |
RhineDevil |
I stared too deeply in the abyss and the abyss said "#!/bin/sh perl -c 'code'" |
| 20:40 |
erlehmann |
https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/accidentally-nonblocking |
| 20:40 |
Gustavo6046 |
ouch |
| 20:40 |
Gustavo6046 |
mean abyss |
| 20:40 |
erlehmann |
> Mistakes are made, and recv is called on a blocking socket. The program stalls and users complain. However, instead of a proper fix, the developer changes the socket to nonblocking. Now recv will return a nice error code which we can ignore. But this does not fix the underlying cause, that the program’s internal state machine has become unsynced with reality. |
| 20:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Rhine, I can't get past the nagging thought: "shouldn't that be -e?" |
| 20:41 |
RhineDevil |
MTDiscord: yeah sorry it was a year ago or something, pardon me |
| 20:42 |
Fulgen |
erlehmann: I guess the developer left the proper fix to the next person that would touch the code |
| 20:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I guess maybe I do more abyss-staring than I think :-) |
| 20:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> er, I guess it's #!/bin/sh -c "perl -e 'code'" |
| 20:43 |
RhineDevil |
'#!/bin/sh -c "perl -e 'code'"? you sure? |
| 20:43 |
RhineDevil |
the hashbang means it's a script |
| 20:44 |
RhineDevil |
Btw I'm not really fond of the idea of linking IRC and discord. Discord is spyware |
| 20:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> ...says the person on the platform that actually has public logs ? |
| 20:47 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-oh-no-anyway-gif-18887547 |
| 20:48 |
definitelya_ |
Discord exists. |
| 20:49 |
definitelya_ |
You can't argue with me there. |
| 20:49 |
Megaf |
By the way, I'm giving 10 blocks of diamond for the first 5 people who join my server in the first 24 hours since it became public. 3 people already got their prize, two more to go. |
| 20:49 |
RhineDevil |
MTDiscord: that's the difference, IRC is open by design, Discord datamines on your back |
| 20:49 |
RhineDevil |
*Warr1024 |
| 20:49 |
wsor |
RhineDevil https://tenor.com/view/yes-very-sad-anyway-loki-sad-loki-gif-22079369 |
| 20:50 |
RhineDevil |
no sorry I dont watch cinecomics |
| 20:53 |
ROllerozxa |
IRC be kinda cozy tho... -w- |
| 20:54 |
RhineDevil |
cat -W- |
| 20:54 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, wait, but then what is the proper fix, hmm? |
| 20:54 |
Gustavo6046 |
A socket will stall the thread it's executing on if it's blocking. |
| 20:54 |
Gustavo6046 |
Setting it to nonblocking and checking its return code every so often is important. |
| 20:54 |
Gustavo6046 |
Unless you use some sort of event loop. |
| 20:56 |
Gustavo6046 |
RhineDevil, I'm not really a big fan of Discord either, but I'm also not too bothered to tell companies to stop profiting off of my data without splitting the profits with me, sooo *shrug* |
| 20:57 |
Gustavo6046 |
I reckon this also happens to be the mentality of the majority; people want to use things for free, and are willing to pay for it with their own data. |
| 20:57 |
Gustavo6046 |
I know it sets a worrying precedent, but I honestly, seriously, non-sarcastically don't know what kind of dystopian future would come from this. |
| 20:57 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 read the article |
| 20:57 |
Gustavo6046 |
If there is a dystopia, we're already heading for it because of capitalism. |
| 20:58 |
erlehmann |
> IRC is open by design, Discord datamines on your back |
| 20:58 |
Gustavo6046 |
And we should work to get rid of that. Trust me, without capitalism as we know it, so many things will be better, as the entire structure of incentives will change. People will be less selfish, companies will be nicer. |
| 20:58 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, I know, I know! |
| 20:58 |
erlehmann |
and discord lags my computer to death without doing anything |
| 20:58 |
Gustavo6046 |
Yeah Discord has a memory leak here |
| 20:59 |
erlehmann |
matrix is similarly worse. chat clients! using more RAM than minetest! |
| 20:59 |
erlehmann |
chat program that wants more RAM than minetest should be fined. with the fines increasing until performance improves! |
| 21:00 |
definitelya_ |
Discord & others aren't the problem anyway. It's the Far West state the internet put us in that is surreal and damaging for all. |
| 21:00 |
definitelya_ |
Especially for making them respect the law. |
| 21:01 |
erlehmann |
THE LAW has entered the game |
| 21:01 |
erlehmann |
[[VGHS intensifies]] |
| 21:02 |
definitelya_ |
videogame highschool? |
| 21:03 |
definitelya_ |
Sorry that's the first thing that popped up oof |
| 21:12 |
Megaf |
dzho, Thanks for joining. And monsters is now active :) |
| 21:18 |
erlehmann |
definitelya_ yes, a character there is called the law |
| 21:18 |
erlehmann |
lawrence something |
| 21:18 |
erlehmann |
he is played very well |
| 21:20 |
definitelya_ |
oh |
| 21:21 |
erlehmann |
ha, i found something funny. i wonder if my change will increase performance. |
| 21:21 |
erlehmann |
i mean it will. but i wonder if it is noticeable. |
| 21:21 |
erlehmann |
(compiling) |
| 21:25 |
Gustavo6046 |
definitelya_, the Internet has upsides and downsides, most of them come from how humans interact with it though. |
| 21:25 |
Gustavo6046 |
I'd say, it is actually pretty great for a lot of things, and with its free exchange of information, may as well catalyse a very necessary revolution in global society. |
| 21:26 |
definitelya_ |
Of course it's great; it's just a very powerful tool. |
| 21:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
It's not just a tool. It's a massive social and informational phenomenon. |
| 21:26 |
Gustavo6046 |
People will organize and revolute. With revolution will come the refreshing of every corner of legislation, as well as the already cliché'd substitution of the foundations of the socioeconomical system and the underlying structures of incentive. |
| 21:27 |
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| 21:28 |
Gustavo6046 |
With a flatter social pyramid, and more businesses drawing closer to the worker's cooperative model, as well as a general diffusion of Marx-esque critical ideas, there will be no point in infringing people's privacy in the first place. Regulation online will be revamped, but in a way that respects both the individual and the collective, and it won't be centralized by governments or companies alike. |
| 21:28 |
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| 21:31 |
erlehmann |
right, i learned in school how the workers united after the russian revolution and then started respecting everyone's privacy! |
| 21:32 |
erlehmann |
so by 1924, online advertising was practically nonexistent |
| 21:33 |
definitelya_ |
Gustavo6046: > a flatter social pyramid |
| 21:33 |
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| 21:33 |
Gustavo6046 |
erlehmann, definitelya_, in what school did you learn about the Soviet Union, and which period of it? |
| 21:33 |
definitelya_ |
Yes! The Galactic Emperor and then its subjects. >:) |
| 21:33 |
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| 21:34 |
Gustavo6046 |
There definitely was a grace time once the turbulence of the revolution finished, and before it started puckering up again. |
| 21:34 |
Gustavo6046 |
and getting shitty again |
| 21:34 |
Gustavo6046 |
but at least this time it was way more industrialized and modernized than in the era of the Tsars |
| 21:34 |
definitelya_ |
s/its/their |
| 21:34 |
Gustavo6046 |
definitelya_, well, that's not really a pyramid now is it, that's a needle stuck into a wide, wide floor! |
| 21:35 |
Gustavo6046 |
yup I just called ya a needle head |
| 21:35 |
definitelya_ |
Gustavo6046: bee you |
| 21:35 |
erlehmann |
Gustavo6046 i learned all the history of the soviet union from this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWTFG3J1CP8 |
| 21:35 |
definitelya_ |
HAH |
| 21:35 |
Gustavo6046 |
me? a bee? pff |
| 21:38 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> The topic move requests in https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=407075 need to be handled. Appoint additional helpers if need be. It seems that's what was done with Mooncarguy, who after a short period of activity became inactive. |
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| 22:21 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Clean up ClientReady packet handling c31b301 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/c31b3017222edd6e93bdeb02f05a3df7b6b23a1a (2022-02-17T22:20:33Z) |
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| 23:31 |
erlehmann |
sfan5, why does this change u16 formspec_version = 0; ? |
| 23:33 |
erlehmann |
is it just a control flow issue? |
| 23:33 |
erlehmann |
(i see that it is set to 1 at another point) |
