Time Nick Message 02:25 erlehmann i have made a minetest flyer! https://mister-muffin.de/p/GVQz.png 02:27 MTDiscord Ha, nodecore represent 02:27 MTDiscord Can't read that error message tho 02:28 erlehmann well i just wanted some trace 02:28 erlehmann and only had screenshotted a nodecore one 02:28 erlehmann the mineclone2 picture is clamity spawn btw, some time ago 02:28 erlehmann the moon thing is mesecraft 02:29 MTDiscord Wait, you mean to tell me thats not Minecraft? 02:29 MTDiscord That one with the nutella and tobasco... 02:29 erlehmann Warr1024 is a crima against humanity 02:29 MTDiscord nutello* 02:29 erlehmann Warr1024 joking, it is the sandwich mod 02:30 MTDiscord You can tell it's Minetest because there's a ton of food 02:30 MTDiscord actually it might be nutella but the image is so compressed I think the tail gets lost 02:30 MTDiscord Somebody should feed the MT modders 02:30 MTDiscord Also im serious, that is definitely not Mineclone2 02:30 MTDiscord Definitely there for irony 02:30 MTDiscord wait no theres a screwdriver 02:30 MTDiscord if it's not mineclone2 then they did a pretty good job overlaying the MT debugging info on it. 02:30 MTDiscord you right 02:31 MTDiscord at that level of image compression it just looks like minecraft to me 02:31 MTDiscord that image looks like celeron55's minetest video 02:32 MTDiscord it's a right dead ringer for MC until you zoom in and see MT debug data 02:32 erlehmann GreenXenith i think clamity is using some minecraft textures maybe 02:32 MTDiscord and the screwdriver 02:32 duds Is there a Mineclone channel on here? 02:32 erlehmann duds yes but you will not have much fun there: #mineclone2 02:33 duds I see 02:33 duds why not?? 02:33 MTDiscord erlehmann: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD1TVZ47xZY 02:34 erlehmann duds well, if you want approx the features of mineclone2 0.71 minus crashes & lag, check out #minelonia – but if you want mineclone2 chat, the devs have supercomputers and lurk on discord i think? 02:34 erlehmann duds like the devs are never in the #mineclone2 channel 02:34 erlehmann i meant #mineclonia btw 02:34 MTDiscord the devs don't have supercomputers 02:35 MTDiscord otherwise they'd be playing the real thing 02:35 duds ahhh ok ok 02:35 erlehmann duds if you have a bug report, http://git.minetest.land/Mineclone2/Mineclone2/issues 02:35 MTDiscord like seriously MC is the cost of three hours at a part time job 02:35 erlehmann wdym 02:36 MTDiscord In California its the cost of 2 hours :] 02:36 erlehmann oh 02:36 erlehmann i get it 02:36 duds yea but is it foss?? didn't think so 02:36 MTDiscord yes hello your ISP wants a word about that 02:36 MTDiscord it's all non-free to use the internet beyond LAN 02:36 MTDiscord tru.dat 02:36 erlehmann duds once sales start dying andit is worthless notch will release source code he said so! would notch ever lie to us? i think he also mentioned a lua api LOL 02:36 duds lmao 02:36 MTDiscord the Lua API is false 02:37 erlehmann no, the Lua API is nil 02:37 MTDiscord notch also didn't bet on it become crazy popular 02:37 MTDiscord google uields https://notch.tumblr.com/post/140146373/lua-or-java-api/amp 02:37 MTDiscord really hoping that sentence is entirely irony 02:37 MTDiscord *yields 02:37 MTDiscord idk, uields seems like a perfectly valid spelling 02:37 erlehmann Advantages of Java: 02:37 erlehmann * Very powerful, can do ANYTHING. 02:38 erlehmann WOW 02:38 erlehmann i should look into this java 02:38 MTDiscord Reflection and ASM\ 02:38 MTDiscord people underestimate what can be done with ASM and Reflection 02:38 MTDiscord wOW iTs TurINg COmpLeTe 02:38 erlehmann > The API would then let you send messages, teleport players, set blocks and probably load and save levels. 02:38 erlehmann sounds like a cheat client 02:38 MTDiscord Sounds like a game engine... 02:38 MTDiscord i mean that just sounds like already existing minetest features 02:38 duds sounds like cope 02:39 MTDiscord those whomst shout cope are coping themselves that they don't value themselves enough to work any form of paid work 02:40 duds damn... 02:40 MTDiscord either that or they lack the self esteem to even attempt fixing a problem 02:40 MTDiscord been there done that 02:41 erlehmann jordach 02:41 erlehmann how is your quake imitation going on 02:41 MTDiscord pain 02:41 MTDiscord i've scrapped using minetest's built in networking 02:42 erlehmann uh oh? 02:42 MTDiscord and instead doing some async magic 02:42 MTDiscord with LuaSockets 02:42 MTDiscord and directly interface the MT API with that instead 02:42 MTDiscord every modern game since like 2007 has had a world thread and a script thread for managing client side scripting 02:44 MTDiscord it means i can fully utilise the MT API to keep updates at 30hz (send/receive) 02:44 MTDiscord and unlock the speed at which the API steps at 02:44 MTDiscord while pushing near zero network load since visual information and CAO is no longer required to be sent 02:45 MTDiscord that and i'd have to modify the source to change a few things to make it easier for the win/linux users 02:45 MTDiscord like removing the entire multiplayer framework as that's not really needed anymore 02:48 MTDiscord in theory the main menu instead becomes a psuedo launcher in that you have the settings panel and the launch game option, which then offers a bunch of servers 14:15 DUMdum Test 14:15 sfan5 succeeded 14:16 DUMdum ok hi 14:47 independent56 Meta question - How large is a large network? How much track? https://wiki.linux-forks.de/mediawiki/index.php?title=Getting_Started&curid=1928&diff=24188&oldid=23645 14:47 independent56 Maybe i have a large network 15:22 independent56 What i really want is a nice, respectful player. a player much like me, but without being an admin, just a moderator. 15:23 independent56 Not just some guests who look around, wait minutes for the mapblocks to load, and say "bye". 15:24 independent56 "or even just **player left the game" 15:27 MTDiscord Offer a good and engaging game experience, list your server publicly and do a little advertising, and then basically just wait. About 99% of the people who check out my server and any of the small servers I see chat for are fly-by. It takes a while to get quality players. 15:28 independent56 Hmm.. i am on player ~10. 89 more to go! 15:29 MTDiscord Network effects are a big thing too. People play on servers that have other players. Get some friends to help and hang out and build stuff with you and you might draw in people during that time. Just be sure to be ready with a good first impression :-) 15:30 independent56 Is a good impresson doing what you are doing and gently chatting, or is it supervising the player from 10 nodes away? Because superivisng is all my paranoid mind does. 15:31 MTDiscord A good impression is having a game for the player to play. Don't just crowd them, give them a chance to try stuff out, but have obvious stuff to do, and also show that the server has been developed. 15:31 independent56 Like... an obvious place to build? 15:31 MTDiscord I think an organic settlement (i.e. not just a contrived and protected spawn) is helpful to suggest to a player that there's already stuff going on, and to establish a pattern of what kinds of things they can do 15:32 independent56 Volcano2 might be great, it's surrounded by rainforest and has good track connection: http://2.26.38.198:8080/#!/map/0/10/-1682/-2048 15:32 MTDiscord Players aren't necessarily looking for a blank plot to just build whatever, they can do that in SP. You want players who are going to be part of your community, so establish a community for them that they can feel a part of. 15:32 independent56 It's a bit hard to do when i am the only member. 15:33 MTDiscord Yeah, it REALLY helps to get a few friends to help out. 15:33 independent56 Oh... so they are the capital which begins the server. I wish i had people to help me. 15:34 independent56 That also explains why TA had three admins - a trinity to be gods of the server 15:34 MTDiscord I started out by making a game, published it, advertised it, got a few people intrigued by the idea. That made it a bit easier to have people I know might be interested when I started up a semi-private test server. We added more people by invitations, and eventually broadened the scope until it went public. Sort of like an IPO. 15:34 MTDiscord Trying to do this the other way around, i.e. open up a public server first, you have to go through those rougher periods while paying for hosting basically :-) 15:35 MTDiscord A big selling point for the whole thing was that I was creating a playing experience that was obviously unique. It can be a harder sell if the niche for your server is less obvious, like just a different moderation style or something. 15:36 independent56 I don't pay for hosting and use my home network. and the latency is huge. 15:36 MTDiscord Cheap hosting is to your advantage because you aren't bleeding cash and can patiently build your community at your own pace, but not having proper-hosting-class service can be a challenge. 15:37 MTDiscord If your latency is terrible then there are certain gameplay aspects like PvP and mob combat that suffer particularly and you have to consider whether it's even really worth having those if it's bad enough. 15:37 independent56 Yeah, i need a motto a bit like "Like LF but without the bamboo and poor moderation". Which communicates my niche - Trains. 15:38 MTDiscord Moderation is really hard to advertise as a feature also because (1) it's a very personal thing, moderation isn't so much objectively "good" or "bad" as there are simply factions and tribes, and (2) people are going to be skeptical anyway, and you'll probably eventually have people spreading both good and bad rumors about you anyway. 15:42 independent56 I guess i will just wait around whilst i develop a niche. Thanks for helping. 16:07 erlehmann independent56 try playing on other servers if you want community? 16:08 independent56 I want community on my server. It just seems shabby to go onto other servers and say "look, i like the fact you're here and are a perfect member of the community. please come to my server instead." 16:08 independent56 "I just want you to make my server better" 16:10 erlehmann independent56 why do you want ppl on *your* server in the first place 16:11 independent56 Thats' the point of multiplayer servers 16:13 specing I really wish for a wacky map server 16:13 erlehmann independent56 i mean what is it that other servers lack? 16:13 erlehmann independent56 ok why should I play on your server instead of say on clamity or inside the box or meseclams or your-land.de 16:13 erlehmann i don't know 16:13 erlehmann wacky? 16:13 erlehmann specing clamity not wacky enough for you? 16:13 specing you know, oceans deeper than 50 nodes, mountains higher than 250 nodes 16:13 specing erlehmann: a bit too wacky, at least the part with floating sponges 16:14 erlehmann the sponge sky is only at spawn anyway 16:14 independent56 erlehmann, They deny me the right to stay, keeping me only as tenants, who can evict me anytime. 16:14 erlehmann and it is easily possible to flood spawn regardless 16:14 erlehmann specing "i wan't wacky" "here" "oh no that is WAY TOO CURSED" 16:14 independent56 erlehmann Also, People will join my server because it needs moderators, and you could be a moderator of a server someone else pays for. 16:14 specing independent56: imagine getting banned from clamity 16:14 erlehmann specing try meseclams then 16:15 erlehmann specing i think the only person that was banned used a coordinate exploit and blew up almost every base on the server except one? 16:15 erlehmann i doubt independent56 would be able to do that tbh 16:16 erlehmann like, on a technical level 16:16 specing independent56: but if you have moderators, that means you are prepared to evict people 16:16 erlehmann what specing says 16:16 specing erlehmann: oh, so it is possible lol 16:16 erlehmann specing no the known coord exploits are fixed of course 16:16 erlehmann specing well i am not sure maybe that person actually trolled 16:17 erlehmann i only heard rumors that darkmemer was banned 16:17 erlehmann maybe it is not true 16:17 erlehmann i mean jordan4ibanez was not banned when i told him about the crashmachine and sent him a patch to fix it and he repeatedly pressed the crash button to crash the server and bragged about it on youtube 16:17 independent56 erlehmann I do not like being part of a community who hates me and evicts me. I am selfish in this argument. 16:17 erlehmann and that's pretty toxic 16:17 specing I also found a pretty bad bug in 5.3.0 that allowed me to take other people's armors 16:18 erlehmann specing safe to say you are not the only person who has found it lol 16:18 erlehmann there are worse bugs in 5.3.0 ;) 16:18 specing erlehmann: I can imagine yeah 16:19 erlehmann independent56 i doubt that clamity would evict you. 16:19 erlehmann specing have you tried meseclams? mesecraft is a pretty cool game 16:19 erlehmann you can build portals to moon and mars 16:19 specing erlehmann: I don't think so 16:19 independent56 erlehmann, I cannot independently configure, enable mods, and use worldedit on that server. only in 56i-server can i actually be admin 16:20 erlehmann specing try it. it is entirely unlike minecraft. like, you have a nethor, but you can find cyberdemons there. 16:20 erlehmann i think 16:20 specing exploring servers is tedius work, I have to figure out a new memorable password only to learn that the rules are incompatible with me 16:20 erlehmann independent56 singleplayer it is then. 16:20 specing and I usually only explore a server if there's 5+ players in it 16:20 independent56 Yeah, but i want people to play with me 16:21 independent56 My choice was because i wanted to be admin, and build stuff for other players. 16:21 erlehmann specing use "pwgen 10" or so and a password generator. i recommend pass, but there are others: https://www.passwordstore.org/ 16:21 erlehmann My choice was because i wanted to be admin, and build stuff for other players. 16:21 erlehmann independent56 why would anyone ELSE want YOU to be admin? 16:22 independent56 exactly 16:22 independent56 i had to make my own server 16:22 erlehmann independent56 singleplayer is it then 16:22 erlehmann singleplayer on your server 16:22 independent56 i want to play with other players 16:22 erlehmann independent56 there is only one way forward, make everyone on your server admin 16:22 independent56 XD 16:22 erlehmann only that way you achieve true anarchy 16:22 erlehmann i mean it 16:22 specing haha if I had a server I probably wouldnt want independent56 as an admin :P 16:23 erlehmann yeah me true 16:23 erlehmann too 16:23 erlehmann sry 16:23 independent56 Yeah, i would grant myself worldedit and crash the server building a huge hourse 16:23 independent56 or "/shutdown" 16:23 specing I'm pretty sure I'd either have no worldedit 16:23 erlehmann independent56 if there was another copy of you named independent57 why would that person join your server? 16:23 specing or I'd fix it so it's usable by players without crashing the server 16:23 erlehmann if that person could not be admin 16:23 specing and then everyone would have it 16:23 erlehmann independent56 if you want to build arbitrary stuff join a creative server 16:23 independent56 erlehmann Because we have to share everything, so we might as well share the server 16:24 MTDiscord independent, if you can't get along with the operators of any other servers what makes you think that you'll get along with players on your server? 16:24 MTDiscord You being in a position of power over them instead of the other way around isn't necessarily going to fix fundamental disagreements 16:25 MTDiscord Whether they kick you off their server or you kick them off yours, it doesn't change the fact that you won't be playing together anymore. 16:25 independent56 Hmm... 16:25 MTDiscord Getting along with other people is hard and annoying and very often it sucks, but I guess we have to do it to have the things we want, because the things we want always include other people in some capacity :-| 16:26 MTDiscord You can encourage people to visit your server if it offers unique stuff...custom features no other server can just download from CDB or the forum 16:26 erlehmann what Warr1024 says 16:26 erlehmann it takes a lot to not get along with any admin 16:26 erlehmann i mean 16:26 erlehmann recently on clamity clamork came and spawned a bunch of vindicators and vexes 16:27 erlehmann those killed another player, a good friend of mine 16:27 erlehmann she had a sword named “divine intervention” 16:27 erlehmann i picked it up and 16:27 erlehmann clamork was killed by me using divine intervention 16:27 erlehmann i did not get banned for that 16:27 erlehmann i mean he had it coming :D 16:27 MTDiscord That's only true if the admin/staff is able to behave neutrally on their server, but on my servers staff expresses bias/agendas and is not always fair to all players 16:28 specing Why would you get banned for killing on an anarchy server? 16:28 erlehmann independent56 would you ban me for killing an admin or mod just because i feel like it? 16:28 independent56 Wow.... But some admins are just short-tempered, like gpcf. 16:28 MTDiscord many servers* 16:28 independent56 erlehmann, yes... the kill command needs a priv i need to trust you with 16:28 erlehmann specing i think most servers might ban users if they start killing admins 16:29 specing erlehmann: most servers have a be nice / no PvP without conset 16:29 specing consent* 16:29 erlehmann specing if you want to make sure you get admins or mods during flybys they make of users, just enable killaura 16:29 specing this applies to players and admins alike 16:29 erlehmann that way they can not sneak up on you 16:29 erlehmann without getting killed 16:30 specing I think that disagree with my view of an admin should be 16:30 erlehmann independent56 i do not mean using kill command 16:30 specing And admin should be someone to enforce the rules and not a higher class of players 16:30 specing *An admin should be someone to enforce the rules and not a higher class of players 16:31 erlehmann specing well on clamity they sometimes just look what ppl build 16:31 erlehmann they don't really interfere 16:31 independent56 PVP is disabled, so it is a hack. erlehmann 16:31 erlehmann in this case clamork was there for debugging a bunch of nodes 16:31 erlehmann independent56 there are still ways to kill players with pvp disabled believe me 16:31 specing That's fine, but they shouldn't use admin powers for that 16:31 erlehmann ind you won't ever see it coming 16:31 MTDiscord If staff actually bans you just for trying to kill staff members then that server should be avoided at all costs...this is exactly what I just said...staff in my eyes is NOT any better than regular players, they just have more responsibilities 16:31 erlehmann specing well usually clamork just spams chickens and leaves lol 16:31 specing i.e. no bypassing locked doors, no flying over obtacles (unless rules permit players flying) 16:32 independent56 erlehmann, Oh yeah, deathtraps and lava. It all depends on the rules. if they say "no death", it's a ban. 16:33 erlehmann IhrFussel well i was on one server and another player told me flying is not allowed. and i was like "i read the somewhat long rules and there is nothing in the rules about it not being allowed and besides, you are flying too" and then that player was like "yeah but i have PRIVILEGES", so i avoided that server, bc obv it was another higher class of player :/ 16:34 erlehmann independent56 if you think that ppl should be banned for building death traps, why should ANYONE play on your server? 16:35 independent56 erlehmann, LF does that, and they have a loyal playerbase. one i was part of. 16:35 erlehmann i once built a death trap near clamity spawn, a cute house with a lot of tnt under it. open the trapped chest, all doors close and the house explodes. i put a sign in front of it "do not steal my diamonds". 16:35 erlehmann so of course someone managed to set it off 16:35 erlehmann and then rebuilt it, tnt and all lol 16:35 erlehmann and later someone else set it off 16:35 erlehmann it was just too funny :D 16:36 erlehmann ok well 16:36 erlehmann it wasn't really a lot of tnt 16:36 MTDiscord I wasn't trying to say that pissing off an admin is necessarily a high bar to cross, but in the event that the admins really ARE that arbitrary, they aren't likely to have built a community you'd miss being a part of anyway. 16:36 erlehmann just enough to blow up the house 16:36 erlehmann yeah what Warr1024 says 16:36 erlehmann independent56 for what reasons do you not get along with other admins? 16:36 erlehmann btw clamork is generally nice, but spamming vexes and vindicators is an asshole move 16:37 MTDiscord erlehmann, If that player was no staff member then I wouldn't care much what they have to tell me...if the rules don't mention a certain thing and also no staff member talks to me about it then I see no rule violated 16:37 specing LF doesen't seem to have any heavy rules 16:37 independent56 I just dont... Moderators generally end up against me... like oneplayer (username) who spoiled TA for me. 16:37 specing also, LF is the only non-anarchy server with totally unrestricted CSM restrictions 16:38 specing that I found 16:38 erlehmann IhrFussel it was a staff member but "it does not violate any of your rules" was apparently not enough 16:38 MTDiscord I'm completely against "implied rules" btw...I mean rules that are not written anywhere but still apply 16:38 erlehmann IhrFussel i was just threatened with ban for doing the same that player did, flying 16:38 MTDiscord If you find that you have problems with a lot of people then you should probably consider the common factor between those failed relationships, at least in part because that factor will be with you in your other ventures like trying to start your own server. 16:39 erlehmann also, LF is the only non-anarchy server with totally unrestricted CSM restrictions 16:39 erlehmann specing, what do you mean CSM restrictions? they have anticheat turned off? 16:39 specing erlehmann: yeah, the CSM flags are all turned off 16:39 specing it's not anticheat 16:39 erlehmann If you find that you have problems with a lot of people then you should probably consider the common factor between those failed relationships, 16:39 erlehmann Warr1024 speaks wise words 16:39 erlehmann specing just use waspsaliva and ignore what the server says 16:40 MTDiscord The most vague rule I ever saw on a server was "use common sense" this rule can mean anything really, it doesn't help me too much as player who wants to know what exactly is allowed and what's not 16:40 MTDiscord As far as unwritten rules go, every server has some. Stuff like having "don't be an ass in chat" without specifying exactly what "ass" means here, assuming everyone should already know. In those cases, the proper way to handle the ambiguity is probably to warn first, so that player have a chance to get it right at least once before getting slapped with a ban. 16:40 specing erlehmann: CSMRestrictionFlags 16:40 erlehmann in my opinion, every case in which cheating makes the game less fun for other players, you are mostly cheating yourself out of fun 16:40 erlehmann like 16:40 specing erlehmann: I have my own client that partially ignores it 16:40 erlehmann why would anyone cheat on "inside the box" or CTF 16:40 erlehmann the fun of it is to solve the challenge yourself 16:40 specing erlehmann: I said that I will rebase on ws/dfc one day, but that day is not today 16:41 Krock because they're low-brainers who need assistance to win 16:41 erlehmann specing post a link here please 16:41 Krock that's why 16:41 erlehmann Krock yeah but consider that on inside the box there are not even other players for the puzzle 16:41 erlehmann Krock so you literally can only cheat yourself 16:41 specing erlehmann: not here 16:41 Krock it's totally pointless yeah 16:42 erlehmann specing why 16:42 MTDiscord My policy on how I handle cheat clients on my server is that I join in with other players who are online at the time in collectively laughing at them until they die of embarrassment. 16:42 specing erlehmann: discord 16:42 erlehmann specing what is the problem with discord? 16:42 erlehmann specing you can not post links on irc because of discord? 16:43 specing I don't like it, + https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord + https://dev.to/daksh777/why-i-quit-using-discord-34b + https://sneak.berlin/20200220/discord-is-not-an-acceptable-choice-for-free-software-projects/ 16:43 erlehmann oh right 16:43 erlehmann discord sucks 16:43 MTDiscord Don't confuse using discord with trusting it. 16:43 MTDiscord I mean, we use GitHub but we don't really trust it either. 16:43 erlehmann you trust a person or a thing if they can undermine your security model 16:43 erlehmann evidently 16:44 specing I'm boycotting GitHub as well 16:44 erlehmann github once erroneously hellbanned me 16:44 erlehmann i stopped using it 16:44 specing it's why I started CSMing, couldn't fix anything serverside as it was all on GitHub 16:44 MTDiscord Heh, usually I hear security models defined in terms of trust rather than the other way around, but that works. 16:44 erlehmann i mean wtf 16:44 specing now I have 6000 LoC in CSMs 16:45 erlehmann specing ever consider contributing to waspsaliva? 16:45 erlehmann cora nice 16:45 specing erlehmann: I did, and I will. Just need to rebase 16:45 specing yes, cora nice 16:45 specing Well, she might not like the license :P 16:45 erlehmann what is it 16:45 specing I have affero GPL tentacles ;P 16:45 erlehmann well talk to her about it 16:46 specing yeah, it'll come eventually. Need to rebase first 16:46 erlehmann i do not use waspsaliva much, i mostly usey fly and noclip for building and debugging stuff on other ppls servers and you can get that via priv override easily 16:47 specing waspsaliva is also interesting as its not on GitHub 16:47 erlehmann but it has an impressive amount of features 16:47 erlehmann specing did you see the heart-shaped nether portals on clamity? they are almost all placed by cora using a CSM :) 16:47 erlehmann and the best thing 16:48 erlehmann they take about the same amount of obsidian as the original nether prtal 16:50 specing nah, hadnt 16:50 specing I'm also experimenting with CSM worldediting 16:50 specing but got sidetracked with writing a CSM replacement for pipeworks 16:50 erlehmann what 16:50 erlehmann specing play more on clamity, it needs more players like you 16:51 erlehmann ppl who make their own cheat clients also often help fix cheats 16:51 specing I wouldn't call my client a cheat client 16:51 specing It's more an "enhanced player experience" client 16:51 specing even though there's substantial overlap 16:51 erlehmann specing "cheat client" is shorthand for "non-vanilla" 16:52 erlehmann i.e. every dev version is technically a cheat client 16:52 specing if you ask the server owners, perhaps 16:52 MTDiscord I mean, the official client is a "cheat client" too :-) 16:53 MTDiscord It took like 2 years to get a PR merged just to make it possible to make certain cheats off by default :-/ 16:53 erlehmann Warr1024 which ones? 16:54 erlehmann i mean as long as you can dupe using vanilla client it probably is lol 16:54 erlehmann and that's possible right now 16:54 MTDiscord Like the developer tools. 16:55 erlehmann (the joke is that duping happens on the server) 16:55 MTDiscord Minecraft has that problem too in vanilla, but at least mod for MC have generally had the ability to distinguish between players and developers. 16:55 MTDiscord I'm actually not all that familiar with duping in MT. 16:56 MTDiscord Is it caused by bugs in the game code, or are there engine problems that games would have to guard against? 16:56 MTDiscord I've had duping bugs in my own game but they've always been my own fault, not the engine's, so far. 16:57 erlehmann Warr1024 every dupe bug is either an engine problem with not keeping track of items correctly or bugs in lua mods, mostly in nodes that handle inventories 16:57 erlehmann for example, i think there was a dupe in moreblocks relating to wool 16:57 erlehmann like don't count on me understanding it, i just inferred it from the commits 16:57 erlehmann but i think microblocks were in the wool group 16:58 erlehmann so you could make colored wool with them 16:58 erlehmann and then cut it up again maybe to get more microblocks? 16:58 erlehmann something like that 16:59 erlehmann i discovered a similar bug for wood 16:59 erlehmann if wood microblocks are still in the wood group, you can make 8 times the amount of charcoal ^^ 16:59 erlehmann just by cutting them up 16:59 erlehmann oven does not care 17:00 erlehmann Warr1024 there is at least one engine bug in minetest that allows duping stuff but i am not telling bc i have not figured out how to fix it. 17:00 erlehmann and also if you do it, admin will notice 17:00 erlehmann so it is not particularly useful 17:01 MTDiscord Fuel abuse is the oldest trick in minetest games 17:01 erlehmann to cheat, i mean 17:01 erlehmann Jonathon please tell me about more historical bugs 17:01 MTDiscord Heck, digtron even promotes it 17:01 erlehmann i love hearing that stuff 17:01 erlehmann what does digtron do? 17:02 MTDiscord It literrally tells you to use coal blocks as you will get more fuel than using them individually 17:03 MTDiscord I'm more interested in preventing or guarding against bugs than I am in exploiting them. I pretty much don't play on other servers, like 100% of my MT time is working on my game. 17:03 erlehmann but that is a mechanic actually 17:04 erlehmann Jonathon mineclone2/mineclonia also has that. coal block crafted from 9 coal is as good as 10 coal. 17:04 erlehmann Warr1024 i like that nodecore is so weird, but i never got into the whole explore the mechanics thing. 17:04 MTDiscord Mineclone2 is just mtg under the hood that has been tweaked over time 17:04 MTDiscord So its not suprising 17:05 specing erlehmann | if wood microblocks are still in the wood group, you can make 8 times the amount of charcoal ^^ 17:05 specing nice, but fairly useless as far as cheating goes 17:05 specing wood is pretty cheap 17:05 MTDiscord Mineclone2: mtg minecraft style and runs worse 17:06 erlehmann Jonathon have you tried mesecraft? 17:06 erlehmann it pretty neat 17:06 erlehmann but a bit buggy 17:06 erlehmann also fuck those giant hornets 17:06 erlehmann but like 17:06 erlehmann mesecraft has really neat details 17:06 MTDiscord No, but ive seen it, just a mtg plus mods 17:06 erlehmann well it is the interaction that makes it 17:07 erlehmann it is a really good selection of mods 17:07 MTDiscord Does it have good glue? 17:07 erlehmann to make sticky pistons you mean? 17:07 erlehmann it just has technic 17:07 erlehmann on the meseclams server someone discovered that technic means nuclear meltdowns are possible 17:07 MTDiscord No, is the mod soup glued together well? 17:08 erlehmann there is a spire of chernobylite at spawn now 17:08 MTDiscord Pretty much the only dupe bugs I've run into were either a simple bug in the code, or a crash bug where I tried to move something, and it was added to the destination but crashed before it could be removed from the source. 17:08 erlehmann bc someone (*cough* clamork i think) built some tower and did a core meltdown on top of it 17:08 MTDiscord Crashes mid-move always end up causing inconsistencies either way, and item deletion is just as bad as duplication for me. 17:09 erlehmann Warr1024 maybe learn how to make atomic transactions 17:09 MTDiscord I would kind of like to see a game which pulls elements from classic Minetest (like Mese, Dungeon Masters, and Orrkies [however you spell it])..maybe I'll try to work that into a future game idea 17:09 MTDiscord and rats, can't forget the rats 17:09 MTDiscord Heh, if MT was ACID internally then that would simplify things so much. 17:10 MTDiscord Hell, it's even built on top of ACID databases like sqlite and pgsql, but then everything is cached in memory and written back async... 17:10 MTDiscord The more I work on a game without mobs the more I like it. 17:10 MTDiscord Turns out the best monsters are nodes. 17:12 MTDiscord maybe the true monsters were the friends we made along the way 17:13 MTDiscord That works too. Most disasters the players in NodeCore encounter are self-created. 17:13 MTDiscord Sadly my suggestion for a "Player vs Self" tag in CDB was rejected. 17:14 MTDiscord It's a game with strong Player vs. Player elements, just no Player vs. Other Player ones. 17:45 independent56 Is there like some etiquete on how many repies to a forum post i can make with nobody else replying? 17:45 independent56 I'm sure 10 replies is regarded as crappy behaviour 17:47 MTDiscord I think normally you just balance your willingness to talk into an empty room against your own sense of embarrassment? 17:48 MTDiscord That's my system anyway. A good heuristic is that I like to stop before I scroll the last non-me messages off the top of a screen so I feel like I'm still having a conversation. 17:48 independent56 haha 18:39 independent56 Hello. I am getting £150 for my birthday, because i will be 15. And my grandmother is slightly crazy. I am jus wondering whether to spend it on homelab equipment, Or a VPS for a year. 18:40 independent56 I like control, but i also like network speed and power 18:41 Krock https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9c/0f/26/9c0f2685ea6eebb0babc98450600d68a.jpg 18:45 independent56 This is a genuine question, asking for the opinion of people with more experience then me. 18:46 sfan5 you'll value permanent things more than temporary ones 18:46 sfan5 is my take 18:46 independent56 aye, thanks 18:50 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/lOdlojr This is the result of my family throwing obsolete/unwanted tech at me. 18:57 Krock for hobbyist tasks, use hobbyist hardware 18:57 Krock for professional work, use professional hardware or hobbyist when time's short 18:58 Krock put the laptops to some use I guess, but make sure they're properly secured to not open up access from outside to your network 19:01 independent56 Ah yes... if only they didn't have fatal flaws. one has a locked bios i have been unable to hack into, another has a broken bios, on ehas a broken screen, the red one can't use wifi, the thicc one can't do shit, one can't even use ehternet 19:01 specing sell them 19:01 specing and buy proper stuff 19:01 independent56 cool idea! 19:02 independent56 But how should i sell them? "regular"? "in need of maintanace"? "shit, try finding spare parts"? 19:02 independent56 and how much would one cost at maximum? £50? 19:02 specing idk about what you have because imgur's cert expired 2 months ago 19:02 specing so I just assume you got cool new gadgets 19:03 specing where 'cool' means cool for the masses and utterly useless otherwise 19:04 independent56 https://i.imgur.com/fJcKXbL.jpeg 19:04 independent56 try this 19:04 sfan5 imgur's cert did not expire 2 months ago, I'd be concerned about what your ISP is doing to your connection 19:04 MTDiscord "you'll value permanent things more than temporary ones" ... sounds like a vote for "neither" :-) 19:05 MTDiscord Also, is that pringles can a wifi antenna reflector or just a literal pringles can? 19:05 independent56 i mean, i can probably get an odd £150 from the stack, maybe £200 if i'm lucky. That can be spent on dedicated server hardware... my god i'm going to have to use a spreadsheet (not that i'm scared or anything, just that i like spreadsheets and get to use them)! 19:06 independent56 Just a pringles can. i love pringles. it's just that mum refrains from buying them, and they are getting expensive. beck in december they were £1.5. now they're £3.5 19:06 specing sfan5: yeah, something fishy probably 19:06 specing sfan5: the cert expired 1year 2mo ago 19:07 MTDiscord Dayum. I get the store-bought knock-off pringles, they're like $1 a can 19:07 specing and was a selfsigned one 19:07 independent56 i dont like the knockoffs, something about "brand quality" 19:07 MTDiscord specing: I was wondering why you seemed so paranoid earlier, talking about how you didn't trust discord or github ... now you don't seem paranoid enough. 19:07 specing How so? Ofc I didnt accept the cert 19:08 MTDiscord no I mean just in general 19:08 specing And I'm not paranoid 19:08 specing And I didn't say that I don't trust them 19:08 MTDiscord haha, I mean, that's what I'm saying :-D 19:08 specing I said that I don't like it, and that I don't use it 19:08 * specing scrolls up to verify 19:08 MTDiscord Yeah, I don't remember the exact wording either. 19:09 MTDiscord Anyway, TLS interception is super shady for an ISP or something to be doing to you 19:09 specing exactly that is what I said 19:09 specing don't use -> boycott 19:10 specing you probably got confused as I linked to other people's blogs 19:10 MTDiscord coulbe 19:10 specing I've never used Discord, so I don't have *all* the ammo to argue against using it 19:10 specing must be my unique ability to recognise bad services from the start 19:11 MTDiscord The only reason I use it is because of other people who use it. I don't think there's any real compelling reason to prefer the technology itself, and the whole proprietary thing is pretty gross. 19:12 MTDiscord I think maybe a couple years ago it had a usability edge over Matrix or IRC on mobile but now I think the other platforms have had a chance to catch up so there are options that make them mobile-friendly. 19:14 specing Ok, so why are you still using Discord? 19:14 specing At least for this channel 19:16 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/A7WmzO9 19:16 independent56 rate my spreadsheet B-) 19:22 MTDiscord Inertia 19:26 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/3tTXoMF 19:26 independent56 is £400 too high? 19:29 independent56 I'm just wondering... what use do the people have for old, broken computers? 19:34 erlehmann independent56 wait if you are 14 year old it all makes sense, the not getting along and wanting power and all that 19:34 erlehmann independent56 i suggest to play on clamity a bit to get along with people, seriously 19:34 erlehmann independent56 i doubt you will regret it 19:34 independent56 Ok... 19:35 erlehmann independent56 if it is too unstructured for you, try your-land.de 19:35 erlehmann they have elections for mayor and land plots 19:35 erlehmann and A LOT of cities 19:35 erlehmann compared to other servers 19:35 erlehmann and mean enemies named mimics 19:35 erlehmann that can pretend to be any block 19:35 erlehmann so at one point i saw a grass texture moving lol 19:35 erlehmann and yep, it was a mimic 19:35 erlehmann shortly afterwards it changed into a dirt-with-grass block 19:36 erlehmann and the dirt attacked me 19:36 erlehmann :D 19:39 independent56 hmm 19:39 independent56 i'll give it a try, (with stress on the full stop/period) 20:01 independent56 All this homelab stuff is complex server hardware stuff. researching is hard. should i give in an make a small rasberry array, with like 10 PIs? 20:02 independent56 (i mean, is it a good idea?) 20:08 MTDiscord pis are good for working with physical hardware. for software/computer projects, not so much 20:08 MTDiscord unless you want to build a cheap cluster or something 20:10 Hawk777 Seems like a good way to find yourself painted into a corner when you want to run one program that needs a lot of resources (RAM, CPU power, etc.) and you have enough resources in aggregate, but not on any one machine. 20:11 independent56 Yeah, a small array, to harness the power of multiple pis. Homelabbing with proper hardware seems to be a bit complex, with so many seperate components. 20:15 Hawk777 Well, but what if you want to run a program that needs just a bit more CPU than a Pi has? If you buy 10 Pis, you’re out of luck. If you took that money and bought one bigger computer, you could still run it. 20:16 MTDiscord to clarify, "unless you want to build a cheap cluster or something" im referring to having a test environment to learn cluster computing, not to actually use it for anything serious 20:18 MTDiscord mainly because there cheaper than buying old business machines, more power efficient, and more space efficient 20:20 independent56 oh 20:20 independent56 What if i cluster old desktops like some crappy homelab? 20:21 independent56 stack them on top of each other like jenga XD 20:22 specing raspberry pis aren't good for working with physical hardware 20:23 specing they lack the IO 20:23 specing they should be viewed as consumer computers without a screen attached. Think as a phone/tablet motherboard 20:28 independent56 oh 20:28 independent56 aha yeag 20:30 independent56 why is this so cheap? Is it effectively a rasberry pi? https://www.ebay.com/itm/114874948838?hash=item1abf149ce6:g:MpsAAOSw4S1g3j~~ 20:32 independent56 oh wait shipping is $50 20:38 specing look into Olimex boards for proper embedded 20:39 specing raspberri pis dont even have full schematics published last I checked 20:40 MTDiscord :thonking: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/schematics/README.md 20:55 specing Jonathon you should have checked them before ":thonking:" 20:55 specing They are only schematics for connectors 20:56 specing no schematics for processor or memory 20:56 specing and no boardviews 20:58 MTDiscord pis aren't really like an eval board for a microcontroller that you'd later get in cheaper solderable form for production use; they're basically a unit as they are 20:58 MTDiscord I like them for one-off stuff, and stuff that's closer to computer than microcontroller stuff, of course 20:59 specing they are consumer hardware 20:59 MTDiscord They've got a few GPIOs for micrcontrollery sorts of things but from what I can tell they're not great, and I think they want you to buy accessories to do stuff like that 20:59 specing consumer hardware doesen't have docs 20:59 specing (unless they got leaked, like in the case of my thinkpad) 20:59 MTDiscord They've got enough specs that you get the pin-outs of the stuff they provide pins for, and physical dimensions so you can CAD up custom cases and such, but yeah, that's about all. 21:02 specing Now compare that to Olimex boards, where you get the full schematics AND the actuall CAD files used to make these 21:02 specing and the whole development history in a git repo 21:03 specing and if you open olimex.com, you'll see the whole website is oriented towards engineers 21:04 specing lots of text, few images 21:04 specing unlike the rpi foundation one, which is 100% a consumer website 21:04 specing no data, just videos and pictures 21:05 specing Now, I hope my rant here helped prevent at least one person from getting scammed by the rpi foundation 21:06 specing unless you wanted a consumer arm computer, in which case... welp 21:27 sfan5 independent56: (modern) Pentium CPUs are pretty weak compared to mid-range x86 stuff people usually have but it should beat an ARM board any day 21:28 independent56 hmm yeah. My main struggle now with finding homelab hardware is converting from freedom currency to british currency ($ --> £) 21:28 specing_ not a Cavium ThunderX ARM board, no 21:29 sfan5 check ebay.co.uk instead? 21:40 independent56 Oh god! yeah! XD 21:47 independent56 I forgot big companies localise with different TLDs. not like gb.ebay.com, or us.ebay.com 22:34 independent56 I have just realised how fun window shopping is with wish. but i would never buy from them. goodnight 22:35 independent56 yeah... i saw a sata cable for sale, got onto ebay, found one, and put it onto the spreadsheet. 22:36 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/BfAaPfJ Which looks a lot more like this now