Time Nick Message 00:33 MTDiscord erlehmann: as I explained elsewhere, LuaJIT allows [[ [[ ]] while PUC Lua does not. 00:33 MTDiscord different parsers 00:34 MTDiscord the code was just outcommented in a dirty way, the equivalent to /* /* */, which would give you a syntax error in Java 00:52 erlehmann luatic well that probably sucks for the ratings for that game 03:30 Guest79 hello 17:55 MTDiscord erlehmann, have you been having fun trying to find a bug in the networking of minetest? 17:55 MTDiscord I have a potential bug idea that himbeer said could potentially work 17:55 MTDiscord But i dont want to say it here ofc 17:56 MTDiscord I bet that there are tons of bugs 17:56 MTDiscord I don't want to say anything else about it 18:04 MTDiscord Himbeer already found a bug similar to mine just over a year ago 18:04 MTDiscord I just checked in our DMs 18:06 MTDiscord "I have a potential bug idea" sounds to me like "hey I thought of this really cool idea for a bug that I think you should consider adding." 18:06 MTDiscord An idea as in it hasnt been tested yet 18:07 MTDiscord Just himbeer says it would work from a networking standpoint 18:07 MTDiscord I'd say, I'd consider it, but mostly we remove bugs so it'd have to be a really cool one to get added. :-) 18:07 MTDiscord Lol 18:09 MTDiscord I mean ot isnt exactly difficult to find bugs in minetest 18:09 MTDiscord *it 18:26 MTDiscord I mean s/minetest/software/ but yeah. 19:31 Sokomine besides: merry christmas to you all :-) 19:33 Krock how can the screwdriver be so unintuitive? I don't get it how to use that thing 19:33 Krock apparently 8 years into Minetest are not enough to grasp this 19:34 Krock punch: rotate face. does not rotate the *pointed* face 19:34 Krock place: no idea man it's random 19:35 MTDiscord I just always hit it as random until it faced the right way 19:35 MTDiscord A few hits in you can usually get a feel for which axis its rotating around, but no its not intuitive 19:36 Krock except when you do something wrong and end up clicking 20 times 19:47 MTDiscord This is why rhotator exists 19:47 MTDiscord Or however its spelled 19:47 MTDiscord The screwdriver was designed to organize the 24 different rotations into 6 sets of 4 (or was that 4 sets of 6) so that in theory you could use fewer clicks to get to the desired state ... but the state transition graph for it is too complex to intuit so it just ends up being memorizing a pattern of 4 of this click then one of that, 4 of this one of that, etc. until you find your desired state sequentially. 19:48 MTDiscord I struggled a bit with rotations in nodecore but ended up just (1) removing redundant rotations, and then (2) cycling through all of them on right-click, and users have generally reported that it's nicer than the screwdriver at least. 19:49 Krock worst case is a 180° rotated face into the opposite direction. that's four clicks if done right 19:50 Krock actually 6 clicks, if backwards operations are not possible 19:50 Krock also a lack of "copy rotation" like the replace item from Sokomine 19:58 MTDiscord y'all wouldn't happen to be talking lazarr wouldja? 19:59 Krock perhaps 19:59 Krock applies to MTG as well 20:00 Krock btw. any idea on how I can finish the "Little Lady" level 2? I cannot fly up 20:00 Krock ayy lmao. I need to reset to start, rather than go back to the inventory 20:00 Krock s/inventory/starting screen/ 20:05 MTDiscord When I played the jam games I personally took a lot of care reading available instructions, starting from the CDB detail page, and including all the in-game stuff. Not everybody would in real gameplay, but I figured that we don't give the devs a ton of room for UX testing, so I'd give them any advantage I could. 22:01 Sokomine there's a pattern behind the screwdriver..it's just not very comprehensible. in particular not with nodes that look the same with diffrent rotations (like the often used stairs) 22:02 Sokomine i've thought about adding a screwdriver which might show all available rotations and offer them for clicking. might be doable for stairsplus nodes. might not be doable for abriatary meshes 22:05 Sokomine or perhaps just show the 6 possible groundplates when right-clicking and a N S E W for rotation around axis... 22:09 * Sokomine searches for a handy fake player for checking access with allow_metadata_inventory_* 22:13 MTDiscord My take on it is that there's no way to do a rotation tool, give the tools that Minetest has, that will make everyone happy. 22:14 MTDiscord I mean I once watched a mechanic spend a couple minutes struggling to figure out which way to turn a bolt that was facing away from him and he had to reach around something to reach the bolt. Even IRL rotations can be hard for people to reason about. 22:38 Sokomine probably true, yes 22:38 Sokomine even worse that the screwdriver has wear 22:42 MTDiscord Yeah, that's one of the reasons why in NodeCore I decided to make optic rotation free: you just right-click the thing and it changes direction. Spending a resource with non-trivial value like iron just to rotate things always irked me, and made the usability issues also become gameplay issues at the same time. 22:43 MTDiscord At least that dreaded screwdriver in certain other games doesn't wear out :-) 22:44 MTDiscord The drawback of spinning on right-click is if you forget to hold sneak, you have to do the whole "oh crap I just right-clicked, now I have to right-click a prism 11 times (or a lens 5 times) to get it back to where it should be" 23:09 MTDiscord How about rotation of a fake model before placement... now how to control it... 23:10 Sokomine oh, it's not the value of the materials for the screwdriver. on most servers it's not an issue. it's just annoying to be interrupted in the creative process by having to craft a tool that shouldn't break anew 23:16 MTDiscord I'd be tempted to say "attach the player to the node and have them use lookdir to rotate the thing" but the problem with that is that you can't express a 3-axis rotation with a 2-axis pointer with gimbal lock :-D 23:18 MTDiscord A flat cycle through all rotations is the sanest I know of so far, but making that tolerable also depends a lot on nodes being aware of their symmetries and notifying the rotation system of equivalent rotations so you can cull the loop to the minimum length possible. 23:22 MTDiscord I hate rotations 23:22 MTDiscord How about a tool that when you rightclick it changes its rotation axis and shows a weildview indicator 23:22 MTDiscord There's a couple conventions involved making 3D rotations quite hard to get right 23:31 MTDiscord One idea I had was a simple tool that always rotated the face you pointed at clockwise and you just moved around it to change the axis, but you can't always see every face of the node you want to rotate and you can't always afford to dig everything around it. 23:32 MTDiscord Another one was click the face, then move your pointer in the direction you want to "drag" that face, and you can rotate on 2 axes that way ... but to do a "roll" you'd have to rotate on one axis, then on the second, then back on the first again like a rubix cube. 23:33 MTDiscord You could combine the 2 to get arbitrary rotations but having 2 rotation functions actually makes stuff harder to use, and also tends to require use of a special tool. 23:33 MTDiscord It's all a mess no matter what you do :-) 23:34 MTDiscord An indicator could almost work, but a big problem is that in multiplayer there's no way to show an entity to only one player, so all rotation states would have to be "public" 23:35 MTDiscord Would formspec + model view + buttons work here? 23:37 MTDiscord seems highly over complicated 23:38 MTDiscord well, "preview + commit" sequence already suggests we are not on the path of simplicity... 23:39 MTDiscord fair point, but your taking rotating which supposably sucks and introducing something that sucks even more formsepcs 23:40 MTDiscord @Warr1024 what about 3 rotation options in the tool: front face, top face, right face, using 'left', 'right' and 'e+right'? 23:43 MTDiscord It might at least make the screwdriver more intuitive and efficient...